I largely agree and scrubbing our notes of moving the Rift was to avoid giving him the idea. But still, if he does move it, we have options.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Not really? It's on the order of 60 CP per rune; that's about as much as a moderately expensive technique. Do you think he can see jutsu from a mile away? Or chakra beasts? Besides, I was under the impression that we were pretty sure he doesn't run his Sharingan all the time, because it costs chakra and he has limited reserves.
60CP is more than any chakra beast we have records of. It's a lot of chakra to be outside of a ninja.
The only thing brighter would be full the internal reserves of a ninja, but I don't think the Sharingan can see inside of objects.... I think it should show at a great distance. Especially as pure non-elemental chakra.
He might not use his Sharingan constantly and like I said, he certainly doesn't while he's sleeping. But I think there's a good chance he does perimeter sweeps with thr Sharingan every couple hours.
Now again, if he's regular about it we can exploit that and set up between sweeps, but not without observation runes.
The chakra in a rune is inside a rune. Why is that different from chakra in a ninja being inside a ninja? (I was under the impression that the Sharingan could see people's chakra systems, but I'm wondering what's going on in your head here.)
Also, point of order, it's not more than any chakra beast we have records of. The Wakahisa koi are chakra beasts and host way more than that much chakra, in sufficiently large schools.
Edit: Also, we don't know and have no particular reason to suppose that the Sharingan's chakra sight actually works like sight in clear air, in that bright things are visible at great distances with inverse-square falloff. It could be like detecting the field from an electric dipole and have inverse-cube falloff; there could be significant scattering or noise (e.g. from environmental chakra) that makes the effective range less than the requisite mile.
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Any chakra beast not specifically bred to contain huge amounts of chakra :Hazoulook
Runes are transparent crystal for one. The Sharingan is stopped by things not being transparent I guess? It does seem weird that it can't see through stuff when it sees chakra but IDK.
Although we could work under heavy fabric cloaks? That's not a bad idea now that I consider.
Rihaku
The Internet
Do non-Leaf Shinobi actually know that Hazou can make WMDs? Superchillers were covered up and only Naruto / Oro know about runes. To Itachi et al he's just a very creative paper sealer, right? Most lethal Hazou invention they know about is skyslicers.
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- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I think skyslicers and skywalkers are all that the general public knows about. Knowledge about (Hazou's role in the creation of) skygliders was kept to Hazou's civilian engineering team and Asuma, personally. EM Nuke was also an Asuma-exclusive, although Kei and Shikamaru were also in on that.
However, Ami seemed to assume that Hazou was going to whip out a war-ending WMD back during Leaf's war with Rock at any point. Whether or not this assumption of competence was shared by the wider public, I'm not sure.
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- Yes.
He's creative enough to create Skywalkers and Skyslicers, which Itachi attributes to having led to Nagato and Kakuzu's deaths. If Itachi gets wind of a massive explosive happening at the rift site, he's going to put Hazou at or near the top of the list, because Itachi knows a) Hazou is currently doing shit against Akatsuki, to the point where he went missing-nin to do it; b) Hazou has the reputation of being a guy who can do that shit; and c) Hazou is one of very few people who cares enough about the rift's location and therefore its significance - nobody else cares enough to burn a WMD on the place.
tl;dr Hazou has the motive, knowledge, and (historical) reputation to have plausibly nuke'd the rift site.
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- Book Fort
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- They/Them
Not to mention that the Goketsu Clan combat SOP heavily relies on explosive tags.
Maybe, after the battle, we could bury the exploded topsoil/foliage deep underground, using earthshaping, and then use our seals/runes to fake a sealing failure? Make it look like one of the mooks decided to poke the Rift in such a way that caused it to decay in a spectacular manner?
[X] Cancel Microrift rune, but do something else. (Finish Ninja Radar, use other DoB track for Explosiver, research Banshee Lovers on non-DoB track)
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
... We should see if we can invent some weapons system which would take the Ninja-Radar Rune's outputs (locations of all ninja within 10 miles) and automatically initiate strikes on those locations.
An automatic RER targeting setup is the minimal viable product. It would greatly decrease the number of RERs we'll need for striking O'Uzu: the difference between "saturation bombing" and "precision bombing". In addition, it would likely ensure that nobody would be able to escape, or remain unnoticed: we wouldn't rely on Team Uplift's faulty senses that can't even see through e. g. forest canopy, we would rely on chakra-based targeting (which may be downright impossible to spoof).
If we can make the control-system feedback loops tight enough (i. e., the speed with which the system changes targeting solutions in response to the targets' movement), this should even take care of Akatsuki members flying up to us.
This setup would also then continuously keep us safe from any Akatsuki members attempting to launch a counterattack while we're doing whatever it is we're doing with the rift. If they manage to escape the initial strike, they wouldn't be able to return without risking being instagibbed:
Also, one neglected option: even if our weapons have 1-mile range, we can assemble our weapons on a skytower 10-20 miles up, then just... let it slowly drift down over the course of days, and activate it once the ground is within range. Under some setups, this might work.
Though, of course, it's an open question regarding whether we can scale it enough. This would require:
The next potential problem is (1): does the default NRR operate at combat speeds? If no, how hard is it to improve? Perhaps at the cost of range?
The last problem is how far we can actually scale RERs.
An automatic RER targeting setup is the minimal viable product. It would greatly decrease the number of RERs we'll need for striking O'Uzu: the difference between "saturation bombing" and "precision bombing". In addition, it would likely ensure that nobody would be able to escape, or remain unnoticed: we wouldn't rely on Team Uplift's faulty senses that can't even see through e. g. forest canopy, we would rely on chakra-based targeting (which may be downright impossible to spoof).
If we can make the control-system feedback loops tight enough (i. e., the speed with which the system changes targeting solutions in response to the targets' movement), this should even take care of Akatsuki members flying up to us.
This setup would also then continuously keep us safe from any Akatsuki members attempting to launch a counterattack while we're doing whatever it is we're doing with the rift. If they manage to escape the initial strike, they wouldn't be able to return without risking being instagibbed:
- The weapon sees chakra, which they may not be able to suppress at all.
- Even if they have an esoteric invisibility-in-the-chakra-spectrum technique, they wouldn't immediately know that this weapon works this way. They may not want to risk it.
- The weapon would have a very wide AoE, likely way beyond even Akatsuki members' attack range (since they're at the mercy of the chakra diffusion principle to a much greater extent than runes).
Also, one neglected option: even if our weapons have 1-mile range, we can assemble our weapons on a skytower 10-20 miles up, then just... let it slowly drift down over the course of days, and activate it once the ground is within range. Under some setups, this might work.
Though, of course, it's an open question regarding whether we can scale it enough. This would require:
- The Ninja-Radar Rune, specifically one that can refresh its readings at combat speeds.
- A "control system" rune/seal array, which interfaces with the Ninja-Radar Rune and controls Remote Explosive Runes.
- Remote Explosive Runes that fire faster and have a greater range (though not necessarily 10 miles).
The next potential problem is (1): does the default NRR operate at combat speeds? If no, how hard is it to improve? Perhaps at the cost of range?
The last problem is how far we can actually scale RERs.
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This seems genuinely very hard, much harder than doing it manually with SCs.
Recall that Hazou has no idea how to do runic arrays, we could perhaps revisit that with increased PS, but I am not optimistic.
Orochimaru said that Kisame at least can do this:
Otherwise, my main concern is that I suspect this system will not operate effectively at combat speeds. It would be amazing for an alpha strike (at least assuming Kisame has to actually activate his avoid-chakra-sensing and doesn't just have it on all the time), and worth looking into, but REs turn very slowly and I suspect making a seal-based system that tracks quickly enough would be very difficult. (Also, we'd need some way to make sure it didn't shoot at us, or fire an RE at our skytower or something similarly stupid.) We'd likely need multiple runes per target, even with Remote Landmine Explosivers, but that's manageable.
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
... actually, that's a very good point. Just make the NRR provide a high-quality visualization, and use our ninja as the control system? Might require "training", i. e. buying stunts to use the system efficiently enough, but this is likely legitimately simpler.
We don't need runic "arrays" for that; as in, these mysterious things where a holistic rune effect is implemented on several rocks. We need a set of (separate) runes/seals that interface with each other. Consider a rune that creates an explosion and a rune that activates another rune when it hears a loud noise. I'm talking about this sort of "runic array" (though I note I didn't call it an "array", precisely to avoid confusion with the mysterious thing that Hazou doesn't know how to make).
Good catch.
Trivial, I think. Discard the targets that are within 10 meters of the NRR.
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Yes this is basically my plan, high quality observation runes for surveillance and overpowered RERs for offense, SCs man the RERs. No need for complicated targeting runes. Is limited to low dozens at most but we cannot infuse that many more runes than that in situ. This way each Hazouclone can infuse their own RER and attack very close to simultaneously.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I see. I'd previously failed to appreciate that your vision involved incorporating the NRR into the weapons system; I'd assumed it would just be used for initial reconnaissance. (Did I just miss the post/discussions where you outlined that? Oops.)
Why not? If it's about chakra-sensing, apparently hiding from that is possible. We should spend a prep day on a rune that does it.
We only have 2000 or so chakra to spend (this is assuming we don't have Leaf's support, if we do things are a lot easier) so each rune takes 50 or so and we need Nobs to have enough chakra to function. Call it a total budget of 2000 - Nobs can siphon from the team a bit.
We summon Cannai with 500 and have 1500 left for runic infusions and SC casts.
Hazou can spend 300 CP to summon 6 clones, so say he does that twice, now he can deploy 13 RERs and 5 misc runes (defensive, offensive, sensory).
Why wouldn't we use it for targeting? I perhaps failed to communicate that part lol. But yes any observational runes can be used to target our RERs, Ninja-Radar is perhaps sufficient but something that provides visuals would be desirable too so we can respond to their countermeasures.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
[X] No, go to one of Kagome's rift-sites.
Edit: @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped When the weird minor/benign failures that happen during research lead to living biological-ish creatures (like they have at least once) is it fair to assume that some kind of rift-event was involved?
The only reason it would completely close off the research tree is if the players decide not to vote for it. And if the players are such that they wouldn't countenance the risk, then they wouldn't countenance the risk now either.
What studying a rift might teach us is how to upgrade the random microrift rune into a targeted one (the target being whatever dimension the rift we are studying is located at).
There's two alternate options. 1) We research a targeted microrift rune using whatever rift we find, which allows us to employ taylormade precautions instead of gambling on an infinite misscast table. 2) We travel in between the Kagome rifts in order to minimize the time spent at a single location.
Edit: @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped When the weird minor/benign failures that happen during research lead to living biological-ish creatures (like they have at least once) is it fair to assume that some kind of rift-event was involved?
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
If it works too slowly. I was imagining something that creates one-off snapshots and needs to be reactivated for each one, not something that creates a live target map that updates at combat speeds.
- Location
- Texas
[X] Cancel Microrift rune, but do something else. (Finish Ninja Radar, use other DoB track for Explosiver, research Banshee Lovers on non-DoB track)
[X] Yes, push ahead with the Microrift rune
[X] No, go to one of Kagome's rift-sites.
Having a microrift-maker on hand might be useful if it turns out we're bad at moving runes and need to make a lot to practice on (instead of trekking around looking for old rifts), but they're pretty equivalent time-wise.
[X] No, go to one of Kagome's rift-sites.
Having a microrift-maker on hand might be useful if it turns out we're bad at moving runes and need to make a lot to practice on (instead of trekking around looking for old rifts), but they're pretty equivalent time-wise.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
Whoops, sorry, forgot to click "post"
This is not a "QM fiat says it's not," this is a "Hazō thinks the probability of high danger is lower than previously assumed." Not something we know. What we know is that no immediately world-ending rift was produced without also being sealed or the danger otherwise defeated. For all we know a very slow killer agent appeared somewhere. One of Konoha's best researchers apparently went very close to wiping out time, according to his best guesses and calculations.
The problem with gambling potentially all life in the universe is that even an infinitesimal risk gives a pretty bad expected value.
Keep in mind, with the world in the state it is, an unattended bladehorror rift could have doomed the world, just slowly. A conservative expectation of 3 bladehorrors an hour and the rift closing by itself in a month would be over 2000 of these things, quite able to whittle down the civilian population in such a way that humanity declines inexorably before sufficient ninja resources are spent finding and killing them. There already was a moment of "the world might have ended from a rift" and we solved it. If we hadn't, odds are this would already have been some sort of game over.
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- Location
- USA
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- He/Him
ponwog90: No.
The original mechanics that we put out said that a Force Dome was unbreakable by any force that Hazō or the team were able to verify. Yes, those mechanics were marked as tentative, but they have not been modified or retracted.
I'm impressed that you're doing this and thank you for it, but I'm a little confused. Kagome said where the rifts were; Hazō made an off-the-cuff guess that it would be about 5 days travel, but he's not looking at a to-scale map, he's working off memories of medieval-quality maps. It's quite feasible that he would be wrong. Or am I misunderstanding what you were doing?
Can someone explain the current overall plan to me? I admit that I'm pretty clueless on it at this point, and a little confused because (to the extent that I understand it) it's not the path I personally would have chosen were I God Emperor EJ, First Among Equals of the Players. @Sir Stompy pointed out to me that I had the research plan wrong, but I am also confused about the overall plan.
Is it:
"Make defensive runes that allow us to bunker up in Leaf, then go back and stay there to do...something."
"Make defensive runes to protect Leaf and offensive runes to kill Akatsuki, drop the defensive ones off in Leaf, take the offensive ones and...something."
"Something else"?
I was going for the humor, that's all.
Did you mean EM or ES? (Elemental Mastery vs Earthshaping). Elemental Mastery takes place over the course of a few seconds -- one or two rounds, IIRC.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
To add to this, people seem to not really be considering that there is a whole category of sealing failures that are worse than Pain becoming the immortal emperor of mankind. Worse than Pain finding a way to successfully retry his ritual even.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
Yeah, what if the sealing failure changed the setting from rational Naruto to rational My Immortal?