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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Paperclipped said:
The Gōketsu clan, led by Jiraiya, agreed to the contract with the understanding that it would last until ended by mutual consent. There was no fixed termination date. Hazō broke that contract.

If it seems better to have it terminable at any point, consider if the Gōketsu had engaged in expensive deals with large collateral costs for backing out (e.g. supplying raw gold to Hyūga goldsmiths), and had planned combat missions for Kei using the skills of her tessera, only for the Pangolins to say: "Hey, we finished conquering Hyena so we don't need skytowers anymore. We're not going to send you any more gold and her pangolins won't answer her summons. She's behind enemy lines in Lightning Country? You staked your house on a trade you won't be able to complete? Wow, that sounds like poor planning on your part."
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Didn't we explicitly provide a final shipment? In the reverse situation that would be enough time for Kei to return from Lightning with the backing of a Tessera she knows she'll soon lose. And we could provide gold to those Hyūga goldsmiths and have a whole month to think of an alternative to losing our house. And if our mortgage necessarily needed months and months of gold that could be cut off by something as simple as Kei, the deathworld inhabiting ninja currently on a mission in Lightning, losing her scroll during a mission then the house was either not even remotely as important as Kei, or we were right morons.

Anyway, I am very curious if all this means that the Pangolin Empire did not unilaterally recant any agreements when they changed from being led by a Hierophant to being led by a Polemarch. Which would mean that there never was a well written peace treaty between them and any of the people they've been at war with.

roobee said:
Can we spend a FP to say that hazou believed that the contract allowed unilateral terminations? With kei's response explained away as him believing she was being overly pessimistic?
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No FP should be needed. He literally alludes to thinking that in the chapter that Velorien linked. He just wasn't sure, because summons be weird, yo.
 
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Plan updates: pretty significant, cut the stuff about not believing that we weren't ending the deal unilaterally.

@faflec and @Shrooms (both of whom have given me permission to ping them with plan updates) please review.
FaintlySorcerous said:
This is giving up the XP bonus but for a one-day plan it seems worth it.

[X][Conclave] Clear Communication
Word count: <400
  • Sanity check/optimize with Mari/Kei.
  • Rats
    • Meet again.
    • Offer a copy Nara writings on game theory if the Rats are interested.
    • Explain CCnJ.
    • CCnJ:
      • You accept culpability for the Pangolin genocide.
        • At the time, it was beyond your imagining that the Pangolins would commit genocide. You have since re-calibrated.
        • Your chief failure was not asking enough questions.
      • Given the choice between continuing to enable genocide and breaking an oath, you broke your oath. You did so with consideration - a month's seals - but the harm done to the Condors by another month's Skytowers was, frankly, worth your honour.
        • The Pangolins would not have stopped with the Condors.
      • The deal was not made in good faith.
        • The Pangolins offered you jutsu, contracts, and money. They received utter military dominance.
        • Bargaining is inherently competitive but the Pangolins took advantage of Kei's inexperience and your lack of context to a degree incompatible with cooperation.
      • You have two questions: you're asking to better understand the Rats and the Seventh Path.
        • What would a Rat do if they realized they had sworn to violate their deepest-held morals? What do the Rats value above their word?
        • What would a Rat do if they agreed to a deal they later realized they fully understand?
      • Presently, you want a relationship with the Rats which allows you to cooperate towards shared goals: Condor freedom and the end of the Dragon threat.
        • Explain our hope for the Condors: you can set the stage for Conjura to demand the freedom of her people for her contributions. Backed by the other bosses, the Condors can find a new homeland in Archeopteryx territory.
        • You can't work together optimally: the Rats can't trust your word.
        • Contingent on providing sufficient evidence of the Dragons, what do they need from you to have a relationship sufficient for these purposes?
      • We have a contract with ourselves we will not violate - protect our loved ones and comrades, and preserve life. Our actions flow from that contract, above all else.
      • You admire the Rats and hope that one day, the Human Path resembles theirs.
  • Debrief with Enma, Ma and Pa. Should you pursue the Rats further? Are your efforts better spent elsewhere?
  • What the hell happened to Convei? Get her to the Conclave immediately.
  • Ask Kabuto/Asuma about borrowing Dragon parts for Conclave purposes.
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RandomOTP said:
Maybe Jiraiya felt comfy doing it because he was an S-ranker? We saw Orochimaru comfortably threaten our Spider Wife, so presumably S-rankers are a nominal threat to Clan Bosses. And if Jiraiya knew he had the backing (political and militaristic) of the Toads, should the Pabgokins cry foul... maybe he would? This was back when Naruto was kidnapped, right? Jiraiya was pretty desperate back then (see: Jiraiya almost killing Hiashi over the Hat).
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acidshill said:
In retrospect, I'm kind of surprised that the Gōketsu agreeing to a perpetual contract wasn't a red flag for Pantsā (because no sane person should do this unless they're willing to break the contract eventually).
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If I were to ignore what the QMs think, full death-of-the-author, this is what I would consider the most plausible explanation: Jiraya agrees to this because he's desperate, maybe not considering the implications, and figures worst come to worst he can just break the contract or bully Pantsā into changing it (because since when has he not been able to do that). He's not entering into this with the intention to honor the contract in all possible cases. And, to be fair to him, we were able to break the contract with basically zero consequences beyond our own reputation. So if he didn't think Hazō's honor and reputation were an asset worth protecting, he probably figures everything worked out splendidly. Pantsā, when he sees the humans are agreeing to a perpetual contract, probably figures they're willing to break it in at least some cases, but he's fine with this because he's absolutely fleecing them by acquiring an overwhelming victory in war in exchange for some gold and gems, a few not-very-valuable jutsu, and the labor of literally five people. He laughs all the way to the proverbial bank while he's receiving seals, and when Hazō ends the deal, he's already won a major war (if not conquered a quarter of the continent as he may have wished) and he gets to whine about the Gōketsu not keeping their agreements!

Rafin said:
Anyway, I am very curious if all this means that the Pangolin Empire did not unilaterally recant any agreements when they changed from being led by a Hierophant to being led by a Polemarch. Which would mean that there never was a well written peace treaty between them and any of the people they've been at war with.
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Probably those treaties weren't perpetual because, you know. Forever is a really long time.
 
Paperclipped said:
The Gōketsu clan, led by Jiraiya, agreed to the contract with the understanding that it would last until ended by mutual consent. There was no fixed termination date. Hazō broke that contract.

If it seems better to have it terminable at any point, consider if the Gōketsu had engaged in expensive deals with large collateral costs for backing out (e.g. supplying raw gold to Hyūga goldsmiths), and had planned combat missions for Kei using the skills of her tessera, only for the Pangolins to say: "Hey, we finished conquering Hyena so we don't need skytowers anymore. We're not going to send you any more gold and her pangolins won't answer her summons. She's behind enemy lines in Lightning Country? You staked your house on a trade you won't be able to complete? Wow, that sounds like poor planning on your part."
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I feel there is a disconnect between "Did we break the contract as the Rat intended" and "Was it cool of the Goketsu to do that" but...
The latter doesn't matter? we automatically win that battle with "It's wasn't cool of the Pangolin to commit genocide either, sorry if we weren't cool".
In this case...yeah, the Pangolin wouldn't have broken the contract, would they have betrayed us? Yes. Would they have they burned every further possibility of cooperation? Yes. But by definition they didn't break the contract.
As the current society shows(And there are reasons the laws invalidate some contracts)....contracts aren't fair? The contract wasn't fair with us obtaining far less stuff, because it's how contracts works. You don't get to add your understanding on the contract or unsaid words in it, because otherwise contracts are useless.
We could just say "Well, there was the implicit understanding on following the Sage principles of peace and prosperity" or something, everyone could invent everything.

EDIT: In short, that hypotetical situation is totally fair to the contract? It's not fair to us, and the Pangolin wouldn't have done so not because of the contract, but because it would piss us off and we were allied, at least in their opinion.
But us, the pangolin and the contract are three different things.
 
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acidshill said:
I think it would be better to have something that either party could terminate at any point—because then the possible downside is bounded—but not ideal. What would make more sense would be a contract with limited duration and/or exit clauses. For instance, the Gōketsu and Pangolins enter into an agreement lasting two years, which either party can terminate with one month notice if they pay a penalty or some other agreed-upon condition (e.g. force majeure, if Seventh Path common law doesn't already have a provision for that) obtains.
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I agree that it would have been good for the contract to have had an exit clause. Alas, that was not the case.
 
Upon further consideration: I think we can reasonably argue that Hazō broke Jiraya's word, not his own, and that he should not necessarily have been expected to keep Jiraya's word on account of the fact that what Jiraya agreed to was stupid. However, we can't honestly say that if what Jiraya agreed to wasn't stupid (e.g. limited duration with an exit clause), we would have abided by it (because Kei had already decided to break the contract by that point). Nor can we honestly say that if Hazō himself had given his word he necessarily would have kept it (Hazō is inconstant and insane enough that I don't find this credible, even if the Rats wouldn't know any better). Nor can we honestly say that Kei would have kept her word if not for Hazō (and even if Hazō didn't give his own word, I don't think we can argue that Kei didn't, she was the one who directly negotiated with Pantsā). And even if Hazō personally had no obligations, ordering your clanmate to break their own word is pretty problematic.

So all in all I don't think it's likely that we can meaningfully repair Hazō's reputation on the Seventh Path, long term, without telling unsustainable lies about Hazō's character and/or completely throwing Kei under the bus.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Plan updates: pretty significant, cut the stuff about not believing that we weren't ending the deal unilaterally.

@faflec and @Shrooms (both of whom have given me permission to ping them with plan updates) please review.
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Seems good. As one last addendum we may want to provide a strong argument about how we will avoid similar situations (IE, being duped into thinking we're helping a victim) in the future. If the Rats really are rationalist adjacent we should probably prove we learned something and updated our thinking

Might be something up @Noumero 's alley?
 
Shrooms said:
Seems good. As one last addendum we may want to provide a strong argument about how we will avoid similar situations (IE, being duped into thinking we're helping a victim) in the future. If the Rats really are rationalist adjacent we should probably prove we learned something and updated our thinking

Might be something up @Noumero 's alley?
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Done.
FaintlySorcerous said:
  • You accept culpability for the Pangolin genocide.
    • At the time, it was beyond your imagining that the Pangolins would commit genocide.
    • Your chief failure was not asking enough questions.
    • You have since re-calibrated and will not make the same class of mistake again.
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I don't know how we'd go about proving this - do you have any suggestions? The only evidence we can offer is our word, which we've established is not worth a whole lot.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
I don't know how we'd go about proving this - do you have any suggestions? The only evidence we can offer is our word
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I feel like for these guys we need logic more than specific evidence. At the very least, he's not a newbie to the 7th Path anymore and now that he's seen how people have reacted to him terminating even an unfair deal with the scum of the earth, he's pretty aware of the consequences of what will happen if he outright and deliberately breaks his word against the more well liked clans, and he's still willing to stick to his guns.
 
Honestly, we're going about this all wrong. We should maneuver Pantsaa (somehow) into admitting we're both cool with each other.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Jun 7, 2023 at 5:58 PM, finished with 288 posts and 25 votes.
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Voting is closed.

 
acidshill said:
If I were to ignore what the QMs think, full death-of-the-author, this is what I would consider the most plausible explanation: Jiraya agrees to this because he's desperate, maybe not considering the implications, and figures worst come to worst he can just break the contract or bully Pantsā into changing it (because since when has he not been able to do that). He's not entering into this with the intention to honor the contract in all possible cases. And, to be fair to him, we were able to break the contract with basically zero consequences beyond our own reputation. So if he didn't think Hazō's honor and reputation were an asset worth protecting, he probably figures everything worked out splendidly. Pantsā, when he sees the humans are agreeing to a perpetual contract, probably figures they're willing to break it in at least some cases, but he's fine with this because he's absolutely fleecing them by acquiring an overwhelming victory in war in exchange for some gold and gems, a few not-very-valuable jutsu, and the labor of literally five people. He laughs all the way to the proverbial bank while he's receiving seals, and when Hazō ends the deal, he's already won a major war (if not conquered a quarter of the continent as he may have wished) and he gets to whine about the Gōketsu not keeping their agreements!


Probably those treaties weren't perpetual because, you know. Forever is a really long time.
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I need to remind you that our action basically caused them to lose their further wars of expansion unexpectedly.

Pantsa and the pangolins iirc was really not happy about skytowers shipment being ending preventing them from achieving victory. So I don't think he and the pangolins was "laughing all the way to proverbial back" about losing access to skytowers at all.
 
Korporati said:
I need to remind you that our action basically caused them to lose their further wars of expansion unexpectedly.

Pantsa and the pangolins iirc was really not happy about skytowers shipment being ending preventing them from achieving victory. So I don't think he and the pangolins was "laughing all the way to proverbial back" about losing access to skytowers at all.
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I doubt Pantsā would have expected the deal to end as soon as it did, but he certainly was left much better off compared to his position before the deal, and paid very little for those gains. (What I meant was that he was laughing all the way to the bank before the deal was cancelled, not after.)
 
acidshill said:
I doubt Pantsā would have expected the deal to end as soon as it did, but he certainly was left much better off compared to his position before the deal, and paid very little for those gains. (What I meant was that he was laughing all the way to the bank before the deal was cancelled, not after.)
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I see

You are probably right about his position being better than before. But you forget that people( and I guess weird emperor of a summon clan-empire) aren't completely utilitarian either. From his perspective, he had signed a treaty that secured his dominance over the continent. Then, with merely one month of warning, the deal is over and your dreams of securing a quarter of continent is gone. Remember, if he had reservations about us breaking it, he wouldn't have continued his wars of expansion. The fact that he did means he didn't expect us at all to break it.

Also, I don't think some non elemental jutsu that is may or may not be spread among the human path be considered "very little gains". We are also forgetting that the summon path doesn't think like humans do either.
 
Korporati said:
I see

You are probably right about his position being better than before. But you forget that people( and I guess weird emperor of a summon clan-empire) aren't completely utilitarian either. From his perspective, he had signed a treaty that secured his dominance over the continent. Then, with merely one month of warning, the deal is over and your dreams of securing a quarter of continent is gone. Remember, if he had reservations about us breaking it, he wouldn't have continued his wars of expansion. The fact that he did means he didn't expect us at all to break it.

Also, I don't think some non elemental jutsu that is may or may not be spread among the human path be considered "very little gains". We are also forgetting that the summon path doesn't think like humans do either.
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Ehhhh I doubt they'd be conquering the entire continent. He'd get the Napoleon treatment after the next Clan or two. And 90 skytowers ain't that many when you have thousands of combats.

Plus it's hard to overstate the power of a Clan Boss on their home turf. They're roughly as strong as a Dragon. Conjura should have been able to smoke the entire Pangolin invasion by herself and it's frankly bizarre that she didn't.

If Pantsaa really looked like he wasn't ever going to stop, the other Bosses would band together and kick his teeth in.
 
Korporati said:
Also, I don't think some non elemental jutsu that is may or may not be spread among the human path be considered "very little gains". We are also forgetting that the summon path doesn't think like humans do either.
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The jutsu were valuable to us, but did not cost him very much to give up. I don't know why you're quoting "very little gains" as if I said that, I didn't.
 
Paperclipped said:
Thanks for compiling this.

This is your clan's current ninja roster:

Jōnin:
Mari
Yuno

Chūnin:
Hazō
Noburi
Kagome
Akane
Haru
Atomu
Reo
Yuma
Jin
Mio (Formerly Murai Mio, 4th chuunin adoptee)

Genin:
Kazushi (Formerly Fuyuki Kazushi, Kagome's student and research sealmaster)
Shinji (Formerly Sugiyama Shinji, Kagome's student, sealsmith)

Deceased:
Jiraiya (jōnin)
Mai (chūnin)
Misa (chūnin)
Haruki (chūnin)
Yūdai (genin)


There is some additional information available to you, accurate as of the end of quest year 1070.

Ages:
  • 44: Atomu
  • 37: Reo
  • 23: Jin
  • 19: Yuma
  • 18: Yuno, Akane, Shinji
  • 16: Hazō, Noburi, Haru, Mio
  • 14: Kazushi
  • ??: Mari, Kagome

Rough Combat Strength (without buffs):
  1. Yuno
  2. Akane, Jin, Shinji
  3. Noburi, Yuma, Haru
  4. Hazō, Mio, Atomu
  5. Kazushi, Reo
Each tier is unordered. Mari and Kagome not ranked as they likely would not comply with requests to display their combat abilities by Hazō (nor would ranking them by base combat stats be accurate, most likely.


Elemental Affinities:
  • Fire: Akane, Reo
  • Earth: Hazō, Atomu, Reo
  • Water: Mari, Noburi, Jin
  • Lightning: Mari, Yuno, Kagome, Haru, Reo, Mio, Kazushi, Shinji
  • Wind: Mari, Yuma

Combat Specialities:
  • Taijutsu: Hazō, Akane, Haru, Atomu, Jin, Mio, Kazushi
  • Melee Weapons: Yuno, Yuma, Shinji
  • Ninjutsu: Noburi, Reo
  • Trapmaking: Kagome
  • Genjutsu: Mari


Everything below this line is outdated.

Additionally, you have some ninja who are living on your estate, who aren't yet adopted:
"Gōketsu" Haruki (chūnin; medically retired)
Fuyuki Kazushi (genin)
Jinno Yūdai (genin)
Sugiyama Shinji (genin; member of Team Nakano)

The other members of Team Nakano (Nakano (recently field promoted chūnin), Genda (genin)) visit the estate fairly often. Fuyuki, Jinno, Sugiyama, and Genda have learned sealing from Kagome. They help produce explosive tags and storage seals for the clan. Additionally, Fuyuki and Jinno are research sealmasters, and have made minor original seals.

EDIT: Updated 12/12 -- Made a "Deceased" category, which included Jiraiya by default. Moved Mai and Misa after they died in the war, moved Haruki and Yūdai after they died in the sealing failure in Chapter 565.
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Oh hey, this needs updating.
 
Lord Marshal said:
You don't get to add your understanding on the contract or unsaid words in it, because otherwise contracts are useless.
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Actually that's exactly how contracts work. There needs to be what's known as a "meeting of the minds" and if you can show in court that you really meant different things then the contract can be invalidated.

For example, you see a Mustang in someone's driveway and knock on their door and ask if their Mustang is for sale. They respond that their mustang is for sale, she's only a few years old. You agree to a price and shake hands. Turns out they meant the horse they have in their backyard, a mustang, not the car in their driveway, a Mustang. The contract can be voided because there was no meeting of the minds.

Paperclipped said:
The Gōketsu clan, led by Jiraiya, agreed to the contract with the understanding that it would last until ended by mutual consent. There was no fixed termination date. Hazō broke that contract.
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I understand this is what the QMs were thinking, but is there anything that actually indicates this in story/plans? From that interpretation, assuming the Pangolins eventually had peace, we could force them to keep giving us gold every single month in perpetuity in exchange for seals they didn't need or want but couldn't unilaterally stop the deal because then Pantsaa would be an Oathbreaker if we didn't choose to allow them to renegotiate?

If there are no actual in-story indicators that he actually thought the way the QMs thought he thought then I don't think that's very fair to make that an entire aspect of his reputation in a way we could not deal with, mitigate, or anticipate.

Especially given how Hazoupilot said this:

Velorien said:
"No," Hazō said bluntly. "It's not a unilateral termination anyway. They get advance warning and a month's shipment. That's how you're supposed to act when ending an agreement in good faith. Have you spoken to them already?"
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This seems to mean there are three possible interpretations.

1) Hazou was lying to himself and Kei and really knew and understood he was breaking the deal in an inappropriate manner.
2) The Human Path and 7th Path have different expectations about deals and this was just a cultural misunderstanding.
3) Both Paths have similar understandings and the Pangolins are just upset because they feel taken advantage of in that they got the short end of that deal with how it ended and have been pushing a false narrative about Hazou being an Oathbreaker to make themselves feel better/portray their sudden comparable military weakness as being due to treachery.

Both 2 and 3 seem much more plausible than 1, so I don't understand why Hazou now just fully agrees with 1.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
The deal was not made in good faith.
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Well Jiraiya thought otherwise:

eaglejarl said:
More importantly, the diamonds are a signal; Pantsā could easily have given us lower quality stones, but he didn't. He intends to play fair on the deal and is actually going a little out of his way to make it good for us. You'll have serious combat power, plus you should be able to find specialists who can plug holes in the team's skillsets. From what you told me about Akane, that conditioning jutsu is badass. I won't object at all to having it myself, and it will be a major edge for you kids.
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The reason why contracts are so valuable is because they basically agree that we can someone them whenever the Summoner wants. The 7th Path people are still people, sogetting summoned in the middle of you nap time into some fucked up combat isn't a fun idea. We got reminded of that fact once or twice, even by Cannai.

And I don't think we have to convince the Rat's so much, they seem willing enough to listen to reason. Trying to understand the situation at the Conclave and their actual ability to influence it would probably be more important.

Just because they are well respected doesn't mean that they can magically convince all the other clans to join whatever Anti-Dragon measurements they decide on.

We just pissed of the Pangolin who are also allied to the Mara, who aren't useless randos either:
Paperclipped said:
Mara -- Allied with Pangolins, will probably oppose you if the Pangolins ask but they're generally not eager to make enemies.
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Sir Stompy said:
Conjura should have been able to smoke the entire Pangolin invasion by herself and it's frankly bizarre that she didn't.
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Hostages:

Velorien said:
They hold entire settlements hostage, and at the first sign of my coming, they slaughter my children without remorse.
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Cariyaga said:
That doesn't explain the start of the invasion.
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Velorien said:
The Pangolins came at night. Their night vision is no better than ours, indeed worse, but they needed only navigate by scent. When we awakened, the guard trees had been toppled and only broken corpses lay on the ground, while not one pangolin had a scratch on their scales. Now, they could see and prey safely from afar, usurping the privileges given to us by the Conductor herself. My children, in turn, were helpless against their rampage.

They are not indestructible, these invisible towers that steal our mastery of the skies. The shields they use against bombardment are unseen domes of thickened air—as if such a thing could be concealed from us who know air best of all—and after we discovered that the towers, though seemingly floating unmoored, grew steadily easier to destroy with my space-time arts the more the ground beneath them was obliterated, our stalwart summoner and her human allies eventually deduced the trick. But even then, finding and destroying a small object buried by a Pangolin is a fool's errand, and in any case, it was far, far too late.

With the ninjutsu I have honed over the centuries, it is not beyond me to destroy the towers even at their strongest, nor to move between them faster than the speed of light. But both cost an amount of chakra commensurate with stretching the underlying laws of reality to their limits, and the cruel cunning of the Pangolins knows no bounds. They hold entire settlements hostage, and at the first sign of my coming, they slaughter my children without remorse. That is why all I can do is lead the Wings of Liberty to strike at the edges of their power, and seek to give my subjugated children the strength of heart to turn against their captors from within. It tears at my heart that I cannot do more.
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It was a suprise attack, Conjura's space-time jutsu isn't cheap to use and then it was seemingly too late. And Conjura probably didn't show up immediately to fight.

Realisticly there should still be elite fighters in every clan who togehter are a threat or at least a real hindrance to a Boss, something along the lines of the Toad Sages.
 
ContextBot said:
Hostages:
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Sir Stompy on Discord said:
I'm also very unsatisfied with the hostage argument. It is extremely stupid to give in if your enemies take hostages. It just encourages them to take more. I can't imagine a being centuries old to have failed to grasp this.

Refuse to budge an inch, dare them to do their worst, and you'll lose less in the end, since if there's no point to taking hostages, your enemies won't do it.

It's not like [Conjura is] an elected leader and vulnerable to popular opinion. That's the only reason any modern gov'ts give a shit about hostages. Even when it is very clearly not in their interests to do so
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Sir Stompy said:
Ahhh yes the great Dick Debate. I think we should go all in on the size of the Jiraiya statue, but let's just not make a public statement about Jiraiya's cock.

It's a great meme, but we're trying to be respected in Leaf and it's not worth the "WTF are those crazy Goketsu thinking" reactions IMO.
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We can just say that Jiraiya once joked that any statues we erect for him 'better have his best feature' or something.
 
Shane_357 said:
We can just say that Jiraiya once joked that any statues we erect for him 'better have his best feature' or something.
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Are we trying to get away without embarrassing ourselves or actually make a positive impression?

Yes, we won't literally die if we do this. Is it worth it for the memes? No, just clothe the damn statue. If y'all just. Cannot. Go. Without. we can do a second statue in an out of the way garden.
Velorien said:
If in an out-of-the-way place of the compound? Probably fine. If it's straddling the main gate facing the heart of Leaf as originally planned? Likely tasteless
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