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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • If anyone here has considered getting a FIRST membership I would recommend getting one for a few months at least to watch the Grimm Campaign. It is a riot. :D



    link
     
    I'm writing an updated chronology of Vacuan history based on the information in Before the Dawn.

    However, I'm getting rather stalled by the question of just how thoroughly I need to provide proof and reasoning to back up my assertion of when, exactly, Vacuo became a free and independent nation again. I've seen some people express views very different from my own, and I'm wondering how the FNDM is portioned on this issue.

    So, I started a Straw Poll where the provided options are:
    1. As part of the Vytal Peace Accords, after the Vacuo Campaign of the Great War
    2. When Vacuo joined Vale during the later half of the Great War
    3. A relatively short time before the 10 years of the Great War
    4. Before the 100 years of building tension that preceded the Great War
    5. Other: Please explain
    Someone on Reddit asked for clarification:

    So, are we talking political autonomy or economic autonomy? Basically, whether other countries were controlling what passed for state leadership in Vacuo, or whether they were siphoning what was left of their resources? The former obviously happened before - probably well before - the Great War based on the diplomatic situation at the start, but the latter I wouldn't be surprised if it happened when Vacuo decided to throw in with Vale and consequently nationalized M&M's "investments". But then, I don't think it's super clear either.
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    Political autonomy, then. Having their wealth extracted through unfair deals would mean a lack of full autonomy, but at least Vacuo was more or less setting its own policies. They were free, even if they didn't have as much wealth to enjoy that freedom as they should.

    I'd interpret your position as "Before the 100 years of building tension that preceded the Great War".

    Yeah, World of Remnant definitely implies that Vacuo, or at least its component tribes under some nominally-royal ceremonial authority, were politically independent and capable of setting their own policy with regards to the war and the fraught era leading up to it.

    Also, in general, there's no real practical reason to turn a bigass desert on another continent into your client state when you can just bleed them dry through enforced trade concessions. If I've learned anything from a high school level history education and a lot of strategy games, it's that overseas puppets and colonies are expensive, resource-draining vanity projects, but economic influence is cheap and profitable.
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    Indeed.

    Plus, if Mistral and Mantle did leave after emptying out Paradise Oasis and all other known mines, but then later tried to come back after Vacuo found new mines...

    Conquering Western Sanus a second time would prove a lot more difficult and expensive than the first time, on account of the entire region being united and prepared for a fight.

    Better to resort to economic warfare, at that point. Offer Vacuo deals too good to refuse, but not good enough to be fair.

    Like allowing the national Mistral Trading Company to build a Dust refinery in Vacuo City. Let the Vacuans do all of the mining for you, but offer them the best refining services in the world... for a price. And never sell them the trade secrets.

    Since it was a national company, likely subsidized by the Mistralian empire, the refinery might have actually under-charged to under-cut the competition, squeezing Vacuan refineries out of business. Like what Jacques would later do with the SDC.
     
    More Grimm Campaign content. I might write a summary of the recent episode and provide some screenshots when I have the time. If I feel like it.

    thuskindlyshescatters.tumblr.com

    RWBY

    RWBY original posts (mostly). Feel free to ask questions! Also, I draw and write, make edits, gifs,...
    thuskindlyshescatters.tumblr.com thuskindlyshescatters.tumblr.com

    link
     
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    Treating Misleading Sources As Legitimate
    Not related to RWBy itself, but since we don't have a dedicated RT thread and this is going to affect the show either way:

    RT Tells Customers To Get Lost "If You're Not With Us"

    Now, I don't care what you think of the company or the show, I might even be wrong, but I'm going to say it: the countdown started. Get ready to say goodbye!

    This year we have seen so many companies and studios being downsized and more being axed without mercy. RT is under WB and AT&T and since WB is mostly entertainment and the big studios in the industry bleed out hundreds of $$, we've seen them asking for bails and downsizing like crazy. Rooster Teeth desperately needs to justify why it should continue to function as it is, however:

    - Founders of the studio already left;
    - Employees are leaving and denouncing horrible work conditions and culture. People only do that when they have nothing to lose, or the company lost any kind of prestige that would enable them to blacklist any who snitch on them;
    - RT is running a PR campaign and showing all the tell-tale signs of desperation, trying the good ol' "No, we totally for inclusivity and social justice. Believe us!", combined with "We're reviewing our past content to show how committed we are. Please support and praise us!";
    - RT published a twitter saying "if you're not with us, you can leave." This is textbook "attacking your fans to show how above it all you are, because you are bleeding paying customers". They are just disguising it by calling people <insert stock insult here>.

    We've seen this song-and-dance before. We know what the next chapters of this soap opera are going to be like. Again, I might be wrong, but this is a known pattern and they are following it, step-by-step.

    If RWBY doesn't finish this next season (and, oh boy!, I wonder how rushed it would be by this point), we might as well say our goodbyes, because it'll either be canned and put in the vault together with all other unfinished shows under WB umbrella, or some other studio might pick it up, changing things completely, or just outright reboot it.
     
    Underworlder said:
    - RT published a twitter saying "if you're not with us, you can leave." This is textbook "attacking your fans to show how above it all you are, because you are bleeding paying customers". They are just disguising it by calling people <insert stock insult here>.
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    Much personal attack, such insulting. I really feel for the racists, sexists, and harassers who felt they were being addressed by this tweet.
     
    Or, after the consequences of their previous inactions towards racist, sexist and general harrassment both inside the company and from the fanbase towards specific staff members became very clear, they've decided that they're going to be more proactive in responding to such things. And if you're upset over them having a problem with such behaviour, they're not really interested in your money.
     
    Edit: Actually I think I'm gonna just stay out of this argument. I dont know the full story so I have no place to talk about others' opinions on it.
     
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    There's no problem "being against such behavior", but we've repeatedly seen corporations accusing people of that behavior as an excuse to ostracize them, or as an excuse for why people stopped being customers.

    Ultimately, a company exists to make money, because it ceases to exist if it can't pay its employees. A bigot's dollar can be used for an egalitarian's purpose.
     
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    I'm more wondering why we don't have an out right RoosterTeeth thread at this point given all the non-RWBY content they make.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    There's no problem "being against such behavior", but we've repeatedly seen corporations accusing people of that behavior as an excuse to ostracize them, or as an excuse for why people stopped being customers.

    Ultimately, a company exists to make money, because it ceases to exist if it can't pay its employees. A bigot's dollar can be used for an egalitarian's purpose.
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    You're not wrong, but I'm taking this attitude more from the fact that I've been watching some other RT content, namely the podcasts where they've been discussing these issues over the past year or so. While it remains to be seen if they can clean up the mess that exists, the fact is they've been working on it for a while, between reshuffling, new policies, departures of certain people and new oversight methods. Even before Mica Burton spoke publicly of just why she left the company, which was the last thing to really apply a proper and well-deserved kick to the balls, they were already moving in this direction. I'm mostly optimistic.
     
    Underworlder said:
    - Founders of the studio already left;
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    Or rather one of them left to move to a different country and is still technically attached to them as a studio and another was fired for being a horrible person who had told two separate coworkers he hopes they get killed due to their stance on gun control.

    Underworlder said:
    - RT is running a PR campaign and showing all the tell-tale signs of desperation, trying the good ol' "No, we totally for inclusivity and social justice. Believe us!", combined with "We're reviewing our past content to show how committed we are. Please support and praise us!";
    - RT published a twitter saying "if you're not with us, you can leave." This is textbook "attacking your fans to show how above it all you are, because you are bleeding paying customers". They are just disguising it by calling people <insert stock insult here>.
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    You're literally taking them telling bigots to no longer watch their product as a bad thing and a sign they're going to crash? Like I get it Republicans buy sneakers too but at this point in time the public is kinda going through a with us or with them moment so it sort of makes sense to be openly against bigotry. Especially since they've had a very recent very public back and forth with a former employee who made it plain the reason she left was because the company refused to openly speak out against the racism she was experiencing from the so-called fans. They literally have promised to be better and now that they are it's an issue?
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    There's no problem "being against such behavior", but we've repeatedly seen corporations accusing people of that behavior as an excuse to ostracize them, or as an excuse for why people stopped being customers.

    Ultimately, a company exists to make money, because it ceases to exist if it can't pay its employees. A bigot's dollar can be used for an egalitarian's purpose.
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    When silently taking the bigot's dollar means the bigot is free to chase away ten other potential paying customers with their vitriol, it isn't a good business decision to stay silent.

    RWBY along with many other large fandoms has always had major toxicity problems and it should be taken as a good sign RT is starting to take steps towards moderating it instead of ignoring it or outright pouring gasoline on the dumpster fires in the belief that any form of publicity equals more money (stares at the crispy remains of the Voltron fandom).
     
    I mean it's pretty telling that in order to try and sound like they have a point they had to cut out 2/3rds of the tweet to rob it of any context.

    But, ultimately, many companies are having to navigate a social shift in attitudes. Rooster Teeth, having been criticized by both sides anyway, has chosen to throw its lot in with the more progressive side and I can't really be mad at them for that.
     
    Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

    Are you all really going to take everything RT's twitter says at face value, completely forgetting that they are part of a corporation? Do you remember the layoffs, the Glassdoor reviews about horrible working conditions? I don't care what a subsidiary of a corporation says they stand for. Saying that you are for the good and justice is all well and good, but how many companies and sites did that before they closed their doors permanently.

    I don't trust corporations or their mouthpieces, not since the whole Blizzard "you said 'Free Honk Kong' and offended the Chinese 'people', so we take away all of your titles and prizes". I don't have any reason to believe that if Trump appeared before them with a load of cash to bail them out they wouldn't take it, no matter what their twitter feed says. Especially now that Warner and AT&T are reshuffling their management. What makes you believe that the people with the real power of decision there won't feel their souls for a bit of cash while spouting words of morality and tolerance?

    And on the whole "are you defending bigots?!", sorry, but what makes you think I was doing that? Rather, what makes you think I actually believe RT are really calling bigots out? After the toxic work environment and layoffs thing, I can only compare them to Bethesda, who shows the Pride Month colors and make mouth noises on acceptance and everything while their higher ups were groping and harassing female employees?

    Sure, there must be some people that are genuinely bigots, but are we supposed to believe that every single person that doesn't agree with RT or give them money is one? Because for a subsidiary of a corporation to suddenly start doing these things you have to lose a lot of customers, not just a small parcel of racists and bigots (unless you believe that every single client they are losing are racists and bigots, then I don't know what to tell you).

    Like I've said, this a song and dance we've seen before: whenever they get desperate and things start hurting financially/projections of revenue drop, they start attacking people and saying "we don't need you or your money" when, 90% of the time, they NEED that money, otherwise the higher ups will just fire them and they can condemn all of the alt-right as much as they want that it won't make a difference, because they are already out of a job.

    Compare it with what happened in several other cases and you'll see the pattern I've pointed above. When RT was an Indie studio I was willingly to give them the benefit of the doubt, but ever since they were bought out and WB started to dictate what their management board should look like, my pessimist came out, because all big corporations, at the end of the day, look only at the bottom line. And if they say they totally aren't and are actually working for a higher cause without looking at where the money is from, I can only look back at all other companies that said the same thing, but try very hard to hide all of the abuse, mistreatment and toxicity going behind the curtain.

    And my opinion is: this might be too little, too late for them if they now have to constantly be on twitter constantly to reminding everybody that they are good people and don't tolerate racism, <insert all the things here>. If that is good enough for you, then fine, but I won't believe their words.
     
    MinorGryph said:
    When silently taking the bigot's dollar means the bigot is free to chase away ten other potential paying customers with their vitriol, it isn't a good business decision to stay silent.
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    I doubt Rooster Teeth screens the ideology of people who sign up for First Membership, or that stores do the same for people purchasing DVDs and manga of RWBY.

    And even if they did, the bigots wouldn't suddenly go away.

    So, what does Rooster Teeth's announcement accomplish?


    But this may be my limited perspective as a fan of RWBY who isn't a fan of Rooster Teeth. I don't care about the Rooster Teeth community of fans, the little shows, or Red Versus Blue, beyond vague philanthropy.


    Jcogginsa said:
    The fact that your source is literally run by a hate group?
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    I take no accusations of "hate group" seriously without evidence and personal research.

    It's a "he said, she said" world. Like the Amber Heard vs Johnny Dep situation that's turning completely around in the courts.
     
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    Underworlder said:
    Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

    Are you all really going to take everything RT's twitter says at face value, completely forgetting that they are part of a corporation? Do you remember the layoffs, the Glassdoor reviews about horrible working conditions? I don't care what a subsidiary of a corporation says they stand for. Saying that you are for the good and justice is all well and good, but how many companies and sites did that before they closed their doors permanently.

    I don't trust corporations or their mouthpieces, not since the whole Blizzard "you said 'Free Honk Kong' and offended the Chinese 'people', so we take away all of your titles and prizes". I don't have any reason to believe that if Trump appeared before them with a load of cash to bail them out they wouldn't take it, no matter what their twitter feed says. Especially now that Warner and AT&T are reshuffling their management. What makes you believe that the people with the real power of decision there won't feel their souls for a bit of cash while spouting words of morality and tolerance?

    And on the whole "are you defending bigots?!", sorry, but what makes you think I was doing that? Rather, what makes you think I actually believe RT are really calling bigots out? After the toxic work environment and layoffs thing, I can only compare them to Bethesda, who shows the Pride Month colors and make mouth noises on acceptance and everything while their higher ups were groping and harassing female employees?

    Sure, there must be some people that are genuinely bigots, but are we supposed to believe that every single person that doesn't agree with RT or give them money is one? Because for a subsidiary of a corporation to suddenly start doing these things you have to lose a lot of customers, not just a small parcel of racists and bigots (unless you believe that every single client they are losing are racists and bigots, then I don't know what to tell you).

    Like I've said, this a song and dance we've seen before: whenever they get desperate and things start hurting financially/projections of revenue drop, they start attacking people and saying "we don't need you or your money" when, 90% of the time, they NEED that money, otherwise the higher ups will just fire them and they can condemn all of the alt-right as much as they want that it won't make a difference, because they are already out of a job.

    Compare it with what happened in several other cases and you'll see the pattern I've pointed above. When RT was an Indie studio I was willingly to give them the benefit of the doubt, but ever since they were bought out and WB started to dictate what their management board should look like, my pessimist came out, because all big corporations, at the end of the day, look only at the bottom line. And if they say they totally aren't and are actually working for a higher cause without looking at where the money is from, I can only look back at all other companies that said the same thing, but try very hard to hide all of the abuse, mistreatment and toxicity going behind the curtain.

    And my opinion is: this might be too little, too late for them if they now have to constantly be on twitter constantly to reminding everybody that they are good people and don't tolerate racism, <insert all the things here>. If that is good enough for you, then fine, but I won't believe their words.
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    It is one thing to call out RT for the crap things it's done.

    It's entirely another to throw out a post that seems to assume many of us lack basic internet literacy. Your initial article was clickbait, it had a title that omitted key context and deliberately tried to frame a tweet by RT as far worse than it actually was. You then throw out some vague references to occurrences, again lacking context, which includes one of those founders leaving due to some very poor behaviour and one leaving entirely amicably and had transitioned to doing so over a two year period.

    So right off the bat your motivations and perspectives are brought into question. You can rage about how genuine you feel RT is being, but if you want your argument taken seriously by people who don't already share your views, you're going to need to do a lot better than that.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    I take no accusations of "hate group" seriously without evidence and personal research.

    It's a "he said, she said" world. Like the Amber Heard vs Johnny Dep situation that's turning completely around in the courts.
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    The owner/founder/editor-in-chief/writer of the article in question is one John F. Trent a vocal supporter of the Comicsgate movement and the self-proclaimed alt-right culture war comic series Alt-Hero.


    Frank Cho Denounces Comicsgate – Calls it "Alt-Right Hate Group" John F. Trent
    Chelsea Cain's Man-Eaters Series Bashed For Not Including Trans Teens John F. Trent
    Chuck Dixon Explains Comicsgate at MegaCon Tampa! John F. Trent
    EXCLUSIVE: Vox Day Responds to Negativity After Announcing ComicsGate Comics John F. Trent
     
    Jcogginsa said:
    The fact that your source is literally run by a hate group?
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    I literally had no idea.
    Sunder the Gold said:
    I doubt Rooster Teeth screens the ideology of people who sign up for First Membership, or that stores do the same for people purchasing DVDs and manga of RWBY.

    And even if they did, the bigots wouldn't suddenly go away.

    So, what does Rooster Teeth's announcement accomplish?


    But this may be my limited perspective as a fan of RWBY who isn't a fan of Rooster Teeth. I don't care about the Rooster Teeth community of fans, the little shows, or Red Versus Blue, beyond vague philanthropy.



    I take no accusations of "hate group" seriously without evidence and personal research.

    It's a "he said, she said" world. Like the Amber Heard vs Johnny Dep situation that's turning completely around in the courts.
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    Also, this. I don't know what that group did, who runs them or whatever. I just saw the article compiled the posts and information most relevant.

    Marco said:
    It is one thing to call out RT for the crap things it's done.

    It's entirely another to throw out a post that seems to assume many of us lack basic internet literacy. Your initial article was clickbait, it had a title that omitted key context and deliberately tried to frame a tweet by RT as far worse than it actually was. You then throw out some vague references to occurrences, again lacking context, which includes one of those founders leaving due to some very poor behaviour and one leaving entirely amicably and had transitioned to doing so over a two year period.

    So right off the bat your motivations and perspectives are brought into question. You can rage about how genuine you feel RT is being, but if you want your argument taken seriously by people who don't already share your views, you're going to need to do a lot better than that.
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    I'm not asking for people agree with me, in fact you can disagree and tell me I'm exaggerating things. What I don't like is putting words into my mouth, like above, saying I'm defending bigots, just because I don't screen a site when they post one measly article that compiles the information I need.

    If you go back to my post, I posted my impressions and opinion. I don't assume I can convince anybody of anything. I might color my language to give the impression I'm suggesting you do something, but I'm not going to try and convince you I am right, as I've stated in my post as well.

    So, can we please look at what I've said and stop the association thing because of where the information came from?

    Psyga315 said:
    Pretty sure this isn't the Bounding into Comics or the Rooster Teeth thread.
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    Also, yeah, we should stop here, because this is straying away from the original point.
     
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    Underworlder said:
    Like I've said, this a song and dance we've seen before: whenever they get desperate and things start hurting financially/projections of revenue drop, they start attacking people and saying "we don't need you or your money" when, 90% of the time, they NEED that money, otherwise the higher ups will just fire them and they can condemn all of the alt-right as much as they want that it won't make a difference, because they are already out of a job.
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    Another "RT is DOOMED! DOOOOOMMMMEEEEEDDD!" cold take? That's what, the 50053438th we've had this year? Yawn. People have been predicting the fall of Rooster Teeth since the day Rooster Teeth was founded. Wake me up when it's officially announcing it's bankruptcy. 😴
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    I doubt Rooster Teeth screens the ideology of people who sign up for First Membership, or that stores do the same for people purchasing DVDs and manga of RWBY.

    And even if they did, the bigots wouldn't suddenly go away.

    So, what does Rooster Teeth's announcement accomplish?
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    It reassures the sane community members who understand basic internet etiquette that RT as a company does not endorse or encourage toxic behavior from its fans, and that the minority of abusive assholes who ruin the experience for others will be moderated within the RT community.

    But this may be my limited perspective as a fan of RWBY who isn't a fan of Rooster Teeth. I don't care about the Rooster Teeth community of fans, the little shows, or Red Versus Blue, beyond vague philanthropy.
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    Then you normally wouldn't have even seen the tweet and it would have had zero impact on your decision to watch more RWBY if it weren't for clickbait articles.
     
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