Would you mind making a post summarizing the key points to focus on—and just as importantly, which topics are off-limits? I imagine I'm not the only one struggling with the backlog and feeling unsure about how to participate in a way that preserves QM-spoons.
Sure:

  • No discussion of chapter 702 or anything related to it. We've had enough people telling us that we didn't play fair / were dumb to not remember to have Hazō tell Orochimaru that Hazō had set up a deadman switch even though the players didn't think / didn't vote to do that. There is nothing of value to discuss about ch702 so leave it aside. (Discussion of this bullet point is included in 'anything related to it'.)

Things we would like to hear:

  • Anything you consider a structural problem in the quest -- mechanics, balance, misaligned player/QM incentives, etc
  • Anything you consider a problem / unappealing in the narrative -- difficulty too high, don't like the Akatsuki plotline, whatever
  • Anything you would find especially exciting to happen in the near future -- punch Oro in the face, go to the afterlife, go to the other Paths, etc
  • Reactions to what other people have said on these topics
  • Whatever else comes to mind


I'm personally a big fan of option 3 for many of the reasons outlined previously (incentivizes non-lighthouse, get to see old favorites, sounds fun and novel, etc) but the more I think about it, the less plausible time dilation as a natural function of the Pure Lands sounds to me. To my understanding the current conception of time dilation in the Pure Lands goes along the lines of "Time passes at a rate on the magnitude of ~100:1 for any who are inside of it"
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the time ratio between the afterlife and the Human Path is whatever we say it is and doesn't need to be consistent. Maybe Hazō spends 6 months there but it's only 6 minutes on the HP. At the same time, Jiraiya has been there for ~3 years HP time but maybe it's only been 3 weeks afterlife time.
 
Given the choice, I would prefer to sacrifice as little simulationism as possible, if possible. Rolling back time and doing something different is a possibility, but would feel clunky. It would be nice if there were a way to organically continue from where the chapter ended, although I'm not wedded to it.

With regard to QM preferences, my preference would be some form of Option 2: Hazō survives and continues in the same context, but with legitimate knowledge of Orochimaru's betrayal on which he can now act (as opposed to a rollback and OOC knowledge). That said, I wholly agree that there won't be a better time to reconsider quest fundamentals (unless Hazō gets killed again), and that might mean going for more exotic options for the sake of long-term benefit.

I do like Option 3 (if Hazou keeps DotB in some form) a lot. But taking into account the other options eaglejarl presented and Vel's preference for continuing interaction with the Human Path, here's a semi-minimalist concrete proposal that addresses some structural issues of the quest so far:

*Issue #1 - Hazou is forced into research because the impending worldly events require it (the Great Seal, the Rift, Akatsuki's siege, etc). In general, the stakes are high and this has exhausted spoons from all sides.
*Issue #2 - Hazou cannot do some things that both players and the GMs would find interesting (frequently get into high-stakes fights, for example), because even peer-level fights carry massive risk of death and quest end
*Issue #3 - Simulating even just the most relevant parts of the world is immensely draining on the QMs, long stretches of research exacerbate this

Scenario
*Orochimaru kills Hazou. Hazou's chakra system explodes, reducing his body to a bloodstain. The explosion was loud, his remains destroyed to the point of uselessness, and Orochimaru's reserves of both chakra and time are heavily constrained due to paranoid-level precautions in continuously moving and defending the rift. He departs as quickly as possible.

*As per my earlier post on the Jashin Option, Jashin grants Hazou regeneration for the reasons cited there. Hazou recovers from his otherwise-fatal wounds; slowly at first, but quickly ramping up to Hidan speeds.

*Jashin can see that the trajectory of this coming world war will decrease the aggregate number of souls in the Line, possibly sending the population into a death spiral from which it will not recover. The priority now is preserving Life, not causing death. It informs Hidan not to stand in Hazou's way and to vigorously oppose even Akatsuki if they would impede Hazou, so long as Hazou is generally working to promote life. Jashin will occasionally send Hazou on missions to do so.

*It is no longer practical for Akatsuki to besiege Leaf without grievous losses; Hidan turning coat means Leaf would have (Runes, Cannai, Enma, Tsunade, Naruto, Hidan) versus (Itachi, Kisame, Konan, Sasori, Crow Boss, Shark Boss), plus all of Hidan's inside information on Akatsuki. If Sasori died in the RER barrage then the odds are even worse. The appearance of internal dissent and the lack of a Rift to point to means Akatsuki can't get the rest of AMITY to take military action. Konan can't leave Rain for an extended siege anyway.

Results
*Everything branches off the Jashin intervention point, so this is a fairly parsimonious single change (if we even call it that - the washerman would do something to try to stop the flow of souls from being annihilated, especially if Mari's offscreen preparations are such that eliminating her alone doesn't stop the deadman's switch)
*Hazou's now hard enough to kill that he can be sent into the field, especially on the Seventh Path or against chakra monsters where capture is less of a concern. If he does get captured by anything short of an S-ranker, Hidan will arrive to bail him out in a couple of months.
*The world settles into a stable equilibrium where not much detailed modeling is necessary: Oro is investing all his time and energy ducking the combined efforts of the world to find him and the Rift. Akatsuki can't defeat Leaf and Leaf can't defeat Akatsuki. The other countries are mainly interested in maintaining their defenses. The static nature of Runes means they are mostly useful for static area effects, so Leaf's S-rank defense doesn't translate into offense.
*Jashin requiring Hazou to actively undertake various Uplift projects, plus the FP cost for prep days, means Hazou can't just sit back and research military Runes all day. If Hazou's build is too screwed up to fight effectively, Jashin can offer large XP bonuses for completing his missions.
*Hazou can now focus on lower-stakes or at least less urgent matters like restoring Leaf, general Uplift projects, and figuring out the Greal Seal.
 
Last edited:
I should mention that I would prefer an option which does not buff Hazō more than necessary. Hazō already benefits a lot from OOC buffs (whether those be XP, terrifying player knowledge, or bad balancing of various things on the part of the QMs), and some of the proposals floating around would magnify that considerably. To the extent that the player base as a whole seems to want less simulationism and more fun gaming, I think it's not unreasonable for balance concerns to play a bigger role as well.

Yeah. Obviously as someone who just reads the story only thread my perspective is quite different from people involved directly, I would hate to see a "power up" arc from which Hazo returns much improved and ready to stomp faces. I can see why that's appealing to people making plans and trying to win the setting, but from my POV power-fantasy litrpgs are a dime a dozen on RR, and what's uniquely appealing about MfD is the frankly ingenious ways Hazo manages to make himself relevant despite being much weaker than everyone around. "Went to the afterlife, stacked a bunch of bonuses, now we can punch with the best of them" would be a disappointment. (I'm not expecting that even if there is an afterlife arc, but I felt like some of the comments were eager for something like a power-up)

I am totally in favour of creating alternatives to researchmaxxing (those chapters are more boring to read), and maintaining planner/voter engagement is important and I don't want to dismiss it. Here's hoping for a mutually satisfying approach!
 
Last edited:
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the time ratio between the afterlife and the Human Path is whatever we say it is and doesn't need to be consistent. Maybe Hazō spends 6 months there but it's only 6 minutes on the HP. At the same time, Jiraiya has been there for ~3 years HP time but maybe it's only been 3 weeks afterlife time.

I'm down to hand wave it to esoteric magic bullshit :thumbs-up:
 
Honestly I don't want any additional buffs or shinies for Hazō. Instead I'd just want to be able to level his basic combat stats to high chunnin low jounin level
 
Wow. I thought I had an extensive vocabulary. I didn't even know "callipygous" was a word, let alone what it meant. @Lysbeth Succubus where do you even find these words?
This one I learnt from a segment in a French series from the late 80s called "Palace." The segment was called "Le Professeur Rolin a toujours quelque chose à dire" (Prof. Rolin always has something to say) and in it someone would say a random something devoid of context for this man to pontificate for a few minutes about.
It ranged from confidently nonsensical to correct but needlessly euphuistic.
It's a fun enough word that I'd learn its English version. EJ used "pulchritude," which I would personally consider more of an obscure word, if only because I only heard it for the first time a full decade later
 
Last edited:
QMs have limited spoons. So it makes sense for them to prioritize replying to posts pointing out issues if there are a lot of players expressing they care about the issue. But I wish that if the issue being pointed out is clearly valid with a clear viable solution, then QMs would reply to the post even if only few players have expressed they care.
 
I do like Option 3 (if Hazou keeps DotB in some form) a lot. But taking into account the other options eaglejarl presented and Vel's preference for continuing interaction with the Human Path, here's a semi-minimalist concrete proposal that addresses some structural issues of the quest so far:

*Issue #1 - Hazou is forced into research because the impending worldly events require it (the Great Seal, the Rift, Akatsuki's siege, etc). In general, the stakes are high and this has exhausted spoons from all sides.
*Issue #2 - Hazou cannot do some things that both players and the GMs would find interesting (frequently get into high-stakes fights, for example), because even peer-level fights carry massive risk of death and quest end
*Issue #3 - Simulating even just the most relevant parts of the world is immensely draining on the QMs, long stretches of research exacerbate this

Scenario
*Orochimaru kills Hazou. Hazou's chakra system explodes, reducing his body to a bloodstain. The explosion was loud, his remains destroyed to the point of uselessness, and Orochimaru's reserves of both chakra and time are heavily constrained due to paranoid-level precautions in continuously moving and defending the rift. He departs as quickly as possible.

*As per my earlier post on the Jashin Option, Jashin grants Hazou regeneration for the reasons cited there. Hazou recovers from his otherwise-fatal wounds; slowly at first, but quickly ramping up to Hidan speeds.

*Jashin can see that the trajectory of this coming world war will decrease the aggregate number of souls in the Line, possibly sending the population into a death spiral from which it will not recover. The priority now is preserving Life, not causing death. It informs Hidan not to stand in Hazou's way and to vigorously oppose even Akatsuki if they would impede Hazou, so long as Hazou is generally working to promote life. Jashin will occasionally send Hazou on missions to do so.

*It is no longer practical for Akatsuki to besiege Leaf without grievous losses; Hidan turning coat means Leaf would have (Runes, Cannai, Enma, Tsunade, Naruto, Hidan) versus (Itachi, Kisame, Konan, Sasori, Crow Boss, Shark Boss), plus all of Hidan's inside information on Akatsuki. If Sasori died in the RER barrage then the odds are even worse. The appearance of internal dissent and the lack of a Rift to point to means Akatsuki can't get the rest of AMITY to take military action. Konan can't leave Rain for an extended siege anyway.

Results
*Everything branches off the Jashin intervention point, so this is a fairly parsimonious single change (if we even call it that - the washerman would do something to try to stop the flow of souls from being annihilated, especially if Mari's offscreen preparations are such that eliminating her alone doesn't stop the deadman's switch)
*Hazou's now hard enough to kill that he can be sent into the field, especially on the Seventh Path or against chakra monsters where capture is less of a concern. If he does get captured by anything short of an S-ranker, Hidan will arrive to bail him out in a couple of months.
*The world settles into a stable equilibrium where not much detailed modeling is necessary: Oro is investing all his time and energy ducking the combined efforts of the world to find him and the Rift. Akatsuki can't defeat Leaf and Leaf can't defeat Akatsuki. The other countries are mainly interested in maintaining their defenses. The static nature of Runes means they are mostly useful for static area effects, so Leaf's S-rank defense doesn't translate into offense.
*Jashin requiring Hazou to actively undertake various Uplift projects, plus the FP cost for prep days, means Hazou can't just sit back and research military Runes all day. If Hazou's build is too screwed up to fight effectively, Jashin can offer large XP bonuses for completing his missions.
*Hazou can now focus on lower-stakes or at least less urgent matters like restoring Leaf, general Uplift projects, and figuring out the Greal Seal.
I do like this path forward a lot, but it has the large drawback of leaving Orochimaru absconding with the Rift and cutting off any chance of reviving Jiraiya et al.

If we are deciding a path from which future simulation will follow, I strongly favor one that includes interactions with Jiraiya and Akane.
 
a big afterlife powerup arc (that is not just sitting on the beach and doing kata with Jiraiya and Akane or whoever... and that has minimal direct interactions with any Deus ex Machina stuff or anything of the "You wake up with your giga buffs after a short stay in the graveyard dimension" variety) would be the most narratively satisfying given the current character arcs IMO.

Yeah, afterlife quest should incentivize players to do Fun Shit.
Maybe there are snags in the fabric of the Pure Lands that lead to spirits persisting without fading away as they normally do. When souls that have already partly faded hit a snag, they can bind together in weird jumbled-up mishmashes of the people they used to be. Jashin wants us to clear out the monstrosities. Maybe he rewards us with Luck Points? Or gives us the ability to absorb memories / skills from the spirits we exorcise.

Maybe the snags are temporary or made of some limited resource -- they're kinda like oases in the desert, and so people who have managed to survive in the Pure Lands have learned to hunt for them. So Jiraiya has figured out how to scout for them, and they're natural places for Events to happen (find monsters, interact with other spirits).

Maybe the 'snags' are (or can be turned into) rifts to other Paths, which let the chakra of those paths seep in? Jiraiya's figured out a way to process it, but inefficiently. And then:
a) potential Other Path adventures
b) wanderers & monsters from other path. Maybe we can learn cool Other Path lore or techniques.
c) makes sense that we need to seek these out, we're looking for a rift back home.
d) we get lil' bits of chakra but we have to be super efficient, new optimization challenge! (players can have a little resource optimization, as a treat)

I know lots of active players like sealing cause they've invested hella time in it. Personally I like the idea of being forced to learn a new main trick that's more reliant on Doing Cool Real-World Stuff. Seems more fun for QMs, less lighthouse-inducing (= more fun updates for players).
Fluff it as a new technique Jiraiya figured out, based on whatever chakra-analogue the Pure Lands has? "You aren't the only one who figured out a new sealing paradigm in the last three years, kiddo."

We might need something new in any case. No easy ink or paper in the Pure Lands, no chakra regen so Runes are rarely worth it.

(I wrote this last night and then my computer auto-shutdown and I went to bed. might be behind the blistering pace of this thread!)
 
Last edited:
Things we would like to hear
I will admit certain concerns, though these are in no particular order. I may have more thoughts later on (chronic migraines and headaches are a bitch ;-; ), but this is what I have, off the top of my head. Please read the tone gently. I don't think it comes across as curt or callous, but my head's pounding, so some non-related terseness may have bled through, however accidentally.
  • Plotline acceleration
    • I've maintained that the story has been high intensity since Akane died, and that it feels as though we-the-playerbase have been on various apocalypse timers for a while. The Rift, to get Jiraiya and Akane back before they lose too many memories. The Dragons, before they eat the Seventh Path and come to the Human Path in the full of their power. The Great Seal, which will release ever-more Dragons of increasing strength and esoteric natures. There's no room to breathe, and so burnout happens.
  • Research Plotlines
    • "Sit down and Lighthouse for IRL years" isn't fun for anyone. I think we're in agreement with that, QMs and players. But there's not much we can do to interact with these plotlines other than to research Runes or Seals that will progress those plotlines (RERs, Rift Openers, etc).
    • The various plotlines demand that we neglect Hazou's fundamental stats (Athletics, Alertness, Taijutsu, etc) in favor of research stats, and their secondary stats. So Hazou is locked into a genin-tier combat build, trying to bootstrap himself up to a decent combat level. So this means that, unless we want Hazou to die, the optimal strats are also the least-fun ("send Shadow Clone," "stay behind our Summons and let them fight for us," "hide half a mile away and fire RERs while other ninja fight at close range")
  • Research Incentive Structures
    • We've spent many, many months of in-character time being missing nin. We've wandered to the far edges of the map, climbed the frozen mountaintops of Snow, and waterwalked across the ocean. But we've never stumbled across anything in the same vein as Itachi or the Sannin, despite that's apparently how people get good. We tried to poke at the chakravore corpses, only for Noburi to give us a confused look and tell us that wasn't possible. And we-the-playerbase are confused about how the Sannin's partial path to power ("kill clans, get loot") is viable. How do you punch someone into giving you their Super Jutsu 5000?
    • Often, the greater ROI is to simply... sit down and make our own loot, during which we'll passively generate experience, anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by the new negative incentive of needing FPs to do Difficulty Checks, and to unstagnate every once in a while, but there's no positive incentive to go out on missions. If we want something, there's no "go slay an Alpha Chakra Lion and use its uniquely chakra-conductive blood for a potion that gives you +5 levels to taijutsu," it's "sit down for a week and make Macerator 3.0"
  • XP Incentives
    • I've heard some players say that Hazou's only real sin is being 17, and that if we had had another year or two of XP, we would've been in a much better position to deal with the plots that we were engaging with. In LotRoL and Stormfall, XP is distributed differently, and at an increased rate (a lump sum at the end of each arc, every dozen or so updates, with bonus XP for secret achievements and particularly noteworthy accomplishments).
    • Transitioning MfD to a similar XP Distribution Model would positively incentivize the players to go out and Do Things^tm, rather than sitting down and Lighthousing while passively generating drops of XP in the background.
 
I will admit certain concerns, though these are in no particular order. I may have more thoughts later on (chronic migraines and headaches are a bitch ;-; ), but this is what I have, off the top of my head. Please read the tone gently. I don't think it comes across as curt or callous, but my head's pounding, so some non-related terseness may have bled through, however accidentally.
  • Plotline acceleration
    • I've maintained that the story has been high intensity since Akane died, and that it feels as though we-the-playerbase have been on various apocalypse timers for a while. The Rift, to get Jiraiya and Akane back before they lose too many memories. The Dragons, before they eat the Seventh Path and come to the Human Path in the full of their power. The Great Seal, which will release ever-more Dragons of increasing strength and esoteric natures. There's no room to breathe, and so burnout happens.
  • Research Plotlines
    • "Sit down and Lighthouse for IRL years" isn't fun for anyone. I think we're in agreement with that, QMs and players. But there's not much we can do to interact with these plotlines other than to research Runes or Seals that will progress those plotlines (RERs, Rift Openers, etc).
    • The various plotlines demand that we neglect Hazou's fundamental stats (Athletics, Alertness, Taijutsu, etc) in favor of research stats, and their secondary stats. So Hazou is locked into a genin-tier combat build, trying to bootstrap himself up to a decent combat level. So this means that, unless we want Hazou to die, the optimal strats are also the least-fun ("send Shadow Clone," "stay behind our Summons and let them fight for us," "hide half a mile away and fire RERs while other ninja fight at close range")
  • Research Incentive Structures
    • We've spent many, many months of in-character time being missing nin. We've wandered to the far edges of the map, climbed the frozen mountaintops of Snow, and waterwalked across the ocean. But we've never stumbled across anything in the same vein as Itachi or the Sannin, despite that's apparently how people get good. We tried to poke at the chakravore corpses, only for Noburi to give us a confused look and tell us that wasn't possible. And we-the-playerbase are confused about how the Sannin's partial path to power ("kill clans, get loot") is viable. How do you punch someone into giving you their Super Jutsu 5000?
    • Often, the greater ROI is to simply... sit down and make our own loot, during which we'll passively generate experience, anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by the new negative incentive of needing FPs to do Difficulty Checks, and to unstagnate every once in a while, but there's no positive incentive to go out on missions. If we want something, there's no "go slay an Alpha Chakra Lion and use its uniquely chakra-conductive blood for a potion that gives you +5 levels to taijutsu," it's "sit down for a week and make Macerator 3.0"
  • XP Incentives
    • I've heard some players say that Hazou's only real sin is being 17, and that if we had had another year or two of XP, we would've been in a much better position to deal with the plots that we were engaging with. In LotRoL and Stormfall, XP is distributed differently, and at an increased rate (a lump sum at the end of each arc, every dozen or so updates, with bonus XP for secret achievements and particularly noteworthy accomplishments).
    • Transitioning MfD to a similar XP Distribution Model would positively incentivize the players to go out and Do Things^tm, rather than sitting down and Lighthousing while passively generating drops of XP in the background.
I agree with most of this but want to caveat this with...

I like research stats. I like the idea of being able to put your nose down and make the world bend to your whims, in the form of sealing or technique hacking or whatever. Just, the incentives aren't right for it here.
 
Hear me out for a second: Leaf gets destroyed.

Based.
I think this makes a ton of sense for all the reasons you mention. We lost, we get our shit rekt. Honestly this, plus Hazou dying, feels refreshing in a way - it makes the stakes feel real to me.
In a purely narrative story, this would be the Major Setback that makes it look like all hope is lost, and the hero needs to wander in the wilderness before finding their way. And what a convenient wilderness we see before us...

Personally I'm way more emotionally attached to Team Uplift than to Leaf, so Leaf losing feels "awful for Hazou" but not awful to me. I know others feel differently though. If we wanted a hope for something besides revenge and rebuilding, the long-term goal could be to ressurect the Leafers. Maybe there's evidence that a large number of deaths all at once is hard for the Pure Lands to process, so we're not on such a ticking clock. Of course, that means a bunch of Isanese might be hanging out somewhere in the Pure Lands too, keeping alive the memory of how they were betrayed by those stone-cold outsiders...


I could see a satisfying gameplay loop of:

1. Hazou fights people (ninja with anti-social goals, powerful chakra monsters threatening villages, Leopard war stuff)
2. This clears the way for Hazou to undertake a major project (chakra rice 2.0, plant cultivation rune, creating a major system of dams and canals, restructuring Leaf politically, other humanitarian efforts)
3. Successfully completing the major project results in rewards from Jashin (deep lore, influence over powerful Jashinists, buffs to Hazou's signature stunts, raw infusions of XP or powerful jutsu), plus future missions with promise of additional rewards

Due to regeneration, players won't fear step 1. because Hazou is much less likely to actually die, though he can still be defeated, captured, trapped etc.

Yeah this could be neat. I like the variant of this where Oro is still around, so there are still major stakes to Hazou being captured and experimented on.

A plot hole I see with the Jashin path is just -- Oro being Oro, surely he seals Hazou's remains for further study? Or makes some effort to eradicate them, so people don't find evidence?

Maybe we get a sign that he does have a tiny bit of respect for us in his cold cruel heart, and he buries or burns Hazou's body. What's traditional in the EN?

Fun plot twist here would be if we resurrect from Hazou's body, only to learn that Oro's taken our head for experiments (trying to figure out how we got all those weird flashes of insight). Or if we Come Back Wrong.

Are you asking the QMs to spend their spoons to tell you how to best spend their spoons?

I am baffled at the audacity

Hey, it worked on Jiraiya!

I don't know what surprises me the most here. That Oro would care about explaining that he's straight, or that he is callipygous.
ohh I have to hope he's ace. the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
 
I do like this path forward a lot, but it has the large drawback of leaving Orochimaru absconding with the Rift and cutting off any chance of reviving Jiraiya et al.

Yup, that's one of the reasons I like Option 3 slightly better, but if the GMs prefer Hazou to interact with Human Path stuff I think this is the most parsimonious way of doing it that leads to a stable worldly equilibrium and a more combat-survivable Hazou.

One alternative I thought would be cool:
*Sasori died at the Rift fight
*The Jashin Option presented earlier occurs
*The initial Akatsuki attack on Leaf is repelled by Hazou's Runes
*Hidan gets the message from Jashin and decides this means he should try recruiting Hazou into Akatsuki. Itachi, having witnessed the Runes in action, agrees to make the recruitment pitch again - this time not as a glorified research pet, but as a full member. They'll need him to open the Rift, after all.
*Akatsuki, having lost both their sealmaster and explosions specialist, gets both in the form of Goketsu Hazou, the Mad Clan Lord. In exchange they agrees not to pursue this strife with Leaf any further. Hazou Akatsuki arc begins!
*With Itachi and Hidan being some of the few people with a reasonable shot of somehow tracking down Oro, this could see the Rift recaptured in the medium term. And we'd finally get to see what Akatsuki is all about.
*Bonus: once he joins Akatsuki, we'll get to Hazou's S-rank Bingo Book entry

This solves the problem of worldly stability by giving Hazou five S-rank bodyguards who, if they won't follow his every whim, at the very least will make sure he doesn't die. Interesting potential character interactions abound as Hazou tries to convert them to the cause of Uplift.
 
Last edited:
  • Anything you consider a structural problem in the quest -- mechanics, balance, misaligned player/QM incentives, etc

So, this is something I've always thought was a bit strange but figured it was too core of a mechanic to touch. (And because, to be honest, it's fun to interact with and manage the risk. But still.)

But seal research as it is, seems ideal at encouraging lighthousing. By spending narrative time we can get combat boosts without spending EXP, even with stagnancy we are encouraged to do this! And with SC, we can do this a half dozen times at once! It makes time at home *so* valuable.

So I mentally find myself comparing it to other types of "magic research" in games. How do wizards get spells in DnD? By leveling up, or by killing guys and taking their spells. Thus, I suggest we do something similar to that:

First, for each research stat AB we get a narrative-time free result of our choice, scaled to our sealing AB by the QM's. Let's call these our "Original Works".

So, we'd specify "Explosives" as an original work, and the QM's would think "How strong should a seal at this AB be?" Then give it to us, no rolls or time needed, the cost here was the spending EXP and a slot. When we continue to level our research stats, all our original works would scale mechanically. This would represent us honing the design, optimizing the seal. It would keep our tricks relevant as we invest in the stat. (Optional, we could have seals go 'stale', and return to their base/AB 1 potency after ~24 hours or so. Flavor this as the optimizations taking advantage of temporary factors like planar alignment and such.)

Second would be things copied from other researchers- let's call these derivative works. Derivative works are quest rewards for doing cool things- they don't take an AB slot but neither do they scale, so they are always at their minimum efficacy unless we make them an original work. We would be required to do dangerous seal research and spend narrative time as usual for these works.

This paradigm would allow sealmasters to have a few powerful and character defining research items, and if they are adventurous, a large array of weaker utility items.

Hazo, for example could be:

AB 1: Explosives
AB 2: Storage Seals
AB 3: Macerators
AB 4: Banshee Fuckers
AB 5: MARS
AB 6: Force Claws
AB 7: Reusable Rocket Boots

And a simple example of scaling could be:

Explosive Seal:
Weapons: 2 + AB/2 rounded down
TN: (30 + 5 * AB)


With this mechanic, we'd either have to go *do* things to get notes (politics or murder) or spend exp on Sealing/TH/Mednin to get to the next AB and improve our kit.

I also suspect it'd make drafting NPC researchers easier, as you wouldn't have to come up with more than, at the worst, ten things for them to have honed to a combat-viable point. (Per stat, at least...).

If you incorporate the 'staling', then you also explain why e.g. Jiraiya didn't hand out TN 60 goo bombs to every graduating genin, printed
by shadow clones in his spare time.

This would really only need to apply to combat relevant seals, so plot advancement seals like the rift openers or chakrascropes would behave like derivative works.

I'm sure there's lots of drawbacks with an idea like this, not the least of which that'd it be a major mechanical change.
 
So, this is something I've always thought was a bit strange but figured it was too core of a mechanic to touch. (And because, to be honest, it's fun to interact with and manage the risk. But still.)

But seal research as it is, seems ideal at encouraging lighthousing. By spending narrative time we can get combat boosts without spending EXP, even with stagnancy we are encouraged to do this! And with SC, we can do this a half dozen times at once! It makes time at home *so* valuable.

So I mentally find myself comparing it to other types of "magic research" in games. How do wizards get spells in DnD? By leveling up, or by killing guys and taking their spells. Thus, I suggest we do something similar to that:

First, for each research stat AB we get a narrative-time free result of our choice, scaled to our sealing AB by the QM's. Let's call these our "Original Works".

So, we'd specify "Explosives" as an original work, and the QM's would think "How strong should a seal at this AB be?" Then give it to us, no rolls or time needed, the cost here was the spending EXP and a slot. When we continue to level our research stats, all our original works would scale mechanically. This would represent us honing the design, optimizing the seal. It would keep our tricks relevant as we invest in the stat. (Optional, we could have seals go 'stale', and return to their base/AB 1 potency after ~24 hours or so. Flavor this as the optimizations taking advantage of temporary factors like planar alignment and such.)

Second would be things copied from other researchers- let's call these derivative works. Derivative works are quest rewards for doing cool things- they don't take an AB slot but neither do they scale, so they are always at their minimum efficacy unless we make them an original work. We would be required to do dangerous seal research and spend narrative time as usual for these works.

This paradigm would allow sealmasters to have a few powerful and character defining research items, and if they are adventurous, a large array of weaker utility items.

Hazo, for example could be:

AB 1: Explosives
AB 2: Storage Seals
AB 3: Macerators
AB 4: Banshee Fuckers
AB 5: MARS
AB 6: Force Claws
AB 7: Reusable Rocket Boots

And a simple example of scaling could be:

Explosive Seal:
Weapons: 2 + AB/2 rounded down
TN: (30 + 5 * AB)


With this mechanic, we'd either have to go *do* things to get notes (politics or murder) or spend exp on Sealing/TH/Mednin to get to the next AB and improve our kit.

I also suspect it'd make drafting NPC researchers easier, as you wouldn't have to come up with more than, at the worst, ten things for them to have honed to a combat-viable point. (Per stat, at least...).

If you incorporate the 'staling', then you also explain why e.g. Jiraiya didn't hand out TN 60 goo bombs to every graduating genin, printed
by shadow clones in his spare time.

This would really only need to apply to combat relevant seals, so plot advancement seals like the rift openers or chakrascropes would behave like derivative works.

I'm sure there's lots of drawbacks with an idea like this, not the least of which that'd it be a major mechanical change.
While I do recognize that you are addressing an actual problem, and do not have, off-hand, a solution to it myself...

I don't really like this solution, because it removes some amount of what makes being a research-spec special. Or... something in that general vicinity. I'm not sure, it just feels kind of icky to be artificially-limited on what research we can do at all.

e: Also, in D&D, wizards also get spells through doing research, FWIW. That this is not played out in tabletop is because most spells people could want already exist and that there are not good rules for doing the research.
 
Last edited:
because it removes some amount of what makes being a research-spec special
I actually agree with this completely. I enjoy engaging with the sealing mechanics- for a long while I cataloged all the sealing rolls to try and calculate the TN's for everything. But I'm willing to sacrifice a fair bit of that if it removes an unintentionally bad incentive.

e: Also, in D&D, wizards also get spells through doing research, FWIW. That this is not played out in tabletop is because most spells people could want already exist and that there are not good rules for doing the research.

I think the big difference here is that, in DnD, you can level up in hours or days doing medium risk activities. It's never time efficient to research spells that mostly only give you greater versatility. (which is why, in my experience, very few play groups spend much time on downtime)
 
I agree with most of this but want to caveat this with...

I like research stats. I like the idea of being able to put your nose down and make the world bend to your whims, in the form of sealing or technique hacking or whatever. Just, the incentives aren't right for it here.

Agreed. Some of my favorite chapters are when new seals get used in combat for the first time. The leopard fights were cool cause of that!

The trouble with research-stats-as-they-are is that they incentivize Lighthousing. The trouble with lighthousing is that the cons outweigh the pros (especially from an OOC perspective).

Pros:
  1. Shinies.
  2. Relatively safe.
  3. Time IC passes more quickly than time OOC, vastly increasing XP gain per IRL day.
Cons:
  1. More boring to read/write than action chapters.
  2. Incredibly spoon intensive for the QMs, as they have to balance a) the players breaking the setting by coming up with crazy shit, against b) the QMs breaking the setting (and our build) by gimping research stats. Not to mention, c) actually come up with game mechanics.
  3. Paper seals are kind of meh when it comes to jonin tier combat. The new buff rules mean we can't just stack up a bunch of minor buffs and punch out a generic jonin.
  4. Runes are static. They are immensely powerful strategic tools, but do little to directly increase Hazou's personal combat skills on a tactical level.

How do we minimize the cons while maximizing the pros?

Imo, it's simple.

  1. Make it MUCH harder to create novel effects with seals and runes
  2. Make it much easier to upgrade existing seals and runes. E.g. boost veterancy bonuses.
  3. Double or tripple the number of shifts needed to complete research around the board.

This serves multiple purposes.

  1. Research is completed less frequently, thereby reducing QM spoon usage.
  2. The research that does get completed is more likely to build on what we already have, thereby GREATLY reducing QM spoon usage ("number go up" is far less likely to break the setting than seals with novel effects).
  3. Number go up is good for winning fights. Number go up per seal/buff is especially good for winning fights.
  4. Certain seals (MARS) become much harder for enemy seal masters to reverse engineer, thereby reducing opsec concerns and allowing us to use our best seals in a larger proportions of fights.

For example, say we upgrade "Force Claws" to "Chakra-Adhesion-Triggered Variable Force Claws" (the length of the claw varying with the strength of the chakra adhesion). This could be as simple as just spending two weeks to turn the +6 FC bonus into a +9 or +12 CAT-VFC. Maybe add a bonus to the Roki roll as well.

Tl;dr: Everyone would be happier if we're completing less research projects while also getting bigger numbers from the few research projects that do get completed.

What do you think, @Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien ?

Edit: @Kylinger I see great minds think alike :p. You ninjaed me!
 
Last edited:
I, uh, don't know that I want less research projects completed... though the idea of starting from something small and working the way up being more rewarded seems neat.
 
Occurs to me we could potentially also have Mio's sister and a bunch of Yakuza lieutenants join our escape-the-afterlife party alongside Akane and Jiraya, mend some fences with regard to intra-Leaf politics that way.
Gōketsu have essentially burned their bridges with the Yakuza unless they want to make a truly epic effort to repair them.
Bringing the victims in question back from the dead, then publicly expressing remorse for previous "criminal scum" comments as part of praising their contributions to the adventure, sounds to me like it could qualify as truly epic.
 
I don't know what surprises me the most here. That Oro would care about explaining that he's straight, or that he is callipygous.
He didn't say he was straight, he simply said he has trouble judging male pulchritude. Could be he's ace, or even just out of touch with local beauty standards.

QMs have limited spoons. So it makes sense for them to prioritize replying to posts pointing out issues if there are a lot of players expressing they care about the issue. But I wish that if the issue being pointed out is clearly valid with a clear viable solution, then QMs would reply to the post even if only few players have expressed they care.
The thread is moving extremely fast, so it's hard to catch everything that should be responded to. That said, there haven't been a lot of things that I feel like we need to respond to? @Rihaku has made several suggestion posts that we should get to but the rest is mostly discussion. Are there specific posts you think we should speak to?
 
This brings up a post from three days ago in a discussion that's progressed pretty far since then and doesn't engage with anything it said about why Deidara was doomed from the start. I'd rather you didn't do this and I will not respond further on this topic.

The QMs basically said the outcome of the battle is overdetermined. Basically, there was no way for Deidara to win no matter what so they didn't roll dice and decided to just tell a very compelling story.
 
Back
Top