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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • A thank you from RT for coming with then this far:

    Very nice transitions and I think a split second of Ruby at the end that's new.
     
    one thing I hope we see at some point, but doubt will happen, is for Ruby to turn into a Silver Bullet.

    We know Ruby can be fast and even drill zip past things with her semblance
    and we know her eyes are Silver and act like Silver tends to do in stories
    so let's say Ruby let's loose that Silver light as she charges ahead with every ounce of speed her semblance can provide as she dives right at Salem.

    I mean, imagine Salem has taken on a Grimm Kaiju form, but after a big blast they can see Salem's body, her human body, within the mess, so Ruby (with backup from the rest of the squad) goes Silver Bullet and manages to tackle Salem's body out of the grimm goo and ending the fight while protecting a life.
     
    It's also very obvious that the show is going to end with the Gods being summoned and Ruby showing them that humanity is united with a heartfelt speech.
     
    well either that or she kills them both and then 80's metal plays the end
     
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    VolantRedX said:
    It's also very obvious that the show is going to end with the Gods being summoned and Ruby showing them that humanity is united with a heartfelt speech.
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    Jcogginsa said:
    I think it's equally likely that they get summoned before Humanity gets united, and Ruby's speech convinces them to leave humanity alone forever
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    See you 2 get it!
    It is clear we will have a Talk No Jutsu finish with Ruby leading the way.
    The REAL question I think is how much will Oscar and the rest of the 2 teams contribute to the speech.
     
    There's a lot I'd like to say but I'mma just fall back on what was already highlighted earlier.

    Some people think gods can't be judged and their actions are beyond the ken of the characters to take issue with.

    Meanwhile other viewers view them as characters who very much can be judged and don't see their actions as inscrutable.

    That divide shall likely never be crossed because its rooted in an inherent difference philosophical and ideological understandings of the world and thus we draw entirely different conclusions based on the same scenes.

    For instance, I am sure the former might say the gods going to live among the people again "If they prove their worth/unity" is a sign they'll live among the people as equals, meanwhile those in my camp view it as best a return to the status quo from the gods perspective where-in they wield total power and are prayed to and worshipped.

    Same statement, different conclusions, thus actively debating the topic is a waste of time.

    The idea of discussing the themes and how they relate to how the story may end is a nominally separate question but when it comes to the gods still gets all tangled up in the above.

    For instance, yes RWBY is thematically a show about camaraderie, coming together and no singular heroes, ETC.

    But it is also an action series where as we saw with Adam, the idea that someone, even when everything is stacked against them, let alone when not, can be disinclined to listen and thus must be stopped with force.

    Hence why I am ambivalent about the "Talk No Jutsu" conclusion, even when ignoring my stance on the gods & challenging/fighting their actions, RWBY's stances on power & trying to talk people with it out of using it, ETC.

    I don't think anything is a forgone conclusion to say the least.
     
    Well given the evidence on hand, Talk No Jutsu is ALL Ruby and friends can really use to make sure the gods don't destroy humanity. We have been given the means to summon them (bringing the relics together), but no way to stop destruction outside of achieving the goal OR using words to lead them to change their minds. We have seen Ruby and Oscar try to verbally convince people to stand down/change their minds. Not much success on that front so far, but given how often it has happened it is a very safe bet they would do the same with the gods.
     
    Pugman said:
    Well given the evidence on hand, Talk No Jutsu is ALL Ruby and friends can really use to make sure the gods don't destroy humanity. We have been given the means to summon them (bringing the relics together), but no way to stop destruction outside of achieving the goal OR using words to lead them to change their minds. We have seen Ruby and Oscar try to verbally convince people to stand down/change their minds. Not much success on that front so far, but given how often it has happened it is a very safe bet they would do the same with the gods.
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    And as noted, we saw it also tried with Adam and it ended with him ignoring them and getting shanked, dropped off a cliff, breaking his neck and skull before presumably freezing and drowning in the waters if he somehow still lived.

    Like I established,
    Zam said:
    yes RWBY is thematically a show about camaraderie, coming together and no singular heroes, ETC.

    But it is also an action series where as we saw with Adam, the idea that someone, even when everything is stacked against them, let alone when not, can be disinclined to listen and thus must be stopped with force.

    Hence why I am ambivalent about the "Talk No Jutsu" conclusion, even when ignoring my stance on the gods & challenging/fighting their actions, RWBY's stances on power & trying to talk people with it out of using it, ETC.

    I don't think anything is a forgone conclusion to say the least.
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    Zam said:
    And as noted, we saw it also tried with Adam and it ended with him ignoring them and getting shanked, dropped off a cliff, breaking his neck and skull before presumably freezing and drowning in the waters if he somehow still lived.

    Like I established,
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    Then tell me, with all the info we have so far, how can Ruby and friends fight and beat back the gods?
     
    Zam said:
    Then tell me, with all the info we have so far, what can Ruby and co say to convince the gods not to kill everyone, or convince Ironwood to stand down, or Salem, or Cinder, or Adam back in V6?
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    Through example, as shown when Ruby was able to change Cordovin's mind.
    Look, we have been shown that you can't physically fight the GodBros, however we have and are going to have examples of how words effect people. Ruby tried to talk and convince Cordorvin, but Cordo did not know her and had no reason to believe her words. That changed when Ruby and friends, who could of flown away, fly right back to Argus to deal with the Leviathan. The soldiers said they would not help her, and Ruby chose to go in anyway. Ruby stood to gain nothing, but she did her duty to the people by going in anyway, and that convinced Cordo to change her mind and give Ruby a chance.
    We saw The Bees take a chance to try talking to Robyn instead of fighting her and bringing her in, and in turn Robyn took the risk of taking Blake's hand while alone in an alley with them for a semblance check. They both took a risk to talk.
    And most recently Ruby has taken a big gamble with the entire world at stake by sending out her message and laying bare the secrets she knows that Ozpin had kept secret from the world. Ruby is putting her trust and faith in the rest of humanity to either come and help, or at the very least to prepare themselves for the war to come. In time we will see how people across the world chose to respond.

    So yes, Raven, Ironwood, Salem, Cinder, and Adam have not been talked down, but they are people who are set in their ways (fear, anger, spite, lashing out at and blaming everyone else) and wrapped up in their own heads, and only one of them has died because of it so far. Meanwhile we have seen the Gods be capable of and having at least some understanding of reason. Light has shown to be willing to hear people out, both when Salem first arrived at his domain and later when an army marches on it. Dark has also been able to show reason and the ability to change his mind when Light pointed out how Salem tricked him.

    So, I have now given you my evidence of how the show is leading to a talk no jutsu finish with the gods instead of a fight.
    So again I ask you, what evidence do we have that the girls will physically try to fight the gods (when they have born witness already to what they did last time someone tried to hit them)? What evidence do we have that points to an ending where Ruby and friends are able to physically beat back the Gods?
     
    Pugman said:
    Through example, as shown when Ruby was able to change Cordovin's mind.
    Look, we have been shown that you can't physically fight the GodBros, however we have and are going to have examples of how words effect people. Ruby tried to talk and convince Cordorvin, but Cordo did not know her and had no reason to believe her words. That changed when Ruby and friends, who could of flown away, fly right back to Argus to deal with the Leviathan. The soldiers said they would not help her, and Ruby chose to go in anyway. Ruby stood to gain nothing, but she did her duty to the people by going in anyway, and that convinced Cordo to change her mind and give Ruby a chance.
    We saw The Bees take a chance to try talking to Robyn instead of fighting her and bringing her in, and in turn Robyn took the risk of taking Blake's hand while alone in an alley with them for a semblance check. They both took a risk to talk.
    And most recently Ruby has taken a big gamble with the entire world at stake by sending out her message and laying bare the secrets she knows that Ozpin had kept secret from the world. Ruby is putting her trust and faith in the rest of humanity to either come and help, or at the very least to prepare themselves for the war to come. In time we will see how people across the world chose to respond.

    So yes, Raven, Ironwood, Salem, Cinder, and Adam have not been talked down, but they are people who are set in their ways (fear, anger, spite, lashing out at and blaming everyone else) and wrapped up in their own heads, and only one of them has died because of it so far. Meanwhile we have seen the Gods be capable of and having at least some understanding of reason. Light has shown to be willing to hear people out, both when Salem first arrived at his domain and later when an army marches on it. Dark has also been able to show reason and the ability to change his mind when Light pointed out how Salem tricked him.

    So, I have now given you my evidence of how the show is leading to a talk no jutsu finish with the gods instead of a fight.
    So again I ask you, what evidence do we have that the girls will physically try to fight the gods (when they have born witness already to what they did last time someone tried to hit them)? What evidence do we have that points to an ending where Ruby and friends are able to physically beat back the Gods?
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    I'm going to gloss over the fact that I disagree with your interpretation on Light and Darkness's personalities cos that falls right back into the whole "We view gods inherently differently, and as a result you view them more positively than I do" thing again and as established there's no point in talking about that. Same for the mortal characters who you claim haven't adapted or changed their minds, as I disagree on that too, them not signing on with the main cast isn't the same as them incapable of changing their minds or being bereft in regards to understanding of reason

    As to your point on Cordoven I would note that, that situation required there to be a third party involved that served as a unifying factor, if RWBY and co hadn't fought the Leviathan, Cordoven would have sent people after them. I say this because context matters, it took something humbling, terrifying and dangerous to Cordoven and the city she was meant to protect appearing and the cast fighting it, for her to see them in a new light. Or in other words, based on your own view of the gods, not a situation that can actually come about.

    So suffice to say, I return to my original point which was:
    Zam said:
    I am ambivalent about the "Talk No Jutsu" conclusion, even when ignoring my stance on the gods & challenging/fighting their actions, RWBY's stances on power & trying to talk people with it out of using it, ETC.

    I don't think anything is a forgone conclusion to say the least.
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    Now, I could give some rationale's on how I think fighting the gods is theoretically possible, but they'd all be heavy on conjecture you'd see as invalid, which is fine as I am comfortable admitting I don't know how the series will end or what new information will be revealed in the future that may cause me to adjust my understanding of the world & its characters.

    But the thing is I wasn't arguing "X will happen" I was arguing "I find it doubtful Y will happen" and I'm not obligated by any arcane rules of debate to create a perfectly articulated and detailed plan for an end of the series simply cos I outlined why I found a claim to be far from confirmed.

    Not being willing to beat my head against that particular wall doesn't actually invalidate anything I said either. A person can highlight 'becos' is not the write spelling for the word 'because' if they know the word doesn't have an 'o' in it, even if they don't happen to know how to spell it themselves. Similarly I can say "I am doubtful X thign may happen" without needing to provide my own outline on what will happen.

    Anyway, there was no reason to turn this into a big event or debate, all I said was that I am ambivalent on statements like this:
    Pugman said:
    It is clear we will have a Talk No Jutsu finish with Ruby leading the way.
    The REAL question I think is how much will Oscar and the rest of the 2 teams contribute to the speech.
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    And don't view the series ending as a forgone conclusion to say the least, nothing more, nothing less.
     
    Zam said:
    And as noted, we saw it also tried with Adam and it ended with him ignoring them and getting shanked, dropped off a cliff, breaking his neck and skull before presumably freezing and drowning in the waters if he somehow still lived.

    Like I established,
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    The thing is the Gods aren't being portrayed as people to fight but forces of nature that must be appeased. We saw what happened when someone thought they could out smart the Gods and the what happened when they were attacked. The only option we didn't se was attempting to reason with them.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    The thing is the Gods aren't being portrayed as people to fight but forces of nature that must be appeased. We saw what happened when someone thought they could out smart the Gods and the what happened when they were attacked. The only option we didn't se was attempting to reason with them.
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    ... I've already noted, multiple times, that our views on the gods and what we think the show is trying to convey are different. You telling me you think the show says the gods can only be appeased isn't going to convince me, and if I provide actual counter points, it will just start that nightmare debate again which never goes anywhere. This is why I tried to remove my view on the gods from my "I don't think anything is a forgone conclusion to say the least" posts.
     
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