Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Liverpool
I feel like this isn't necessarily accurate, given that Kei ended up learning it, as did Akane, both of whom were chunin. Mind you, them knowing from Jiraiya was a path there, but even then I think that speaks to it being a tiered things, not almost fully gatekept to a very small handful.
Also, I love the Waves Arisen-style chakra gaming. I do think that we should be mindful that not all summons are willing/free to be summoned more than an hour in advance (especially bosses). And I agree that using clone-hours of people who aren't going to be in combat makes it safer (though more expensive, given the start-up cost)(except not really, if you'd have Tsunade and Mari repeatedly popping and summoning clones anyway).
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Ok I'm gonna get boo'd for this, but I'm currently picturing Hazo with his spreadsheets figuring out how somebody could cast shadow clone, which costs chakra, and still end up contributing more chakra to the total pool than if they hadn't. It's a brilliant bit of munchkinry (maybe, idk enough about the math personally to say), and it's very Hazo, but...
wouldn't it be thematically appropriate to share this kind of chakra optimization work with Kei? I know it's all the thread's work, IRL, but I feel like in-character it would be nicer if it was Hazo and Kei sitting there with those spreadsheets together, rather than it being entirely accredited to Hazo alone.
Share the glory, SV. Pretend Kei did something useful. As a treat.
wouldn't it be thematically appropriate to share this kind of chakra optimization work with Kei? I know it's all the thread's work, IRL, but I feel like in-character it would be nicer if it was Hazo and Kei sitting there with those spreadsheets together, rather than it being entirely accredited to Hazo alone.
Share the glory, SV. Pretend Kei did something useful. As a treat.
Sorry, no one would believe it.
Ehh, I have ambivalent feelings about this sort of thing after a few instances of voting in ideas and then having them come from some NPC's mouth instead so Hazo can act impressed in response. It's one of the things that bothers me slightly about the QMs' "NPCs don't give you solutions" policy- it creates a tendency for NPCs to be presenting ideas IC specifically when they're stealing the credit from us.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Let's deal with the elephant in the room, which is that there are two reasons this topic is coming up: first, because people are worried about the Akatsuki "suddenly" having anti-SC / anti-summon technology and second because there is a sense that Hazō should have had access to these things all this time, either in Jiraiya's hoard or through general access to Leaf's tech.
To deal with the first issue: this is not sudden and should not be a surprise. Immediately after the Zoo Rush, Hazō noted that Zoo Rush would not stay secret for long, and at the start of the current arc, Kei mentioned again that people were going to be working on defenses against it. Additionally, it's been mentioned that the Zoo Rush, as an operation requiring all of Leaf's (high-profile) summoners and hundreds of genin, is not exactly a secret any more. It's been over two in-game years since the Zoo Rush, so it shouldn't be surprising that, if such defenses are possible, people would have had time to develop them.
To deal with the second issue: shortly after Hazō became a special jōnin he acquired access to the Fourfold Violet Flame Barrier sealing array from Leaf's tech base. He chose not to use SSA on it and caused a sealing failure; runes were discovered shortly thereafter and he went all-in on runes instead of looking more into sealing arrays. As to Jiraiya's hoard, the Doylist reason that there weren't seal arrays in there is because we are human beings with limited time and energy and didn't think to create them. Watsonian, we are going to cop out and say that Jiraiya's "hoard" was in fact a subset of everything that he ever researched and the rest got lost somewhere along the line, or wasn't included in what he left to you. (Note: we would like to supply more in the future, if we get enough bandwidth.)
With all that said: please don't get hung up on the term "seal array" as something new in the setting. They are not. A seal array is simply a seal with multiple parts, as we have said multiple times before. The Five Seal Barrier is technically a seal array, as are Air Domes and Lesser Barrier Formation. When someone talks about a seal array, what they are saying is "a seal with sufficient power that it likely couldn't be done in a single element."
Seal arrays are typically more powerful than single-element seals but less powerful than an equivalent rune. The Fourfold Violet Flame Barrier sealing array is of sufficient power to protect a militarily-significant area but it cannot form a (nigh?) invulnerable bubble multiple kilometers across.
Seal arrays typically affect a limited volume -- vastly smaller than a rune, meaning almost never more than a zone or two in radius, and often smaller. Having mostly been designed before the advent of skywalkers, seal arrays typically do not have spherical effects.
The duration of a seal array is generally much more limited than an equivalent rune, typically being measured in hours or perhaps days. 5SB is unusual in that it lasts for a month, but it has extremely sharp limitations in that it can only affect a single object (a term with sharp limitations of its own) and it requires precise positioning for its supporting seals.
When Orochimaru says "were I Akatsuki, I would have made seal arrays to defeat SCs/summons", Hazō understood that to mean "I would have created a multi-part seal that affects a zone or three in area and through some method it inflicted a small amount of damage on anyone passing through its AOE – perhaps by heating the air, or causing a swirl of wind blades, or etc – in the knowledge that a tiny bit of damage is enough to pop shadow clones and a small amount of damage is enough to pop summons. I then would have tiled the immediate area in these seals in order to get reasonable coverage and to force attackers to run through multiple zones of the effect such that SCs would be popped in the first zone and summons in the third or fourth. These seals wouldn't be able to operate continuously for the entire time we [Akatsuki] have been at this location so I would either need to activate them when I detected an attack or I would need to have some way to generate an unreasonable number of them in order to replace them when the current set burned out. This still wouldn't provide full protection against summons coming in from above unless I found a way to position the seals in midair, such as by using a very large number of skytowers. [NB: Orochimaru thinks Akatsuki probably does have skytowers, but isn't certain.] It is also probable that the strength of these arrays would be based on their creator's skill level, meaning that even if a mid-rank sealsmith were somehow able to create them they would not necessarily be powerful enough to pop summons, but they would still be better than nothing."
Contrast that to a rune purpose-built for popping chakra constructs. It might easily have a range measured in hundreds of meters or kilometers, affect a spherical area, and either simply say "fuck you, I win" or provide a sufficient bonus to the attack roll that it wins against any chakra construct not created by a legendary master.
In short: we feel that (a) we have played fair and (b) this is not nearly the shattering disaster that y'all seem to be interpreting it as. If there are indeed seal arrays designed to pop SCs/summons then it is likely that the battle plan you have come up with will not be instantly invalidated, as a RER blast will destroy all unprotected seals in a given zone and said seals cannot all be activated fast enough to pop all the summons coming in if the attackers are not detected sufficiently in advance. Even if they can, the Prime Sannin will likely be able to clear the road if and when they detect the existence of such seal effects, at the cost of a short delay in the assault. (cf Tsunade's path bangers from chapter 475, intended for exactly this purpose.) This is obviously NOT a guarantee, but it's a reasonable presumption. If such seal arrays exist then we'll roll for them when we're gaming out the battle so it's possible, but far from certain, that they will matter.
Hopefully this allays everyone's concerns. Again, please assume good faith on our part.
It does, yes, thank you very much for the clarification- it's a big relief to confirm that this is imagined IC as conventional weaponry designed to target the shortcomings of SCs and summons rather than something like Pain's Rinnegan power at the Battle of the Gods. I fully agree that the idea you suggested is reasonable for seals in general to do and Akatsuki in particular to deploy. (Assuming that this isn't guaranteed no-save damage, at least.)
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I want to second this. This seems like our adversaries have taken reasonable precautions not that they've been handed the Rinnegan in a sealing array. I am confident we can circumvent them (unless Konan is in the field lol)
- Location
- UK
I'm very much not in the group of people who were worked up about the anti-summoning stuff, but I did double-take at this line. The setting empirically does not look like this! It does not have enough people for this to be true, it does not have enough internet-connected devices for this to be true, and, ultimately, it empirically is not the case that the setting is filled with such seals.
A version of this I do find natural is that if such defenses are both easy and obvious, then the Akatsuki specifically in this scenario specifically would likely have prioritized doing the easy and obvious thing; and I think the description you gave fits to that.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
So... I do want to say, first, thank you for this ginormous post, and also thank you for your efforts on communicating this.
I want to clarify that the following is not an indictment against y'all or anything of the sort, and I understand that it is a matter that could not have been different given circumstances at the time.
Having said that: I suspect that some degree of the dissatisfaction on our end is coming from the fact that we were not given the opportunity to research runes to counteract this effect (it is my understanding that we were wanting chakra shredders in part to get rid of seals in the area) because we were only given prep day results after our most recent time skip which put us in this situation we're currently in.
Fun fact, Chakra Shredders are actually meant to destroy chakra constructs, like Sasori's strings and Konan's everything, under the theory the were the most likely pair at the rift, and to double against Itachi/Deidara's SC and flying mounts, as part of an old defensive strategy to force them to approach our research skytower in prime bodies with skywalkers, then kill them with Icarus runes.
Destroying seals was never part of the design spec.
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Analysis of SC Hours to Create Extra Chakra Capacity for the Assualt:
We have 22k total chakra available excluding Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Kurenai's reserves. Tbis includes Noburi's barrel, but does not include Kurenai/Orochimaru/Tsunade. This generates at least approximately 833 CP of chakra an hour, every hour. Estimating all 3 ninia that weren't included at 600/900/900 CP reserves we get a regeneration rate of 933 CP/hour. I will use this second value. By using unused SC time we can capture a large portion of this chakra in the hours leading up to the Assualt.
For this purpose, We know that 2 Leaf jounin (out of 8) other than Kurenai and Tsunade know SC at 40 and 2 more know it to a lesser degree. I estimate Resolve 49 for Kurenai and the nameless jounin, Resolve 59 for Mari, Oro, and Sunny and we know that Kei has SC 50, and Resolve 69
I am further assuming that everyone fighting save Tsunade wants 20 hours of SC time in reserve, Tsunade wants 30 since she has so many extra clones to make.
This gives us:
Resolve 49 + 9 vs 20 + X -> 44 clone hours available for 3 jounin and Kurenai. Estimating nameless jounin as 400 CP reserves and Kurenai as 600.
Resolve 59 + 9 vs 20 + X -> 54 clone hours available for Sannin + Mari, estimating Sannin as 900 CP max and Mari as 500
Kei gets 69 + 12 vs 20 + X -> 67 clone hours, she has 300 CP
T-16: Kei casts SC, she creates 7 clones for 2.1 kCP capacity.
T-14: We have refilled to 1.5k/2.1k additional capacity. (NB: all numerators include casting costs, denominators track total capacity). Nameless jounin 1 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP.
T-11: We have refilled to 4.1k/4.5k additional capacity. Nameless jounin 2 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP. Tsunade creates 2 SC with a capacity of 1.8 kCP
T-6: We have refilled to 8.3k/8.7k additional capacity. Nameless jounin 1 dismisses his clones at 48 clone hours accrued (he invokes, he's fine) Mari creates 5 SC with a capacity of 2.5 kCP to replace nameless jounin 1. Orochimaru creates 5 SC with 4.5 kCP capacity
T-5: We have refilled to 8.6k/13.3k. Hazou begins ESing his runes. This means that there are now 9 Hazouclones and 3.2k additional capacity. Kei gives him all of her chakra and dismisses her clones, 77 total clone hours accrued(she invokes and rerolls on -6), losing 2.1k capacity.
T-4: We have refilled to 9.1k/14.4k. Nameless jounin 2 has accrued 42 clone hours. Nameless jounin dismisses his clones, losing 2.4k capacity.
T-1: We have refilled to 11.9k/12.0k. Kurenai creates 5 SC gaining 3.0k capacity
T-0: We have refilled to 12.5k/15.0k. Time to begin mass summons and spend the remainder of our chakra.
Let me know if there are errors, @18scsc this was mostly their method, credit to them!
We have 22k total chakra available excluding Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Kurenai's reserves. Tbis includes Noburi's barrel, but does not include Kurenai/Orochimaru/Tsunade. This generates at least approximately 833 CP of chakra an hour, every hour. Estimating all 3 ninia that weren't included at 600/900/900 CP reserves we get a regeneration rate of 933 CP/hour. I will use this second value. By using unused SC time we can capture a large portion of this chakra in the hours leading up to the Assualt.
For this purpose, We know that 2 Leaf jounin (out of 8) other than Kurenai and Tsunade know SC at 40 and 2 more know it to a lesser degree. I estimate Resolve 49 for Kurenai and the nameless jounin, Resolve 59 for Mari, Oro, and Sunny and we know that Kei has SC 50, and Resolve 69
I am further assuming that everyone fighting save Tsunade wants 20 hours of SC time in reserve, Tsunade wants 30 since she has so many extra clones to make.
This gives us:
Resolve 49 + 9 vs 20 + X -> 44 clone hours available for 3 jounin and Kurenai. Estimating nameless jounin as 400 CP reserves and Kurenai as 600.
Resolve 59 + 9 vs 20 + X -> 54 clone hours available for Sannin + Mari, estimating Sannin as 900 CP max and Mari as 500
Kei gets 69 + 12 vs 20 + X -> 67 clone hours, she has 300 CP
T-16: Kei casts SC, she creates 7 clones for 2.1 kCP capacity.
T-14: We have refilled to 1.5k/2.1k additional capacity. (NB: all numerators include casting costs, denominators track total capacity). Nameless jounin 1 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP.
T-11: We have refilled to 4.1k/4.5k additional capacity. Nameless jounin 2 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP. Tsunade creates 2 SC with a capacity of 1.8 kCP
T-6: We have refilled to 8.3k/8.7k additional capacity. Nameless jounin 1 dismisses his clones at 48 clone hours accrued (he invokes, he's fine) Mari creates 5 SC with a capacity of 2.5 kCP to replace nameless jounin 1. Orochimaru creates 5 SC with 4.5 kCP capacity
T-5: We have refilled to 8.6k/13.3k. Hazou begins ESing his runes. This means that there are now 9 Hazouclones and 3.2k additional capacity. Kei gives him all of her chakra and dismisses her clones, 77 total clone hours accrued(she invokes and rerolls on -6), losing 2.1k capacity.
T-4: We have refilled to 9.1k/14.4k. Nameless jounin 2 has accrued 42 clone hours. Nameless jounin dismisses his clones, losing 2.4k capacity.
T-1: We have refilled to 11.9k/12.0k. Kurenai creates 5 SC gaining 3.0k capacity
T-0: We have refilled to 12.5k/15.0k. Time to begin mass summons and spend the remainder of our chakra.
- Combatant SC hour count
- Tsunade: 22 hours
- Orochimaru: 30 hours
- Mari: 30 hours
- Kurenai: 5 hours
- Kurenai's SC cast (275 CP)
- Hazou's first SC cast (375 CP)
- Orochimaru's SC cast (275 CP)
- Mari's SC cast (275 CP)
Let me know if there are errors, @18scsc this was mostly their method, credit to them!
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This is done so that everyone only takes at worst a Mild on a -12. So that's mostly fine.
Shouldn't this just be 1.4/1.8, as SC casting cost doesn't create capacity?
Given the notation, I can't tell offhand if this error(?) is repeated of the other SC casts
Also, thanks a lot forrunning the maths. I think you overestimate the average Jounin's resolve(QMs have said most normal people stop at 40. I would think you're overestimateing their CR as well, but they were probably selected for high-CR ninja,so it looks good. I'd still be surprised if Kurenai had CR above 50ish
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It's literally capacity, as in storage. I needed to track the total amount of storage space we had at each step.
So 7 additional clones at 300 CP is 2.1k capacity. The numerator had the casting cost subtracted out.
Aodyssey
The glass will not protecc you
- Location
- Chaldea
We could give someone else the honor of firing RER, we'll know we did raise our weapons for the fight 🥹
We'll be looking at these S-monsters in the eyes and pull out just a buttload of charts and lists
Can we still apply for being a Training/HR S-rank like Gramps Ryuugamine after this?
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
So, if I'm reading this right, the main limiting factor on how much chakra we can capture from this is actually "how much chakra do our forces regen?" and not "how many clone-hours can we spare?". That's good to know, since it means we have some comfortable wiggle room for the fine-grained details without the end result changing overmuch.
(Not to say that the full calculations are unnecessary, it's clearly more involved than just "1/x of their reserves", but it's nice that we should be able to rely on this number.)
This is sort of the case, but if the nameless jounin don't exist we would immediately be running up on clone hour constraints.
This is a lot of plates to juggle too so eventually one Wakahisa can't drain fast enough.
But in these circumstance yes, also if people start needing to sleep that could be an issue so you might not be able to stay mobile and you can't ever let anyone pop. So for timescales longer than this I don't think it really works.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Quick everyone take almost-lethal quantities of
Mist genin go through sleep deprivation training, Leaf nin are going to non-optionally stay the fuck awake for as long as we need them to. Lock the fuck in. If Tsunade and Oro can't manage this problem there is basically no reason for them to exist.
It's not a problem for 16 hours, for 3 days? People gonna start hallucinating and shit.
All the better for them to comprehend Jashin's will.
- Location
- [REDACTED]
This is within the range of value I'm getting.
However, I worked backwards from T-0 rather than foward from any given time. Let me explain.
First let us inventory our sources of CP.
Agreed. Except I will assume that Mari has 600 CP just to make my life easier.
Now. Working backwards from t=0. Starting from when the optimal time to Summon Hazo SCs
1. T-4: 9x Hazo SC summoned. This creates 3.6 kCP of capacity, more than will be generated before t=0.
2. T-6: 10x sannin summoned. 5x of each. This creates 9 kCP worth of capacity. Far more than can be filled.
At this point we must stop and go over a couple things. First, we already have 6 hours of guaranteed regen captured. Second, I would like to introduce you to a concept called "Standard Capacity Tranches". Such a tranche is a set of Shadow Clones lasting 3 hours which have a combined capacity of 2.4 kCP.
The reason this is significant is that 2.4 kCP would be generated during the 3 hour duration of the tranche. Further, it gives us an abstract unit that makes further anaylsis easier. Most importantly the tranches kind of work like like the XP and leveling here in MFD.
Each marginal "3*n" hours of regen time requires a marginal "n" number of tranches. So "starting" from t-9 would only require 1 tranche (since up to t-6 is already accounted for). Wheras starting from t-18 (n=3) would require 10 tranches (1+2+3+4).
So then the only thing left to do is to convert our clone hour budget into tranches rather than simple hours.
So if a generic jonin has 400 cp, than a tranche would take 6x such SC to reach 2.4 kCP. Over 3 hours this would burn 18 SC hours (notated "Generic: 6x400 @ 18"). The rest of our SC sources as follows.
This means total tranches equals "3+3+3+2n=9+2n" where "n" is the number of SC capable generic leaf-jonin we have avaliable. Or if Mari wants a larger margin of error, and Kurenai is fighting as well, then we can use "3+2+1+2n=6+2n".
So that's a spread from like... 6 at minimum to 17 at max (w/ n=4). So that's good from anywhere between t-15 (requires 6 tranches) or t-21 (requires 15 tranches).
That's anywhere from between 12 kCP to 16.8 kCP. I will use the middle case of 12 kCP as an further example.
The reason this is significant is that 2.4 kCP would be generated during the 3 hour duration of the tranche. Further, it gives us an abstract unit that makes further anaylsis easier. Most importantly the tranches kind of work like like the XP and leveling here in MFD.
Each marginal "3*n" hours of regen time requires a marginal "n" number of tranches. So "starting" from t-9 would only require 1 tranche (since up to t-6 is already accounted for). Wheras starting from t-18 (n=3) would require 10 tranches (1+2+3+4).
So then the only thing left to do is to convert our clone hour budget into tranches rather than simple hours.
So if a generic jonin has 400 cp, than a tranche would take 6x such SC to reach 2.4 kCP. Over 3 hours this would burn 18 SC hours (notated "Generic: 6x400 @ 18"). The rest of our SC sources as follows.
- Kurenai and Mari: 4x600 @ 12
- Kei: 8x300 @ 24 (she'll need to take a mild consequence).
This means total tranches equals "3+3+3+2n=9+2n" where "n" is the number of SC capable generic leaf-jonin we have avaliable. Or if Mari wants a larger margin of error, and Kurenai is fighting as well, then we can use "3+2+1+2n=6+2n".
So that's a spread from like... 6 at minimum to 17 at max (w/ n=4). So that's good from anywhere between t-15 (requires 6 tranches) or t-21 (requires 15 tranches).
That's anywhere from between 12 kCP to 16.8 kCP. I will use the middle case of 12 kCP as an further example.
3. T-9: Tranche A (8x Kei, from t-15), Tranche B (4x Mari, from t-12), Tranche C (4x Kurenai, summoned here on t-9).
4. T-12: Tranche A (8x Kei, from t-15), Tranche B (4x Mari, summoned here on t-12.
5. T-15: Tranche A (8x Kei, from here on t-15).
This means that our total amount of chakra storage increases by 2.4 kCP each 3 hours from t-15 to t-6. At which point the Sannin SC are summoned and all non-sannin SC can be drained and dispelled. The sannin SC create 9 kCP of storage, so they'll be able to take up the slack just fine.
Overall 12 kCP extra chakra w/o even needing generic leaf Jonin. More with.
Edit:
[X] Interlude so we have more time to finalize the optimized chakra budget
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