Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
This plan requires a lot of Earthshaping from Hazou. I don't think that's a good idea for a couple of reasons
1) ES is a public jutsu and we don't want to bring attention to it. Doing lots of really cool things with it publicly is probably not a good idea
2) Hazou is a very busy man, this requires lots and lots of his time. We really want to be focusing on FOOMing, seal research, and Clan Head stuff. We're already cutting into FOOM time balancing seal research and Clan Head stuff. This plan is adding a lot of additional work for Hazou at a time where he is stretched thin.
I think most of these things should be cut. We're richer than God now, let's hire it out. We can still have the things, but without Hazou's personal efforts.
We really don't need ES-reinforced walkways and the like. It's a cool idea, but ultimately something we can live without.
OTOH I think this is a great idea, I love the idea of Leaf's greatest heroes (and Akane ofc) lighting up the Estate. It's a great use for ES too, we've already done lots of statues with it, so it reveals no new capabilities to the general public, and a dozen or so statues isn't too much of a time commitment from Hazou.
Ahhh yes the great Dick Debate. I think we should go all in on the size of the Jiraiya statue, but let's just not make a public statement about Jiraiya's cock.
It's a great meme, but we're trying to be respected in Leaf and it's not worth the "WTF are those crazy Goketsu thinking" reactions IMO.
And I remain fully convinced that clothes on a statue are just dumb.
Let's just make a really big impressive statue of Jiraiya in a public place, and once we rez him we can give it a huge bulge as a prank one day.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I would probably mention that they led us to believe this on purpose tbh. Hazou WAS ignorant but they preyed on his and Kei's ignorance.
Also, may be worth reinforcing that Hazou does not believe ignorance makes him less guilty regarding the Condors, but that he does not feel like he violated any oath given that the deal was made under false pretenses (or maybe just the first part of this paragraph, up to you)
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
The Nezbians are out here talking game theory and incentives and signaling and precommitment...
Are the Rat clan goddamn... rats? Like... rationalists?
Magnificent.
I feel like they would take x-risk more seriously if they were, ngl
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Changes made, pls review.
I want to say something about how the Rat's ideas work great when you can trust the other party but when you realize you can't trust the other party, what do you do? Because that's the situation we found ourselves in, and honestly I think we did the best we could in a bad situation.
Like...yeah. We ended the agreement in good faith.
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- Location
- Europe
We already sold Skytowers to Leaf.
And we got:
- 5 Ninjutsu
- 5 Contracts (And Panashe is the most useful summon in the entire quest)
- Shit ton of money that we used during the Exams
Also, just blame @faflec , it was his plan:
Blame faflec Link
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
No, no, what you do is you gradually change the statue every night until Jiraiya's doing something embarrassing, and no one even notices the change.
- Location
- Europe
Didn't see Ipsos Custodes post.
We got 5 new ninjutsu, Didn't really count PTJ.
We still can use Panashe and according to her sheet at least the others.
Wedefinitely got PTJ, PH, GS and Earth Armor
We got Kagome Lightning Release: Pangolin Flash Technique, so hopefully he has that one. I don't think anyone got Exploring Tounge.
We still agreed to the deal and then ended it. There was no renegotiation or recompensation that they agreed on. You want to show up 1-2 years later and say "here have some diamonds"?
We got 5 new ninjutsu, Didn't really count PTJ.
We still can use Panashe and according to her sheet at least the others.
Wedefinitely got PTJ, PH, GS and Earth Armor
We got Kagome Lightning Release: Pangolin Flash Technique, so hopefully he has that one. I don't think anyone got Exploring Tounge.
We still agreed to the deal and then ended it. There was no renegotiation or recompensation that they agreed on. You want to show up 1-2 years later and say "here have some diamonds"?
Fair enough! ...wait, did Enma also agree to supporting us on our "oathbreaker" image? I know he's coming to help us with our little dragon issue, but did we explicitly include other forms of support?
The Rats didn't seem to care about the reason for breaking a deal so much as the fact it was broken. They basically told Hazou he should have endured that terrible deal rather than be an oathbreaker; the other clans wouldn't have assumed Hazou was pangolin-evil, just that he was keeping his promise. We don't have that option anymore. As AntiSanity mentioned above, having a clan support our image would be both less risky and more effective. The conclave won't last long, so building trust might be difficult without involving others.
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- Europe
Nah, we pretty much knew:
That was before we even joined Leaf.
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- a
I mean technically, it wasn't in our face until the fall of the condors.
But yeah, anyone who think that giving weapons to a culture that already appears to be highly militaristic, have no issues with slavery, and talk about the destruction of their enemies many rimes will only use seals for "defensive purposes" is definitely wrong wrong.
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- a
Is there any other plans other than the clear communication one? I feel that saying we believe that pangolins are defensively fighting will not end well for us.
Either we looked like incredibly stupid for missing something obvious or we just don't care who make deals with.
Either we looked like incredibly stupid for missing something obvious or we just don't care who make deals with.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] Update 'Promising Sealing Student' to 'Upcoming Sealing Prodigy'
[X] Update 'Promising Sealing Student' to 'Youngest Sealing Jounin'
[X] Action Plan: A Cause for Celebration
(At the very least, that was the take that I remember saying myself, if not in as many words. I definitely remember predicting that the Condors were militaristic warmongers just like the Pangolins and the Kages.)
It's only later that we realized, no, the Pangolins are actually The Worst and the Condors were an entirely innocent people. And as mentioned by others, this ignorance was deliberately cultivated by the Pangolins who, above and beyond their normal levels of propaganda, had an interest in keeping their arms dealers from understanding the injustice of their war.
We aren't innocent. We knew we were giving military power to an awful Clan, power which they'd use to harm others. But we did think they were fighting a defensive war (and just perfectly willing to go on the offensive if given the chance) and IIRC we didn't really understand how much it would help them. I recall being distinctly surprised at the news that Condor had fallen, instead of Pangolin just taking the advantage and maybe seizing some territory with that advantage. Even under our false beliefs that the Condors were also awful, we did not predict that we would cause total subjugation of a Clan.
So it's complicated. We deliberately supported warmongers knowing exactly that's what they are. We were exploited with lies and withheld knowledge. We underestimated the impact of our bargain. We went through with it anyways, knowing that we only had one source for our perspective. I feel a strong case could be made that our defining characteristic here is hubris: we did not look deeper, did not question the stories we told ourselves even as we acknowledged the unreliability of our information. We did not believe our actions could cause true harm, despite how much was offered in exchange. And when we saw ourselves from the outside, learned the truth that contradicted what we led ourselves to believe, the veil fell away and we saw how foolish we had truly been.
[X] Update 'Promising Sealing Student' to 'Youngest Sealing Jounin'
[X] Action Plan: A Cause for Celebration
I remember, at the time, a common thread of discussion being that the Pangolins were probably representative of all cultures on the Seventh Path. Between the skies coloured like a grand strategy game and the extant cultural framework of "all the ninja villages are ruthless machiavellian dictatorships eager to wage war whenever they can", we figured the Condors were just as militant and aggressive as the Pangolins were. And if we're willing to support our local dictator against the other dictators to advance Uplift, why wouldn't we do the same for our local 7Path dictator?
(At the very least, that was the take that I remember saying myself, if not in as many words. I definitely remember predicting that the Condors were militaristic warmongers just like the Pangolins and the Kages.)
It's only later that we realized, no, the Pangolins are actually The Worst and the Condors were an entirely innocent people. And as mentioned by others, this ignorance was deliberately cultivated by the Pangolins who, above and beyond their normal levels of propaganda, had an interest in keeping their arms dealers from understanding the injustice of their war.
We aren't innocent. We knew we were giving military power to an awful Clan, power which they'd use to harm others. But we did think they were fighting a defensive war (and just perfectly willing to go on the offensive if given the chance) and IIRC we didn't really understand how much it would help them. I recall being distinctly surprised at the news that Condor had fallen, instead of Pangolin just taking the advantage and maybe seizing some territory with that advantage. Even under our false beliefs that the Condors were also awful, we did not predict that we would cause total subjugation of a Clan.
So it's complicated. We deliberately supported warmongers knowing exactly that's what they are. We were exploited with lies and withheld knowledge. We underestimated the impact of our bargain. We went through with it anyways, knowing that we only had one source for our perspective. I feel a strong case could be made that our defining characteristic here is hubris: we did not look deeper, did not question the stories we told ourselves even as we acknowledged the unreliability of our information. We did not believe our actions could cause true harm, despite how much was offered in exchange. And when we saw ourselves from the outside, learned the truth that contradicted what we led ourselves to believe, the veil fell away and we saw how foolish we had truly been.
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- Europe
I agree that this was a suprise, the first deal was just 10 Skytowers.
Doesn't help that we heard that the Pangolin, Toads and Otters were in an (defensive) alliance against them.
But
I don't think we were tricked, the Pangolin didn't really hide any intentions from us.
The part I quoted also showed that they went on the offensive with two more clans (Hyena and Leopard (that seemingly later became allies against the Hyena))
So we weren't tricked into anything at this point anymore, we knew that they were very agressive and could have investigated more at this point.
I think one of the ways to deal with the Rat's here is a) talking about the fact that we didn't realize that the Pangolin-Toad-Otter alliance was mostly defensive. (Maybe we should ask somebody what the Toad-Condor war/fighting in the past was about, but we can just ask the Toads). And b) that we trusted Jiraiya, a learned statesman and someone who was 30-40 years the Toad summoner and travled the place a bit to accept the deal originally.
Pointing out that Hazou ended the deal as NEW clan head, might work better as excuse. @FaintlySorcerous ?
Hazou could than compare it to his own travels and that he, Kagome, Enma and Orochimaru did take the Great Seal serious and married Kumokogo to see it. So yes, Hazou does actually take Oath's serious.
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- United States
We agreed to a deal, did the deal for a while, and then stopped the ongoing exchange portion.
Imagine it was a month to month apartment rental with a signing bonus - we got the bonus, paid rent for a few months as agreed to, and then decided to move. Or a credit card bonus, we got our free tote bag in the mail, used the card for a few months, then canceled it. Your landlord/credit card isn't going to sue you and say there was the implied term of the deal that you continue living there/using that card for at least 20 years, if there's a minimum duration that needed to be specified and part of the agreement.
We never intended or believed this was an agreement in perpetuity, that the Goketsu would forever need to dedicate some time every month to making these seals (or even buying them if the clan no longer had a qualified Sealmaster) and have Kei, or the next Pangolin Summoner, or the one after that, etc. give them in exchange for gold. That in the event of a Pangolin peace they would still be required to keep providing gold no matter what every month in exchange for seals they're not using and no longer want?
The only genuine negative interpretation is that the negotiations were always in bad faith and we negotiated a much more beneficial signing bonus with some irrevocable elements knowing that we intended to end the deal long before the Pangolins expected to get their recompense for that upfront cost.
It's genuinely surprising why everyone is viewing this as a broken contract/oathbreaking *unless* the expectation on the 7th Path is that, in fact, contracts are perpetual unless stated otherwise. In which case this is a true misunderstanding because we never would have negotiated a permanent obligation on the clan, at least not like that.
We've already been told that the Pangolins were upset we shared the jutsu in an clan that is primarily growing through adoptions, that they expected that it would be a very slow and gradual natural birth-based process that the clan would grow.
The Pangolins have buyer's remorse for not clarifying terms upfront and making some assumptions - about how human clans grow, about how much the Goketsu needed the deal and would continue it until the Pangolins canceled it, etc.
They are unwilling to admit their mistakes during negotiations, especially since Pantsaa negotiated directly, so instead they're ostensibly spreading some false/misleading description of what we did in order to have Hazou painted as an Oathbreaker and Pantsaa painted as competent.
After all, how else can their Clan Leader/military commander/religious head save face for a war that abruptly ended mid-fighting because your arms dealer decided to discontinue selling more arms after getting a very nice signing bonus because your negotiater (said leader) never thought to include a duration or cancelation clause? Especially when Kei wasn't exactly a skilled or experienced negotiater herself and the Pangolins probably thought the Goketsu got taken to the cleaners in that deal.
Which, let's be honest, they did. A continual supply of a major military asset which unilaterally allowed the invasion and conquering of 1.5 neighboring Clans in mere months in exchange for what's really not that much gold, Summoning contracts (which enhanced the power and prestige of their own summoner), some jutsu (which are very basic, and one is a training jutsu every Pangolin knows), and some diamonds?
There's mine, don't think there's a lot of interest in it though.
- Location
- Europe
Which is why I said that we never got to renegotiate. We did agree to the whole every month part.
And were sticking to the letter of the agreement, I would argue that we aren't doing anything wrong.
Some people want to do basically the same? "We didn't know that X"? Sellers remose?
Four non-elemental jutsu like this are actually pretty rare, that's the huge advantage, especially for a clan of people with very different abilities.
The deal originally also included a telepathic communication jutsu:
And, yes, we did get screwed. Twice.
Our very first deal with 10 Skytowers gave us a rather useless Wind ninjutsu and Pajandrum, who is technically strong, but also a lazy Pangolin. This second deal was a lot better, but it benefited them more.
But we still agreed to the deal, then just broke it.
I am not arguing about the part where the Pangolin are making themselves look like victims. I am arguing about us trying to weasle out of our part of the Deal by ignoring facts.
It's correct that we didn't agree on a time limit for the deal, but ending the deal after four months and in the middle of their war and then going "I never agreed on doing this forever", is just a terrible excuse. How do we come of as an potential reliable ally for other people? And claiming ignorance about their intention is both wrong and makes us look stupid.
[][Conclave] Pangolin Propaganda Opposed
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- Location
- Italy
But wasn't the war the Pangolins decision? It's like us renting an apartment and the tenant deciding to use the rented apartment as lynchpin for a illegal fighting ring by taking massive loans. It isn't us breaking the deal that screwed them, it was them doing irresponsible stuff and expecting us to cover for them for no reason, when we don't have the obligation to do so.
I mean, yes, we aren't reliable allies? Not being trustworthy allies of the Pangolins is a good thing. Neither are the Rats to the Pangolins, as they changed the current trade aggrements adding tarrifs, the point isn't that we're trustworthy allies or not, the point is "Is Hazou an oathbreaker?" To which the answer is "No?" IMHO.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Of note:
This one was removed from existence per QM discussion, not withdrawn from the deal by the Pangolins in-universe.
Editing to add:
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- a
The old qm comes back to provide us with info again!
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- floating away
Yes, but even in the pangolins story where the contract was perpetual, he never made any oath. He supposedly "took the blame" as in, ordered somebody else who also made no oaths to stop supplying skytowers to Kei. But he wasn't the one who negotiated the contract, he wasn't the clan head who swore the oath, and he wasn't the one who made the skytowers. He can't even infuse the things!
The only people who swore oaths were Jiraiya and Kei, and Jiraiya is dead. Kei by oath should still be "trying" to get skytowers, but since she is not a sealmaster she has no means to independently acquire them.
Hazo's story should be that he has never even met Pantsa, never infused a 5SB, and never been party to any oaths with the pangolin clan, and therefore cannot be an oathbreaker.
Essentially just blame everything on Jiraiya and the pangolins, because that's the truth.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I understand not wanting to immediately agree to the Conclave due to an apparent lack of evidence, and I even agree that (from their perspective) Hazou isn't the most trustworthy source. But multiple Summoners are all saying the same thing. They're all giving the same story.
I know that Jiriaya said that all Summoning Clans are xenophobic to a degree, but it feels like the Rats are just dismissing the threat of the Dragons because the warning's coming from a Human and not a Summon.
At least the Turtles and Porcupines seem to be more open to listening. Maybe the Rats and other fence-sitters will be swayed by Enma.
Now we just need to figure out how to get Conjura to the Conclave.
I know that Jiriaya said that all Summoning Clans are xenophobic to a degree, but it feels like the Rats are just dismissing the threat of the Dragons because the warning's coming from a Human and not a Summon.
At least the Turtles and Porcupines seem to be more open to listening. Maybe the Rats and other fence-sitters will be swayed by Enma.