Can someone explain the current overall plan to me? I admit that I'm pretty clueless on it at this point, and a little confused because (to the extent that I understand it) it's not the path I personally would have chosen were I God Emperor EJ, First Among Equals of the Players. @Sir Stompy pointed out to me that I had the research plan wrong, but I am also confused about the overall plan.

Is it:

"Make defensive runes that allow us to bunker up in Leaf, then go back and stay there to do...something."

"Make defensive runes to protect Leaf and offensive runes to kill Akatsuki, drop the defensive ones off in Leaf, take the offensive ones and...something."

"Something else"?
As I understand it, the original plan (and still the backup plan) was:
  1. Make offensive runes sufficient to assault the Rift site.
  2. Make defensive runes sufficient to protect Leaf from assault.
  3. Link up with Leaf (and in particular, Orochimaru) to steal the Rift, since Orochimaru has Rift-moving runes.
    1. We hope, anyway. I'm a bit worried about Oro, actually, now that we know he hasn't shown up in Arachnid for weeks.
  4. Steal the Rift, take it back to Leaf.
  5. Open the Rift and pull out our S-rankers (Jiraiya, Minato, Hiruzen, etc.), relying on our defensive runes to protect us until we can find them.

The plan that many people (me included, to an extent) think would be better if we can pull it off is:
  1. Make offensive runes sufficient to assault the Rift site.
  2. Come up with some way to make the devastation at the site looklike Sasori had a catastrophic sealing failure. (Superheaters seem to be the favoured option.)
    1. This obviously requires us to know that Sasori is actually there, and ideally when he's actually infusing since the rest of Akatsuki might know that.
    2. The problem being that Sasori may be using a different Rift, in which case we can't blame it on him.
  3. Alternatively, come up with some way to make the devastation look like the work of another power (principal candidate, "whoever destroyed Isan" since Akatsuki doesn't know that was Asuma).
    1. This is a less attractive solution, since for maximum effect we'd have to use Superchillers, and it would be really really bad if Yuno figured out we were complicit in Isan's destruction from our suspiciously accurate knowledge of how to replicate it.
    2. However, Superheaters might also be enough to make people see it as the same modus operandi, and it doesn't require us to have intel on the rift site.
  4. Assault the Rift site, stroll in, either steal the Rift outright or replace it with a different one, stroll out.
    1. Addendum: we don't actually need to take the Rift all the way with us. Moving it a few kilometres or so is likely enough to make it functionally impossible for Akatsuki to track it down; it's effectively like closing it except we still know where it is.
  5. Open the Rift ourselves, pull out friendly S-rankers at our leisure.
This plan relies on Akatsuki not figuring out that we stole the Rift.
  • The biggest problem with the original plan is that Akatsuki will figure out it was Leaf - if nothing else, they'd come to check, so we'd have to have defensive runes up over Leaf in advance, which would give the game away - and they could, if they wanted, then tell the rest of the EN. At which point we have the next World War on our hands, and while they might not be able to bypass our Force Domes, the risk of them having some esoteric technique we didn't know to defend against is quite high and they could still burn the whole of the rest of Fire before we pull out enough S-rankers to establish Pax Konoha.
  • With this plan, Leaf is genuinely uninvolved - if we do it well enough, even Naruto might think it actually wasn't us - and Akatsuki should fairly quickly conclude they don't have the Rift even if they stop by to check in. Given that, Akatsuki have no major incentive to tell the rest of the EN, and ideally no major incentive to hunt us down; they either think it was a sealing failure that destroyed the Rift and give up, think the Rift is still there but Sasori is dead and maybe have Konan take over (much more slowly), or think it was whoever destroyed Isan and focus their efforts on figuring out who did that (and if they didn't already figure out it was Leaf, it seems unlikely that they'd manage it after so much additional time).
The major differences in requirements are:
  1. The original plan needs defensive runes. This plan doesn't.
    1. This is a bit of a moot point, since we already have Force Dome and Iron Earth, but worth noting since it means we don't need to worry about researching Kagome's Tears or anti-spacetime runes for Itachi or a better Iron Earth to withstand high-level tunneling techniques or ... etc.
  2. The original plan doesn't need us to have rift runes, because Oro has them. This plan does.
    1. Hence all the debate about Microrift.
  3. The original plan doesn't require us to hide who did the attack. This plan does.
    1. This requires us to have something like Superheaters that looks like a sealing failure, or looks like an Isan-destroying super-jutsu. The most plausible strategy we have for actually killing Akatsuki is the Landmine Remote Explosiver barrage, but if the remaining members go to the site and see lots of giant craters, they're going to conclude it was us. Doesn't matter that we shouldn't be able to make explosions that big; we're the Clan of Explosions, it ties it way too firmly to us.
  4. In the original plan, we have as much chakra as we like to assault the Rift. In this plan, we're limited to what we can carry with us. We can make blanks in advance, but we still have to infuse runes on site and make SCs to do it in a reasonable timeframe and so on.
 
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ponwog90: No.


The original mechanics that we put out said that a Force Dome was unbreakable by any force that Hazō or the team were able to verify. Yes, those mechanics were marked as tentative, but they have not been modified or retracted.


I'm impressed that you're doing this and thank you for it, but I'm a little confused. Kagome said where the rifts were; Hazō made an off-the-cuff guess that it would be about 5 days travel, but he's not looking at a to-scale map, he's working off memories of medieval-quality maps. It's quite feasible that he would be wrong. Or am I misunderstanding what you were doing?



Can someone explain the current overall plan to me? I admit that I'm pretty clueless on it at this point, and a little confused because (to the extent that I understand it) it's not the path I personally would have chosen were I God Emperor EJ, First Among Equals of the Players. @Sir Stompy pointed out to me that I had the research plan wrong, but I am also confused about the overall plan.

Is it:

"Make defensive runes that allow us to bunker up in Leaf, then go back and stay there to do...something."

"Make defensive runes to protect Leaf and offensive runes to kill Akatsuki, drop the defensive ones off in Leaf, take the offensive ones and...something."

"Something else"?


I was going for the humor, that's all.


Did you mean EM or ES? (Elemental Mastery vs Earthshaping). Elemental Mastery takes place over the course of a few seconds -- one or two rounds, IIRC.
I think the problem you're running into with "the plan" is that there isn't a "the plan", there's several factions that have different opinions of how workable their versions of "the plan" are and are pushing for their necessary runes to be put in a plan.

For instance, I think that if our ranged explosive runes work the way I think they do -- that is, that multiple explosions at the same time mean multiple TN 100 checks for the recipients -- that is our offenses covered and we don't really need anything else to take the Afterlife Rift site -- just utility stuff like Ninjadar and concealment stuff to keep Kisame or Itachi from cottoning onto our location while we set up 150+ such runes a mile away in the sky.
 
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I don't disagree, however based on what the Toad Sages said, and what we just found out about the Great Seal, spuriously bringing runes onto the 7th Path might accelerate the deterioration of the Great Seal.

I still hope we can help Cannai through non-existential-death means. Maybe seals for other functions?
It's a time effect not a space effect but you're right that it's still a concern. Hopefully any deterioration contribution will be negligible considering the many many seals already being used throughout the Seventh Path.

@eaglejarl Does Hazō think time acceleration runes will hasten the deterioration of the Great Seal?
 
I think the problem you're running into with "the plan" is that there isn't a "the plan", there's several factions that have different opinions of how workable their versions of "the plan" are and are pushing for their necessary runes to be put in a plan.

For instance, I think that if our ranged explosive runes work the way I think they do -- that is, that multiple explosions at the same time mean multiple TN 100 checks for the recipients -- that is our offenses covered and we don't really need anything else to take the Afterlife Rift site -- just utility stuff like Ninjadar and concealment stuff to keep Kisame or Itachi from cottoning onto our location while we set up 150+ such runes a mile away in the sky.
Are you in the "link up with Leaf" group or the "steal the Rift on our own" group? If the latter, we don't actually have the chakra to set up 150+ runes unless we do it over multiple days - which we could do, but it would dramatically increase the risk of discovery. Also, even linking up with Leaf, it would take something like twelve hours to infuse them unless Orochimaru also knew the rune - Noburi has to be in Leaf, so we can only make as many SCs as we can carry chakra from the Seventh Path and still have enough left per clone to infuse the rune, which is ... one, I think? 315 CP, then 175 CP for the clone, split the remaining 140 CP two ways leaves us with 70 CP for Prime and 70 for the clone, which is just about enough to do one infusion each before we have to refill.

(Actually, this is a good argument for raising our CR at some point semi-soon, though our Athletics is so terrible that I'm leery of putting anything else before that. The threshold for 70 CP/clone and two clones is only 410 chakra, which we would have at CR 39 + ACE + non-damaging Noburi overcharge. Problem is it would be 630 XP to get there, which is a couple of months even at FOOM rates, and Athletics probably really is a higher priority really ...)

Plus, as has been pointed out to me, even multiple TN 100 checks might not be enough. For the likes of Kisame, it might very well go:
Uplift fires Remote Explosive runes!

Kisame (Reflexive Supp): Strength of the Storm, Effect 10! Kisame gets 10 tags!
Kisame (Reflexive Supp): [Another BS reflexive buff jutsu], Effect 10! Kisame gets 10 tags!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 28 (tag SotS x4) + 14 (tag [jutsu] x2) + 0 = 111!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 28 (tag SotS x4) + 14 (tag [jutsu] x2) + 0 = 111!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 14 (tag SotS x2) + 21 (tag [jutsu] x3) + 0 = 104!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 21 (tag [jutsu] x3) + 7 (invoke) + 7 (invoke) + 0 = 104!

And that's assuming all the explosions hit his Zone; in reality, a lot of the attacks would be TN 80, which he could dodge by spending only two or three tags. Alternatively, he might have some BS chakra-intensive defensive technique, like Whirlwind Barrier level 60 but reflexive, which would block any number of TN 100 attacks.

The calculations change a lot with Remote Explosivers, which is why I'm in favour of researching Explosivers ASAP; if they have to dodge TN 130/110 instead of 100/80, the chance of killing them IMO goes up hugely. Alternatively, if having super-powerful explosions coming from multiple directions prevents dodging with Ath, the chance of killing them is also much higher; but we don't know that that would work.
 
Sorry for double-posting, but I just noticed: @RandomOTP , @Anqied , you're currently voting for "Cancel Microrift rune, but do something else (Finish current research)". Would you consider voting for "[X] Cancel Microrift rune, but do something else. (Finish Ninja Radar, use other DoB track for Explosiver, research Banshee Lovers on non-DoB track)"? It seems to be essentially the same thing, and is trailing "Go to one of Kagome's rift sites" by only a single vote - if both of you voted for it, that would put it in the lead.
 
Are you in the "link up with Leaf" group or the "steal the Rift on our own" group? If the latter, we don't actually have the chakra to set up 150+ runes unless we do it over multiple days - which we could do, but it would dramatically increase the risk of discovery. Also, even linking up with Leaf, it would take something like twelve hours to infuse them unless Orochimaru also knew the rune - Noburi has to be in Leaf, so we can only make as many SCs as we can carry chakra from the Seventh Path and still have enough left per clone to infuse the rune, which is ... one, I think? 315 CP, then 175 CP for the clone, split the remaining 140 CP two ways leaves us with 70 CP for Prime and 70 for the clone, which is just about enough to do one infusion each before we have to refill.

(Actually, this is a good argument for raising our CR at some point semi-soon, though our Athletics is so terrible that I'm leery of putting anything else before that. The threshold for 70 CP/clone and two clones is only 410 chakra, which we would have at CR 39 + ACE + non-damaging Noburi overcharge. Problem is it would be 630 XP to get there, which is a couple of months even at FOOM rates, and Athletics probably really is a higher priority really ...)

Plus, as has been pointed out to me, even multiple TN 100 checks might not be enough. For the likes of Kisame, it might very well go:
Uplift fires Remote Explosive runes!

Kisame (Reflexive Supp): Strength of the Storm, Effect 10! Kisame gets 10 tags!
Kisame (Reflexive Supp): [Another BS reflexive buff jutsu], Effect 10! Kisame gets 10 tags!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 28 (tag SotS x4) + 14 (tag [jutsu] x2) + 0 = 111!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 28 (tag SotS x4) + 14 (tag [jutsu] x2) + 0 = 111!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 14 (tag SotS x2) + 21 (tag [jutsu] x3) + 0 = 104!
Kisame (Athletics): 69 + 21 (tag [jutsu] x3) + 7 (invoke) + 7 (invoke) + 0 = 104!

And that's assuming all the explosions hit his Zone; in reality, a lot of the attacks would be TN 80, which he could dodge by spending only two or three tags. Alternatively, he might have some BS chakra-intensive defensive technique, like Whirlwind Barrier level 60 but reflexive, which would block any number of TN 100 attacks.

The calculations change a lot with Remote Explosivers, which is why I'm in favour of researching Explosivers ASAP; if they have to dodge TN 130/110 instead of 100/80, the chance of killing them IMO goes up hugely. Alternatively, if having super-powerful explosions coming from multiple directions prevents dodging with Ath, the chance of killing them is also much higher; but we don't know that that would work.
The thing about reflexive jutsu is that, to my recollection, they only work precombat if you're aware of the attack. Which is a massive failure on our part if they are. That said, this is why i said 150+ runes. I estimated it'd be about 8 runes necessary to take out Hidan, and then eight on all of the zones around the target zone, and then on all the zones surrounding *those* zones too, to prevent substitution getting them out of the death field.

Though if I'm honest -- I think that at the point that we unleash *that* quantity of explosives all at once it's better described as a TN 150 attack or something lmao. Still.

And yes, this would take us multiple days to do -- hence the need for the aforementioned utility runes. Rune-powered holograms that do a live display of the sky behind us, for instance, and chakra smoothing runes that completely prevent chakra sense from noticing us.

I am part of the "take the rift our damn selves" team.
 
Hm. Wasn't aware of that. Still, just means we need more dakka by volume, not by type.
In principle, sure. But having Remote Explosivers would make things so much more efficient that it seems silly not to research them first? 150+ runes is 450 hours just to make the blanks, and I don't know offhand how much chakra it is per blank but I'm pretty sure it's enough that we can't afford to multithread much; 450 hours is 37.5 days (considering 12 hours of available time per day), which is multiple research cycles' worth of time. It might actually literally cost less time to research Remote Explosivers and make fewer of them than to make 150+ Remote Explosives, not even considering the other advantages.
 
In principle, sure. But having Remote Explosivers would make things so much more efficient that it seems silly not to research them first? 150+ runes is 450 hours just to make the blanks, and I don't know offhand how much chakra it is per blank but I'm pretty sure it's enough that we can't afford to multithread much; 450 hours is 37.5 days (considering 12 hours of available time per day), which is multiple research cycles' worth of time. It might actually literally cost less time to research Remote Explosivers and make fewer of them than to make 150+ Remote Explosives, not even considering the other advantages.
If they're easy enough I have no objections to that! I'm just making the point that it's pretty possible to do this as it is now. Though something to shut off jutsu within a mile temporarily would do the trick, too, hm...
 
Not even that, just that it'll take long enough that Rift Runes aren't a limiting factor and don't need to be top priority.
Most versions of "enough firepower to probaby take the rift" seem the same length or shorter:
Explosivisers + Remote Explosivisers + Ninja Radar + Superheater
or just
"Superheater" + "Remote Superheater"

5 minutes of this won't destroy a human body. Especially not once that can function at just chakra coils and brains.
I was wrong about the melting point of lead.
Still, "wipe out everybody but Hidan" is pretty good. I bet Mari + Cannai + Toads can take him.

Not far enough to infuse a rune in safety from Kisame or Itachi. They can likely see/sense chakra from that far
so use remote rune variants, or crank up the size, or activate the Superheaters in a ring around and over the rift site and slow-cook them.

For the Reverse Summoners, you're risking that they won't appear in the middle of us absconding with the Rift. I wouldn't take that bet.
I think this is solvable.
Spot their location with Ninja-Radar, run in and cover the unsummoning point with BRI-spikes as soon as the air temperature becomes survivable.
for bonus, make a personal AC seal the cools the air a bit, and do this slightly before the temperature becomes survivable.

If we know the spot they departed from, either by relatively conventional observation or some spinoff of rift-finding tech, could use Earthshaping to set up a burial mound just like the Bear Summoner's.
ES is slow, but BRI covers multiple zones as a standard. sounds good.

A nuke only satisfies condition 2 if our timing and intelligence are good. If it just explodes while it's sitting there then it doesn't look like a random failure and Goketsu 'WMD' Hazo is high up the list of suspects. And the Rift 'failing' dramatically and then disappearing or showing up on sensor seals in a materially different way is going to prompt the Akatsuki to ask who benefits and scrutinize them no matter what - point three is a matter of degree, not whether or not we can avoid it.
I think that Sasori will probably be at/near the rift site.(QMs confirmed he has to me there most infusion days).
If Sasori, the rift site, and everything else in a mile radius melt to glass, everyone else will think "sealing failure".

If Sasori isn't there, he will suspect enemy action. but they don't know that Hazou has ever created a WMD, while they are already hunting for an unknown (but definitely not Hazou or Leaf) party that Nuked Isan.

But even if they do sherlock out that it was Hazou, so what? we already think they're manhunting us as hard as they can afford to. I don't think this makes our situation any worse.

I disagree per the above. I think the move is to head back to Leaf and coordinate a snatch. We don't have to worry about appearing innocent and we have bigger resources to bring to bear on the problem.

Do you find my position consistent?
I can't tell. I think think we aren't synched up on what our base assumptions are, but I'm not sure how to pinpoint what the differences are. the other sections of you post also desevese my reflection and comment, but I don't think that I can do so usefuly when I'm just thinking "huh there's a weird(to me) asssumption baked in somewhere and I cant tell where".

Would you be interested in explaining your thoughts more over a discord call? it seems like a better meduim for this.

Yeah this will take a couple hours, 30 minutes at least, and relies on having observational runes in place.

Now what if they pop back 15 minutes into that time pissed off and ready to fight? What is our recourse there?

This is not a low probability either. They know that we know to cover their exit points. They know that they must return soon to preserve their ability to every return. They will be aggressive about returning.
We can set the Superheater duration to longer, if you prefer.
Also, they don't know when the temperature is safe, but we do. they'd need to be *very* lucky to guess the narrow window of a few rounds where the air is survivable but we haven't blocked the exit.

I think the problem you're running into with "the plan" is that there isn't a "the plan", there's several factions that have different opinions of how workable their versions of "the plan" are and are pushing for their necessary runes to be put in a plan.
Yeah. relatedly, I really think we should have a chapter where we talk these out with Kei to get her feedback.
 
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Is it:

"Make defensive runes that allow us to bunker up in Leaf, then go back and stay there to do...something."

"Make defensive runes to protect Leaf and offensive runes to kill Akatsuki, drop the defensive ones off in Leaf, take the offensive ones and...something."

"Something else"?

I think there are basically three running plans.

  • Operation Big Shonen Combat:
    • Show back up to Leaf with defensive runes and other gamechanging things. Tell Naruto et al that it's go time. Assault rift site, steal the rift, probably do a big combat thingy.
    • We probably want to bait Akatsuki into committing into a big dramatic combat encounter so that they aren't just doing guerilla warfrare stuff to us for the next 10 years, so we might want to turn the rift site into prepared ground or something and make it clear that Shit is Going Down, so that they come screaming out of the skies like a bat out of hell.
Two of the problems in the "Get all the Leaf guys together to go kick ass" plan are general uncertainty of results and general uncertainty of outcomes. e.g. if we do that, and all the Leaf-nin die, but Itachi and Deidara are still alive, well, that seems like a problem for us. If Tsunade dies, but Orochimaru and Naruto live, then while we've accomplished the immediate goal of stopping Akatsuki, we may have just swapped one evil dictator with another, depending on how Snuncle Oro feels about letting us play around with the afterlife rift. So we may want to examine plans here where Leaf is not involved. Namely:
  • Yoink the Rift ourselves - Explosively:
    • Blow up everything and everyone at the rift site.
      • Gee, we'll need some firepower to do this and not have it be an absolute hail mary of a play.
    • Yoink the rift, squirrel it away somewhere they arent likely to find anytime soon, run like mad.
      • Gee, we'll need runes that do this faster than molasses.
  • Yoink the Rift ourselves - Stealthily:
    • Yoink the rift, squirrel it away somewhere they arent likely to find anytime soon, run like mad.
      • Gee, we'll need to somehow do this without giving the game away. So rift runes, but better than whatever Oro was cooking up, or something else that makes this viable (pinching together space between 100 miles of land or something like that, for instance).
The problem with yoinking it ourselves is that there's good reason to believe that at least two of Akatsuki will likely be present at the rift site (Sasori needs to do research and/or Hidan might be babysitting his cultists and/or one of them is checking up on the site + they travel in pairs). This presents a considerable problem since we would either have to neutralize them (if yoinking it explosively) or steal it out from under their noses (if doing it stealthily).

Research wise, we're doing the most prep for the first two options at the moment. We'll see where things fall on the rift runes front I guess.
 
I would feel more comfortable about a medium-term assault on the rift if we had overlapping offensive measures, ideally esoteric. What about a rune that turns matter in its target radius to stone? Hazou could then map the area via Earthshaping to easily locate any survivors.

Other potentially-achievable runes:

*Tunable large-scale version of scenary clone array that can also make immense blinding light or impenetrable darkness (combined with Ninja Radar, offers sensory asymmetry)
*Genjutsu rune that targets Resolve with Runic Explosive-tier TNs and range
*Remote Time Rune with ~30% slowdown factor (combined with our sitting in a TR140, yields effective acceleration of 200% against enemies in the target volume. Try watching pro boxers fight at 0.5x speed on youtube; the difference is dramatic)
 
[X] No, go to one of Kagome's rift-sites.
[X] Cancel Microrift rune, but do something else. (Finish Ninja Radar, use other DoB track for Explosiver, research Banshee Lovers on non-DoB track)
 
Adding Multiple Explosives New
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Hello! A few questions have come up regarding Remote Explosive Runes (RE) and how the mechanics works when using multiple of them at once. Per Paper's request, I will outline an example scenario that we may find ourselves in within a few months.

Sasori and Hidan are having tea in O'Uzu, 30 meters away from the Pure Lands rift scar. They are both sitting on the ground with no warning of what is going to happen shortly.

Hazo is slightly less than 1 mile from Sasori and Hidan in the sky with the sun behind him. He has set up a skytower to work from and has infused and aimed 10 REs at Hidan and Sasori with the help of some Shadow Clones. The REs have seals (MARS if that is sufficient, if not then a new seal that works with REs) that are linked to a MARS chain leading from Hazo.

Hazo activates the MARS chain before Sasori and Hidan know that combat is going to happen.

What do Sasori and Hidan roll to dodge? Some possible solutions include:

- A single TN 100 dodge.

- A single dodge roll with a higher TN based on the number of REs firing at once.

- A TN 100 dodge roll for every RE that is fired.

Does the answer to this change if Hazo uses larger numbers of REs (50, 100, etc)?

Does the answer to this change if Hazo and Kei simultaneously activate MARS chains leading to these REs?

Does the answer to this change if instead of using MARS, each RE is activated simultaneously by a Shadow Clone?

Does the answer to this change if instead of using MARS, each RE is activated sequentially by a Shadow Clone?

The current Remote Explosive Runes (REs) don't work with MARS but there's no reason you couldn't research such a variant. Assuming you do, MARS chains normally start and finish on the same initiative (although we might rule differently in the face of egregiously long chains), so ordinarily all of the REs would be firing at the same time mechanics-wise. As such, all of the explosions constitute a single attack. On the other hand, MARS chains do have a few milliseconds of lag in them from one segment to the next, so the REs aren't firing *literally* at the same time. In essence, the air explodes and then a few milliseconds later it explodes again, then again, etc. Not sure that makes sense by physics but sure whatever.

Explosions from any source (seals, runes, jutsu…) start from a point and radiate outwards. As has been shown, runes have small and unpreventable variances in them caused by their structure and their infusion process. As such, two REs that hit the same zone won't detonate in precisely the same location – they will be "somewhere towards the middle of the zone, but not literally the precise geometric center". That means that a piece of cover that protects against the first explosion might be less effective against the second one which comes from a slightly different direction.

Putting these facts together, victims of a group of REs will make one dodge roll against any number of REs fired on the same MARS chain, but the TN will be based on how many REs there are.

Regardless of whether it's tags or jutsu or runes, multiple explosions of equivalent strength going off on the same initiative compound with rapidly diminishing returns. The first one contributes its full TN and each one after that contributes 25% of what the previous one did. So:

  • 1 RE: TN 100/80/60/40 => +100 / + 80 / + 60 / +40
  • 2 RE: TN 125/100/75/50 => +25 / +20 / +15 / +10
  • 3 RE: TN 132/104/79/53 => +7 / +4 / +4 / +3 (round up 6.25, 4, 3.75, 2.5)
  • 4 RE: TN 134/105/80/54 => +2 / +1 / +1 / +1 (round up 1.75, 1, 1, 0.75)
  • 5 RE: TN 135/106/81/55 => +1 / +1 / +1 / +1
  • 6+ RE: no further mechanical bonus
(Note: We would prefer not to put in the brainpower to figure out how to handle a barrage of explosives of unequal strength, but we will if it's absolutely necessary.)

Does the answer to this change if Hazo and Kei simultaneously activate MARS chains leading to these REs?
No, it does not. All the explosions get grouped together as specified above – if Hazō fires 3 and Kei fire 2 then you get the "5 runes" version, and if Hazō fires 3 and Kei fires 3 then you still get the "5 runes equivalent" version.

We're going to make an exception to the normal ambush rules for this situation:

All explosions that happen sufficiently close together happen before Akatsuki can react, and get grouped as above. After that we are into combat and everyone responds on their initiative. Thus, if Hazou and Kei are staggering their attacks:

  • Hazō's Alertness (and therefore initiative) is 36
  • Kei's Alertness (and therefore initiative) is 49
  • Sasori's Alertness is HDK but probably higher than 49

Hazō opens combat by firing 5 REs, which collectively hit at 135. That is a single attack that happens before combat. As soon as it is resolved, combat starts. Sasori moves, then Kei fires 5 more runes which collectively hit at 135 (assume no delay for Runic Explosives firing), then Hazō moves again.

If instead Hazō and Kei fire simultaneously then their attacks will both hit before Akatsuki moves, but diminishing returns says that you still only get the effect of 5 runes hitting together. (This is a repeat of what's stated above, just for clarity.)


Does the answer to this change if instead of using MARS, each RE is activated simultaneously by a Shadow Clone?
No, it does not. All the explosions get grouped together.

> Does the answer to this change if instead of using MARS, each RE is activated sequentially by a Shadow Clone?
Yes, it does. Hidan and Sasori likely have Alertness high enough that they can move after the first explosion, so they would dodge 1 Runic Explosive, then take their turns. Further Runic Explosives would be rolled separately and may hit them, but not necessarily if they move, bunker up so the explosion hits their bunker first, etc.
 
The thing about reflexive jutsu is that, to my recollection, they only work precombat if you're aware of the attack.
This is not accurate. If you're ambushed you can still cast Sub/other reflexive jutsu.

You can use reflexive jutsu during an ambush, but only if you can detect an attack that is going to harm you in specific. In other words, you don't get to Substitute if you can't see an attack coming or if the attack is aimed at your friend instead of at you. You do get to Substitute if you sense (by whatever means) that your zone is about to be filled with explosion.
 
Aight we're in business, lets get a few more shinies done and go kill these fuckers lol.
 
Does Hazou think a Superchiller rune shielded by a minimum-size Force Dome would withstand the force of the hypertornado?
He thinks it is almost certain to withstand that force.

Does he think his design would affect air outside of the Force Dome?
He thinks it would, as the Force Dome should block physical transit, not chakra effects.

Separately, will a Force Dome burrow into the ground at all? Like if you put the central rune into a depression 10m below ground level, will it slice 10m down?
The Force Dome rune attempts to create a spherical barrier around itself. It will cut through/displace dirt/sand/trees/etc but not bedrock. This is not a viable attack method against people, since the barrier is too thin to properly target and forms over the course of a short time.
 
Putting these facts together, victims of a group of REs will make one dodge roll against any number of REs fired on the same MARS chain, but the TN will be based on how many REs there are.

Regardless of whether it's tags or jutsu or runes, multiple explosions of equivalent strength going off on the same initiative compound with rapidly diminishing returns. The first one contributes its full TN and each one after that contributes 25% of what the previous one did. So:

  • 1 RE: TN 100/80/60/40 => +100 / + 80 / + 60 / +40
  • 2 RE: TN 125/100/75/50 => +25 / +20 / +15 / +10
  • 3 RE: TN 132/104/79/53 => +7 / +4 / +4 / +3 (round up 6.25, 4, 3.75, 2.5)
  • 4 RE: TN 134/105/80/54 => +2 / +1 / +1 / +1 (round up 1.75, 1, 1, 0.75)
  • 5 RE: TN 135/106/81/55 => +1 / +1 / +1 / +1
  • 6+ RE: no further mechanical bonus
(Note: We would prefer not to put in the brainpower to figure out how to handle a barrage of explosives of unequal strength, but we will if it's absolutely necessary.)
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien Unfortunately, I think we are going to have to ask about explosions of unequal strength, because of the following scenario:
  • Hazō uses a MARS chain to fire 3 REs. Two of them miss and hit adjacent Zones, according to the coin toss rule.
  • This means the central Zone is subject to one TN100 explosion, and two TN80 explosions coming from the neighbouring Zones.
  • How is this resolved?
Complications - the two missed explosions are weaker, so they should contribute less. On the other hand, you mentioned that the slight variation in direction is important
That means that a piece of cover that protects against the first explosion might be less effective against the second one which comes from a slightly different direction.
and REs detonating in different Zones have a much greater difference in direction, so should experience this effect to a greater extent and contribute more.
 
(Note: We would prefer not to put in the brainpower to figure out how to handle a barrage of explosives of unequal strength, but we will if it's absolutely necessary.)

@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien Unfortunately, I think we are going to have to ask about explosions of unequal strength, because of the following scenario:
  • Hazō uses a MARS chain to fire 3 REs. Two of them miss and hit adjacent Zones, according to the coin toss rule.
  • This means the central Zone is subject to one TN100 explosion, and two TN80 explosions coming from the neighbouring Zones.
  • How is this resolved?
I suggest that the biggest explosion sets the TN, the 2nd biggest explosion adds 1/4th of its TN, the 3rd biggest explosion adds 1/16th of its TN, the 4th biggest explosion adds 1/64th of it's TN, and so on.

Put differently, the formula of "resolve explosives from biggest to smallest, each explosives adds its TN, divided by 4 for each other explosive and already accounted for" describes the rules you just laid out, and also gracefully extends to cover unequally-sized explosions.
 
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Alright I according to my math barrages of 3 TN 130 RERs can hit at 175 central and barrages of 5 are cap out at at 179. That's enough firepower if we can get 3-4 hits. It might be enough for one hit but it's not completely assured.
 
Anyway, quibbling aside, this seems promising. It's a bit sad that we don't get to hit Akatsuki with multiple attacks, but it makes sense to model them as one, and the potential with Remote Explosivers is massive. TN 130 in-Zone means two attacks push the attack up to TN 163. Someone with Ath 79 and two reflexive multitaggable-x4 buffs could maybe survive that:

Kisame (Athletics): 79 + 32 (tag SotS x4) + 32 (tag [jutsu] x4) + 24 (invoke x3) = 167

So Kisame (assuming he has Ath 79 and the above buff techniques) could survive, but he's just burned three FP invoking so he wouldn't be able to reroll much if at all. Even a few additional points of TN (like, if Left-Hand Mutant's proposed rule is accepted, from the presumably-there off-target runes in neighbouring Zones) would tip the balance into "probably hitting", and if Kisame rolled badly he might just die right there.

And that's for someone with Athletics 79. Kisame's a swordsman and a ninjutsu spec; how likely is his capstone to be Athletics, rather than e.g. Melee Weapons? Especially since Samahada can eat ninjutsu, which mechanically probably means it lets him defend against ninjutsu with Melee Weapons? Similarly, Itachi's capstone is genjutsu and he probably only has Ath 69 at most - though Oro mentioned enough 60-slot support skills that he could have Ath in a 70-slot, actually, and maybe even genjutsu in an 80-slot:
Devoid of context, the whelp would not be particularly threatening. His genjutsu would threaten even Kage, and he has a range of supplemental skills that would out-do the average jōnin – technique modification, Fire-style ninjutsu, weapons skills, hand-to-hand combat, et cetera. These are relatively ordinary capabilities, and would not be noteworthy on their own.
That's ... actually four "supplemental skills" that Oro mentioned Itachi as "outdoing the average jounin" in, so I'm now doubting myself about that meaning he has them in 60-slots? I guess the Combat Training stunts mean that "weapons skills" and "hand-to-hand combat" only need one 60-slot, but Oro said "etc.", implying there are more?

Anyway. Point is, Kisame probably dies, Itachi might die, Konan won't die but our plan for her is "hope she isn't there" anyway, Sasori definitely dies, Deidara definitely dies if we can hit him, Hidan might not die - depending on whether that degree of explosion damages his body enough to count as "total destruction" - but would certainly be incapacitated for at least a few rounds, likely much longer.

All in all, this seems highly promising, and I think the Landmine Remote Explosiver barrage route just got a lot more viable as a killing method for Akatsuki.

Edit:
Alright I according to my math barrages of 3 TN 130 RERs can hit at 175 central and barrages of 5 are cap out at at 179. That's enough firepower if we can get 3-4 hits. It might be enough for one hit but it's not completely assured.
TN 171, I think for 3, and 174 for 5?
 
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That's ... actually four "supplemental skills" that Oro mentioned Itachi as "outdoing the average jounin" in, so I'm now doubting myself about that meaning he has them in 60-slots? I guess the Combat Training stunts mean that "weapons skills" and "hand-to-hand combat" only need one 60-slot, but Oro said "etc.", implying there are more?
Not every skill is jonin-level at 60. Physique, Resolve, and Chakra Reserves, for instance, are sometimes in the 30s-40s for less experienced jonin. Technique Hacking is similar, since you need to hit 40 to teach someone and relatively few teachers exist. Elemental ninjutsu also have stunts like Combat Training so that the highest one of a given element boosts the lower ones. I would guess he has the combat trio of preferred attack, Athletics, and Alertness at 60+, plus another form of attack and maybe genjutsu. His primary forms of attack seem to be fire ninjutsu and some physical melee one, with Combat Training it's hard to say exactly which. Resolve is generally not a primary stat, so I don't know exactly how to interpret his genjutsu threatening Kages into numbers- Kages aren't going to have Resolve 70, after all. Maybe he can reliably beat Resolve 50? It remains unclear.

EDIT: Then again, he specializes in illusions and those target Alertness, so maybe he threatens Alertness 70? Genjutsu 70? Genjutsu 50-60 boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan hax? No idea.
 
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