[X] Cancel Microrift rune, but do something else. (Finish Ninja Radar, use other DoB track for Explosiver, research Banshee Lovers on non-DoB track)

To be honest, I haven't been keeping up enough with research/understand the research mechanics well enough to say anything more specific with my previous vote; thanks @Kyreneryk for the poke.
 
Edit:

TN 171, I think for 3, and 174 for 5?
130 base + 32.5 -> 33 (2nd) + 8.25 -> 9 (3rd) + 2.25 -> 3 (4th) + 0.75 -> 1 (5th)

So 130/163/172/175/176

Are you rounding at the end of the calculation?
The first one contributes its full TN and each one after that contributes 25% of what the previous one did.
This line made me think that each bonus is rounded up, divided by 4 and that is rounded up to provide the next bonus
 
Not every skill is jonin-level at 60. Physique, Resolve, and Chakra Reserves, for instance, are sometimes in the 30s-40s for less experienced jonin. Technique Hacking is similar, since you need to hit 40 to teach someone and relatively few teachers exist. Elemental ninjutsu also have stunts like Combat Training so that the highest one of a given element boosts the lower ones.
The elemental capped-bonus stunts are accounted for by Oro saying "Fire-style ninjutsu" rather than naming a particular one, it's a 60-slot either way. But I take your point for the rest, especially TH - Oro plausibly could mean something other than "60-slot" by jounin TH

... though then again, could he? The spec-jounin exam for Sealing requires Sealing 60, and the average jounin doesn't know TH at all; it seems reasonable to describe "jounin-level TH" as TH 60 or above, given the precedent from Sealing. Though I guess hackers are more likely to also be combat ninja than sealmasters ...

Anyway. While we're on the topic of Itachi, hypothetical Itachi top-level pyramid given what Oro said. If "jounin-level" for the listed skills means "at least 60", then skills he must have at at least 60 are: [RW/MW/Tai]; Fire Element; TH; genjutsu. Additionally, he presumably has both Athletics and Alertness at at least 60, because it would be silly not to and Oro would probably have mentioned it. That fits in quite nicely with 6 skills above 60, actually.

Genjutsu can be detected by Alertness, so there's reason for Itachi to be genjutsu-capstone - it's not overkill. He probably needs a backup attack method in a 70-slot more than he needs Alertness there, given that some targets are just flat immune to genjutsu, and his reserves are meh so that's probably [RW/MW/Tai]. Therefore, my guess at Itachi's pyramid is:
Genjutsu 8#
Athletics 7#[RW/MW/Tai] 7#
Alertness 6#Fire Element 6#Technique Hacking 6#

130 base + 32.5 -> 33 (2nd) + 8.25 -> 9 (3rd) + 2.25 -> 3 (4th) + 0.75 -> 1 (5th)

So 130/163/172/175/176

Are you rounding at the end of the calculation?

This line made me think that each bonus is rounded up, divided by 4 and that is rounded up to provide the next bonus
I was not rounding partway through my calculation, as a matter of fact. (It may be the correct thing to do in this system, but my entire education has taught me not to and it's not a habit I shake easily.) Still not 175 and 179, though!
 
Otherwise, my main concern is that I suspect this system will not operate effectively at combat speeds. It would be amazing for an alpha strike (at least assuming Kisame has to actually activate his avoid-chakra-sensing and doesn't just have it on all the time), and worth looking into, but REs turn very slowly and I suspect making a seal-based system that tracks quickly enough would be very difficult. (Also, we'd need some way to make sure it didn't shoot at us, or fire an RE at our skytower or something similarly stupid.) We'd likely need multiple runes per target, even with Remote Landmine Explosivers, but that's manageable.
Rather than pivoting to aim individual explosions at hot spots, might be more useful to conceptualize it as a variant of the radar's display function. Observe surrounding chakra => subtract runes and attuned friendlies from internal map => "reveal" the edited map, at 1:1 scale... in the form of runic-explosion-strength kinetic energy, rather than light.
Assuming you do, MARS chains normally start and finish on the same initiative (although we might rule differently in the face of egregiously long chains), so ordinarily all of the REs would be firing at the same time mechanics-wise. As such, all of the explosions constitute a single attack. On the other hand, MARS chains do have a few milliseconds of lag in them from one segment to the next, so the REs aren't firing *literally* at the same time. In essence, the air explodes and then a few milliseconds later it explodes again, then again, etc. Not sure that makes sense by physics but sure whatever.
Currently to my understanding we use MARS as an actual chain - MARS 1 triggers MARS 2 and effect A, MARS 2 triggers MARS 3 and effect B, and so on. If we specifically wanted a large number of effects to go off as close as possible to simultaneously, it would make more sense to set them up as a forking tree:
MARS 1 triggers MARS 2 and 3,
MARS 2 triggers 4 and 5, MARS 3 triggers 6 and 7,
4 triggers 8 and 9, 5 triggers 10 and 11, 6 triggers 12 and 13, 7 triggers 14 and 15,
8 triggers effects A and B, 9 triggers C and D, 10 triggers E and F, 11 triggers G and H, 12 triggers I and J, 13 triggers K and L, 14 triggers M and N, 15 triggers O and P - total of sixteen effects in as many milliseconds as a conventional chain would need for four, with significantly less (and possibly zero) time between the first visible effect and the last.

Not arguing for any change to the mechanics, to be clear, just pondering edge cases.
 
Rather than pivoting to aim individual explosions at hot spots, might be more useful to conceptualize it as a variant of the radar's display function. Observe surrounding chakra => subtract runes and attuned friendlies from internal map => "reveal" the edited map, at 1:1 scale... in the form of runic-explosion-strength kinetic energy, rather than light.
May I interest you in my Target Painter Rune proposal?
As an additional rune (series) idea, which is a bit out there in terms of viability but might work:

Life Illuminator Rune
Rune

Creates a halo of light around living things with chakra in the (large) AoE. Should hopefully be easy, but should research it separately to make sure.

Target Painter Rune
Rune

This rune creates a halo of light around living things with chakra in the (large) AoE, except those whose chakra signatures have been input into the rune (ideally at any time after creation, but during creation is fine if that's what makes it doable).



If this works, it would then lead into making a Target Painter Rune with some highly damaging effect (if possible), which we could make our own fighters untargeted by. Might not work, of course, but possibly worth investigation.

Currently to my understanding we use MARS as an actual chain - MARS 1 triggers MARS 2 and effect A, MARS 2 triggers MARS 3 and effect B, and so on. If we specifically wanted a large number of effects to go off as close as possible to simultaneously, it would make more sense to set them up as a forking tree:
MARS 1 triggers MARS 2 and 3,
MARS 2 triggers 4 and 5, MARS 3 triggers 6 and 7,
4 triggers 8 and 9, 5 triggers 10 and 11, 6 triggers 12 and 13, 7 triggers 14 and 15,
8 triggers effects A and B, 9 triggers C and D, 10 triggers E and F, 11 triggers G and H, 12 triggers I and J, 13 triggers K and L, 14 triggers M and N, 15 triggers O and P - total of sixteen effects in as many milliseconds as a conventional chain would need for four, with significantly less (and possibly zero) time between the first visible effect and the last.

Not arguing for any change to the mechanics, to be clear, just pondering edge cases.
I thought we did it as a tree already? Hard to see why we wouldn't, it's the same number of seals either way.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Paperclipped on Oct 26, 2024 at 2:25 PM, finished with 190 posts and 33 votes.


Voting is closed.
 
If "jounin-level" for the listed skills means "at least 60", then skills he must have at at least 60 are: [RW/MW/Tai]

He likely has a main combat skill from these, Athletics and Alertness at 60 or so, and the Jonin Combat Training stunt. His secondary combat stats (jutsu aside) probably clock somewhere in the mid to high 40s or a bit above that depending on how much he's carried by any innate Sharingan buffs to the number.

I don't think there is actually much utility to raising all three of them sky high. Even if you were swimming in XP like Scrooge McDuck, theres not much advantage after you combine RW with one of the melee skills. I would guess at best he has RW and MW high as a baseline, because of this. Magic sword and all.
 
He likely has a main combat skill from these, Athletics and Alertness at 60 or so, and the Jonin Combat Training stunt. His secondary combat stats (jutsu aside) probably clock somewhere in the mid to high 40s or a bit above that depending on how much he's carried by any innate Sharingan buffs to the number.

I don't think there is actually much utility to raising all three of them sky high. Even if you were swimming in XP like Scrooge McDuck, theres not much advantage after you combine RW with one of the melee skills. I would guess at best he has RW and MW high as a baseline, because of this. Magic sword and all.
I guess the Combat Training stunts mean that "weapons skills" and "hand-to-hand combat" only need one 60-slot
If it wasn't clear, [RW/MW/Tai] means one of RW, MW, or Tai, with the other two at the softcap as you describe.
 
May I interest you in my Target Painter Rune proposal?
You certainly may! Injurious levels of beyond-blue light could turn that into a superb imitation of a sealing failure. Hidan probably laughs at sunburn on his bone marrow, but accumulating symptoms would soon chase away anyone sane, as well as popping shadow clones and summons. Follow-up explosions, with the same targeting criteria, at intervals calculated to resemble earthquake aftershocks, might buy as much time as we need to move the rift while also both preserving the illusion of a natural occurrence and sparing innocent bystanders.
There's a risk Kisame could sneak in, but I don't think he'd bother if it looks like the zone of doom is steadily clearing up on its own, since he doesn't have the sealing expertise to assess the rift's condition anyway.
 
The Gouketsu's reputation for powerful explosions is well-established and Itachi had previously shown he thinks of Hazou as "this guy who keeps inventing things that kill Akatsuki members". They know Hazou knows about the rift, and it should be obvious that we went missing in order to do something about it.

There's a couple orders of magnitude difference between our usual 'lots of explosives' and the kind of thing I'd want to hit the rift site with.
That said, the base rate of 'Gōketsu Hazō comes up with something previously thought impossible' is definitely at least once per lifetime from Akatsuki's perspective, so I think you've conviced me on the overall point, that they should reasonably consider us a more likely explanation than a seal failure.

"Any of the others!" Kagome-sensei said. "I know two- no, three that killed the stinking idiots I used to work with. There's one in northern Lightning country, another in Sky, and the last one is at a black site on one of the Haran Bay islands. I only heard about that one though, I don't know exactly where it is, but we could find it. None of them are occupied, probably. Why not use one of those?"

Called it:

A somewhat longer shot, but if that doesn't work for some reason we could see if anyone knows the site of a defunct seal research facility - rifts seems to not be too rare as a type of seal failure, and a rift scar might last indefinitely.

(Though I'd been primarily thinking that their might be a former home of a sealmaster clan - it stands to reason that some clan compounds got abandoned at the start of the village era, and some of them would've had seal research sites, and I'd thought sites Kagome was familiar with were more likely to ones Cloud was still using.)
 
don't work with MARS but there's no reason you couldn't research such a variant

Or research RARS, and not need to research MARS-compatible variants of individual runes!

I have updated the PLAYERS - Known Seals and Runes doc with all runes that Hazou has so far researched. Could I request that someone compile the list of seals that Hazou has researched that are not currently on the doc as well?

I've continued to keep my fork of Known Seals up to date
 
The Force Dome rune attempts to create a spherical barrier around itself. It will cut through/displace dirt/sand/trees/etc but not bedrock. This is not a viable attack method against people, since the barrier is too thin to properly target and forms over the course of a short time.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Does this mean that setting up a Force Dome on a SkyTower would provide protection in all possible angles? Many of us thought that we would have to set up two Force Domes and have one be upside-down.
 
The current Remote Explosive Runes (REs) don't work with MARS but there's no reason you couldn't research such a variant. Assuming you do, MARS chains normally start and finish on the same initiative (although we might rule differently in the face of egregiously long chains), so ordinarily all of the REs would be firing at the same time mechanics-wise. As such, all of the explosions constitute a single attack. On the other hand, MARS chains do have a few milliseconds of lag in them from one segment to the next, so the REs aren't firing *literally* at the same time. In essence, the air explodes and then a few milliseconds later it explodes again, then again, etc. Not sure that makes sense by physics but sure whatever.

Explosions from any source (seals, runes, jutsu…) start from a point and radiate outwards. As has been shown, runes have small and unpreventable variances in them caused by their structure and their infusion process. As such, two REs that hit the same zone won't detonate in precisely the same location – they will be "somewhere towards the middle of the zone, but not literally the precise geometric center". That means that a piece of cover that protects against the first explosion might be less effective against the second one which comes from a slightly different direction.

Putting these facts together, victims of a group of REs will make one dodge roll against any number of REs fired on the same MARS chain, but the TN will be based on how many REs there are.

Regardless of whether it's tags or jutsu or runes, multiple explosions of equivalent strength going off on the same initiative compound with rapidly diminishing returns. The first one contributes its full TN and each one after that contributes 25% of what the previous one did. So:

  • 1 RE: TN 100/80/60/40 => +100 / + 80 / + 60 / +40
  • 2 RE: TN 125/100/75/50 => +25 / +20 / +15 / +10
  • 3 RE: TN 132/104/79/53 => +7 / +4 / +4 / +3 (round up 6.25, 4, 3.75, 2.5)
  • 4 RE: TN 134/105/80/54 => +2 / +1 / +1 / +1 (round up 1.75, 1, 1, 0.75)
  • 5 RE: TN 135/106/81/55 => +1 / +1 / +1 / +1
  • 6+ RE: no further mechanical bonus
(Note: We would prefer not to put in the brainpower to figure out how to handle a barrage of explosives of unequal strength, but we will if it's absolutely necessary.)


No, it does not. All the explosions get grouped together as specified above – if Hazō fires 3 and Kei fire 2 then you get the "5 runes" version, and if Hazō fires 3 and Kei fires 3 then you still get the "5 runes equivalent" version.

We're going to make an exception to the normal ambush rules for this situation:

All explosions that happen sufficiently close together happen before Akatsuki can react, and get grouped as above. After that we are into combat and everyone responds on their initiative. Thus, if Hazou and Kei are staggering their attacks:

  • Hazō's Alertness (and therefore initiative) is 36
  • Kei's Alertness (and therefore initiative) is 49
  • Sasori's Alertness is HDK but probably higher than 49

Hazō opens combat by firing 5 REs, which collectively hit at 135. That is a single attack that happens before combat. As soon as it is resolved, combat starts. Sasori moves, then Kei fires 5 more runes which collectively hit at 135 (assume no delay for Runic Explosives firing), then Hazō moves again.

If instead Hazō and Kei fire simultaneously then their attacks will both hit before Akatsuki moves, but diminishing returns says that you still only get the effect of 5 runes hitting together. (This is a repeat of what's stated above, just for clarity.)



No, it does not. All the explosions get grouped together.


Yes, it does. Hidan and Sasori likely have Alertness high enough that they can move after the first explosion, so they would dodge 1 Runic Explosive, then take their turns. Further Runic Explosives would be rolled separately and may hit them, but not necessarily if they move, bunker up so the explosion hits their bunker first, etc.
Wow, this is better than I expected for the ruling! Thanks, y'all!

So we don't get to hit them with infinite explosives works *during* the surprise round, but it sounds like Mari-clones can buff up with Pangolin Flash and hit them prior to their initiative anyway at TN 135.
 
So we don't get to hit them with infinite explosives works *during* the surprise round, but it sounds like Mari-clones can buff up with Pangolin Flash and hit them prior to their initiative anyway at TN 135.
Bear in mind even the Landmine version is likely to still take a combat round to fire, so the Mari-clones would have to start the firing process before combat actually starts and I don't know how the QMs would judge that - they said to assume no delay in this example, so I suspect they haven't figured that part out yet.

Query - what do you mean by us not being able to do "infinite explosives works" in the surprise round? Is it just that we can't make multiple attack rolls? (If not, with Landmine Remote Explosivers we can still hit at on-the-order-of-170 in the surprise round, even if it's only a single attack roll, which is enough to kill anyone with defences less potent than Ath 79 and two 4x-multitaggable reflexive buffs.)
 
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Bear in mind even the Landmine version is likely to still take a combat round to fire, so the Mari-clones would have to start the firing process before combat actually starts and I don't know how the QMs would judge that - they said to assume no delay in this example, so I suspect they haven't figured that part out yet.

Query - what do you mean by us not being able to do "infinite explosives works" in the surprise round? Is it just that we can't make multiple attack rolls? (If not, with Landmine Remote Explosivers we can still hit at on-the-order-of-170 in the surprise round, even if it's only a single attack roll, which is enough to kill anyone with defences less potent than Ath 79 and two 4x-multitaggable reflexive buffs.)
Yeah I just mean we can't make multiple attack rolls without entering initiative.

I'm still refusing to make assumptions as to us being able to make explosiver runes to our tastes. But if we can that just makes it easier.
 
Yeah I just mean we can't make multiple attack rolls without entering initiative.

I'm still refusing to make assumptions as to us being able to make explosiver runes to our tastes. But if we can that just makes it easier.

Kagome's shaped charge seal is much deadlier than a standard issue explosive tag, right? If explosive tags correspond to the full-strength explosive rune Hazou can currently make, that's promising.

Alternatively, the runic equivalent of Kagome's implosion seal might work.
 
Kagome's shaped charge seal is much deadlier than a standard issue explosive tag, right? If explosive tags correspond to the full-strength explosive rune Hazou can currently make, that's promising.

Alternatively, the runic equivalent of Kagome's implosion seal might work.
Implosion seals are TN 50 vs the TN 40 of normal explosives, but the shaped charges aren't a higher TN. However it does let him use them as a TJ buff
 
  • Yoink the Rift ourselves - Explosively:
    • Blow up everything and everyone at the rift site.
      • Gee, we'll need some firepower to do this and not have it be an absolute hail mary of a play.
    • Yoink the rift, squirrel it away somewhere they arent likely to find anytime soon, run like mad.
      • Gee, we'll need runes that do this faster than molasses.
  • Yoink the Rift ourselves - Stealthily:
    • Yoink the rift, squirrel it away somewhere they arent likely to find anytime soon, run like mad.
      • Gee, we'll need to somehow do this without giving the game away. So rift runes, but better than whatever Oro was cooking up, or something else that makes this viable (pinching together space between 100 miles of land or something like that, for instance).
For moving the rift or yoinking it, how are we getting around the fact that the runes themselves move extremely slowly? If the max speed you can move a rune is a slow walking pace, it's pretty much impossible to yoink the rift, no?

What's the plan if we can't find a solution to the rift moving faster than a slow walking pace?


Disavow above


Sidenote, what are people's opinions on closing the rift if it looks like we're gonna lose? Or just in general?


Reasons in favor:
1. It stops Akasuki from being able to conquer the world and prevents Akasuki from being much of a world ending threat. (For now)
2. If the rift is closed, there's no time crunch.
3. We get near infinite time to research crazy runes, seals, technique hacking, Minato Seal, etc and get the breathing room to level up to S rank.

Reasons against:
1. We might be unable to find the death revival dimension again and Jiraiya won't have his full memories.


Obvious Counterpoint I don't think the thread has grappled with:
1. Once we win, become God, crush Akasuki, and have infinite time for research, etc, do we really believe that we'll be unable to find the death dimension again? That seems, overly pessimistic, to say the least.
2. This argument is even stronger, as we're the only people in history with runes that open dimensional portals. Nobody's ever had the tools to go dimension hopping before! You don't think Hazo with 30 years of focused effort could succeed?



Any strong arguments against our Backup-Backup-Hail Marry, We're Fucked With A Capital F Plan, being:
1.Close the rift
2. Lighthouse and grind
3. Crush Akasuki the boring way
4. Figure out portal hopping later?


Seems better than Akasuki reviving all their friends, getting a bunch of undying S rankers and ruling the world no? And praying we might get to see Jiraiya? Or we can sweet talk Akasuki into being nice to us after we went missing?
 
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Poll:

[X] [Poll] I have no major objections to closing the rift if it looks like we're gonna lose.
[X] [Poll] I have major objections to closing the rift, even if it looks like we're gonna lose.
 
the max speed you can move a rune is a slow walking pace, it's pretty much impossible to yoink the rift, no?
No. Oro's rift seals dislodge the rift, push it in a direction, and then catch it (iirc). None of those steps require the Lithoseal Runes to move at any speed at all.
 
What's the plan if we can't find a solution to the rift moving faster than a slow walking pace?
Move the planet around it at a faster pace.

But yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we need walk at rune movement pace, Oro's rift runes move a rift from point A to point B after spatially dislodging it IIRC.
 
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