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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Well there he pushed himself between Weiss and Pyrrha, invaded her personal space despite her specifically telling him he was too close and only moved when Pyrrha made him. After that e bothered Weiss while she was trying to studying class (and we know this was not a new but recurring thing) bothered her in her dorm and lied to her, and just was generally extremely pushy about trying to get a date whole refusing to accept that no meant no.
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    I'm not a fan of Jaune, but while it pains me to say this...
    • Weiss didn't even try directly asking Jaune to move before turning to Pyrrha for help. She also put herself between Pyrrha and Jaune, and even initiated physical contact, which is more than Jaune did.
    • If this is referring to "A Minor Hiccup", Weiss wasn't even paying attention to Professor Port. She was staring at the clock. And Jaune should've been more clueful, but he asked fairly cordially.
    • He did say the song had ended. That was a lie. Was the singing bad? Yes, Weiss's facepalm was quite appropriate. Was the lie morally outrageous? Not unless you're Kant.
    • Did he specifically cross the line? Jaune was unwise, but I'm not sure if a lack of social intuition is morally offensive. We know Weiss shot him down on specific occasions, but not whether Weiss ever explained that future attempts would be unwelcome. It seems Weiss barely spoke to Jaune, as she felt he was beneath contempt. (Not without reason, to be fair.)
    Jaune's missteps are aggravating, but I wouldn't go so far as to say his lack of social graces is unethical.
     
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    mysterius said:
    I'm not a fan of Jaune, but while it pains me to say this...
    • Weiss didn't even try directly asking Jaune to move before turning to Pyrrha for help. She also put herself between Pyrrha and Jaune, and even initiated physical contact, which is more than Jaune did.
    • If this is referring to "A Minor Hiccup", Weiss wasn't even paying attention to Professor Port. She was staring at the clock. And Jaune should've been more clueful, but he asked fairly cordially.
    • He did say the song had ended. That was a lie. Was the singing bad? Yes, Weiss's facepalm was quite appropriate. Was the lie morally outrageous? Not unless you're Kant.
    • Did he specifically cross the line? Jaune was unwise, but I'm not sure if a lack of social intuition is morally offensive. We know Weiss shot him down on specific occasions, but not whether Weiss ever explained that future attempts would be unwelcome. It seems Weiss barely spoke to Jaune, as she felt he was beneath contempt. (Not without reason, to be fair.)
    Jaune's missteps are aggravating, but I wouldn't go so far as to say his lack of social graces is unethical.
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    As to your points, she specifically told him to his face that he was too close, she shouldn't need to do anything else, and while inserting herself between them could be deemed rude, Jaune did it first and she didn't invade personal space to do it.

    He's still bothering her in class, and how cordial he is is irrelevant after her's, according to Yang's statement' tried and been turned down multiple times. No means no. Honestly I'd be staring at the clock begging for it to be over if Jaune was asking me on a date for the xth time.

    He is bothering her in her place of residence in a loud and disruptive manner and lying while doing so just to get face time with her. Who is Kant?

    Thing is, she should only have to turn him down once for him to stop forcing himself into her life and space and asking her out, she shouldn't have to sit him down and explain in fine detail why constantly barraging her for dates is rude, or disrespectful, he should grasp that if he doesn't want to be seen as a jerk.
     
    Zam said:
    Thing is, she should only have to turn him down once for him to stop forcing himself into her life and space and asking her out, she shouldn't have to sit him down and explain in fine detail why constantly barraging her for dates is rude, or disrespectful, he should grasp that if he doesn't want to be seen as a jerk.
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    I'm not sure if you realize this, but people don't instinctively know what is and isn't socially acceptable. A lot of people don't even agree about it!
    So, frankly, "he should just know" is a pretty shitty point to use when explaining why behavior isn't acceptable.
     
    azoicennead said:
    I'm not sure if you realize this, but people don't instinctively know what is and isn't socially acceptable. A lot of people don't even agree about it!
    So, frankly, "he should just know" is a pretty shitty point to use when explaining why behavior isn't acceptable.
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    Thing is, it shows a lack of respect for Weiss's opinions and agency as a person if he just keeps pushing his presence on her after she'd made it abundantly clear she isn't interested. Again the, no means no, statement applies in my book a lack of social grace can only excuse so much before it just becomes him ignoring her.
     
    Zam said:
    Thing is, it shows a lack of respect for Weiss's opinions and agency as a person if he just keeps pushing his presence on her after she'd made it abundantly clear she isn't interested. Again the, no means no, statement applies in my book a lack of social grace can only excuse so much before it just becomes him ignoring her.
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    This doesn't address my post at all, it just repeats your point.
     
    azoicennead said:
    This doesn't address my post at all, it just repeats your point.
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    What exactly do you want me to say? This can be a sensitive issue and I'm not saying he should know it instinctively, he should have learnt it though; the only people I've ever encountered who can't take no for an answer and keep pushing the way he does have been jerks who generally think they are entitled to attention or sex. (No I'm not say Jaune is like that, but it brings the same sort of dismissive attitude to mind)

    I mean, how comfortable would you be if a guy approached you out of nowhere, forced his way into your personal space while talking about hoe great he was, after you made it clear verbally he was too close and after that asked you out again, and again, and again? Ignoring you every time you said, no, not interested, go away ETC?

    Plus, the words 'no' are pretty standard, that doesn't change because he's asking her on a date, I ask to use someone's car, or coffee mug and they say and I ignore them, I'm not being socially dense I'm being a jerk who is inconsiderate, disrespectful and insensitive. This is even clearer when it comes to dating because, unlike with the car (where I might not have my own and really need it now) or the mug (I can clean it later if that's the issue) a date is very clearly one person to one person romantic engagement, if someone says no it means they aren't interested and asking them again is, well, rude.
     
    Zam said:
    As to your points, she specifically told him to his face that he was too close, she shouldn't need to do anything else, and while inserting herself between them could be deemed rude, Jaune did it first and she didn't invade personal space to do it.
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    Let's revisit that scene: Jaune leans forward, Weiss says that's far enough, Jaune straightens up, and Pyrrha spears him. That was the end of their conversation. So the rest of the scene actually preceded Weiss's injunction, and Weiss did not in fact need to do anything else.

    Also, Weiss was not talking to Pyrrha when Jaune appeared, as she had zoned out, so I would not say he pushed himself between them. And after all, Weiss was chasing Pyrrha who's chasing Jaune who's chasing Weiss...

    As for Weiss, how is literally moving in between Pyrrha and Jaune and shoving them apart not getting into personal space?

    He's still bothering her in class, and how cordial he is is irrelevant after her's, according to Yang's statement' tried and been turned down multiple times. No means no. Honestly I'd be staring at the clock begging for it to be over if Jaune was asking me on a date for the xth time.
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    Weiss was counting seconds long before Jaune entered the frame.

    We don't know how many time Weiss has shot him down, but it can't be too high, since it seems Jaune waits until he has an entirely new gambit before he makes another attempt.

    He is bothering her in her place of residence in a loud and disruptive manner and lying while doing so just to get face time with her. Who is Kant?
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    Weiss's dorm room is across the hall from Jayne's. It's not weird for him to know where she lives.

    As for the song, it wasn't exactly a long serenade. He knocked, he talked, he left. His singing voice may have committed crimes against our ears, but he's not guilty of criminal transgression.

    Kant is a philosopher famous for his deontological ethics, including the concept of the categorical imperative. Kant believed categorical imperatives must be obeyed absolutely, for example the duty not to lie: whether minor or major and regardless of circumstances (even to save a life) one must never lie.

    Thing is, she should only have to turn him down once for him to stop forcing himself into her life and space and asking her out, she shouldn't have to sit him down and explain in fine detail why constantly barraging her for dates is rude, or disrespectful, he should grasp that if he doesn't want to be seen as a jerk.
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    There's no defending Jaume's tact, or lack thereof. But disgruntlement with the screentime Jaune takes up is distorting moral judgments. His actions are hardly more outrageous than the exaggerated behaviors of other fictional characters. Jaune is not a stalker or some other type of sexual predator: he's a kid who's annoying, naïve, and maybe just a bit lacking in intellect.
     
    mysterius said:
    Let's revisit that scene: Jaune leans forward, Weiss says that's far enough, Jaune straightens up, and Pyrrha spears him. That was the end of their conversation. So the rest of the scene actually preceded Weiss's injunction, and Weiss did not in fact need to do anything else.
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    He was leaning back not because she asked him to but because his body was in motion as they were speaking, so I'll admit he was less in her face but he wasn't listening to her when she spoke nor did his expression imply he understood he was bothering her or that if he did realize it that he cared. He just kept smirking.

    mysterius said:
    Also, Weiss was not talking to Pyrrha when Jaune appeared, as she had zoned out, so I would not say he pushed himself between them. And after all, Weiss was chasing Pyrrha who's chasing Jaune who's chasing Weiss...

    As for Weiss, how is literally moving in between Pyrrha and Jaune and shoving them apart not getting into personal space?
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    She'd zoned out but Jaune had no way of knowing that. Besides while Weiss was 'chasing' Pyrrha there wasn't anything flirtatious about it, not was she pushy.

    Mostly the context, at least in my mind.

    mysterius said:
    Weiss was counting seconds long before Jaune entered the frame.

    We don't know how many time Weiss has shot him down, but it can't be too high, since it seems Jaune waits until he has an entirely new gambit before he makes another attempt.
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    It's still bothering her in class regardless of what she was doing at the time.

    The only context we have for the new gambit idea was the song, and given Weiss's response I wouldn't be surprised if he'd tried that before. Besides that Yang's dialogue implied he'd asked numerous times.

    mysterius said:
    Weiss's dorm room is across the hall from Jayne's. It's not weird for him to know where she lives.

    As for the song, it wasn't exactly a long serenade. He knocked, he talked, he left. His singing voice may have committed crimes against our ears, but he's not guilty of criminal transgression.

    Kant is a philosopher famous for his deontological ethics, including the concept of the categorical imperative. Kant believed categorical imperatives must be obeyed absolutely, for example the duty not to lie: whether minor or major and regardless of circumstances (even to save a life) one must never lie.
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    I didn't say it was weird to know where she lived, I just think it's rude to bother someone in a loud disruptive manner at their door after promising not to do so.

    When did I say criminal? I said he was being disrespectful to her opinions and feelings by blatantly ignoring them,not that he'd committed a crime. Though honestly if someone hounded me as he did I'd have lawyers on them the moment they were at my door.

    I see, thanks for the info.

    mysterius said:
    There's no defending Jaume's tact, or lack thereof. But disgruntlement with the screentime Jaune takes up is distorting moral judgments. His actions are hardly more outrageous than the exaggerated behaviors of other fictional characters. Jaune is not a stalker or some other type of sexual predator: he's a kid who's annoying, naïve, and maybe just a bit lacking in intellect.
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    I didn't call him a predator, though it was borderline stalking in terms of actual behaviour with the implied numerous "courting" attempts and just how plainly sick to death of it Weiss was. Being a fictional character doesn't free his actions from being observed or judged based on how they seem to the individual. Plus other fictional characters aren't great to judge against, a comedy series falls under different standards than a nominally serious show, vs a gritty crime drama ETC, in most shows I'd deem Homer a monster for how he treats Bart but due to the Simpsons comedic nature, the status quo and the fact practically now one takes it seriously, even the participants allows me to not be angered or disturbed by it. RWBY is not a comedy, it has funny moments but it's no an absurd humor series.

    As an aside, to re-explain my argument in the post above yours as I feel it got a little looped: No is one of the first basic concepts we as people tend to learn and become familiar with, it is not remotely complicated and it being to do with dating doesn't somehow make it complicated, if anything it is simpler because it's basically saying do you like me enough to spend time with me in a romantic fashion?" If the answer is no, repeating the quest ad nauseam is not going to change the answer and just makes the person asking seem like a jerk who can't take no for an answer.
     
    Calling what Jaune does unethical or trying to imply some sort of rapeyness to his actions is rather silly. He is at worst socially inept and an annoyance. Well, at worst in regards to that specific angle.

    As some sort of self insert for the watcher it is much worse. People are supposed to connect with this guy but he instantly falls in love with a girl who blatantly hates him telling him to leave her alone. Despite that he only tires harder somehow liking her when we only see her as cold and aloof during this. Is this a thing some people look for? Do people talk with their buddies about how some girl was so hot the way she tried to ignore them and yells at everyone else for any minor complaint? Meanwhile Pyrrha is throwing herself at him to which he is oblivious.

    Pyrrha, who is a warm, nice, strong person is throwing herself at Jaune to no effect. Had this show had a more adult rating when Jaune was pinned to the tree Pyrrha would have shown up half naked and asked Jaune if he wanted the forest to learn his name.

    Being the bungling boob he is Jaune would have responded with something like, "No thanks, I really just wish Weiss knew my name. Also, are you could dressed like that? Did you lose your shirt when you fell? I can help you find it."

    Seriously we are supposed to associate with this guy but despite getting the spotlight so often he does nothing with it. That is a huge complaint of mine. If Jaune did something with the spotlight I could understand it but he is still as boring as ever.

    Pyrrha is warm, interesting, human with strengths, flaws, secrets. She has depth, dedication, and drive. She gets nervous sometimes but always drives for what she wants trying to and actually improving herself. Despite this she fell in love with Jaune, Juane, the fan joke has more depth and character development.

    Jaune has been in the spotlight so much but has no depth, he lied to get in but that is not exactly some huge secret or an indication of anything except Ozpin does whatever the hell he wants. He has a big family, his parents were hunters, and he sucks, at almost everything.

    Somehow Pyrrha could not find anyone else who would love her for who she is so she settled for a guy who does not love her at all, Jaune.

    The guy with the personality of a brick, the intelligence of a brick, and the physical characteristics of a brick.

    This is the guy we are supposed to have things in common with. I associate more with literally everyone else. Nora and Ren have a healthy interdependent supporting relationship like an actual couple. Ruby never had many friends, lost her mother at a young age, and threw herself into her passion, weaponsmithing and hunting. It is not her whole life but it is her driving force, she has other goals in life and questions she wants answered but for now her life is focused on improving martial prowess. There will come a time in her life when she will have a choice to continue down this road and lock other humans out to allow her to focus everything on her guns, effectively becoming a hermit, or to expand herself and her life to continue down the road of life as a person with her family and friends. Yang is driven by her past, something she can not get rid of despite all her efforts. Her mother, her mistakes, her mother's mistakes and how they reflect on her are the shadow in which she lives her life. She cannot shake it, it consumes her and at every opportunity she will drive to resolve it. Fortunately for her she has already learned that is not the entirety of her life. She has friends, has fun, and lives life to enjoy it, she wants to resolve her past but knows what is more important. Blake is troubled and disenfranchised. She wants to make the world better but has seen so much she wonders how she can. She wants a fairytale ending in her life, death holds no fear for her, only failure does. If she fails in anything people get hurt, die, or worse, become her. She is still young but started early learning fast how terrible the world can be, what drives people, and what happens when you try to change it. She is lost while looking for something without ever thinking to search for herself. Weiss is afraid, it defines her and consumes her. She closes off everything and everyone, pushes everyone away. She has drive and pushes herself, she needs others though but does not want to. Even her semblance shows she needs others but she hates this, almost as much as she hates herself.

    Then there is Jaune.
     
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    Conundrum said:
    Calling what Jaune does unethical or trying to imply some sort of rapeyness to his actions is rather silly. He is at worst socially inept and an annoyance. Well, at worst in regards to that specific angle.
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    Can people please stop saying this is what I do? I said I think he's inconsiderate and disrespectful for being unwilling to take no for an answer when it's not a complicated idea to deal with even for socially inept and frankly, while awkward he's not that bad at anything else social so that's hardly an excuse.

    Conundrum said:
    Despite that he only triea harder somehow liking her when we only see her as cold and aloof during this. Is this a thing some people look for?
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    I don't see Weiss and cold and aloof I see her as frustrated and worn out with a pushy suitor.

    I know a oneshot that probably covers this a bit better than I can.

    Conundrum said:
    This is the guy we are supposed to have things in common with. I associate more with literally everyone else. Nora and Ren have a healthy interdependent supporting relationship like an actual couple. Ruby never had many friends, lost her mother at a young age, and threw herself into her passion, guns. It is not her whole life but it is her driving force, she has other goals in life and questions she wants answered but for now her life is focused on improving martial prowess. There will come a time in her life when she will have a choice to continue down this road and lock other humans out to allow her to focus everything on her guns, effectively becoming a hermit, or to expand herself and her life to continue down the road of life as an one person with her family and friends. Yang is driven by her past, something she can not get rid of despite all her efforts. Her mother, her mistakes, her mother's mistakes and how they reflect on her are the shadow in which she lives her life. She cannot shake it, it consumes her and at every opportunity she will drive to resolve it. Fortunately for her she has already learned that is not the entirety of her life. She has friends, has fun, and lives life to enjoy it, she wants to resolve her past but knows what is more important. Blake is troubled and disenfranchised. She wants to make the world better but has seen so much she wonders how she can. She wants a fairytale ending in her life, death holds no fear for her, only failure does. If she fails in anything people get hurt, die, or worse, become her. She is still young but started early learning fast how terrible the world can be, what drives people, and what happens when you try to change it. She is lost while looking for something without ever thinking to search for herself. Weiss is afraid, it defines her and consumes her. She closes off everything and everyone, pushes everyone away. She has drive and pushes herself, she needs others though but does not want to. Even her semblance shows she needs others but she hates this, almost as much as she hates herself.
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    This however, was brilliant, insightful and awesome to read on so many levels.
     
    Conundrum said:
    The guy with the personality of a brick, the intelligence of a brick, and the physical characteristics of a brick.

    This is the guy we are supposed to have things in common with. I associate more with literally everyone else. Nora and Ren have a healthy interdependent supporting relationship like an actual couple. Ruby never had many friends, lost her mother at a young age, and threw herself into her passion, weaponsmithing and hunting. It is not her whole life but it is her driving force, she has other goals in life and questions she wants answered but for now her life is focused on improving martial prowess. There will come a time in her life when she will have a choice to continue down this road and lock other humans out to allow her to focus everything on her guns, effectively becoming a hermit, or to expand herself and her life to continue down the road of life as a person with her family and friends. Yang is driven by her past, something she can not get rid of despite all her efforts. Her mother, her mistakes, her mother's mistakes and how they reflect on her are the shadow in which she lives her life. She cannot shake it, it consumes her and at every opportunity she will drive to resolve it. Fortunately for her she has already learned that is not the entirety of her life. She has friends, has fun, and lives life to enjoy it, she wants to resolve her past but knows what is more important. Blake is troubled and disenfranchised. She wants to make the world better but has seen so much she wonders how she can. She wants a fairytale ending in her life, death holds no fear for her, only failure does. If she fails in anything people get hurt, die, or worse, become her. She is still young but started early learning fast how terrible the world can be, what drives people, and what happens when you try to change it. She is lost while looking for something without ever thinking to search for herself. Weiss is afraid, it defines her and consumes her. She closes off everything and everyone, pushes everyone away. She has drive and pushes herself, she needs others though but does not want to. Even her semblance shows she needs others but she hates this, almost as much as she hates herself.

    Then there is Jaune.
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    Maybe Jaune was first designed as a pure audience surrogate, an animated version of the blank protagonist of many RPGs that you mold by your actions and dialog choices. That way RT could use him as a gateway for the audience to learn about some lore of Remnant.
    But now with season 2 that role seems to be over, if RT making the "World of Remnant" instead of having Jaune being the eternally clueless guy for whom everything must be explained is any indication, so now it's time for him to become a "real" character with his own motivations, backstory and everything that fleshes out a character, which I hope the next seasons will take care of, by focusing on his job as team leader for example. Without taking too much screentime from the members of team RWBY please. :D


    Zam said:
    Can people please stop saying this is what I do? I said I think he's inconsiderate and disrespectful for being unwilling to take no for an answer when it's not a complicated idea to deal with even for socially inept and frankly, while awkward he's not that bad at anything else social so that's hardly an excuse.
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    That Jaune's behavior is wrong and that he should learn to get the (obvious) clue that Weiss is simply not interested seems to be a point of agreement between everyone here.
    And I think the show acknowledges this by presenting his attempts as tiring, as funny as his attempts at courting Weiss are.

    I think that two things important to take in account is that first, Jaune is a teenager, and that teens and correct social behavior tends to not mix well, and secondly that we're still at the beginning of the overall RWBY, I'm sure that the "Jaune problem" will be addressed in the following seasons with the character development that goes with it and that when Jaune will look back at his behavior in his first year at Beacon, he'll say "man, what a clueless jerk I was back then".
     
    ElMariachi said:
    That Jaune's behavior is wrong and that he should learn to get the (obvious) clue that Weiss is simply not interested seems to be a point of agreement between everyone here.
    And I think the show acknowledges this by presenting his attempts as tiring, as funny as his attempts at courting Weiss are.
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    Maybe. Sorry just frustrated.
    I suppose I can't find them funny for various reasons so the attempt falls flat and instead it looks, not like it;s defending it but not criticizing it either.

    ElMariachi said:
    I think that two things important to take in account is that first, Jaune is a teenager, and that teens and correct social behavior tends to not mix well, and secondly that we're still at the beginning of the overall RWBY, I'm sure that the "Jaune problem" will be addressed in the following seasons with the character development that goes with it and that when Jaune will look back at his behavior in his first year at Beacon, he'll say "man, what a clueless jerk I was back then".
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    Perhaps it will, I'm not so sure, the handling of Jaune in more or less everything he's present in has been a consistent bugbear of RWBY for me, I like more or less everything else except those aspects and haven't seen much indication of change or awareness about such things, but maybe I'm just paranoid/cynical.
     
    Zam said:
    I don't see Weiss and cold and aloof I see her as frustrated and worn out with a pushy suitor.

    I know a oneshot that probably covers this a bit better than I can.


    This however, was brilliant, insightful and awesome to read on so many levels.
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    I see her as cold and aloof but not because of Jaune. Before she meets him she does not really want to deal with people. Jaune makes this worse by being overbearing and unable to read people, he is the worst kind of person for her to even be around. Weiss has her internal demons and wants to be left alone to deal with those. (I had to rewrite this like 5 times because I kept going off on tangents about how Weiss x Jaune us dumb and how defeating her in a fight would not make her love Jaune but instead hate herself more. The only way for them to end up together and with someone so clingy and overbearing would mean her pride had been crushed and would basically be acting like a demure housewife while chastising herself as a failure and I am doing it again.)


    Also, thank you.
     
    Conundrum said:
    I see her as cold and aloof but not because of Jaune. Before she meets him she does not really want to deal with people. Jaune makes this worse by being overbearing and unable to read people, he is the worst kind of person for her to even be around. Weiss has her internal demons and wants to be left alone to deal with those. (I had to rewrite this like 5 times because I kept going off on tangents about how Weiss x Jaune us dumb and how defeating her in a fight would not make her love Jaune but instead hate herself more. The only way for them to end up together and with someone so clingy and overbearing would mean her pride had been crushed and would basically be acting like a demure housewife while chastising herself as a failure and I am doing it again.)


    Also, thank you.
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    Interesting points, however she does get along with Ruby, after some time, but they are rather different kinds of socially awkward and Ruby adjusted her behaviour pretty quick.

    Also that got really depressing at the end there... I feel kind of sad and cold inside now. Also horrified. Like, a lot.
     
    Zam said:
    Interesting points, however she does get along with Ruby, after some time, but they are rather different kinds of socially awkward and Ruby adjusted her behaviour pretty quick.
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    Ruby also has the advantage of actually being a very competent fighter and good team leader, which probably greatly helped her in getting in Weiss' graces.
    The fact she doesn't want to get in Weiss' pants (despite what White Rose shippers could think) probably helps a lot too! :D


    Zam said:
    Also that got really depressing at the end there... I feel kind of sad and cold inside now. Also horrified. Like, a lot.
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    Nah don't worry, you have your own opinions, it's actually more interesting to debate among people of different opinions than people who all agree on everything. ;)

    Unless that wasn't what you meant?
     
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