RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Pugman]

Oz - "Like how I sat idly by and let the villains take up more and more advantages until it was too late for me to do anything or when I put lives in active danger because I didn't think the Relic being a lure for Grimm was something worth telling."

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1 - it's not like he was twiddling his thumbs. There is a difference between being cautious and being a doormat, something you and Ironwood don't seem to understand.
2 - again the attraction is "faint" and it's not like he could of predicted that there would be a group of manticores lead by a sphinx passing by the tracks at that time.

He's going to be even worse, in Ironwoods mind. He's going to be understanding.

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ya, basically this.

 

[Leingod]

Some neat Oscar meta cos he needs more love:

Spoiler

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By the by, fun historical trivia: King Oscar I of Sweden and Norway (1799-1859) and his son, Oscar II (1829-1907) were named specifically after this Oscar. Oscar I was named such at the suggestion of his godfather, Napoleon Bonaparte, who was a big fanboy of the "Ossian Cycle" in which Oscar's life and deeds were recounted. Further, it was because of Oscar becoming a "royal name" that the name became widespread in Europe and especially in Scandinavia.

The Ossian Cycle itself was published by Scottish poet James Mcpherson c. 1760, which he claimed was not written by him but was instead a collection of word-of-mouth material in Scottish Gaelic, said to be from ancient sources, that he wrote down and translated. Debate on the authenticity of these claims started pretty much as soon as they were published and the matter isn't really settled to this day, but currently the general scholarly consensus seems to be that he really did collect and transcribe a lot of genuine Scottish Gaelic ballads from both word-of-mouth and old manuscripts, but had adapted them by altering a lot of the characters and ideas and introduced a lot of his own material, likely to make it all work better as one epic story. Regardless of its authenticity, it was wildly popular and influential among literary and artistic circles in Europe well into the 19th century.

 

[Pugman]

more rwby music




wonder how amazing the music of V8 will be.

 

[LordDarthYoda]

I kind of want a battle remix of Divide. I know I've seen someone on YT do a version like that.

 

[Pugman]

I kind of want a battle remix of Divide. I know I've seen someone on YT do a version like that.

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you mean this?

 

[LordDarthYoda]

you mean this?

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Yep that's the one.

 

[Zam]

So Ironwood is certainly fairly charismatic and amicable enough with his staff that he'd engender a lot of personal loyalty, but personal fondness or loyalty alone won't generally cause someone to be an obedient enabler, condemn a whole city to die or arrest people for being related to whistleblowers.

The problems with Atlas go deeper than Ironwood, he's the major symptom, but he's not the source. The real issue is that Atlas is a doggedly hierarchal culture where loyalty is viewed as obedience and superior officers are more important than the people. Kill a young Ironwood and some other general, maybe a bit less amicable or a touch more awkward and you'd still likely run into the issue of them wielding too much power with your best hope being they didn't become a Headmaster too, but thanks to Specialists... Yeah even that would only count for so much.

So how do you address a problem like Ironwood?

Or more.

Atlas.

Well here's my hot take in point form!

1. The position of Headmaster & general must be de-politicized, military and combat officials have no place being in charge of civilian affairs; they can advise on security matters but they cannot vote.
2. Dissolve the position of general and turn it into its own council, likely an air force, ground force and perhaps mechanical warfare or domestic guard force separate from the main military to make it hard to concentrate power. Also dissolve the Specialist position and recruitment program.
3. End the role of soldiers as police and replace them either with a militia or detective/police force that is self run, totally transparent and under the control of the civilian government. (If you must have cops at least :/)
4. Have the soldiers go through de-programming and empathy training, and consistently send them out to do public service stuff when possible to build trust in the communities but also to make them feel integrated with and not separate from the people they are meant to protect, soldiers shouldn't be a special class.
5. End any and all prison labor programs. If you really want prisoners "Productive" make it optional, ensure they are given training, health coverage and payment for their work.

This isn't perfect, but I think this basic five step outline if properly instituted would at least address a lot of Atlas's toxic culture and other issues.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Dissolve the position of general and turn it into its own council, likely an air force, ground force and perhaps mechanical warfare or domestic guard force separate from the main military to make it hard to concentrate power. Also dissolve the Specialist position and recruitment program.

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I agree with everything but this.

You still need a commander in chief. The entire point is to have a single decisive leader who can quickly respond to immediate threats without needing to vote on a course of action.

But this singular leader needs to answer to the council, who are themselves accountable to the people who vote for them. And having people vote for the commander in Chief is also a good idea.

There's also nothing wrong with having Huntsmen join the military. The problem was having the General and Headmaster be the same person and the academy push all graduates to enlist.

And even that wouldn't have been a terrible problem if Ironwood was a president separate from the council rather than being 2/5s of the council.

 

[Zam]

I agree with everything but this.

You still need a commander in chief. The entire point is to have a single decisive leader who can quickly respond to immediate threats without needing to vote on a course of action.

But this singular leader needs to answer to the council, who are themselves accountable to the people who vote for them. And having people vote for the commander in Chief is also a good idea.

There's also nothing wrong with having Huntsmen join the military. The problem was having the General and Headmaster be the same person and the academy push all graduates to enlist.

And even that wouldn't have been a terrible problem if Ironwood was a president separate from the council rather than being 2/5s of the council.

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That's a fair take, I'm ambivalent myself as I feel a commander in chief position both grants one person too much power and spreads a singular person too thin in terms of focus, skills, ETC.

I'm similarly unsure about voting for the position of commander in chief, not strictly against but not strictly for either as I feel it may lead back into the military wading into politics and campaigning style stuff that'd make it easier for a dictator to seize power through populism.

As to Hunters in the military, I think they can still join, I just don't think they should have an academy to military pipeline or a special position reserved just for them if that makes sense.

 

[Psyga315]

So how do you address a problem like Ironwood?

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Assuming that Headmasters automatically get a seat on the Council, don't make the General the Headmaster. There, simple as that. Now he can't use "MUH TWO SEATS" to rig everything.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Huntsmen in the military would essentially be like the United States Marine Corp. A separate branch that cooperates with the rest.

I'm told that the Marines are one of the oldest military branches of America. Before combined-arms, multi-dimensional strategies, they were tasked with operating alone and without support while hunting pirates.

 

[Zam]

Assuming that Headmasters automatically get a seat on the Council, don't make the General the Headmaster. There, simple as that. Now he can't use "MUH TWO SEATS" to rig everything.

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Given it doesn't seem like the other headmasters are on the council I am unsure that's the norm either, but while that would have helped, that would only deal with a portion of the power imbalance and general toxicity of Atlas's culture I feel.

Huntsmen in the military would essentially be like the United States Marine Corp. A separate branch that cooperates with the rest.

I'm told that the Marines are one of the oldest military branches of America. Before combined-arms, multi-dimensional strategies, they were tasked with operating alone and without support while hunting pirates.

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I have seen that comparison made before, noting that Beacon teams are like marines, while Atlas teams are like soldiers, which is why the latter always lose to Beacon teams. I'd probably still want separation between the super soldiers and regular soldiers in terms of command structure myself.

 

[daedalus725]

Makes me wonder how much worse the situation is in Mistral. We didn't get to see much of Mistral itself, but we know its where Sienna Khan felt the need to have her headquarters.

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See I don't think that has too do with mistral being worse than atlas. I think it has to do with the same reason raven was buming around it's easier/safer.

 

[Zam]

See I don't think that has too do with mistral being worse than atlas. I think it has to do with the same reason raven was buming around it's easier/safer.

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To be fair, operating in a tundra that can kill you in a couple of hours is a lot harder than mountainous wild lands, so it makes strategic sense from Sienna's perspective and I doubt there's many villages for Raven to raid on Solitas either.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

See I don't think that has too do with mistral being worse than atlas. I think it has to do with the same reason raven was buming around it's easier/safer.

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The extra materials talk about how Mistral is worse.

Velvet hated Yatsuhashi on sight because he was obviously from Mistral, and she absolutely refused to consider transferring to Haven. She didn't like being in Atlas, but that kingdom doesn't trigger her like the mere thought of Mistral.

The companion book also mentions that class and racial division is the worst in Mistral.

 

[daedalus725]

The extra materials talk about how Mistral is worse.

Velvet hated Yatsuhashi on sight because he was obviously from Mistral, and she absolutely refused to consider transferring to Haven. She didn't like being in Atlas, but that kingdom doesn't trigger her like the mere thought of Mistral.

The companion book also mentions that class and racial division is the worst in Mistral.

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Ah you see I haven't read those books and also have hated most of what they added

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Mistral is the former empire that practiced wide-spread slavery and cultural destruction, and is more then likely the nation that owned Menagerie before gifting it to the faunus to get rid of them.

Mantle might not have even had a faunus population until they started immigrating in pursuit of jobs.

Why does it make sense that Atlas is more racist than Mistral?

 

[Psyga315]

Why does it make sense that Atlas is more racist than Mistral?

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Because the racism is a lot more visible in Atlas than it is in Mistral.

For as much as you bring up the extra material, that's all it's ever going to be: extra. Not everyone will dive deep into the books or watch people play Dungeons and Dragons with a RWBY skin and will just watch the show, either believing that it's the only thing that matters or not even being made aware of the extra material.

And so, when most people are watching the show, they pick up on the details about how Atlas is very racist, or at the very least the relations with Faunus being extremely strained. Meanwhile with Mistral we get...

A paper.

On a wall.

In a far away corner that requires a close look.

And that's it.

As a result with this rule of perception, most people conclude that Atlas is more racist than Mistral despite the lore saying otherwise.

Speaking of racism, Unicorn of War came out with a video on the White Fang. Two minutes in, I like it, since it brings up how UoW was disappointed in how Volume 7 never touched up upon the White Fang plot line and him bringing up how RWBY was popular enough for them to just expand the Volume was just golden.

 

[VolantRedX]

Because the racism is a lot more visible in Atlas than it is in Mistral.

For as much as you bring up the extra material, that's all it's ever going to be: extra. Not everyone will dive deep into the books or watch people play Dungeons and Dragons with a RWBY skin and will just watch the show, either believing that it's the only thing that matters or not even being made aware of the extra material.

And so, when most people are watching the show, they pick up on the details about how Atlas is very racist, or at the very least the relations with Faunus being extremely strained. Meanwhile with Mistral we get...

A paper.

On a wall.

In a far away corner that requires a close look.

And that's it.

As a result with this rule of perception, most people conclude that Atlas is more racist than Mistral despite the lore saying otherwise.

Speaking of racism, Unicorn of War came out with a video on the White Fang. Two minutes in, I like it, since it brings up how UoW was disappointed in how Volume 7 never touched up upon the White Fang plot line and him bringing up how RWBY was popular enough for them to just expand the Volume was just golden.

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They had a good point up until they tried to argue that Adam shouldn't have been a monster because "he stood up for his race". Totally missing the point of his character. He's a violent criminal who uses the ideals of equality to paint his actions in a noble light. Like that is his whole character from the start. For all his talk about standing against humans, he sides readily with human racists in order to both survive and to kill other humans for his jollies. The idea that he doesn't have nuance because he's a violent monster misses the nuance he actually does have. His story isn't about a man with a noble ideal twisted against himself, but as a violent dickweed who latched on to a sense of power and prestige he gained from killing people. Adam is a bad guy not because he was some resistance member who went too far but because he's a bad person who cloaked his actions in nobility in order to get away with it.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that the racism is usually dealt with through the lens of Blake "passing" and struggling to find pride in her identity vs avoiding trouble given that much of her story was likely writing by Miles Luna, a Hispanic man who passes for white. That's likely the issues he's most comfortable dealing with because that's what he personally knows. That's the issue he cares about and wishes to deal with.

 

[Pugman]

more music




as for Mistral being more racist, that gives a reason for White Fang HQ to be in the Anima region. what better place to put your seat of power right in the territory of the humans who hate you, right under their nose.

also it's not that it racism isn't there, it's that we aren't as hit over the head with it as some nit picky people would of liked.
Could the whole thing of been done better, yes and that is something no one disputes. But at the end of the day the hints are there in the show proper but given it is not the main plot of the show it is not and never was going to be front and center. If the series was more focused on race relations rather than fights scenes, communication, and humanity as a whole then maybe more effort would of been placed on the White Fang. Maybe FaunusRuby would of been a thing or Blake would of been the main protagonist. But that is not the show Monty and friends built and it was never going to be that kind of show, and people will just have to accept that and move on.

 

[Psyga315]

They had a good point up until they tried to argue that Adam shouldn't have been a monster because "he stood up for his race". Totally missing the point of his character. He's a violent criminal who uses the ideals of equality to paint his actions in a noble light. Like that is his whole character from the start. For all his talk about standing against humans, he sides readily with human racists in order to both survive and to kill other humans for his jollies. The idea that he doesn't have nuance because he's a violent monster misses the nuance he actually does have. His story isn't about a man with a noble ideal twisted against himself, but as a violent dickweed who latched on to a sense of power and prestige he gained from killing people. Adam is a bad guy not because he was some resistance member who went too far but because he's a bad person who cloaked his actions in nobility in order to get away with it.

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I mean, given his backstory in Amity Arena implying that he's been subjected to violent discrimination at an early age (possibly since birth) and thus never being allowed to actually have an emotional growth (especially someone who loved him unconditionally), violence is all he ever knew and peace was never an option.

 

[Pugman]

violence is all he ever knew and peace was never an option.

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So he is secretly a GOOSE FAUNUS?! :O

 

[VolantRedX]

I mean, given his backstory in Amity Arena implying that he's been subjected to violent discrimination at an early age (possibly since birth) and thus never being allowed to actually have an emotional growth (especially someone who loved him unconditionally), violence is all he ever knew and peace was never an option.

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You're missing the forest through the trees here. The reason Adam is a monstrous person isn't that he hates humans or because he's too radical, but because he's a violent shithead who routinely abused his girlfriend emotionally to the point she still suffers PTSD, he was willing to work with human racists because they were offering him power, and because he ultimately could have walked away from Blake at any time but refused that chance in favor of hurting her in revenge for her leaving him. The idea that he shouldn't have been those things in favor of a "nuanced" story about race and forms of protests misses the point of his character entirely, that he isn't actually concerned with anyone but himself. His every action is just about his own personal gratification. He's a selfish self-centered asshole who lies about his commitment to the cause for personal gain. Not in a material sense, like money, but in terms of ego and a feeling of power over those weaker than him.

 

[Pugman]

You're missing the forest through the trees here. The reason Adam is a monstrous person isn't that he hates humans or because he's too radical, but because he's a violent shithead who routinely abused his girlfriend emotionally to the point she still suffers PTSD, he was willing to work with human racists because they were offering him power, and because he ultimately could have walked away from Blake at any time but refused that chance in favor of hurting her in revenge for her leaving him. The idea that he shouldn't have been those things in favor of a "nuanced" story about race and forms of protests misses the point of his character entirely, that he isn't actually concerned with anyone but himself. His every action is just about his own personal gratification. He's a selfish self-centered asshole who lies about his commitment to the cause for personal gain. Not in a material sense, like money, but in terms of ego and a feeling of power over those weaker than him.

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he is the guy who takes the noble cause of protests and whatnot, and tries to twist it to his personal goals.
he is the guy who hijacks the protests, while ghira is the peaceful but easily disrupted protest and sienna is the protest that can be calm but is likely to defend itself.

 

[Psyga315]

You're missing the forest through the trees here. The reason Adam is a monstrous person isn't that he hates humans or because he's too radical, but because he's a violent shithead who routinely abused his girlfriend emotionally to the point she still suffers PTSD, he was willing to work with human racists because they were offering him power, and because he ultimately could have walked away from Blake at any time but refused that chance in favor of hurting her in revenge for her leaving him. The idea that he shouldn't have been those things in favor of a "nuanced" story about race and forms of protests misses the point of his character entirely, that he isn't actually concerned with anyone but himself. His every action is just about his own personal gratification. He's a selfish self-centered asshole who lies about his commitment to the cause for personal gain. Not in a material sense, like money, but in terms of ego and a feeling of power over those weaker than him.

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And you've missed the forest as well.

He's a violent shithead because he lived a violent life. He routinely abused his girlfriend emotionally because he doesn't know how to form proper emotional bonds. He took power because he lived his whole life without power. He only cares for himself because that's what he had to do for most of his life.

He wasn't born evil like some sort of spawn of Satan. He was nurtured to know that violence was the only answer. Yes, his shitty life shouldn't excuse him from doing the bad things he did, but his shitty life explains why he's doing the bad things.

This isn't to mean that he was truly after equality. Yeah, the case can definitely be made that he's merely looking out for number one (which is himself), but his violent past (remember, his eye got fucking branded) is the reason for his violent behaviors.