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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • In regards to this image...
    Anyone think there is any deeper meaning to the placement of the hole, or am I overanalyzing?
     
    Poetic cinema

    link


    Cuz, yeah. Oscar wasn't just being pragmatic this episode, he was making a statement that not coincidentally happened to be the exact opposite of Rhode's: That it's never too late to stop running, never too late to change. Not so long as you're alive at least.



    Incidentally:

    link

    Also some of my own thoughts on why the flashback made Cinder seem much more likely to get a redemption arc:

    Between the fight with the bullies, tossing the brush, stealing a sword to kill her abusers with, powering through shocks of lightning to snap the Madame's neck and even killer her father figure when he turned on her I think that one thing this flashback established very strongly was that whatever else she is Cinder is someone who will always bite back when she's kicked.​
    ​
    Salem knows when to change the stick to the carrot to not let resentment fester too much but the parallels between the Grimm arm and the shock collar were vivid in a way that is making me suspect that Cinder might start seeing what is really going on here.​
    ​
    I'm not sure she will become an outright hero but I could see her becoming a wild card that is neither part of Salem nor Ozma's factions.​
    ​
    Also a crucial reveal of her backstory is that Salem had nothing to do with her Cinderella background at all. She's part of a new sort of Cinderella story but she does not appear to have had any influence of Cinder in her formative years, so while she may be capable of manipulating her due to being a master at manipulation she does not know everything there is to know about Cinder, she has not known her since childhood as we suspected. So she may end up making a crucial error of judgement in how she attempts to control Cinder at some point.​


    tl: dr:
    Cinder might just be a tool to be used at the moment, but history has shown that time and time again she will always fight to break free. Salem is successfully managing to stave of her rebellious tendencies for now, but for how long can she keep doing that?




    edit:
    Moar themes for the theme throne!

    link
     
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    I admit I'm conflicted about the prospect of a redemption arc for Cinder: on one hand, it's clear that she's the product of a really fucked system and that had people really helped her instead of trying to do it in a way that would preserve the status quo she wouldn't had turned out the way she is; but on the other hand by now she has already dived deep in the abyss of villainy, casually murdering her way through Salem's plans, culminating on the murder of Amber, Pyrrha and the Fall of Beacon and all the innocent people that died during it, all the while she was clearly having the time of her life.

    What I want to say is that if they go through that route, the authors will need to be very careful on not giving her an easy pardon for everything she did.

    Assuming that she doesn't simply turn on Cinder and make her own path, like Raven did. (and even then that would feel wrong for her to just get away after everything she did)
     
    Gladsome said:
    Imagine thinking that Ironwood is being presented in an ableist manner, when the whole point of his descent into villainy is not his inhumanity but his very human emotional panic driving him to sacrifice too much.

    Some people who watch this show really manage to miss the point entirely of what the show presents. Nothing about this show has presented disabled people in a bad light because of their disability.

    Not directed at anyone here, just venting at parts of the fandom.
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    The author of Kill Six Billion Demons has an old tweet that seems relevant:

     
    ElMariachi said:
    I admit I'm conflicted about the prospect of a redemption arc for Cinder: on one hand, it's clear that she's the product of a really fucked system and that had people really helped her instead of trying to do it in a way that would preserve the status quo she wouldn't had turned out the way she is; but on the other hand by now she has already dived deep in the abyss of villainy, casually murdering her way through Salem's plans, culminating on the murder of Amber, Pyrrha and the Fall of Beacon and all the innocent people that died during it, all the while she was clearly having the time of her life.

    What I want to say is that if they go through that route, the authors will need to be very careful on not giving her an easy pardon for everything she did.

    Assuming that she doesn't simply turn on Cinder and make her own path, like Raven did. (and even then that would feel wrong for her to just get away after everything she did)
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    Yeah...
    Honestly while a sad backstory makes her more understandable, as that one guy once said

    the Moral Event Horizon is a thing for a reason...
     
    So
    Cinder - Catra
    Emerald - Scorpia
    Neo - Lonnie (And the Horde Trio)?

    So since Oscar
    is going to be working on using charisma checks to get people to leave Team Salem.....what if we take that to it's plausible conclusion and have the end game be the simple farm boy flex his words to get the GodBros to not snap humanity and take at least some responsibility for the whole mess?
     
    I do agree with some parts but have to disagree on others.
    Zam said:
    Anyway on a comparison I've seen brought up:
    undefined
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    Mostly the Cinder parts.
    From what I gathered from the supplementary material the dc comic. Adam was already part of a radical group in the WF during Ghira time along with Illia. In fact both him and Illia where the only survivors in the a failed raid. This part is kinda iffy but in the moon slice amity card it talk of him finding a home in the WF. Since that talks about him recently joining WF and being I guess happy and the comic shows him and Illia being the two survivors doesn't paint a good picture.

    Reason why iffy since in Hazel card it that Ozpin immortal. But then how does an Atlas dev know of that secret.

    As for the support network yeah I agree with that he had one but from what I saw it was an enabling one where his destructive traits where praised and rewarded due to it being useful. In the end it was Adam choices but some fault does lay on Sienna for her enabling behavior and giving him authority in the WF despite knowing of his violent tendency.
     
    An interesting observation:
    is the only character whose backstory is seemingly completely unknown in-universe.


    link



    Also god but the hindsight train keeps hitting doesn't it? In volume 5 Raven mocked Cinder for the name Cinder FALL being too appropriate to be her real name and at the time we just thought it was an ego thing and it was used as another reason to dislike Cinder. Now however? Yeah maybe it was a ego thing, more likely a "Madame Salem feeding delusions to make her pliable" thing, but most of all it was a "I can't use my birth name because I murdered my entire so-called family and even if I wasn't an outlaw those scumbags were never a real family to me".
     
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    Mook said:
    An interesting observation:
    is the only character whose backstory is seemingly completely unknown in-universe.


    link



    Also god but the hindsight train keeps hitting doesn't it? In volume 5 Raven mocked Cinder for the name Cinder FALL being too appropriate to be her real name and at the time we just thought it was an ego thing and it was used as another reason to dislike Cinder. Now however? Yeah maybe it was a ego thing, more likely a "Madame Salem feeding delusions to make her pliable" thing, but most of all it was a "I can't use my birth name because I murdered my entire so-called family and even if I wasn't an outlaw those scumbags were never a real family to me".
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    And will probably have a reason to it in the future.
    And I can't wait.
     
    Mook said:
    An interesting observation:
    is the only character whose backstory is seemingly completely unknown in-universe.


    link



    Also god but the hindsight train keeps hitting doesn't it? In volume 5 Raven mocked Cinder for the name Cinder FALL being too appropriate to be her real name and at the time we just thought it was an ego thing and it was used as another reason to dislike Cinder. Now however? Yeah maybe it was a ego thing, more likely a "Madame Salem feeding delusions to make her pliable" thing, but most of all it was a "I can't use my birth name because I murdered my entire so-called family and even if I wasn't an outlaw those scumbags were never a real family to me".
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    Huh. Interesting.
    Even Beginning of the End was all interactions Cinder had with other people who are regular parts of the cast (Emerald, Mercury, Salem, Adam, Roman)
     
    Jcogginsa said:
    On the topic of Ironwood's prosthetics, I saw someone point out that Ironwood steadily losing more of his body to mechanics is reminiscent of stories where cybernetic enhancements resulting in loss of humanity, which given Ironwood's character might be something he actively wants. Throwing away humanity for more reliable technology. But because the show also frames Penny as a real person despite being completely mechanical, Ironwood isn't throwing away his humanity at all. He's simply refusing to acknowledge that he is human.
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    Exactly, all of this, 100% Him refusing to take time to heal (Or allow it for Winter) and treating their bodies like things to be repaired or upgraded as quickly as possible, his thoughts that Salem's strength comes from her lack of humanity (When actually her humanity is what makes her a threat because she 'gets' people) and trying to pretend he lacks emotions, its all him desperately ignoring his humanity but he's lost none of it.
    ElMariachi said:
    I love how Salem is described as someone super old that mastered the ways of manipulation like no one else, and is actually living up to the hype like someone that met dozens of people like Cinder in her extremely long life should be. There are too many works of fiction where someone is supposed to be a master manipulator yet their "schemes" only work because the people against them have the thinking capability of a dead walrus.
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    Excellent summary there & totally agreed, Salem's striking a great balance to me as a villain with clear skill and tons of experience at this without it shifting over into that kind of "I have manipulated you before you even knew it!" kinda thing. I have a whole backlog of posts on her I need to share at some point XD



    jwolfe_beta said:
    Some neat parallels to Cinder's speech and the latest episode.
    undefined
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    Really drives home what they said about this having been in the plans from early days, oof, that hit hard!

    Mook said:
    Spoiler: HAIR!
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    Speaking of hair:

    Mook said:
    Poetic cinema
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    So 'much' was established and laid out as possible avenues this episode, just, wow.
    MonochromeXClown said:
    I do agree with some parts but have to disagree on others.

    Mostly the Cinder parts.
    From what I gathered from the supplementary material the dc comic. Adam was already part of a radical group in the WF during Ghira time along with Illia. In fact both him and Illia where the only survivors in the a failed raid. This part is kinda iffy but in the moon slice amity card it talk of him finding a home in the WF. Since that talks about him recently joining WF and being I guess happy and the comic shows him and Illia being the two survivors doesn't paint a good picture.

    Reason why iffy since in Hazel card it that Ozpin immortal. But then how does an Atlas dev know of that secret.

    As for the support network yeah I agree with that he had one but from what I saw it was an enabling one where his destructive traits where praised and rewarded due to it being useful. In the end it was Adam choices but some fault does lay on Sienna for her enabling behavior and giving him authority in the WF despite knowing of his violent tendency.
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    Given when that seemed to be set it sounded like this was during a transition from Ghira to Sienna's leadership and as noted Adam was off committing crimes before that was a thing and with no one encouraging him to do so.

    As noted Sienna didn't know his violent tendencies, she's not going to be watching his face to see him be gleeful during a battle when she's dealing with other stuff and he's not facing her & we saw clearly him couch his actions in love for the Faunus and actively restrain himself from killing needlessly around her.

    Adam was part of Ghira's White Fang before he was Sienna's but he was already a piece of shit and the stuff he did to Blake and his kin wasn't going to be encouraged by the culture Sienna cultivated anyway, that's kind of my whole point here. Also again Adam was an adult by this stage.
     
    Pugman said:
    So with the events of episode 6 in mind, how do we think 7 is going to up the ante for a hiatus cliffhanger?
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    At this point I legitimately have no idea, this volume has surprised me at basically every episode and any predictions on timeline or events have been thrown totally out of whack, I am adrift, and intrigued XD

    Also on 'that scene'
    As there was no sign of a struggle or even attempts to escape, and that fifteen minutes passed between them finding out about the sword & Rhode's arriving to see Madame get it...

    I think Cinder must have tried to avoid them, hide the sword, skulk around, hold onto it when they shocked her & tried to take it by force before finally lashing out.

    Cos based on the timing, the bodies & the like, she certainly didn't spend time hunting them down. The lack of blood makes it clear this wasn't a case of "Oh you found out, well swish, swish stab! :)"

    Whatever happened it happened quickly, likely without much intent regarding the twins or in a single strike once she was backed into a corner, leaving Cinder to focus on her stepmom.
     
    Zam said:
    At this point I legitimately have no idea, this volume has surprised me at basically every episode and any predictions on timeline or events have been thrown totally out of whack, I am adrift, and intrigued XD

    Also on 'that scene'
    As there was no sign of a struggle or even attempts to escape, and that fifteen minutes passed between them finding out about the sword & Rhode's arriving to see Madame get it...

    I think Cinder must have tried to avoid them, hide the sword, skulk around, hold onto it when they shocked her & tried to take it by force before finally lashing out.

    Cos based on the timing, the bodies & the like, she certainly didn't spend time hunting them down. The lack of blood makes it clear this wasn't a case of "Oh you found out, well swish, swish stab! :)"

    Whatever happened it happened quickly, likely without much intent regarding the twins or in a single strike once she was backed into a corner, leaving Cinder to focus on her stepmom.
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    My guess is
    that they cornered her, lots of yelling, shocking, then hands were thrown, Sisters tried to take the sword, then Cinder snaps and using her honed skills and semblance swiftly and bloodlessly to kill them and reclaims the sword. Just before Rhodes enters is when Madam and Cinder start to grapple, and the crash that alerts him is right before Cinder finally gets her hands on her abuser.

    EDWS








     
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