Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[faflec]

tl;dr:

• Rune blank creation can be accelerated from "12 hours" to "a few hours".
• Air Leadening and Icarus infusion can be accelerated from "1 hour" to "30 min".
• Iron Earth can be accleerated from "1 hour" to 10 minutes".
• Force Dome and Ninja-Radar infusion cannot be accelerated; they must take "1 hour".

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This is an update to a previous post and is not a call to do anything in particular.

Since this post, which was after Chapter 694, we have done veterancy practice on several of these runes here and here. Our current status is this:

Rune	Blank Creation Speed	Infusion Speed
Air Leadening Rune	A few hours	30min
Icarus Rune	A few hours	30min
Iron Earth Rune	A few hours	10min
Force Dome Rune	A few hours	30min
Ninja Radar Rune	A few hours	30min
RER 2.0	A few hours	30min

 

[ProperAttorney]

Hmm. The whole chakra coil discussion is interesting, but it occurs to me we may have neglected a simpler question - do elemental clones actually have stomachs? It's not like they need them. Plausibly, the reason they can't drink Wakahisa chakra water isn't anything to do with their chakra system, and is just that they can't actually drink - the QM statement was:

Which is entirely consistent with "Elemental Clones don't have a digestive system". They might not have any internal organs at all, in fact - I don't think they need to breathe, so the only reason to have lungs would be for speech, which could have been added into the technique separately.

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Surely you can see that this is also working backwards from a ruling? There is nothing saying whether elemental clones can swallow something, so the QMs can rule whichever way they prefer and explain it whichever way they want. It's just as valid to say "Yes, water clones can swallow water" as to day the opposite.

 

[redzonejoe]

I would assume that a simpler form of the early jutsu was something like a plain golem. Mud golem, water golem, whatever. Over time it was modified and improved enough to be called a 'clone' with increased capabilities like talking, all the better to fool the enemy and carry out your will.

I don't think digestion would have been modified into the jutsu.

However, asking if a water clone could absorb water is an interesting distinction from just regular food digestion. Can a mud clone absorb more mud?

Would this be programed into the jutsu as a form of healing from damage? Could it be an incidental effect, not intended by the jutsu but allowed by the physics of the world and/or the chakra shaping the clone?

And then you figure if the water has Chakra in it, how might that interact with the existing construct?

This could be an interesting line of study if we weren't quickly figuring out the details of a plan on the eve of battle. Could say interesting things about how the world works. Instead, it's doomed to be 'we don't want to deal with all of this right now, all of a sudden, so the answer is no.'

Shame. Somebody go ask Snowflake to become a chakra construct specialist and figure all these things out for the next big battle against Jashin that seems fairly inevitable at this point.

... that's not some form of bigoted to ask, is it?

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

I would argue that you can't make organs out of water or earth at all and it's all just magic.

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I mean, the entire thing is magic, the question is the extent to which the system is coherent, which is difficult to determine because we have no way of determining which parts of it are and are not specified beyond the QMs making statements.

Early in the story, we saw and heard of people using elemental clones for much more complicated tasks than we ever used them for. Zabuza was known to send Water Clones in to negotiate for missing-nin to surrender (who he would then kill), Kagome somehow used a Lightning Clone when we first met him in the woods.

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Personally, I tend not to look at early story stuff too skeptically or too hard. That seems like stuff which would actually require after-the-fact rationalization or explanation.

It all goes back to what ruling the QMs want and then you work backwards from there. It's not an insult or anything, it's just that there is no actual magic system with hard rules so you can just choose what you want or what you think makes more sense with the given information. I would argue that the fact that elemental clones have some sort of chakra coil with which to cast jutsu makes them similar enough to shadow clones that they can drink chakra water, QMs say nah not close enough and that's that. Can't really argue against it.

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I agree that probably happens sometimes but in this case I think 'elemental clones can't eat or drink so they can't benefit from drinking chakra water' is 100% fair and consistent with what we've observed. The magic system does have hard rules - it's just that they aren't in place everywhere so it's ultimately a matter of personal opinion (on the part of the players) whether what we're seeing lines up with those underlying rules or not. I think it does in this case, and you don't.

I don't think the sentiment of 'the QMs figure out what they want and then work backwards' is inherently insulting but I think that the statement in isolation...I dunno, fails the vibe check at the very least. A lot of work has gone into trying to make the world internally consistent and coherent and it comes off dismissive of that work. I think that's happened sometimes but I don't think it's what's happening now.

 

[faflec]

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped Is Hazou willing to timeladder Superchiller infusion? If so, how much? Possible answers:

• Hazou is unwilling to timeladder Superchiller infusion. He will take 1hr to infuse the rune.
• Hazou is willing to timeladder Superchiller infusion 1x. He will take 30min to infuse the rune.
• Hazou is willing to timeladder Superchiller infusion 2x. He will take 10min to infuse the rune.

 

[Sir Stompy]

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped Is Hazou willing to timeladder Superchiller infusion? If so, how much? Possible answers:

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The Superchiller rune requires 5 units of substrate. He is comfortable timeladdering crafting and 2x-timeladdering infusion to make them faster

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[faflec]

Well I feel dumb now

 

[_The_Bomb]

Congratulations to @Sir Stompy, who has just won the rarest of honors!

Lifetime Achievement: Faflec the Faflec

 

[faflec]

Tsunade does a supercharged healing roll and clears off Hazō's Moderate Consequence. For all rolls, Hazō is going to make the following checks:

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Also pinging @eaglejarl @Velorien Please don't hate me.

How much chakra did this healing roll cost Tsunade, and how long did it take for her to do the heal? Could Tsunade use this healing roll on individuals who took Consequences from overdrawing [several seconds before being healed]? Will there be Consequences if, after Tsunade performs this technique, the individual takes the same kind of Consequence [several seconds after healing]?

The intent of these questions is to determine if Tsunade can, over the course of the next day's prep or so, generate chakra in collaboration with individuals who first take Moderate Consequences to overdraw, which Tsunade then heals them of, so they can overdraw a second time (or more) to generate even more chakra.

Possible answers include:

• It took Tsunade a lot of chakra, more than an overdraw can cover (even on herself).
• It took Tsunade a long time, more than you have before the assault.
• It won't work on individuals who took overdraw-related Consequences.
• Attempting to overdraw soon after being healed will have Really Bad Consequences.
• Attempting to overdraw soon after being healed will have no long-term Consequences, but won't produce any additional chakra. Even with Tsunade healing the structure of your coils from the self-cannibalization that occurs during the overdraw, there simply won't be any chakra left to tap until it naturally replenishes itself.
• It can work, is both quick and cheap, and has no long-term Consequences, so you have functionally infinite chakra.

 

[_The_Bomb]

It can work, is both quick and cheap, and has no long-term Consequences, so you have functionally infinite chakra.

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Suggested additional answer for your list!

• Attempting to overdraw soon after being healed will have Really Bad Consequences.
• Attempting to overdraw soon after being healed will have no long-term Consequences, but won't produce any additional chakra. Even with Tsunade healing the structure of your coils from the self-cannibalization that occurs during the overdraw, there simply won't be any chakra left to tap until it naturally replenishes itself.
• It can work, is both quick and cheap, and has no long-term Consequences, so you have functionally infinite chakra.

 

[faflec]

Attempting to overdraw soon after being healed will have no long-term Consequences, but won't produce any additional chakra. Even with Tsunade healing the structure of your coils from the self-cannibalization that occurs during the overdraw, there simply won't be any chakra left to tap until it naturally replenishes itself.

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Added. Also:

until it naturally replenishes itself

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Thinking: Can we artifically fake natural replenishment by having Noburi give them chakra via his bloodline?

 

[_The_Bomb]

Thinking: Can we artifically fake natural replenishment by having Noburi give them chakra via his bloodline?

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I feel like that would just be pushing chakra into them, and then taking the exact same chakra out again. Minus whatever is lost in transfers.

It's not like they aren't regenerating while they're overdrawn. There'd be no point in healing them like this so you can rip the extra chakra you inserted right back out of them later.

EDIT: I mean, Noburi probably could heal a chakra overdraw beyond the point where Tsunade could, but it would be primarily useful for sending Konoha ninja out into the field with a restored ability to overdraw, not to create infinite chakra while camping.

 

[ProperAttorney]

I agree that probably happens sometimes but in this case I think 'elemental clones can't eat or drink so they can't benefit from drinking chakra water' is 100% fair and consistent with what we've observed. The magic system does have hard rules - it's just that they aren't in place everywhere so it's ultimately a matter of personal opinion (on the part of the players) whether what we're seeing lines up with those underlying rules or not. I think it does in this case, and you don't.

I don't think the sentiment of 'the QMs figure out what they want and then work backwards' is inherently insulting but I think that the statement in isolation...I dunno, fails the vibe check at the very least. A lot of work has gone into trying to make the world internally consistent and coherent and it comes off dismissive of that work. I think that's happened sometimes but I don't think it's what's happening now.

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Very much not intended as an insult, QMs are required to make decisions on how things work. When things can fall either way logically, they just have to decide what they want for the setting. "Elemental clones can swallow chakra water" and "Elemental clones can't swallow chakra water" are both valid rulings to make, both consistent with the setting as we know it because it has never come up before. We already discussed why internally they likely have chakra coils, so it would still make sense, just like it makes sense that it doesn't work. Perhaps that statement is too explicitly "how the sausage gets made", but there's nothing wrong with making a balance/setting ruling and then describing to the players new information that explains it away.

 

[_The_Bomb]

Firstly, she can activate seals remotely. This was a source of no small headache to me. In the conflict where Hiruzen died, I believe Jiraiya had approximately a tenth of a second to cast his seal-pouch away before it exploded on his hip, and she was the reason why, at Nagi Island, we three stayed on the ground where a moment of focus from Konan wouldn't cause us an untimely fall. As it was, a key objective was to keep her too occupied to let her drop our people to their deaths with a thought.

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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

What are the Sannin's thoughts on using this exact method against Akatsuki? That is, preparing an Icarus rune and then activating it mid-combat to make everyone fall to their deaths.

 

[strange_person]

What are the Sannin's thoughts on using this exact method against Akatsuki? That is, preparing an Icarus rune and then activating it mid-combat to make everyone fall to their deaths.

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We already know Hidan's confident enough in his ability to quickly recover from a terminal-velocity fall that he used it when fleeing. The others mostly have options for non-air-dome-based flight. One we're arguably most worried about, between being the Summoner of a flight-capable clan, and having bloodline powers related to precognition and accelerated reflexes, seems especially likely to be able to find something else to grab on the way down.

 

[eaglejarl]

I'm multiple pages behind and am not going to have the juice to catch up tonight or probably tomorrow morning, and then I'm at work. I tried to catch up, but (a) things are moving very fast and (b) I started reading, saw a whole bunch of stuff about how elemental clones should totes get chakra transfers and we were being unreasonable by saying they couldn't and etc. (I dunno, maybe I didn't read carefully enough and it wasn't as harsh as it looked at a casual glance; whatever, I'm tired and it's been a rough day. I don't have the juice to read charitably, process, and do the whole deal.)

If someone will please compile all outstanding questions, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. I would suggest dividing the work up, with various people taking two or three pages each.

 

[_The_Bomb]

I'm multiple pages behind and am not going to have the juice to catch up tonight or probably tomorrow morning, and then I'm at work. I tried to catch up, but (a) things are moving very fast and (b) I started reading, saw a whole bunch of stuff about how elemental comes should totes get chakra transfers and we were being unreasonable by saying they couldn't and etc. (I dunno, maybe I didn't read carefully enough and it wasn't as harsh as it looked at a casual glance; whatever, I'm tired and it's been a rough day. I don't have the juice to read charitably, process, and do the whole deal.)

If someone will please compile all outstanding questions, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. I would suggest dividing the work up, with various people taking two or three pages each.

Click to shrink...

Oh geez. I'll start a Google doc.

If I may, would you mind saying which questions are already in QUINOA. Not the projected answers, of course, just the existing questions.

EDIT: Started! I'm limiting it to questions that were asked after Chapter 698 because we need to start somewhere. People can contribute at the link below:

Questions In Need of Answers

Questions in Need of Answers (Player Tracked) Please only put questions that were asked after Chapter 698 came out. https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/marked-for-death-a-rational-naruto-quest.24481/post-33978710 [QUOTE="Kyreneryk, post: 33978710, member: 66465"] Actually, @eagle...

docs.google.com

 

[faflec]

Oh geez. I'll start a Google doc.

If I may, would you mind saying which questions are already in QUINOA. Not the projected answers, of course, just the existing questions.

EDIT: Started! I'm limiting it to questions that were asked after Chapter 698 because we need to start somewhere. People can contribute at the link below:

Questions In Need of Answers

Questions in Need of Answers (Player Tracked) Please only put questions that were asked after Chapter 698 came out. https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/marked-for-death-a-rational-naruto-quest.24481/post-33978710 [QUOTE="Kyreneryk, post: 33978710, member: 66465"] Actually, @eagle...

docs.google.com

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Think we scraped all the questions we can from the thread. I'm not going on Discord, though

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

saw a whole bunch of stuff about how elemental comes should totes get chakra transfers and we were being unreasonable by saying they couldn't and etc.

Click to shrink...

For what it's worth, no one actually articulated this position that I can see - at least, the strongest feelings were 'I would have made a different call were I a QM but I don't think they're out of line'.

 

[_The_Bomb]

I'm multiple pages behind and am not going to have the juice to catch up tonight or probably tomorrow morning, and then I'm at work. I tried to catch up, but (a) things are moving very fast and (b) I started reading, saw a whole bunch of stuff about how elemental comes should totes get chakra transfers and we were being unreasonable by saying they couldn't and etc. (I dunno, maybe I didn't read carefully enough and it wasn't as harsh as it looked at a casual glance; whatever, I'm tired and it's been a rough day. I don't have the juice to read charitably, process, and do the whole deal.)

If someone will please compile all outstanding questions, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. I would suggest dividing the work up, with various people taking two or three pages each.

Click to shrink...

Oh geez. I'll start a Google doc.

If I may, would you mind saying which questions are already in QUINOA. Not the projected answers, of course, just the existing questions.

EDIT: Started! I'm limiting it to questions that were asked after Chapter 698 because we need to start somewhere. People can contribute at the link below:

Questions In Need of Answers

Questions in Need of Answers (Player Tracked) Please only put questions that were asked after Chapter 698 came out. https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/marked-for-death-a-rational-naruto-quest.24481/post-33978710 [QUOTE="Kyreneryk, post: 33978710, member: 66465"] Actually, @eagle...

docs.google.com

Click to shrink...

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

I have gone all posts from the end of Chapter 699 until here and compiled all QuINOA into this google document. I also left it open, so people could add other things from between Chapter 698 and Chapter 699 if they have the time. Or, if new questions get posted after this and I don't notice them.

Each QuINOA is seperated by horizontal lines, and is roughly in the format of:

---

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads...[link to the question that was posted in thread]

[ QUOTE="Example, post: ########, member: ######"]
[Any context to the question.]
[The question]
[/QUOTE]

---

I hope this helps!

 

[Left-Hand Mutant]

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

I have gone all posts from the end of Chapter 699 until and compiled all QuINOA into this google document. I also left it open, so people could add other things from between Chapter 698 and Chapter 699 if they have the time. Or, if new questions get posted after this and I don't notice them.

(Snip)

---

I hope this helps!

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This is great, thank you.
One thought though, If I'm following the thread right, by far the most important outstanding question is something like:

"what are the chakra reserves, clone-hours, and maximum clone duration of the non-Sanin SC users that are present?(Including Mari)?'

"We understand that ninja are normally secretive about their exact abilities, but Hazou/Noburi/Kei have urgent specific reason to ask, and can directly turn this information into more combat power on this critical mission. Plus, Hazou potentially has two Sanin glaring from over his shoulder when he asks."

"Also, knowing this would let the playerbase do a lot of maths for you, as opposed to throwing an optimization target at Kei and forcing the QMs to spend spoons figuring it out, which ~nobody wants"


Would it be appropriate to highlight that question somehow?

 

[_The_Bomb]

Would it be appropriate to highlight that question somehow?

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As you know, google docs has a highlight feature right next to the text color feature. Go wild.

 

[Cariyaga]

I'm multiple pages behind and am not going to have the juice to catch up tonight or probably tomorrow morning, and then I'm at work. I tried to catch up, but (a) things are moving very fast and (b) I started reading, saw a whole bunch of stuff about how elemental comes should totes get chakra transfers and we were being unreasonable by saying they couldn't and etc. (I dunno, maybe I didn't read carefully enough and it wasn't as harsh as it looked at a casual glance; whatever, I'm tired and it's been a rough day. I don't have the juice to read charitably, process, and do the whole deal.)

If someone will please compile all outstanding questions, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. I would suggest dividing the work up, with various people taking two or three pages each.

Click to shrink...

In essence, the idea regarding elemental clone is the following:

• [Elemental Clones] clones have a ten minute duration
• Water clones, at the very least, can be losslessly drained by Noburi (presumably minus the startup cost)
• The person that casts the water clones can be provided chakra water

From this, you can do the following:

• Someone with little XP (and so cheap clones) casts Water Clone, imbuing it with all of their chakra
• This process is repeated across all of the chakra regen we have access to. That is to say, we skim the chakra regen of the entire attack force (22k, IIRC) for this and have a shitton of water clones for Noburi to drain at the time of the attack, cycled constantly (every ten minutes) back into people.
• When nearing the end of the duration, that water clone is drained of its chakra, the chakra is provided back to the person that drained it, after siphoning what they have regenerated in the meantime.
• In this way, we can push chakra forward through time.

Our initial idea was to use water clones instead of redistributing the chakra back to the person who then makes them but I'm pretty sure that results in the water clones popping, so: This instead.

This does require the person creating clones to stay awake for the duration of it, though.

Based on our calculations this may get us around 4k extra chakra. If anything is unclear let me know!

 

[Cariyaga]

This is great, thank you.
One thought though, If I'm following the thread right, by far the most important outstanding question is something like:

"what are the chakra reserves, clone-hours, and maximum clone duration of the non-Sanin SC users that are present?(Including Mari)?'

"We understand that ninja are normally secretive about their exact abilities, but Hazou/Noburi/Kei have urgent specific reason to ask, and can directly turn this information into more combat power on this critical mission. Plus, Hazou potentially has two Sanin glaring from over his shoulder when he asks."

"Also, knowing this would let the playerbase do a lot of maths for you, as opposed to throwing an optimization target at Kei and forcing the QMs to spend spoons figuring it out, which ~nobody wants"


Would it be appropriate to highlight that question somehow?

Click to shrink...

The QMs could also provide us this information out of character for us to calculate it ourselves.

 

[Lysbeth Succubus]

So what do we think Mari's plan is? My assumption is "aim for coordination through song, make so many SCs it's no longer funny, have them come from everywhere around, and use the precise timing when clones pop given by the coordinated song to know exactly the shape and size of the area of denial effect" but my thinking is influenced by (1) fatigue-induced tunnel vision (2) Naruto's personal way of going about stuff (3) an old HFY/"humans are space australians" post where future humans used songs to measure spacetime distortions and adjust their course in hyperspace jumps when going FTL.
There are other things it could be for, because Tsunade and Orochimaru are probably not that far behind Ami in terms of timing mastery...
Sending one stealthy clone not equidistant to the two Sannin further ahead for precise measurement? I don't think that's it, the clone could well be observed with a telescope or just... inform everyone of the location through its memories rather than triangulate it. Duh.
It can't be testing for "end of all chakra constructs" effects with basic/illusory/Academy clones, they don't make sound.
Hm. They should be far from the AoE when things explode. Hazō would of course have perfect timing. Oh, could they be launching Hazō clones, coordinating time precisely in tune with song? Then another Hazō could say at what point exactly the effect starts while being sent to scout ahead much faster than normal travel would allow? But Hazō's clones don't have the Iron Nerve... precision would go down.
I'm assuming they'd still be making use of the spare Hazō going around... but maybe Mari tried to spare them so we could catch some shinies. Then maybe she suggested sacrificing one of their clones or her own. I like the "start singing then fucking THROW someone" idea. Coiled snakes or Tsunade's... personal manners could propel one very fast indeed. Maybe faster than even Arikada could travel.
But it could well be something more clever. I'm too exhausted to be clever right now.
Singing. Speed, duration, coordination, patterns. I don't think pattern reproduction or disruption would be more important than seeing the clone pop. Speed: unless something affects the speed I don't think it's relevant. That leaves coordination and duration, which can help measure time (before going, or as an indirect way to measure space).
Also, pitch/notes/beauty but I don't think any of these can be relevant. Unless the Doppler effect is that well-known?

Apparently I didn't send this comment last night. Huh. Well, consider this speculation speculated.