I agree with this. I think such an effect would pop the clones instantly. Potentially not even stopping the memory transfer.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The brain and the mind. In your example, the memory transfer process is a file you're looking to transfer, and the Rune blocking the memory transfer is like taking an axe to the cord.
If the brain is a computer, then there are many things running at the same time as the memory transfer, and taking an axe to the cord might block the memory transfer, but it'll also do a bunch of stuff to all of the other ongoing processes in the brain.
Which is why I said that, as per the QMs ruling about genjutsu, you'd need to know about the mind to safely identify the memory transfer process, isolate it from everything else, and delete/block it without also impacting a dozen other related mental processes.
I think the phrase "as far as we know" is doing some very heavy lifting in your sentence. Genjutsu-related stress might not pass onto Prime until after the SC is popped (as seen in Naruto v Itachi), but the chakravores were able to drain Prime through their Shadow Clones. This implies there is far more nuance at play than it first seems.
That said, regarding THing, specifically, I've already acknowledged that there could be an argument for a different skill to be used as narrative grounding, in place of genjutsu --though the ones I suggested were Medknow or Mednin.
However, given that we haven't received a WOG about any stat allowing mental effects with runes/seals other than genjutsu, I'm going to stick with genjutsu.
As I've said previously, we'll need a second WOG or ruling to either countermand or alter the previous WOG.
EDIT: ninja'd in part by @Shrooms and @Sir Stompy
And a briefer one, consisting largely of "no". Shadow Clone is widely considered suicidal to hack and the QMs are firm on not poking it unduly.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Very much agreed, on the whole. Itachi is rumored to have made Tweaks to SC with his own THing, but that would likely demand that Hazou raise his THing far beyond the meager 40 that we have it slotted for --let alone its current level of 10. This would be disastrous for any future build we plan for Hazou, and I'm still trying to keep the playerbase focused on raising combat stats to a decent level, without being distracted by shinies.
Rough plan, looking for feedback.
[X] Action Plan: Work Together Or Die Alone.
Wordcount:< 299
Duration: travel time + a few hours.
[X] Action Plan: Work Together Or Die Alone.
Wordcount:
Duration: travel time + a few hours.
- Optimise all with uplift.
- Setup
- Attempt to summon Cannai
- Prepare various deadman triggers
- Give PS notes+substrate to Cannai.
- If we don't make regular check-ins(or seem coerced), share it according to your judgement.
- Give PS notes+substrate to Kei. She can set another deadman without telling us the details.
- All deadman switchs should have a way to disable them after a month or two.
- Give PS notes+substrate to Cannai.
- Send a message to Oro
- Prefabricate and store 10k units of substrate.
- Please treat Gamahebigai as comfortably and respectfully as possible.
- Meet with Oro in Rice.
- Mari and Hazou('s SCs) meet Oro, everyone else stays a few hours away.
- Hazo does the talking.
- Attitude/Tone: respectful peer. "we're both her to save the the world, let's get down to business".
- Ask for a quick sitrep: what's the condition of Leaf, Akatsuki, and Amity?
- Outline our relevant capabilities(Force Dome, Iron Earth, RER2.0, Ninja Radar, Air Leadener, Noburi, Cannai?), invite Oro to do the same.
- Ninja Radar will leave an active rune behind, so useing them isn't costless.
- Do NOT disclose any temporal runes.
- We have the means to secure Leaf's support and to defend Leaf against siege. Let's join up with Leaf and get this done.
- If Oro refuses Leaf's help, hear him out.
- If he refuses to believe Leaf will work with us, reveal Naruto's secret Orders.
- Mari looks out for false/misleading explanations.
- If Orochimaru won't be honest or can't convince Hazopilot that excluding Leaf is a strategic necessity: Insist on their help as a condition of Uplift's assistance.
- Our BATNA is to let him try solo and hopefully kill Sasori. If he fails, we'll rejoin Leaf and attack.
- If Oro refuses Leaf's help, hear him out.
- Default plan: Essieclone/Boss rush, possibly preceded by massive RER2.0 bombardment.
- Do we have the stealth capabilities to set up for RER2.0?
- Mari and Hazou('s SCs) meet Oro, everyone else stays a few hours away.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Get Kei to learn TH and mess with it since she's the expert :^)
FS Tweaking bonus + chakra pool effect buff, maybe she too can cook someday
Hazou will only be able to teach 1 student at a time as a side project, and I think it should be Noburi first.
It turns out the answer to "how do we make Mednin... useful?" is TH, Noburi's combat options are all jutsu, and we have notes making it nearly free up to 30.
This is fair, and "the effect instantly pops the clones" is one of the failure modes I was considering when I said that particular approach might not work - it was an example, not an idea I thought was particularly likely to actually work. Still, I'll note that I was not particularly surprised that the chakravores could drain through clones; given that SC has a range limit and can instantly return chakra to Prime when popped, it seemed fairly clear that there was an ongoing link of some kind, but we don't have any reason to think that link interacts with the brain except during memory transfer. It might well still connect to the brain even outside memory transfer, but we don't have reason to think it's doing much of anything that would cause problems if it were suddenly severed.
This may be part of why we're disagreeing. I'm not modelling the memory transfer as being a process running in the brain at all; I've been thinking of it as a function that the Shadow Clone Technique activates when a clone is popped, such that if that process is interrupted before the memories can reach Prime's brain, there will be no effect on Prime. To expand, my model is:
- Shadow Clone pops.
- The memory-transfer function of the Shadow Clone technique activates, as a chakra-based process during or immediately after the destruction of the clone's chakra envelope.
- Key assumption: Shadow Clone memories are stored locally. That is, whatever system contains the memories of an SC while it's active is physically located in and only in the body of the SC.
- I think this is a reasonable default assumption, but I grant that the technique could work differently - there could be some kind of external storage which is only uploaded to Prime's brain when the clone pops, but is updated continuously while the clone is active, for example.
- Key assumption: Shadow Clone memories are stored locally. That is, whatever system contains the memories of an SC while it's active is physically located in and only in the body of the SC.
- The memories are transmitted, carried in some way by chakra, to a component of the Shadow Clone technique located at Prime's body.
- Possibly the same component that permits Prime to know how many clones they have active and dismiss them at will.
- The memories are added to Prime's, likely by immediate alteration of the brain to fit.
The last stage is the only one where Prime's brain is involved, so as long as you interfere with an earlier step, the technique should never have reason to interface with Prime's brain at all. As far as Prime's brain is concerned, it's in exactly the same state as it was five minutes before when the clone was active, i.e. not expecting a memory transfer from the clone.
How does your model, or your interpretation of it, differ from the above?
Rihaku
The Internet
I think Minatosealing is likely to be an extremely effective combat stat with even moderate research, possibly superior to even biosealing if Hazou looks in the right directions. Just look at its namesake, after all!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It passes through his internal chakra system on the way to the barrel.
Leaf will respond by saying something like "Holy crap, that missing-nin just walked up. What an idiot. Okay, what date would be good for a public execution… can everyone make the 12th?"
More relevantly is how Naruto will respond, and you have enough information to judge that yourself. Likewise for Orochimaru.
The message was received at the end of the sealing research.
- Location
- Texas
Ah, the age old "does sealing use chakra or the Out?" debacle
This debacle can likely be put to rest. Permanent seal effects don't use chakra (though there may be small amounts at the time of creation), temporary seal effects use chakra. I don't think any of our seal or rune effects are permanent, so.... all chakra based for us. This does theoretically mean that in a zone of zero chakra, even explosive seals will not work, but good luck making such a zone.
TH in the mid-40s will be plenty for Minatosealing at the current softcap, assuming it follows the same 2/3rds rule as Calligraphy and Earthshapeing
Citation? Haruhisa taught Ino and us at the same time, and we have SC.
.....right. SC. duh.
I don't want to hunt the source rn, but I belive that without SC, a teacher can take on one student as a side project, or up to 3 as a full-time job.
In our case, we can have Hazou!THInstructor teach Noburi, Mari, and Kei all at once.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean I wasn't thinking Hazou would be the teacher to be honest (I strongly suspect we'll be back in Leaf after the rift battle), but even if he is her teacher we objectively know this isn't true, Haruhisa was teaching Hazou and Ino at the same time. I think that, as with the other long form stunts, you can have up to 3 students at once
If he is teaching Kei and Nobs he should go ahead and also teach Mari as well, since she already has (at least) 3 elements + several jonin level techs to Tweak
EDIT: regrettably i have been ninja'd with literally all of the info in this post lol
Last edited:
A single student is a full time job. Learning TH takes 3 training blocks of time and so does teaching it.
Source: I did the SC calculations for learning TH and teaching PS.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think Minatosealing is a combat stat any more than TH or even normal sealing are - absolutely will help you create weapons, maneuvers, techniques, tactics etc to use later, but it's ultimately not a real substitute for actually putting xp in your basic stats. A +4AB Taijutsu buff would be incredible if we can research it, but the bonus is more effective the higher Taijutsu is actually leveled. At some point his combat skills being basic bitch chuunin (or worse, technically) hold Hazou back from utilizing the tools he's making, and arguably he's already there.
Two suggested changes:
- Make explicit that we're not mentioning time runes.
- Include "all non-temporal runes" in the capabilities list. Icarus and Air Leadening might be relevant, RE has certain strategic advantages over RE 2.0 (for example, it's more likely that we'll be able to carry blanks of it to and from the Seventh Path), I don't think the WMD aspect of Storm is enough to refrain from mentioning it, etc.
Siege.
Deceit.
Necessity, excluding.
Also, approve of this, but I expect some people not to.
Don't think this needs to be there? It's relevant as an argument for persuading Oro to link up with Leaf, but you've already said that we're only helping him if he either agrees to do that or convinces us that it's not viable.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
Thank you for the delicious meal. Of words. There's a pun on "mealworms" to make here but I'll leave it to a better wormsmith than I.
VOICE 1: Was that the name?
VOICE 2: I thought it was something about light?
VOICE 1: Didn't she say things like, fractals and-
VOICE 3: No, that was her other other self, you idiot!
VOICE 2: Wait, the light was for the explanation. The castor sensor cycle must be the name.
VOICE 3: The what,
"I couldn't follow it all, sorry."
"It's the thing with the death squads but it's even worse."
"KAMI FUCKING DAMN IT"
"FUCK."
He's entirely too sure he would notice the genjutsu mistress leaving.
"And you don't want to know what Kei did. If I never see that ice monstrosity again it'll be too soon!"
Re: the events that led to him being here in the first place, that's a ballsy declaration. Two different kinds of sealed horrors, that sucks.
When did she speak to Ritsuo?
"speaking of, Orochimaru might turn everyone into zombies at some point. Just saying."
THE VOICES IN HIS HEAD:
VOICE 1: Was that the name?
VOICE 2: I thought it was something about light?
VOICE 1: Didn't she say things like, fractals and-
VOICE 3: No, that was her other other self, you idiot!
VOICE 2: Wait, the light was for the explanation. The castor sensor cycle must be the name.
VOICE 3: The what,
Not as bad as chakra raptors, though. Or chakra unicorns, probably, though they don't exist (at her clearance level). And I'm not sure where they stand in comparison to chakra chamel... what was I talking about? Oh yeah, chakra ostriches.
or when the Karasu did weird things with those beasts that totally were chakra beasts and totally couldn't gain powers from eating seals...
Kakuzu certainly had a fortune in gold, and taxed them while Hidan and his whims occurred, so that tracks.
"Kagome-sensei, you seem lost."
"I couldn't follow it all, sorry."
"It's the thing with the death squads but it's even worse."
"KAMI FUCKING DAMN IT"
She needs TTRPGs to take care of that streak.
That sounds needlessly pessimistic, when we can imagine that the process, if not detected fast, could not be reversed through other means than "noticing it and combating it right away after it becomes obvious." If the harvests start to fail, before it all precipitates into "and then everyone dies," we could conceive that ninja missions intended to protect, or indeed just take part in, agriculture, would be considered and then become more common. This would be till'n'fills' very much bigger brother. Maybe some Hidden Villages would lose contact with others as the "darkness" constricts them more, which could imply no war as well, and more care for the issue of ensuring their self-sufficiency. Of course this would still progressively mean something else: rise of the ninja (slash high-chakra) population in proportion. Population replacement isn't exactly something that brings a smile to anyone's face, but if almost all of the population can be taught to make big strong walls or cast fireballs, then you can hope for a country that can reclaim the wilderness, over time. With farmers who can cast fireballs.
It all hinges on the ability to stop war, though. If ninja attrition is the only method to destroy chakra beasts, there is no solution except "what about more ninja?" - but there's Pain's ritual, maybe, and perhaps we can make up some other über-sealing protocol.
"We killed two Kage but we didn't know it was wro- I mean, we didn't know it would happen."
... Potentially all of them? He implied he wanted to end chakra, or change it fundamentally, said that "the Five still being sealed" was a failure... le big sigh. Potentially all of them at once.
Don't worry, the clanless are very indirectly descended from the Sage's third cousin. It's a very efficient system.
That's because this is NOT KAGOME-SENSEI! NOT PARANOID ENOUGH
JIRAIYA, HIDING BEHIND A BUSH: "Huh. How'd he know about the gold trees?"
Said in the same tone as "oh, noooo, I have too much garlic bread..."
And around her voice! ... They're still in Iron, right?
[X] Do three or four more loops just to get that much better at social skills, and become immune to consequences for any of the following:
- Treason
- Obvious list kink
- Foot-in-Mouth disease
- Ami
Kagome, be careful, you'll get caught by the Antimemetics Dragon.
"By the way, I know you also are a great cook, Inoue."
"FUCK."
I forgot about Air Leadener. Expanded the list of runes, and specifically blacklisted temporal runes.
I'm not mentioning chakra capacitor because it's not relevant and I don't want to give Oro all our research ideas for free.
I hadn't mentioned Icarus runes because they affect us and our allies, while leaving every Akatsuki beside Hidan unaffected. Given that they're unhelpful in this fight, we might as well keep an ace up our sleeve for the future, rather than give Oro the idea for free.
That said, I'm not that committed to it, if you want we can include them to.
Thank you.
That's very helpful, fixed.
Glad to hear it. I consider it the non-negotiable heart of the plan.
If Leaf is a valid option but Oro refuses to take it anyway(despite the increased odds of mission success), it means he's planning to yoink the rift scar and stay missing, and has every incentive to kill Hazou on his way out.
I'm not OK with that.
Instead, he can choose to:
- Team up and wreck the Akatsuki with Leaf at his back
- Try to solo it(or at least kill Sasori), with Hazou+Leaf as a second strike contingency if he fails.
- Kill Hazo on the spot and try to solo it, with no time to foil Hazou's deadman switches, and no contingency to cover him if he fails.
This is more a "We can figure out the details once we contact Leaf" than trying to convince Oro. I agree it's not super needed, I'll cut it. Any leftover wordcount can go to better detailing our deadman switches.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, Hazō is not able to make a blank, cut it apart, and then reassemble it more quickly than recreating it from scratch. At least, not at his current level of Earthshaping…
(Not sure if this one was answered already.) He did not.
The prep day results for all of these were consensed during today's QM meeting. You will be getting the prep day results later today once @Paperclipped has a minute.
Respectively:
Correct.
It does not combine. "Tag derived from a ninjutsu" is a central example of a buff.
Woo! I mean, it's a bit late to research them now, but still, it'll be good to have them!
Wait. Beta-Hazō got to keep his socials? Does that include his social stats, or just his non-level-dependent skills? Does that mean he kept some of his Sealing (similar kind of thing) and won't have to pay as much XP to relearn it?
- Location
- United States
Feel free to outsource this to us! Sheet building is my favorite part of the quest.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Just non-level-dependent. The beta timeline is not mechanically faithful to the alpha timeline, because