I do like Mangekyou Iron Nerve, doing a base increase of Iron Nerve abilities, to 3*Resolve's AB. Then one (or maybe it's only) technique is taijutsu download. See a single movement of a style, "predict" and download the entire style.

And then, to not clutter things mechanically, it's just an addition to the MIN Taijutsu boost per taijutsu style/set of movements copied (allowing for eldritch monsters).

Some have expressed concerns that it raise quickly at first to say a +6 and then taper off so you don't reach +20 even in old age, but I could also see it being super high to match the Mangekyou Sharingan.
 
Speaking personally on where to go from here.

1. Noburi is my bro. Losing him in the next iteration the story takes would suck.
2. Short of total victory, 702 was a meaningful, beautiful ending to Hazō's story. Everything was fairly earned, from scraping survival by his fingernails in the woods to playing kingmaker in global politics. Feel strongly against stepping on or cheapening his ending. A continuation without meticulous guard rails - Hazō playing by simulationist rules - risks exploding on the launch pad. On balance, feels safer to start a fresh character.
3. Moving to a new PC or not, my preference is heavier roleplay focus. Helping a character with opinionated inner monologue, strong convictions re: what they want + why they want it accomplish their goals instead of deciding goals for them - aside from major branching choices.
3A. New character wish list. Jōnin. High level in a secret organization - knows all the forbidden lore. To get our old team back in the story, new PC is on a mission to kidnap or hunt them down before they set off deadman's switches.
3B. If Hazō's knowledge base must be carried forward, a memory stealing bloodline user from the secret org eating one of Hazō's SC in the chaos after the final fight checks that box.
4. Hell Arc. Hell portals open up, swallowing every population center. The Great Seal fails, wiping out or fundamentally changing the 7th Path. Are the Pure Lands and Human Path undergoing convergence? Did Orochimaru kicking the rift make the Hell King big mad? Losing years of accumulated worldbuilding would sting, but Hell Arc wipes the slate clean for simpler simulation going forward and justifies changes to long standing rules as the chakra of two dimensions mixes. Change from chakra costs to per encounter powers to simplify combat. Tweak ninjutsu and seals to always apply to relevant rolls to never have to decide on the fly. Sky is the limit.
  • Anything you consider a structural problem in the quest -- mechanics, balance, misaligned player/QM incentives, etc
  • Anything you consider a problem / unappealing in the narrative -- difficulty too high, don't like the Akatsuki plotline, whatever
Plot summaries when new arcs start would be nice so everyone is on the same page about what relevant details are being used to reach decisions. Thinking of the Conclave arc. Hopefully not much extra work when those details are being gathered to write the arc anyway.

Felt like FOOM and plot necessitated research warped everything in the narrative around them. Always being incentivized to be near large sources of chakra and have a research track running limited other fun things we could be doing - out interacting with the world. Fixes? Average out research and training behind the scenes without having to spend character time on them. It should feel like there is a training fairy and a research fairy on our shoulders with no way to speed them up or slow them down outside of extraordinary circumstances. Clever training hacks give a flat bonus or multiplier to XP rewards. Research is a progress bar that returns intermediate products as it fills up, max effect and time spent decided by skill level - with special break points to take on harder challenges for customized or better results. No bookkeeping mindset.

Dumb, unpopular opinions of a many time voter.
 
  • Anything you consider a structural problem in the quest -- mechanics, balance, misaligned player/QM incentives, etc
  • Anything you consider a problem / unappealing in the narrative -- difficulty too high, don't like the Akatsuki plotline, whatever
  • Anything you would find especially exciting to happen in the near future -- punch Oro in the face, go to the afterlife, go to the other Paths, etc
  • Reactions to what other people have said on these topics
  • Whatever else comes to mind
In terms of mechanics, I feel like there's like, too much of them. Simplifying some or all feels like it should substantially improve the enjoy-ability of the quest, even at the cost of some vermislitude. Does Research need to be rolls? It could just be a progress bar.

In balance terms it feels like Hazo has faced an excessively escalator spiral while only having linear increases in personal power. This resulting in plans simply revolving around what I feel are basically rule hacks with Superchillers, Rune nukes, and so forth. I feel the QMs probably should have fiat said that EM Nuke or even more broadly that physics-based nukes simply doesn't work, as opposed to going with it. Yes, I feel you should occasionally go and take back some rules you've provided out instead of sticking with them to their logical conclusion.

I'm actually not really a fan of necromancy and the afterlife plot, except and unless it is treated and used a quest-concluder. Similar opinion on time travel.

Maybe it feels wrong for Hazo to get powerups but on my part, idk, Hazo has in-universe gone through 2 years of training from hell. On deeper consideration I think EXP/Day really should be remodeled, and instead it should be EXP/Plotline or EXP/Achievement. Maybe 100 or 300 EXP when we kill a Jonin or 500 EXP as 'quest reward' for defeating the Dragon seems unsimulationist but TBH it's like a lot more fun and aligns incentives towards 'do interesting things'. The 'correct' way to play out an EXP/Day system is really lighthousing, and it doesn't have to be Research Lighthousing either.

Oro in the update where he killed Hazo basically said 'yo you idiot you should have lighthoused for Yes years', and the sad part is that it's kind of like, accurate in mechanical terms. The optimal and extremely unfun solution really was for Hazo and co to lighthouse Kagome-style with EXP/Day and occasional unstagnations until he was a Jonin. We've effectively been playing suboptimally because it's more fun and we want to engage in the plot threads provided by the QMs. Something needs to give way.
 
Hm... if we were to use the Mangekyo Iron Nerve as the single parsimonious change, I can see that working fairly well, though it's not quite as suited to Hazou's present circumstances. The Jashin option provides a canon-supported power that would justify both Hazou's survival and in-person combat participation down the line, while directly enabling a viable Afterlife escape if we want to go that route. I'm not certain we could elegantly do all that with the Mangekyo Iron Nerve.

The issues any change should ideally address are:

*Hazou must be able to reliably participate in peer-level combats without the risk of death or being crippled for IRL months by a Severe. He should fairly quickly approach jounin level; there are simply way more interesting adventures possible as a jounin, and it's been nine freaking years. He shouldn't become an S-rank combatant because that would elide too much interesting content, but I feel like he's had plenty of chunin-tier adventures, having been chunin-level for like 500 chapters. Yuno-level combat power with great defenses would strike a good balance of risk-reward.
*Simulation burden on the QMs must be greatly simplified
*Incentives should be structured to actively go out and explore / adventure in the world rather than lighthousing. To a large degree this has already been addressed by the FP tax on prep days, but Runes are so powerful it bears keeping in mind.

I agree with @Inferno Vulpix that, just as the Iron Nerve is a mutated, limited and inwards-turned Sharingan, so should its Mangekyo evolution be an imperfect mirror of its Uchiha brother's. There are several paradigms to interpret the powers of the Mangekyo Sharingan:

*Ultimate Three Ninja Arts - Tsukiyomi, the ultimate genjutsu; Amaterasu, the ultimate ninjutsu; Susano'o, the ultimate taijutsu
*Ultimate Offense, Defense, Utility - Amaterasu / Kakashi's Kamui, the ultimate offense; Susano'o / Obito's Kamui, the ultimate defense, Tsukiyomi / Combined Kamui, the ultimate utility
*Ultimate Self-Expression - Uchiha of the power-seeking Madara's line received the ultimate three ninja arts; Shisui the peacemaker received the ultimate 'diplomatic' tool; Obito the failure received the ultimate form of isolation

The Iron Nerve reflects only the "Copy" component of the Copy-Wheel Eye, with its domain of acquisition limited to the user's own movements (though if connected to another nervous system, would probably be able to access their entire history of movements - Oro would likely have wanted to investigate this). In terms of rough power level, it makes intuitive sense for me that the full powers of the Mangekyo Iron Nerve would be slightly weaker than the powers of a single Mangekyo eye - but, with the stress being distributed across the entire body, the physical cost is attenuated as well.

With that in mind, here's a proposal for Hazou's Mangekyo Iron Nerve. All numbers are preliminary and should be adjusted up/down for balance:

Mangekyo Iron Nerve
Pre-requisites: Kurosawa bloodline, Resolve 60, TYS 10+, suffer otherwise-fatal physical damage from a betrayal
Replaces the Iron Nerve

*The Iron Nerve user's natural talent in movement, hand-eye coordination, and kinesthetic arts of all kinds is augmented to a profound degree, comparable to the gulf between three-tomoe and Mangekyo Sharingan. Any Skill that benefitted from the Iron Nerve's +3 inherent bonus now benefits from a [+big number] inherent bonus instead.
*The user gains one power reflective of the Mangekyo paradigms and suited to their personality. Examples:

*True Iron (Ultimate Defense, Ultimate Taijutsu): The user's entire nervous system becomes self-reliant and incredibly resilient, no longer dependent on surrounding biological processes. It produces its own chakra, being in all ways independent from the outside corpus. The user ignores physical Consequences that do not directly inflict damage upon this augmented nervous system, which has durability greatly scaling with the user's Resolve (Armor = Resolve AB, Stress Track = substitute Resolve for Physique; enemies unaware of the character's nature may inflict no damage if they attack nonvital organs). The intention is that the user is incredibly hard to put down for peer-level combatants, and well capable of surviving a defensive battle against superior opposition - though it does not suffice against truly devastating attacks like Amaterasu. With such resilience as this, one might even survive one's entire chakra system exploding!
-Like a zombie, damage to non-critical processes can be horrific yet remain almost-purely cosmetic. The user can develop techniques related to the growth, manipulation and alteration of their nervous system - think of Kimimaro Kaguya, but with chakra-metal nerves instead of bone. Examples include: rapidly regrowing damaged nerve segments, swords and nets made of nervous mesh, firing nerve tendrils into an opponent's body in order to hijack their physical movements, nerve tripwires that can be used to conduct Lightning jutsu, and (at the apex of development) straight-up downloading themselves into the CNS of their foe. This is represented by the Nerve Control skill, which is half-cost under Resolve. Breaking a combat stagnancy barrier grants the character 100 XP that may only be invested in the Nerve Control skill.
-Perhaps this was the true origin of Kagome's conception of the lupchanz...
-As a three-dimensional chakra-conductive structure, Hazou might be able to eventually form Runes out of his own nervous system, though this would require levels of Nerve Control commensurate to the complexity of the Rune in question. Now that's metal - a true S-Rank trick born of the natural synergy between one's inborn gifts and hard-won skills.
-This power offers a justification for Hazou's survival (for Human Path quest), or a source of shielded chakra regeneration and eventual runic substrate (for Afterlife quest)

*Sheer Nerve (Ultimate Utility, Ultimate Genjutsu): The user enters a state of massively accelerated cognition within which they have perfect control of themselves and their chakra. This defeats any hostile genjutsu placed upon the user, as well as any hostile effect that could be resisted by Resolve; jutsu on the level of Tsukiyomi may contest this with an opposed check, though breaking through would require deific levels of power (Resolve x2 vs Genjutsu).
-While in this state the user is capable of flawlessly performing any movement or chakra manipulation that their body is theoretically capable of and which their mind can conceptualize. This grants [+big number] to all actions which could see their results improved by mental acceleration, perfect coordination and perfect chakra control, stacking where relevant with the inherent bonus of the Mangekyo Iron Nerve. This state is temporary and remaining in it for longer than a few objective minutes will inflict Mild physical and mental consequences; each time ladder up will increase the severity of the consequences by one tier.
-Alert, Ath, and Tai are all affected by the [+big number] buff, so this makes Hazou jounin-tier in a pinch. It's also applicable to Medical Ninjutsu, Technique Hacking, (probably) Minatosealing, Calligraphy, Carving, Earthshaping, and any other skill that relies on fine control and precision over raw might.
-The Sheer Nerve state can be flicked on/off for very brief periods for only a marginal cost in chakra. Perhaps this was the seed of Hazou's improvisational genius, only now flowered into an ability under conscious control.
-Primarily mental skills can be trained under the intense time dilation, if one has access to a relevant corpus of knowledge or teacher with super-speed. The user can basically read and memorize texts as quickly as they can turn the page, as each objective second is subjective minutes in their experience.
-This power doesn't really offer any justification for Hazou's survival, though it would probably be really useful in Afterlife quest if the memory-trading concept gains traction, as Hazou would be able to process foreign memories at extremely accelerated rates.
 
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It's all fascinating as a possibility but in particular this bit feels inspired:

*True Iron (Ultimate Defense, Ultimate Taijutsu): The user's entire nervous system becomes self-reliant and incredibly resilient, no longer dependent on surrounding biological processes. It produces its own chakra, being in all ways independent from the outside corpus. The user ignores physical Consequences that do not directly inflict damage upon this augmented nervous system, which has durability greatly scaling with the user's Resolve (Armor = Resolve AB, Stress Track = substitute Resolve for Physique; enemies unaware of the character's nature may inflict no damage if they attack nonvital organs). The intention is that the user is incredibly hard to put down for peer-level combatants, and well capable of surviving a defensive battle against superior opposition - though it does not suffice against truly devastating attacks like Amaterasu. With such resilience as this, one might even survive one's entire chakra system exploding!
-Like a zombie, damage to non-critical processes can be horrific yet remain almost-purely cosmetic. The user can develop techniques related to the growth, manipulation and alteration of their nervous system - think of Kimimaro Kaguya, but with chakra-metal nerves instead of bone. Examples include: rapidly regrowing damaged nerve segments, swords and nets made of nervous mesh, firing nerve tendrils into an opponent's body in order to hijack their physical movements, nerve tripwires that can be used to conduct Lightning jutsu, and (at the apex of development) straight-up downloading themselves into the CNS of their foe. This is represented by the Nerve Control skill, which is half-cost under Resolve. Breaking a combat stagnancy barrier grants the character 100 XP that may only be invested in the Nerve Control skill.
-Perhaps this was the true origin of Kagome's conception of the lupchanz...
-As a three-dimensional chakra-conductive structure, Hazou might be able to eventually form Runes out of his own nervous system, though this would require levels of Nerve Control commensurate to the complexity of the Rune in question. Now that's metal - a true S-Rank trick born of the natural synergy between one's inborn gifts and hard-won skills.

Hazou with the nerves exposed from wounds and still continuing to chase his prey (Orochimaru, one day) is metal and horrifying, he'd be giving TYS out to folk like candy.

Kagome might never look us in the eye again if we hack someone o_O to install and take stuff…

This is some forked up Sage stuff out of his nightmares, I love it.

Coming back from the dead and being a little wrong seems fun. It's not in the way they expected with Oro but he left a mark on Hazo in a different way by enabling this transformation.

Runes formed inside your body sounds like an incredible and hard won culmination of talents unique to Hazou. Perhaps minato-sealing aids to make this possible or better. I see it as a late game thing that puts Hazster in firmly S-Class territory for direct combat.
 
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As rad as those ideas are, I'm not really looking for quite that degree of powerup.

Just something to nudge us in the direction of being more agentic. Though... huh.

There's something there with the idea of getting some solid but not overpowered afterlife-path-dependent buff that doesn't extend into other paths. Maybe something that we can solidify and improve by traveling the other paths? Hm... Think I'm cooking here.
 
It's all fascinating as a possibility but in particular this bit feels inspired:



Hazou with the nerves exposed from wounds and still continuing to chase his prey (Orochimaru, one day) is metal and horrifying, he'd be giving TYS out to folk like candy.

Kagome might never look us in the eye again if we hack someone o_O to install and take stuff…

This is some forked up Sage stuff out of his nightmares, I love it.

Coming back from the dead and being a little wrong seems fun. It's not in the way they expected with Oro but he left a mark on Hazo in a different way by enabling this transformation.

Runes formed inside your body sounds like an incredible and hard won culmination of talents unique to Hazou. Perhaps minato-sealing aids to make this possible or better. I see it as a late game thing that puts Hazster in firmly S-Class territory for direct combat.

I Just now have the idea of someone just yelling at another person that they didn't kill the nerves and they just see him start crawling towards them
 
For structural issues. In the past we were able to give Kagome a big stack of research ideas, and he narrowed down the viable ones. This allowed us to, in a single update, go from brainstorming idea list to research start of skywalker seals. I don't know why we stopped this, but I would like this back. Just imagine, if we repeated this. Repeatedly coming up with a skywalker tier seal in a single update, spending a research cycle on it, and repeat. We would become power. Below are quotes from chapter. Unfortunately, the action plan link in that chapter is dead.
He pulled a thick sheaf of paper out of his shirt pocket and held them up hopefully.

Noburi groaned at the sight of how thick the stack was.

"Macerator version two, of course we do that first," he muttered, casting the first sheet aside and forcing Hazō to scramble for it. "Have to finish what you start. Unknown seals from the casino? Hah!" More pages went flying. "Unknown stuff from those Mountain stinkers? Harumph!" Throw, toss, hurl. "Confusion seals? Bah. How are you supposed to squish someone with those? If you're throwing seals at him you should be killing him. Clusterbombs? Hmph." Without looking away from the papers he reached inside his jacket and tossed something to Hazō.


You want to modify the Five Seal Barrier to use only one seal? And you want to modify my Lesser Barrier Formation?!

"'Put Air Dome seals on shoes, upside down, modified to be activated by chakra adhesion. Activate them in turn while running, using the chakra adhesion to stick to the Dome so the seals do not become misaligned.' Hrmph." He glowered at his student and hrmped again.
 
As rad as those ideas are, I'm not really looking for quite that degree of powerup.

Just something to nudge us in the direction of being more agentic. Though... huh.
I agree (will expand on this below)

There's something there with the idea of getting some solid but not overpowered afterlife-path-dependent buff that doesn't extend into other paths. Maybe something that we can solidify and improve by traveling the other paths? Hm... Think I'm cooking here.
I'd be OK this and it sounds cool if the QMs are interested. My mind was going in a different direction though

I'm hoping that the 'powerup that is more of a nudge to make us more agent-y' you mention gives us a route to continue pursuing a way to improve the thing in question. Regarding any improved Iron Nerve suggestions, my preference in that direction would probably be that while there are some immediate benefits from it, there should be some sense that it's incomplete or there are aspects of it that Hazou still doesn't understand.

Essentially, mirror what happened to Itachi when his eyes evolved and then he went on a big old journey to understand what happened to him and how to utilize it. Shake down the Kurosawa, find the ruins of the Karasu, find the Ancestral Kurosawa/Uchiha lands and poke around, etc. to more properly 'earn' the improved IN abilities.

So a lot of the more potent suggestions would be more like my preference for the end-state after a journey of self improvement, rather than all being given to us right now.

Essentially, I just want a foot in the door.
 
I do like Mangekyou Iron Nerve, doing a base increase of Iron Nerve abilities, to 3*Resolve's AB.
That would be a +21 for us, replacing a +3. That's basically instantly a boost into jonin tier punching, and also that calligraphy will never matter again in this quest. That feels a bit strong on its own, let alone with other powers. Or at the least, too much like a global power up instead of an aesoteric ability. Especially if, like, this universe's Mangekyou Sharingan's God fire does still have the significant drawback for Itachi (which it might, based on the dragon fight scene), and ours doesn't.

Edit: this isn't meant to target your post, so much as the general big power up pitches that I've been seeing. I like something decent and thematic, but "this instantly changes the gameplan" I'm wary of, unless it's directly tied to something in character/the QMs actively want to write it. I'm not sure "big numbers" is going to be that, as a gift for dying.
 
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That would be a +21 for us, replacing a +3. That's basically instantly a boost into jonin tier punching, and also that calligraphy will never matter again in this quest. That feels a bit strong on its own, let alone with other powers. Or at the least, too much like a global power up instead of an aesoteric ability. Especially if, like, this universe's Mangekyou Sharingan's God fire does still have the significant drawback for Itachi (which it might, based on the dragon fight scene), and ours doesn't.

Edit: this isn't meant to target your post, so much as the general big power up pitches that I've been seeing. I like something decent and thematic, but "this instantly changes the gameplan" I'm wary of, unless it's directly tied to something in character/the QMs actively want to write it. I'm not sure "big numbers" is going to be that, as a gift for dying.
I proposed 3*AB as part of the MIN's powerup suite at one point, but IIRC the context of that was when Paper's proposed internal-chakra-mech was active. So, like, it's still +3 most of the time, but when using the super chakra mech power that +3 spikes to a +21. Still strong, but not as strong as if it was active all the time for free.

And anyhow, now that we've started talking more about other ways to go about the MIN (again, if it proves real in the first place), I'm not so keen on that whole angle of "internal chakra mech that empowers you" anymore either.
 
*True Iron (Ultimate Defense, Ultimate Taijutsu)
I'm very interested in this idea, especially as a feasible way to remain effective in the afterlife. I do have to ask, though, why haven't any other dead Kurosawa unlocked it? Or, if they have, maybe there's some afterlife Kurosawa fortress we can loot/diplomacy for more information about our powers.
As rad as those ideas are, I'm not really looking for quite that degree of powerup.
I like these ideas, but as an endpoint. It's not like Hazou would suddenly gain all these abilities at once. I'd like to see him get only the bare minimum needed get out of this situation alive (surviving chakra network exploding, immune to afterlife chakra drain) and need to explore/loot/test out new abilities in combat to actually unlock them, a little like unstagnations. Point being, you don't have to look at these ideas as a whole, a lot of them can be taken piecemeal.
 
I'm very interested in this idea, especially as a feasible way to remain effective in the afterlife. I do have to ask, though, why haven't any other dead Kurosawa unlocked it? Or, if they have, maybe there's some afterlife Kurosawa fortress we can loot/diplomacy for more information about our powers.

I'd imagine mostly because of all these pre-regs:

Mangekyo Iron Nerve
Pre-requisites: Kurosawa bloodline, Resolve 60, TYS 10+, suffer otherwise-fatal physical damage from a betrayal

Hazou is the only Kurosawa in history as far we know who's had reason to level his Resolve unreasonably high relative to his weight class.

Outside of someone like Hazou you'd need to be at least a Elite Jonin level ninja for it to make sense that you'd level Resolve to 60.

So for other Kurosawa in history to have obtained the bloodline, they'd have:

1. Need to have been somewhere between Elite jonin and S-rank level in power.

2. Have needed to have a TYS score of 10+, which is no guarentee even among Elite jonin and S-rankers.

3. Suffer fatal damage from specifically a betrayal (During the warring clans period they'd presumably have had to have been surprise murdered by another Kurosawa for this condition to trigger) but also specifically in such a way that acquiring something like that True Iron ability kicking in would have saved them (Anything else and they'd still have just died) which is perhaps the biggest ask of them all here as getting hit by Elite jonin to S-ranker level attacks doesn't tend to leave much of a body.

So all in all Hazou becoming the first (Maybe just living) Mangekyo Iron Nerve user and surviving because he lucked out in specifically acquiring that True Iron ability, makes perfect sense from a simulationist point of view due to the sheer numbers of things that need to align just right in order for a living Mangekyo iron Nerve user to be created.

Also if in the distant past there were a handful of dead Kurosawa that unlocked the Mangekyo Iron Nerve, then at this point they probably aren't in the Pure Lands anymore and have since been reincarnated.

(As it currently seems like there's a cycle of reincarnation in this setting)
 
Omake: ItachiQuest's Final Lesson New
A DIFFERENT UPDATE,
FROM ANOTHER TIME, ANOTHER PLACE......

...

"Moreover," Fugaku Uchiha said at last, "if you suspect that high-ranking members of the Uchiha clan are planning high treason against Leaf, do not gormlessly walk alone into a room with the mastermind."

Itachi started to move, but he was too slow. Fugaku snapped his fingers and a dozen Uchiha appeared out of nowhere, from the walls and floor and ceiling, unleashing a barrage of jutsus as would have been sufficient to kill the Sage of Six Paths himself. It was quite overkill, even for a genius like Itachi.

The agony lasted but a moment; Itachi Uchiha was dead before he hit the ground.



Author's Note: As Douglas Adams would say: don't panic. Keep reading the rest of this A/N and things will get better. This is not quest over. This author's note gives a bunch of necessary context and then we're looking for player input on what to do next.

Yes, Itachi is dead. Yes, the true culprit of the Uchiha insurrection you've been investigating was Fugaku all along. You have options on where things go from here, and we'll cover them farther down.

We believe this is the simulationist outcome, for reasons we will describe in detail below...






I TOLD you all! I TOLD YOU ALL IT WAS FUGAKU ALL ALONG. 'oh no he's our father and he loves us and he'd never betray us and all of hidden leaf just to unlock the true power of the sharingan using a forbidden ritual from the age of the sage of six paths' all y'all get btfo. this is what we get for investing everything into punchstats and nothing into socials or research.

lmao the old man played alllllll of us, well fucking done. gg

WE WERE HIS STRONGEST FUCKING JONIN THOUGH! WE DID ALL OF HIS HARDEST MISSIONS FOR HIM!!! fucking killing the golden goose!!!!!!!!

never trust clan heads lmaaaaaaoooooooo. not even your father.

welp. time for a new character, folks. let's play a missing-nin this time. i am sick to hell of village politics and the rigid mission framework where if we take half a week off to investigate a nearby shiny we run the risk of having a bajillion leaf hunter-nin sent after us. fuck that.



...And here we are. As we said above, we're looking for suggestions on what to do from here.

Yes, this will be done via voting but please do not post plans yet.

Let's discuss for at least a day and we'll open voting later. Everything is on the table, so please don't constrain yourself. We are open to continuing the quest with Itachi having survived the ambush somehow, but we do expect that version of the quest would be unwinnable—Fugaku has essentially uncontested control over Hidden Leaf, and would be able to send an arbitrary amount of hunter-nin after Itachi, even if Sasuke was capable of finding Itachi and overpowering Fugaku to help him escape.

We very much do not want to bias discussion but we would like to make clear the size of the possibility space, so we'll say that we're at least open to breaking simulation, rolling back time, and then...

Fugaku decides not to eliminate Itachi for some reason, or...
Not only does the ambush fail, but Itachi wins the fight for some reason, or...
Someone saves Itachi in the nick of time.
In all these situations, we would appreciate your help figuring out the details of how and why it happened.

Discussion time! What to do now?



Look, I'm as invested in this quest as anybody else, I've been here for nearly a decade as well watching us go from genin nobody to terrifying battlefield menace, but maybe it's just time to let Itachi go. This is kind of a fitting end, isn't it? Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that. We took our risks and we lost the gamble.

dude if we just let itachi die leaf is fucked. fugaku's gonna take over and complete his ritual to unlock the true power of the sharingan and everybody we love in leaf is gonna die. sasuke is gonna die.

Meh. Sasuke can go fuck himself. Didn't see him doing us much good when we got ganked now did he? Hell, the whole Uchiha clan can go fuck itself. We pour so much energy and investment into the clan and this is the thanks we get? If we get to retcon this I'm voting we kill the whole fucking Uchiha clan. Let's see how you're going to achieve your ritual NOW, dad.

Okay, hear me out.

The real issue here is that we've never had any time to level anything up but our punching stats.

We've been trapped between a rock and a hard place for the last three hundred or so chapters, because they keep sending us on jonin-level combat missions even though what we really needed for this 'investigate the insurrection' arc was socials and research stats. And that's downstream of how all of the EXP in this game comes from combat. We'd love to sit down and do some technique-hacking or sealmastery, but where would we get the EXP from? There's no system that lets us get EXP just for... training. We have to KEEP fighting powerful enemies, and as we do, the threshold for how strong an enemy has to be to give us EXP keeps rising, so we have to keep dumping EXP into punching to stay above the waterline, and the result is that we've hardly been able to do ANY science whatsoever.

Which results in the absurd outcome where, despite being the most powerful Sharingan user in the whole village, Itachipilot doesn't even know where to begin to guess at what Fugaku's ritual DOES, other than that it's some kind of secret form of the Sharingan. We had neither the socials nor the research stats needed to make any headway, so we had to rely on our dad the clan head to do all the socials and investigations for us, and what do you know, in the world where he's the traitor that gets us all killed!

Here's my proposition for how we solve this.

Firstly, not only do we miraculously survive the attack somehow, but in the process of surviving the attack, we ALSO unlock the true potential of the Sharingan.
Yes, I'm talking about the exact same thing that Fugaku's ritual is attempting to achieve for him. It'd be cosmic irony- in the process of trying to make sure we can't stop him from gaining the power, he inadvertently grants us the power and thus makes us an even more dangerous threat to his plans.

Let's say... Well, Fugaku clearly loves Hidden Leaf. I don't think that's feigned- I think he's the megalomaniac kind of villain who thinks that taking over is what the village needs to survive. So what if we say... that the true power of the Sharingan is connected to the idea of, killing someone you love and want to protect, with your own two hands?

So, what if we say, that just before we get killed in the Uchiha ambush, we manage to move just fast enough to kill our dad- he's a social spec, we already know we can beat him- and that unlocks the true form of the Sharingan for US, and that's how we survive the oncoming ambush.

What might the true form of the Sharingan allow us to do? Here are the necessary constraints:

- It has to give us the ability to do research more effectively. For instance, a Genjutsu-technique in which time passes much faster than in the real world would be a sufficient narrative justification to give us 'training EXP'. We can stay in the Genjutsu and suffer self-inflicted Mental Consequences in exchange for gaining EXP that isn't constrained by the bottleneck of having to fight dangerous enemies.

- It has to be powerful enough to let us survive a dozen Uchiha ambushing us all at once. Maybe it vomits out incredibly powerful flames that can't be put out or something? That sounds like a power that'd be broken enough to get us out of this situation.

Now, obviously we can't just have the power with no downsides, so maybe we can say that, since we didn't do the ritual preparations that Fugaku (presumably) has been doing beforehand, our super-Sharingan is imperfect and thus damages itself whenever we use it. This gives us a great plot-hook as well; we have to figure out the Deep Lore that the GMs keep hinting about, in order to repair our gradually-decaying super-Sharingan in time. This will incentivize us to invest into research stats in order to keep ourselves intact.

Here's my proposal for a power that might fit these constraints:

MANGEKYO SHARINGAN

- Prerequisites: Sharingan 60, TYS 10+, killed one of your closest loved ones with your own hands...
 
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If we're going to go MIN, we should make it a gift specifically from Jashin; that is to say, Jashin gave us his blessing in the form of advanced Iron Nerve abilities, similar to how Hidan's blessing took the form of advanced Blood Release abilities.
 
If we're going to go MIN, we should make it a gift specifically from Jashin; that is to say, Jashin gave us his blessing in the form of advanced Iron Nerve abilities, similar to how Hidan's blessing took the form of advanced Blood Release abilities.

Tbh that feels kinda cheap to me narratively speaking, logically speaking if the Iron Nerve has a Mangekyo equivalent at all, then Hazou dying would just now have triggered it's activation requirements.

Making it entirely a Jashin thing that turns Hazou's Iron Nerve bloodline into a fucked up eldritch version essentially completely destroys the plot hook of deep lore investigating what this Mangekyo Iron Nerve thing is all about, because there wouldn't be any deep lore, it'd just be Jashin deciding to hand Hazou some weird powers.
 
Tbh that feels kinda cheap to me narratively speaking, logically speaking if the Iron Nerve has a Mangekyo equivalent at all, then Hazou dying would just now have triggered it's activation requirements.

Making it entirely a Jashin thing that turns Hazou's Iron Nerve bloodline into a fucked up eldritch version essentially completely destroys the plot hook of deep lore investigating what this Mangekyo Iron Nerve thing is all about, because there wouldn't be any deep lore, it'd just be Jashin deciding to hand Hazou some weird powers.
We have no idea if the Iron Nerve's hypothetical advanced form requires the user's death; that's always been an in-joke among the thread and has no basis in MfD canon. We don't even know if Itachi's advanced Sharingan has the same activation requirements as in Naruto canon.
 
We have no idea if the Iron Nerve's hypothetical advanced form requires the user's death; that's always been an in-joke among the thread and has no basis in MfD canon. We don't even know if Itachi's advanced Sharingan has the same activation requirements as in Naruto canon.

I'd argue that we do have some basis, considering that we know that Itachi's Mangekyo Sharigan and it's powers if nothing else still exists.

(Though I'm unclear or whether susanoo is still a thing)

If the QM's choose to have the Mangekyo Sharigan and it's busted abilities still be thing, then it stands to reason that it's unlock requirements are probably still the same seeing as they don't really interfere with simulationism.

And if that's all true then the thread's theory on the Mangekyo Iron Nerve is likely true as well, not because it was always planned out that way, but precisely because it wasn't.

At this point I think we can safely say from experience that due to finite supply of QM Spoons, parts of the setting that Hazou hasn't interacted with before nor is likely to interact with in the forseeable future, are generally for the most part in a undefined limbo position due to a lack of need to spend Spoons on them before that point.

My point is that the Iron Nerve is almost definitely in such a undefined limbo state, as of currently.

Meaning that whatever the QM's decide upon in regards to the hypothetical "Mangekyo Iron Nerve", will retroactively always have been how that works, and depend entirely on how much the QM's like the "Mangekyo Iron Nerve allows Hazo to survive Orochimaru's kill switch" idea. The fact that the idea would be narratively consistent with a lot of other stuff is just a bonus.

It's a real Saga of Legends-esque situation we've found ourselves in, which is pretty cool.

Edit: A quick and dirty summary for those uninformed, Saga of Legends is a mecha setting on Spacebattles where some people possess the power of the "Always Has Been" meme.
 
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If the QM's choose to have the Mangekyo Sharigan and it's busted abilities still be thing, then it stands to reason that it's unlock requirements are probably still the same seeing as they don't really interfere with simulationism.
The canonical unlock requirements do interfere with simulationism as I see it: If the activation requirements for the Mangekyo are the same as in canon, it means that the Uchiha Clan would have been way more powerful than what MfD has depicted them to be, setting up all sorts of ripple effects. Why? Because in canon, the Mangekyo doesn't require you to kill your best friend. It just requires you to see them die. And given the violent war-torn nature of the MfD setting, Uchiha Clan members should have been seeing their friends die all the friggin' time; and consequently unlocking their Mangekyo, again, all the friggin' time. An entire clan of Mangekyo wielders, even if they're individually not as powerful as Itachi, would have wrecked the setting and made a landscape that would be far more Leaf-dominated than has been established at the start of the quest.
 
The canonical unlock requirements do interfere with simulationism as I see it: If the activation requirements for the Mangekyo are the same as in canon, it means that the Uchiha Clan would have been way more powerful than what MfD has depicted them to be, setting up all sorts of ripple effects. Why? Because in canon, the Mangekyo doesn't require you to kill your best friend. It just requires you to see them die. And given the violent war-torn nature of the MfD setting, Uchiha Clan members should have been seeing their friends die all the friggin' time; and consequently unlocking their Mangekyo, again, all the friggin' time. An entire clan of Mangekyo wielders, even if they're individually not as powerful as Itachi, would have wrecked the setting and made a landscape that would be far more Leaf-dominated than has been established at the start of the quest.

That's only if we ignore the other requirements for unlocking the Mangekyo Sharigan, like having a 3 tomoe Sharigan + potentially something in addition to that in MFD specifically, at that point the requirements already become a lot more niche as it'd probably be more or less limited to Jonin level and above Uchiha who've seen their best friend die in battle.

Which is in itself already a big limiting factor as said Uchiha would also have to come out of whatever situation killed their best friend alive themselves.
 
The canonical unlock requirements do interfere with simulationism as I see it: If the activation requirements for the Mangekyo are the same as in canon, it means that the Uchiha Clan would have been way more powerful than what MfD has depicted them to be, setting up all sorts of ripple effects. Why? Because in canon, the Mangekyo doesn't require you to kill your best friend. It just requires you to see them die. And given the violent war-torn nature of the MfD setting, Uchiha Clan members should have been seeing their friends die all the friggin' time; and consequently unlocking their Mangekyo, again, all the friggin' time. An entire clan of Mangekyo wielders, even if they're individually not as powerful as Itachi, would have wrecked the setting and made a landscape that would be far more Leaf-dominated than has been established at the start of the quest.

To be fair, this is the status quo of the Uchiha. They don't make sense and break the series. Remember the tale of Izanami, where the Uchiha somehow abused a reality warping move you can only use twice...so much that someone created a timeloop move you can only use twice to browbeat them into stop abusing said move...that they can only use twice.

And this is somehow in the short time the Uchiha existed, ignoring that they only have 2 eyeballs to sacrifice.
 
That's only if we ignore the other requirements for unlocking the Mangekyo Sharigan, like having a 3 tomoe Sharigan + potentially something in addition to that in MFD specifically, at that point the requirements already become a lot more niche as it'd probably be more or less limited to Jonin level and above Uchiha who've seen their best friend die in battle.
In canon, Kakashi/Obito unlocked their Mangekyo Sharingan in Chapter 604-605, and went from 2-tomoe to 3-tomoe to Mangekyo in the space of a couple of seconds. I would argue that having a 3-tomoe Sharingan is a meaningless distinction in that case, since the Sharingan will force-evolve itself to satisfy the requirement.
Which is in itself already a big limiting factor as said Uchiha would also have to come out of whatever situation killed their best friend alive themselves.
Assuming the Uchiha Clan Elders were aware of the 'see-your-friend-die' requirement, it would be trivial to arrange for Uchiha children to gain very close bonds with disposable civilians, and then arrange for said civilian's murder in front of the child in a way that keeps the child alive.

This is a plot that I have derived within a minute of thinking on how to exploit the "see your friend die" requirement, and while there are certainly flaws in my proposal I have no doubt determined effort could exploit the requirements better than I have here.
 
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