RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Psyga315]

But she knew it was likely a suicide mission so she told Tai and Qrow to keep Oz's attention away from Ruby somehow.

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That could explain the angry glare Tai gave Qrow.

 

[Erinyes]

What I find interesting is Oz seemed legit surprised that Ruby had silver eyes. I feel like Sunmer found out whatever it was that made Raven take off (likely Salem's immortality) but instead of running she went to confront Salem herself. But she knew it was likely a suicide mission so she told Tai and Qrow to keep Oz's attention away from Ruby somehow. Yeah she'd fight Salem but she didn't want her daughters caught in it too.

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We've seen zero indication of any of this and plenty that goes against it. If Tai and Qrow were supposed to keep Ruby from Oz's attention, there's no way in hell either Yang or Ruby would've been allowed to attend Signal, let alone Beacon. And the reactions of Tai (as related by Yang) and Qrow (as related by himself) seem to suggest neither had a clue as to what was going on and were completely blindsided by Summer's disappearance/presumed death. Again, I find it very, very unlikely that Summer was deliberately going on a suicide mission as opposed to doing something she thought had a chance of success.

 

[Pariah]

People wanted a Sienna Khan/Magneto like figure and projected that onto Adam. A true believer in the cause who genuinely brought into the idea that violence was the only way to get any kind of equality for the Faunus. The story persents Faunus racism like a major issue, and introduces a group directly tied to that issue in the first few volumes, so assuming Faunus racism will be a major subplot is not unreasonable.

Then the story killed of all the Sienna Khan like figures (Ilia doesn't count as her redemption is more tied into Blake than anything else) and left only Adam and those people where bitter.

Essentially they got hyped for a side-story centred around civil rights movement becoming excessively violent, but instead got one centred around a story about an abusive relationship. The White Fang plot could have been done a lot better.

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Yeah except nothing in Adam's pre Vol 3 appearances suggested he was ever going to be a Magneto figure. That sections of the RWBY fandom made assumptions about Adam's story based on less than twenty minutes during the Black trailer and his appearance at the end of Volume 2 and then got salty that their head canon was contradicted baffles me.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Yeah except nothing in Adam's pre Vol 3 appearances suggested he was ever going to be a Magneto figure. That sections of the RWBY fandom made assumptions about Adam's story based on less than twenty minutes during the Black trailer and his appearance at the end of Volume 2 and then got salty that their head canon was contradicted baffles me.

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Magneto has too many different interpretations for that reference to be clear. Some Magnetos were exactly like Adam.

But running with the interpretation I think you're referring to, Sienna Khan would not be allowed to be that figure, no matter how much some viewers wanted her to be.

Sienna was smart enough to know working for Salem would be a terrible idea, so Sienna Khan was always going to die. If Adam didn't kill her, Salem would have ordered him to do it.

The story that Salem is driving doesn't allow for an X-Men story.

 

[Pugman]

here is a post that I think basically sums up how some feel when they say they don't like how Adam's story went, involving the usual take on Ilia
"Everything that was done for Ilia should have been done for Adam. She was so much like him she even had romantic feelings for Blake. She is damn near a genderbent at this point. We didn't need another useless side character most of us don't care about and we probably won't see again. Why not apply everything to the character you had since the Black trailer. Adam was the only real interesting bad guy besides Roman/Neo to be honest cause he had a real motive for why he was doing what he was doing. At least until they decided to make him go the crazy ex rout instead of the fallen mentor that had previously set him up for. Even then they could have started to set him up for redemption. He wasn't really part of the Fang anymore at the end of Volume 6. All the pieces were there or could have easily been put into place."
This is basically the kind of stuff I see when people try to clarify why they say Ilia took Adam's character and such.
I personally don't agree with it and feel they were just attached to Adam because he had "charisma" or something.

note:
I only share this because I feel it paints the picture of this side's feelings better then I could convey with mere paraphrasing.

 

[Zam]

I personally don't agree with it and feel they were just attached to Adam because he had "charisma" or something.

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Yeah those takes usually involve having ignored basically everything Adam said and did or taking it out of context or adding one's own context while knowing very little about him.

 

[daedalus725]

Adam because he had "charisma"

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If charisma is having a similar complexion or the same Genitals

 

[Leingod]

If charisma is having a similar complexion or the same Genitals

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More charitably, "charisma" here means dressing in black and red with a trenchcoat and having a katana that you do quick-draw attacks with while talking in an "intense" voice.

I, at least, just wanted him to be Knockoff Vergil so he'd be a cool recurring boss fight with a bad guy who starts out just slightly above his opposite number's level but slowly gets matched and then surpassed in successive climactic showdowns. 'Cause that shit's rad. But I feel like we didn't really get that with the fights Adam actually got in the series proper, which was kind of disappointing.

 

[Pugman]

More charitably, "charisma" here means dressing in black and red with a trenchcoat and having a katana that you do quick-draw attacks with while talking in an "intense" voice.

I, at least, just wanted him to be Knockoff Vergil so he'd be a cool recurring boss fight with a bad guy who starts out just slightly above his opposite number's level but slowly gets matched and then surpassed in successive climactic showdowns. 'Cause that shit's rad. But I feel like we didn't really get that with the fights Adam actually got in the series proper, which was kind of disappointing.

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to be honest, if Rooster Teeth had a better budget when they started this (and if they had a better understanding of what the were getting into) then for all we know they could of better balanced Monty's Rule of Cool with a better written story.
in that timeline, at least, I could see RWBY having at least a few run-ins with Adam before The Fall along with their already establish scuffles with Roman.

but there is one problem in the back of my mind with this
I feel even 1 run in between RWBY and Adam would kinda force the doors open on Blake's past. I mean, if Blake is there when her friends meet her past then she'd eventually be forced to spill the beans, especially if Adam speaks up and taunt's "Do you even KNOW who she REALLY is?"

Like, for example, let's say Adam shows up during the fight at the docks at the end of volume 1. Blake and Sun are trying to fight Roman and White Fang grunts. Ruby and Penny show up. Ruby gets knocked down which gets Penny into the fight. Then as Penny tries to do her thing to the plane, Adam himself jumps and and blocks Penny's attacks. Thus for a moment we see how badass both Penny and Adam are. Adam says something and indicates he knows Blake and other stuff before leaving. RWBY reunites, Weiss has her moment, then Ruby nervously brings up "Blake....who was that guy?"

 

[VolantRedX]

Personally, I could never take Adam seriously. He had a coolish weapon, and the effort to make him threatening did work in many ways but as I've said before his voice just utterly fails to match the character. I feel bad saying that because I'm sure the guy tried hard, but it just sounds so flat and empty without any of the darker undertones it was supposed to have.

 

[Zam]

Honestly I don't think Adam could really show up much without either losing threat level, or coming off as a different villain, Roman's level admittedly stayed consistent despite being recurring but he also tended to book it over fight and to draw on the same character again, he had a different less personal relationship with the heroes so him being a recurring foe wouldn't have the same impacts Adam would.

The thing is, while he's not nearly as badass as those who love him like to say he is legitimately a dangerous fighter and what's more he is an extremely personal and even more, triggering, foe to Blake, who's presence is liable to have massive impacts on her even if he doesn't tear her world down and that's not getting into what he might do to those around her.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

In the end, Adam served the role he was made for. He hurt people, made everything worse, and was eventually put down by two of his biggest victims. And according to comments made by his VA, that's what was always intended.

 

[daedalus725]

I, at least, just wanted him to be Knockoff Vergil

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He's a huge jerk off like Vergil so there's that at least

 

[Eos_Astraeus]

Personally, I could never take Adam seriously. He had a coolish weapon, and the effort to make him threatening did work in many ways but as I've said before his voice just utterly fails to match the character. I feel bad saying that because I'm sure the guy tried hard, but it just sounds so flat and empty without any of the darker undertones it was supposed to have.

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Again, its less people actually like Adam's characterisation, more they wanted the main representative (Only Adam was in a leadership role and got any real characterisation and screen time. Sienna died to quick, and Ghira was shown to be suicidally pacifistic when leader) of the anti-racisim group to have a plotline and character more centred around the anti-racism group. Nothing wrong with the story choosing to focus more on interpersonal drama compared to societal drama, but if after 3-5 volumes you were invested in the racism plotline, being pissed about it being essentially brushed off is not unwarranted.

They built up faunus discrimination as an issue, showed white fangs radicalisation as a symptom of that issue, dealt with white fang and hoped that the issue would quietly fade into the background (I think there was something about the showrunners dropping the plotline because they didn't feel qualified to write about it?). But by that point a portion of the fandom was invested in that part of the story and wanted some resolution.

A similar situation would be if LoK showed non-benders were second class citizens, people did get discriminated against for not being benders, and non-benders were barely tolerated in any position of power during the first season, but still kept the same finale with the equalists being disbanded and no other policy changes, and the rest of the series follows unchanged. Sure I'm happy Korra saved the city, but now I'm invested in how she tries to deal with the root cause of the issue, but the plot will never go back there.

 

[Zam]

Again, its less people actually like Adam's characterisation, more they wanted the main representative (Only Adam was in a leadership role and got any real characterisation and screen time. Sienna died to quick, and Ghira was shown to be suicidally pacifistic when leader) of the anti-racisim group to have a plotline and character more centred around the anti-racism group. Nothing wrong with the story choosing to focus more on interpersonal drama compared to societal drama, but if after 3-5 volumes you were invested in the racism plotline, being pissed about it being essentially brushed off is not unwarranted.

They built up faunus discrimination as an issue, showed white fangs radicalisation as a symptom of that issue, dealt with white fang and hoped that the issue would quietly fade into the background (I think there was something about the showrunners dropping the plotline because they didn't feel qualified to write about it?). But by that point a portion of the fandom was invested in that part of the story and wanted some resolution.

A similar situation would be if LoK showed non-benders were second class citizens, people did get discriminated against for not being benders, and non-benders were barely tolerated in any position of power during the first season, but still kept the same finale with the equalists being disbanded and no other policy changes, and the rest of the series follows unchanged. Sure I'm happy Korra saved the city, but now I'm invested in how she tries to deal with the root cause of the issue, but the plot will never go back there.

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My issue with this argument is that despite my problems with their handling of the subject, Adam was 'never' skated to be a god focal point character for that, at any point, ever. Again he's introduced tricking Blake onto a mission of mass murder he's not meant to be doing to kill people essentially for a laugh, tries to manipulate and intimidate her into going along with it and gets ditched. Next time we see him he's shrugging off the death of his troops and promising to get them back into line after Cinder's plan got a bunch of them killed and following that is V3.

I sympathize with wanting more of that plot line, I do as well (And also Sienna back) but Adam was never even close to set up as a character who could play that role.

While the politics of LoK (Its basically soft pro American propaganda without the writers even realizing it) They did make some changes, namely institute a more representative democracy (in theory) that ended with a none Bender elected President.

 

[VolantRedX]

Again, its less people actually like Adam's characterisation, more they wanted the main representative (Only Adam was in a leadership role and got any real characterisation and screen time. Sienna died to quick, and Ghira was shown to be suicidally pacifistic when leader) of the anti-racisim group to have a plotline and character more centred around the anti-racism group. Nothing wrong with the story choosing to focus more on interpersonal drama compared to societal drama, but if after 3-5 volumes you were invested in the racism plotline, being pissed about it being essentially brushed off is not unwarranted.

They built up faunus discrimination as an issue, showed white fangs radicalisation as a symptom of that issue, dealt with white fang and hoped that the issue would quietly fade into the background (I think there was something about the showrunners dropping the plotline because they didn't feel qualified to write about it?). But by that point a portion of the fandom was invested in that part of the story and wanted some resolution.

A similar situation would be if LoK showed non-benders were second class citizens, people did get discriminated against for not being benders, and non-benders were barely tolerated in any position of power during the first season, but still kept the same finale with the equalists being disbanded and no other policy changes, and the rest of the series follows unchanged. Sure I'm happy Korra saved the city, but now I'm invested in how she tries to deal with the root cause of the issue, but the plot will never go back there.

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There might be something to this, but well, in my experience the kinds of people who really Stan for Adam tend to be the sorts of people to complain about black people in Star Wars and screech SJW at anyone talking about bigotry in narratives. The idea that they were angry that the racism plotline* is a bit of a stretch.

*Which actually did get a pretty decent wrap-up, with the conclusion basically being that answering violence with violence is ultimately going to fail because all it will do is attract people like Adam who only care about violence for its own sake and fail to actually advance the cause. It's fine to dislike that conclusion but to say it doesn't exist or that the racism thing was brushed off is ignoring the text.

 

[LordDarthYoda]

By his appearance by the end of v6 I kind of felt like Adam wasn't really a threat on the level of Salem or WTCH. Yeah he's dangerous but the other villains are all kingdom destroyed levels. It's why I was ok with Roman's death too, he was more local and clearly outclassed as soon as we saw Salem's evil board meeting.

 

[Eos_Astraeus]

There might be something to this, but well, in my experience the kinds of people who really Stan for Adam tend to be the sorts of people to complain about black people in Star Wars and screech wonderful person at anyone talking about bigotry in narratives. The idea that they were angry that the racism plotline* is a bit of a stretch.

*Which actually did get a pretty decent wrap-up, with the conclusion basically being that answering violence with violence is ultimately going to fail because all it will do is attract people like Adam who only care about violence for its own sake and fail to actually advance the cause. It's fine to dislike that conclusion but to say it doesn't exist or that the racism thing was brushed off is ignoring the text.

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I tend to find that although there is overlap between the groups wanting better representation for the racism plotline and those just supporting Adam, trying to group them all as toxic fans is disingenuous and is generally used to shut down debate with the former by grouping them with the latter.

On the second point.
The issue is where the narrative went faunus racism as an issue.

• Peaceful protesting will fail and cause people turn to violence
• Violent protesting can be exploited by those who don't care about the issue and just want to be violent
• Using violence to stop people pushed to far by the racism will earn you nebulous brownie points.

The narrative moves to another continent before the aftereffects can be shown so the benefit of the last step can't be seen. That's the reason I say there was no conclusion. We see a climactic battle but not its aftermath. Moreover, considering the last time faunus actually helped it ended in ethnic cleansing, I've got no real reason to hold out hope.

Moreover, the flashbacks showing how Sienna came into power with lynch mobs attacking Faunus really don't paint Ghira's strategy as viable. Especially as Sienna was in control of the situation until Adam got external help, and even then didn't have the support to so it publicly.

Essentially, for the cause of Faunus Racism.

• Ghira's White Fang: +Nebulous long term progress, -Faunus getting lynched
• Sienna's White Fang: +Faunus not getting lynched, +Nebulous short term progress, -harder long term progress, -Risk of Adam taking over
• Adam's White Fang: -Suicidal Death Cult -PR, +PR opp for Ghira for taking them down
• Ghira's new org: +Nebulous long term progress

You end up with the narrative that no violence will get you killed, some controlled violence will lead to uncontrolled violence, and you should stop your friends when they are driven to far in their violence without dealing with the root cause of the issue.

The Black Panther movie handled the racism situation better by trying to deal with the root cause of the issue that caused killmonger, rather than killing him and being done with it.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

Honestly, I'm not sure the White Fang plot is entirely done. If nothing else, I get the feeling Blake is going to take a very active role in the political side of the resistance against whatever dumbfuckery Ironwood tries next. The woman who took a stand against the Broken Fang in Haven, to the point of sailing a civilian militia an incredibly long distance? Yeah, she's not walking away from politics.

(I tend to assume it was Nora talking sense into Ironwood after the election night because they knew there's no way he'd listen to a Faunus former terrorist.)

 

[Sunder the Gold]

If charisma is having a similar complexion or the same Genitals

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The same could be said of the "Raven did nothing wrong" crowd.

But I think more of his fans were as @Leingod suggests; they were sold on his style, not his gender or skin, and those not sold on his style alone made up great expectations for his role in the story.

Hell, I know this one Tumblrite who claims to be black. He hates Weiss and is still bitterly angry about how the White Fang story went down. He's my touchpoint for those people who wanted Adam or Sienna Khan to be a Malcom X or Magneto.

He might prefer that Blake and Adam be dark-skinned, but being pale sure didn't stop him from gravitating to Adam.

 

[Eos_Astraeus]

Honestly, I'm not sure the White Fang plot is entirely done. If nothing else, I get the feeling Blake is going to take a very active role in the political side of the resistance against whatever dumbfuckery Ironwood tries next. The woman who took a stand against the Broken Fang in Haven, to the point of sailing a civilian militia an incredibly long distance? Yeah, she's not walking away from politics.

(I tend to assume it was Nora talking sense into Ironwood after the election night because they knew there's no way he'd listen to a Faunus former terrorist.)

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In all honesty Blake has ironically been fairly divorced from the faunus discrimination issue in the latest volumes, with Weiss leading the charge on trying various things to stop it (assaulting the racist drunk, trying to aplogise for what her family did), but not arriving at any kind of working solution. That honestly works right now as there isn't some magical solution to the issue of discrimination, and it shows she's at least trying to find a solution.

It also kind of makes me dislike the white fang storyline more the better Weiss deals with the racism plot. It makes the white fang even more of a pointless sidequest to defeat a mook army as shipping fodder (nothing wrong with shipping fodder, every one of Hinata's additional apperances in the Naruto anime where shipping fodder and they were amazing) rather than any kind of social commentary.

 

[Pugman]

In the end, Adam served the role he was made for. He hurt people, made everything worse, and was eventually put down by two of his biggest victims. And according to comments made by his VA, that's what was always intended.

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care to share the source and quote?
so I can spread it around?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Ghira was shown to be suicidally pacifistic when leader

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His people were safely behind cover. The enemy was hiding in the trees and not daring to advance. He had no idea what they wanted.

Ghira wasn't being suicidal; he was trying to defuse a situation by talking things over. The best victory is the battle not fought.

He risked himself alone, rather than any of his people.

After he was shot, he didn't get a chance to decide how to proceed since Sienna Khan took over.

But I doubt Ghira only recovered right after Adam killed that guy. He wasn't so badly hurt that he lost all sense of the world around him, because he didn't fall to the ground. He just clutched and curled around the arm that got shot.

Ghira didn't shout for Adam to stop fighting. He didn't criticize Adam for defending the caravan; Ghira didn't gesture to the attackers who fled, he gestured to the corpse of the man that Adam didn't need to kill to stop. Ghira knew Adam could have stopped him without killing him.

they wanted the main representative of the anti-racisim group to have a plotline and character more centred around the anti-racism group

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Blake and the peaceful faunus protesters in the very first episode were representative of the anti-racism group. The White Fang is just another racist group, since they're racist against humans; wanting to kill humans rather than achieve peace with them.

Peaceful protesting will fail and cause people turn to violence

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How did Ghira and peaceful protesting fail?

Just because Sienna Khan and her followers lost patience with peaceful protests doesn't mean they were ineffective. Just that they were slow.

Change is slow. Winning hearts and minds can be a generational struggle.

You can't force trees to grow any faster, and cutting down someone else's orchard won't make your trees grow any faster.


You can ask yourself "What was Ghira's peaceful protesting meant to achieve?" and then ask yourself if Sienna Khan's methods actually worked towards those goals.

Ghira wanted humans to decide to trust and accept faunus. Sienna Khan wanted them to fear the faunus. Her methods could not possibly achieve Ghira's goals.

 

[Zam]

His people were safely behind cover. The enemy was hiding in the trees and not daring to advance. He had no idea what they wanted.

Ghira wasn't being suicidal; he was trying to defuse a situation by talking things over. The best victory is the battle not fought.

He risked himself alone, rather than any of his people.

After he was shot, he didn't get a chance to decide how to proceed since Sienna Khan took over.

But I doubt Ghira only recovered right after Adam killed that guy. He wasn't so badly hurt that he lost all sense of the world around him, because he didn't fall to the ground. He just clutched and curled around the arm that got shot.

Ghira didn't shout for Adam to stop fighting. He didn't criticize Adam for defending the caravan; Ghira didn't gesture to the attackers who fled, he gestured to the corpse of the man that Adam didn't need to kill to stop. Ghira knew Adam could have stopped him without killing him.

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This makes a ton of presumptions frankly and I don't agree with pretty much any of it, especially as narratively I feel that scene was designed to show 'why' Ghira failed and was replaced as High Leader.

Blake and the peaceful faunus protesters in the very first episode were representative of the anti-racism group. The White Fang is just another racist group, since they're racist against humans; wanting to kill humans rather than achieve peace with them.

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You mean the White Fang that was under Cinder's control, also that doesn't represent the entirety of the WF given despite preaching such a thing Adam couldn't take over officially and had to lie his way into the position of High Leader.

How did Ghira and peaceful protesting fail?

Just because Sienna Khan and her followers lost patience with peaceful protests doesn't mean they were ineffective. Just that they were slow.

Change is slow. Winning hearts and minds can be a generational struggle.

You can't force trees to grow any faster, and cutting down someone else's orchard won't make your trees grow any faster.


You can ask yourself "What was Ghira's peaceful protesting meant to achieve?" and then ask yourself if Sienna Khan's methods actually worked towards those goals.

Ghira wanted humans to decide to trust and accept faunus. Sienna Khan wanted them to fear the faunus. Her methods could not possibly achieve Ghira's goals.

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Because that is what we were shown in Blake's monologue, the flashback and was more or less spelled out in Ghira's own speech.

We know Sienna Khan's methods worked as they were explicitly stated to and nothing ever established Bake as being wrong about that.

Also that is mi-representative, Ghira himself spells out Sienna wanted equality, she wanted humans to fear oppressing and abusing Faunus, which she did by making those who did so suffer consequences for doing so.

 

[Pugman]

This makes a ton of presumptions frankly and I don't agree with pretty much any of it, especially as narratively I feel that scene was designed to show 'why' Ghira failed and was replaced as High Leader.


You mean the White Fang that was under Cinder's control, also that doesn't represent the entirety of the WF given despite preaching such a thing Adam couldn't take over officially and had to lie his way into the position of High Leader.

Because that is what we were shown in Blake's monologue, the flashback and was more or less spelled out in Ghira's own speech.

We know Sienna Khan's methods worked as they were explicitly stated to and nothing ever established Bake as being wrong about that.

Also that is mi-representative, Ghira himself spells out Sienna wanted equality, she wanted humans to fear oppressing and abusing Faunus, which she did by making those who did so suffer consequences for doing so.

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"Working" with an *
Because while, yes, it was getting "results" faster than Ghira non-violent talking method, we also see it's short comings. one of said short comings being what came back and grabbed the tiger by the tail.

Here is the thing, both Ghira AND your "Hero Queen" Sienna failed in their own ways. Both wanted peace, both saw a different way to it, and both missed the potholes in their path to it. Ghira was to passive for people to take seriously, so progress was agonizingly slow. Meanwhile Sienna's violence both allowed for men like Adam to get their "pound of flesh" as it were, and this in turn would still leave distrust of the faunus in the minds of the people around Remnant, such as the Vale Cops right away pinning the dust thefts on The Fang, despite known criminal Roman Torchwick working the area.
Ya forcing change can work, but it is not likely to stick for long. One bad egg (Adam) can spoil the batch.