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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
Water clones, at the very least, can be losslessly drained by Noburi (presumably minus the startup cost)
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Noburi can pull his own chakra back from a water clone that he made. I don't believe he can drain elemental clones, but @Velorien, @Paperclipped , or @faflec can correct me.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
So what do we think Mari's plan is? My assumption is "aim for coordination through song
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Yup. I left it out of the chapter so readers can have some surprise, but y'all can know it: everyone starts singing the same song at the same tempo. By prior agreement, Hazō is going to fire a RER shot at specific locations (eg "20 yards west of the initial shot") at specific points in the song. The assault team can bait enemies to those locations and substitute away just as the shot comes in.

Note: it's possible this idea doesn't work for one reason or another. If one of the other QMs points out something I missed then we'll simply say "yeah, the team tested it and decided it wasn't safe to try without more practice that they didn't have time for, so they didn't do it."
Lysbeth Succubus said:
. I like the "start singing then fucking THROW someone" idea.
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So do I. :>
 
eaglejarl said:
Noburi can pull his own chakra back from a water clone that he made. I don't believe he can drain elemental clones, but @Velorien, @Paperclipped , or @faflec can correct me.


Yup. I left it out of the chapter so readers can have some surprise, but y'all can know it: everyone starts singing the same song at the same tempo. By prior agreement, Hazō is going to fire a RER shot at specific locations (eg "20 yards west of the initial shot") at specific points in the song. The assault team can bait enemies to those locations and substitute away just as the shot comes in.

Note: it's possible this idea doesn't work for one reason or another. If one of the other QMs points out something I missed then we'll simply say "yeah, the team tested it and decided it wasn't safe to try without more practice that they didn't have time for, so they didn't do it."

So do I. :>
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Oh that's so clever! And Hazou can keep perfect time with the iron nerve so they only need to work out how to keep tempo amongst themselves.
 
Cariyaga said:
Tap his foot in time with the song.
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A possible explanation: Hazou presumably has an understanding of whether an Iron Nerve motion is currently underway. So simply keeping track of that and restarting whenever the last motion is done leads to consistent rhythm based on the interval defined by the motion. For greater long term accuracy and replication, pay attention to the initial small set (as little as 2x), Iron Nerve package it, and then repeat this on the packaged set, ad infinitum (as necessary).
 
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Halil said:
A possible explanation: Hazou presumably has an understanding of whether an Iron Nerve motion is currently underway. So simply keeping track of that and restarting whenever the last motion is done leads to consistent rhythm based on the interval defined by the motion. For greater long term accuracy and replication, pay attention to the initial set, Iron Nerve package it, and then repeat the greater set, ad infinitum (as necessary).
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Or just have everyone practice together and he taps his foot that time and has it forevermore.
 
Ah, you could also keep time with regular explosives or similar, to keep everyone on site approximately on tempo. As long as it doesn't drift by more than a second or so it's fine.
 
eaglejarl said:
Noburi can pull his own chakra back from a water clone that he made. I don't believe he can drain elemental clones, but @Velorien, @Paperclipped , or @faflec can correct me.


Yup. I left it out of the chapter so readers can have some surprise, but y'all can know it: everyone starts singing the same song at the same tempo. By prior agreement, Hazō is going to fire a RER shot at specific locations (eg "20 yards west of the initial shot") at specific points in the song. The assault team can bait enemies to those locations and substitute away just as the shot comes in.

Note: it's possible this idea doesn't work for one reason or another. If one of the other QMs points out something I missed then we'll simply say "yeah, the team tested it and decided it wasn't safe to try without more practice that they didn't have time for, so they didn't do it."

So do I. :>
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When a theater put on a show and there's music and singing in it, it's an accurate rendition of the Battle of the Rift.
 
Cariyaga said:
Tap his foot in time with the song.
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Halil said:
A possible explanation: Hazou presumably has an understanding of whether an Iron Nerve motion is currently underway. So simply keeping track of that and restarting whenever the last motion is done leads to consistent rhythm based on the interval defined by the motion. For greater long term accuracy and replication, pay attention to the initial small set (as little as 2x), Iron Nerve package it, and then repeat this on the packaged set, ad infinitum (as necessary).
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It doesn't matter, Prime isn't using the RERS and the SCs don't have it
 
eaglejarl said:
Yup. I left it out of the chapter so readers can have some surprise, but y'all can know it: everyone starts singing the same song at the same tempo. By prior agreement, Hazō is going to fire a RER shot at specific locations (eg "20 yards west of the initial shot") at specific points in the song. The assault team can bait enemies to those locations and substitute away just as the shot comes in.
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Ah, I'd been thinking about strategies involving luring enemies into RER target zones and not come up with anything that seemed workable; this is excellent.
The one problem I can foresee is that you can't call your jutsu while singing. Unless they set jutsu names to music, and even then it constrains which ones can be used when.
 
eaglejarl said:
Yup. I left it out of the chapter so readers can have some surprise, but y'all can know it: everyone starts singing the same song at the same tempo. By prior agreement, Hazō is going to fire a RER shot at specific locations (eg "20 yards west of the initial shot") at specific points in the song. The assault team can bait enemies to those locations and substitute away just as the shot comes in.
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Don't the Pangolins make a point of having perfect timing? That could help. @faflec plz tell me I'm not crazy
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
IIRC, The one time we saw them hold a count, they ended up slightly out of sync, and each Pangolin blamed the others for being unable to keep count.
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In chapter 200, Pankurashun blames the humans he's with for not having learned to count at the right pace, relative to his count they're early by four and late by two, respectively:

eaglejarl said:
He stood before the south wall of the bunker, the Gomi and Haga humans crouching against the wall on either side of him. They stank worse than most humans and he was fairly sure that they were not maintaining an accurate count.

"Go," Haga whispered as she reached zero, four counts too early.

"Go," Gomi whispered a few seconds later, as he reached zero two counts too late.

"GO!" bellowed Pankurashun, the Drill Sergeant's Roar jutsu lifting his voice to levels that would be clearly audible to the three teams on the far side of the building. As the only team on the south side of the building it was their job to call the ball so that their team and the ones on the north would assault at the same time. There had been some discussion about how to coordinate, with the final decision being that all three members of the south-side team would count down from one hundred and when all three had hit zero they would assault. It seemed rather silly to Pankurashun; wouldn't it have been easier just to teach the little knobs to count at the right tempo? Or, better yet, to have Pankurashun count on his own? Still, no one had asked him and the Summoner's eldest brother had been excited.
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OrthernLight said:
In chapter 200, Pankurashun blames the humans he's with for not having learned to count at the right pace, relative to his count they're early by four and late by two, respectively:
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eaglejarl said:
GO!" Pankurashun bellowed from the other side of the bunker.

Pangaya rolled her eyes; the grizzled Lochagos must be getting senile, because he was three counts late. Still, perhaps it was the squishies' fault. Regardless, not her problem. It was time to have some fun!
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eaglejarl said:
Pandojuru squatted in the tunnel behind her, waiting for Pankurashun to signal the attack. Everyone was ready and the assault should begin in eight...seven...six...five...four...three...two...o—

"GO!" If Pankurashun's signal was the voice of a typhoon then Pandojuru's assault on the wall was the strike of a tsunami. She primed the tag as he reared up, a mountain of scaled muscle, and smashed his fists down—
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Other Pangolin on different counts.

Pankurashun and Panguya are arguably on the same count (pankurashun waiting until after a human who was "two counts slow", Panguya was three courts ahead of him), but Pandojuru is clearly not in sync(even slower than the guy everyone else agreed was to slow)
 
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Kyreneryk said:
Actually, @eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien , are there any Hyūga with the battlegroup chakra donation group? I assume there's at least one, because not sending any would be silly, but how many are there?
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No. Naruto explicitly didn't send any in hopes of preserving OPSEC on runes.

faflec said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped Are Shadow Clones allowed to overdraw chakra, for example if they need to use a technique? Please ignore if this is poking the worldbuilding too much.
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No. Only biological beings can overdraw. Shadow clones, elemental clones, and summons on the Human Path are chakra constructs. HDK whether summons on the Seventh Path (i.e. in their own bodies) are capable of overdrawing.

_The_Bomb said:
Paperclipped said:
His direct combat skills are among the best in Akatsuki, so I won't linger long on his combat ninjutsu – you may assume he has a technique suited to any situation.
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Has Orochimaru elaborated on the specifics of Kisame's combat ninjutsu (that he is aware of) to the various summons participating in the assault?
I'm not actually asking for the details (although I'd love to get that list later as it'd be incredibly inspirational to see what situations Hazō might want ninjutsu for!), since my primary concern is whether the participants of the battle have been briefed offscreen. There's a large advantage in knowing how your enemies' tricks work.

This way, instead of developing a gigantic list of ninjutsu knowing most of which will never see the light of day, no further work is required beyond the ninjutsu actually pinned down and used in the chapter, which the combatants will have an easier time countering having already been prepared for it.
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As someone with Tailed Beast levels of chakra, Kisame has enough ninjutsu that listing them is not a good use of time. Orochimaru has given everyone a detailed briefing on what he expects to actually come up. We'll decide later if this actually has game-mechanical benefits.

_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Do Air Leadeners make explosives more deadly the same way they would be if they went off underwater?
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No. Hazō speculates that since seal/rune explosives are chakra magic rather than natural physical effects, when activated they adjust to the world around them to have the intended effect even if the environment is slightly different (just as fire ninjutsu adjusts not to burn the user when it comes out).

_The_Bomb said:
18scsc said:
I have gone deep into the spreadsheets and come out with an even more optimized Chakra budget. We can recover 13600+ CP over 17 hours with careful usage of SCs as chakra capacitors. This would allow us a total of 35,600 CP to work with, allowing us to afford:

  1. 10x Hazō SCs with a total of 400 CP each + Further CP ear marked for runic infusions.
  2. 5x Tsunade SCs w/ Strength of 100 (1600 CP each).
  3. 10x Orochimaru SCs w/ 600 CP each
  4. All 5 bosses.
  5. Ma and Pa
  6. All 20 jonin summons.
  7. 5x Kurenai SCs w/ 500 CP each
  8. 3x Mari SCs w/ 500 CP each
[spoilers containing the math]
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@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien

Would we be allowed to do something like this?
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Yes, that works.

Sir Stompy said:
I'm kind of leery about significantly changing this after voting closes.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Do you guys mind if we change the write up a little to get greater efficiencies at this point? Or should we leave it as is?
Also the assumptions in the write up might be wrong in some cases so it would be good if we had a chance to revise it in case the facts on the ground don't match. I also mostly referring to the assumption that 3/8 jounin know SC at level 40, is that the case? Or do we not have that many? If we have more that's fine, no need to change things.
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It's fine. We'll be doing an interlude today regardless. Might even do one for Sunday as well, since apparently y'all have discovered a new secret spreadsheet technique that gets you a gazillion extra CP.

_The_Bomb said:
Paperclipped said:
Firstly, she can activate seals remotely. This was a source of no small headache to me. In the conflict where Hiruzen died, I believe Jiraiya had approximately a tenth of a second to cast his seal-pouch away before it exploded on his hip, and she was the reason why, at Nagi Island, we three stayed on the ground where a moment of focus from Konan wouldn't cause us an untimely fall. As it was, a key objective was to keep her too occupied to let her drop our people to their deaths with a thought.
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
What are the Sannin's thoughts on using this exact method against Akatsuki? That is, preparing an Icarus rune and then activating it mid-combat to make everyone fall to their deaths.
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TSUNADE: Sounds like a great plan. Go for it.

Orochimaru notes that Akatsuki will definitely notice if their enemies massively disadvantage themselves by staying on the ground against aerial combatants, and figure out that some kind of anti-air trick is imminent.

_The_Bomb said:
Velorien said:
If you granted Tsunade another 1000 CP per clone, she could prepare a weaker version of Strength of a Hundred for them as a pre-battle buff.
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@18scsc @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Let's say Tsuande creates a shadow clone who we fill up to 600 CP, and then give an extra 1000 CP for her Strength of Hundred buff.
Assuming that Shadow Clone sits around for a few hours and does nothing else:
  • Would Noburi be able to drain 1600 CP from her, or just 600 CP?
  • Would dispelling herself redistribute 1600 CP along the Tsuande network, or just 600 CP?
Basically, we want to know what the maximum amount of storage we could get from a Tsunade shadow clone.
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18scsc said:
Bump.

Tbh we don't need an exact amount. IC the question might be "do you use all the chakra for So100 at once, like a normal jutsu?" and then "will you need to refill after using So100, or do you have enough reserves to be fully combat ready directly after casting the buff?"

I understand that chakra regeneration isn't constant, and that other characters don't have the spreadsheet vision necessary to be perfect chakra capacitors.

My thought is that we can just establish a common sense baseline for what sort of order of magnitude is possible. Aka "we can feasibly get 13k CP out of using shadow clones as capacitors" and then you guys can just roll to determine the "margin of error". That way we can abstract away all the other fuzzy factors like "do any of the noncombatant leaf-nin have SC" or "exact chakra regen rate at any given hour" or "how many clone hours the sannin are willing to commit to being capacitors".
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Doylist: There are too many moving parts in this question for our spoons.

Watsonian: Tsunade is not willing to disclose her capabilities to the extent you are asking.
 
Velorien said:
Orochimaru notes that Akatsuki will definitely notice if their enemies massively disadvantage themselves by staying on the ground against aerial combatants, and figure out that some kind of anti-air trick is imminent.
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Excellent. Most of them have non-skywalker flight, but they won't know what kind of anti-air to expect, so this might make them hesitate to fly where just activating Icarus wouldn't.

Plus, this means that any fliers are likely to be Akatsuki, so Hazou can take RER shots at them without risking friendly fire.

@Sir Stompy @redzonejoe I suggest using Ninja-radar to check if Konan is present(a distributed cloud of chakra tunneled underground is pretty distinctive), and if so, switch to Icarus runes instead of Air Leadeners, and have Hazou use RERs to kill/suppress Akatsuki fliers.
 
Can he retarget an RER fast enough to even point at the right zone when trying to hit a target who's on the move?

Edit: "At least a standard" to rotate it, so in the best case a crew of two Hazōs can do this, with one rotating it and another activating it on the same turn. If it's ruled to take more than a turn to rotate, however, then it's much less useful against someone who's moving between zones every turn (which I expect flyers tend to) unless you anticipate where they're going. You'll get them in the splash radius reasonbly often unless they're moving really fast, but almost never in the central zone.
 
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OrthernLight said:
Can he retarget an RER fast enough to even point at the right zone when trying to hit a target who's on the move?

Edit: "At least a standard" to rotate it, so in the best case a crew of two Hazōs can do this, with one rotating it and another activating it on the same turn. If it's ruled to take more than a turn to rotate, however, then it's much less useful against someone who's moving between zones every turn (which I expect flyers tend to) unless you anticipate where they're going. You'll get them in the splash radius reasonbly often unless they're moving really fast, but almost never in the central zone.
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Ping the QMs?

And again, we'll probably have a bunch of low-chakra snowflakes left over from our S-rank spreadsheeting, they're great at maths and aiming and can be part of our gunnery team if needed.
 
_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

I have gone all posts from the end of Chapter 699 until here and compiled all QuINOA into this google document. I also left it open, so people could add other things from between Chapter 698 and Chapter 699 if they have the time. Or, if new questions get posted after this and I don't notice them.

Each QuINOA is seperated by horizontal lines, and is roughly in the format of:
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads...[link to the question that was posted in thread]

[ QUOTE="Example, post: ########, member: ######"]
[Any context to the question.]
[The question]
[ /QUOTE]

I hope this helps!
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Hey everyone! The lovely EagleJarl has gone through this and added all the questions that have been formatted with source links and SV quotes to the QM QUINOA document.

So far, those were just the questions from Chapter 699 onward that I added last night. There are still a couple of questions from before Chapter 699 that couldn't be added because they didn't have the necessary context, like quotes or source links. If you'd like them to be counted, please go back and add the missing quotes or links for context.

If anyone has some free time, it would be amazing if folks could help go through the thread pages before Chapter 699 to find any QM questions that haven't been noticed yet. Unfortunately, I won't be able to help much more with this right now, as I'm a bit swamped. Once we've gathered all the questions from before Chapter 699 and added them to the document with the proper context, EagleJarl has asked to be pinged so that he can review and finalize everything. Thanks so much for your help—your efforts are hugely appreciated!
 
Velorien said:
Orochimaru notes that Akatsuki will definitely notice if their enemies massively disadvantage themselves by staying on the ground against aerial combatants, and figure out that some kind of anti-air trick is imminent.
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Paperclipped said:
Firstly, she can activate seals remotely. This was a source of no small headache to me. In the conflict where Hiruzen died, I believe Jiraiya had approximately a tenth of a second to cast his seal-pouch away before it exploded on his hip, and she was the reason why, at Nagi Island, we three stayed on the ground where a moment of focus from Konan wouldn't cause us an untimely fall. As it was, a key objective was to keep her too occupied to let her drop our people to their deaths with a thought.
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Isn't this standard procedure when Konan might be involved? It's what the Sannin did the last time they fought her.
 
eaglejarl said:
Yup. I left it out of the chapter so readers can have some surprise, but y'all can know it: everyone starts singing the same song at the same tempo. By prior agreement, Hazō is going to fire a RER shot at specific locations (eg "20 yards west of the initial shot") at specific points in the song. The assault team can bait enemies to those locations and substitute away just as the shot comes in.

Note: it's possible this idea doesn't work for one reason or another. If one of the other QMs points out something I missed then we'll simply say "yeah, the team tested it and decided it wasn't safe to try without more practice that they didn't have time for, so they didn't do it."
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Haven't gotten around to responding your questions on the big discussion subject yet, but saw this during low spoon skimming and thought to remind you that we've had canon chapters where it was said that ninja academy teaches even and precise counting for exactly this reason. I don't know how realistic that is IRL, but I don't know how realistic any of the taijutsu and weapons combat without chakra boost or the Mist sleep deprivation training is either.

Edit: @faflec Do you remember the chapter? I often worry I might just have dreamt it at some point.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
As the Sage intended
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Honestly, I really love that this is happening. Our rune contributions are already pretty awesome, I won't lie, but it hits different to see Hazou's creative optimization skills shine through at the last minute. The sort of thing where we tell them our idea and they blink and run the numbers themselves and realize this was always on the table if they had merely thought of it themselves.

Most ninja powers, as much as they're earned through long hard work, don't say all that much about the person behind them. We show up with runes and they clearly prove our value to the mission, but it's like they're our price of admission, a ticket that lets Hazou work directly with the Sannin regardless of what else he is or isn't capable of. But creativity, the simple process of fitting puzzle pieces together until we've squeezed every last drop of value out of the tools at our disposal, anyone can do that. We didn't spend a year researching creativity in the wilderness, we haven't hoarded ancient secrets of creativity that Tsunade and Orochimaru simply couldn't hope to keep up with. We just... did our best.

There's a reason action heroes so often earn their wins through creativity as much as anything else, why it tends to be the decisive factor that wins them the fight. Regardless of what other powers you have, your ability to make good use of what you have always speaks directly to your merit. By doing this, we prove ourselves not just a dispenser of runes, not just some kid piggybacking on other people's strength, but a valuable presence in our own right.
 
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