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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • As for me, I'm fine with Bumbleby, but I'd love to see a deep friendship that DIDN'T turn romantic.

    I don't (and can't) know what other stories everyone else is following, but in the stories I consumed, I can't recall a relationship in as mutually vulnerable and supportive as Bumbleby NOT becoming romantic.

    Someone over at SpaceBattles suggested Naruto and Sasuke, and I wanted to laugh. Sasuke was an asshole who started multiple fights with Naruto with the full intent to kill him. That's not "mutually supportive and vulnerable".

    I can't swing a stick through my library without hitting a surrogate father/son pair of mentor and student, but the kind of "brothers from other mothers / sisters from different misters" found-family relationships are harder to find.

    Related to all of this, I REALLY would like to see some interactions between Ruby and Blake. I don't care if those interactions are all about how Ruby feels about Blake starting a relationship with Yang, because even that would involve grappling with the idea of the two of them becoming sisters-in-law.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    Sasuke was an asshole who started multiple fights with Naruto with the full intent to kill him
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    ....What? There's one canonical instance wherein Sasuke went out of his way to start a fight with Naruto with the full intent to kill him. The last fight they had at the Valley of the End.

    Sunder the Gold said:
    Related to all of this, I REALLY would like to see some interactions between Ruby and Blake. I don't care if those interactions are all about how Ruby feels about Blake starting a relationship with Yang, because even that would involve grappling with the idea of the two of them becoming sisters-in-law.
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    Now this? This is something I can agree on. Have they ever really interacted with each for a prolonged period of time without someone else being there. The only thing that comes to my mind is the one scene in Vol 1. when Ruby tries to start up a conversation with Blake about the book she was reading.
     
    Zam said:
    Also given some of the rage against BB, I would say homophobia does indeed play a part at times, just that some are careful not to let it show, either due to it being an unconscious bias or them knowing open bigotry isn't quite as embraced in many areas as it used to be.
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    There were plenty of reasons beyond just "HoMoPhObIa!", you know.

    Black Sun shippers felt disappointed, people thought it was rushed or vaguely played up, things like that.
     
    My only issue with Volume 6 was the arc they chose for Adam given his full design. Rather than being an abusive ex-boyfriend sh*theel, he should have been a pyschotic terrorist abusive ex-boyfriend sh*theel, who couldn't contend with the idea of humans having any power over him ever again. His hatred of Blake being directed at leaving him and her relationship with Weiss, rather than just leaving him.

    It would have really helped build up the issue that the discrimination is building up, especially given Illia's reasoning for joining the white fang prior to the team heading for Atlas. One were part of the team most closely related to that particular plotline know the consequences of the societal attitudes the Atlas has, and how this influences want to interact with them. I.e. whether they're willing to go with the flow to get what they need, or they'll rock the boat to stop injustice.

    Instead we got a romance focused arc were Blake moves past an old relationship onto a potential new one, and the character that could have been the best example of what kind of people unchecked discrimination produces instead just being an abusive ex. The facial scaring seems almost incidental, and now that he's dead, were unlikely to see what it means about the SDC labour policies.

    I'm really hoping they don't shove the whole faunus discrimination thing onto the back burner now that the white fang are 'good' again, and any character that proposed any kind of violance is dead or reformed. Especially now that they are heading to the place where branding peoples faces is apparently a thing, and that tragedies that kill hundreds due to poor maintenance are a funny joke between high-schoolers.
     
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    SpeckofStardust said:
    eh Your forgetting right after Danzo.
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    Sasuke had just killed Danzo before Sakura showed up and tried to kill him. Then Kakashi showed up and they skirmished for a while. Then Naruto showed up and they talked a bit before having a Rasengan/Chidori clash. Then Obito teleports them out of there. That isn't starting a fight with full intent to kill.

    Psyga315 said:
    Black Sun shippers felt disappointed, people thought it was rushed or vaguely played up, things like that.
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    I-Is it bad that I'm still holding out for a Ménage à Trois?

    Eos_Astraeus said:
    The facial scaring seems almost incidental
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    I think I saw someone say that his scar was irrelevant because it was something he was using to guilt trip Blake and it raised my hackles a bit. There are a multitude of ways for him to guilt trip Blake that aren't blatantly hinting at faunus racism still being a major plot point in RWBY. If it really does go nowhere then I'm gonna consider it a good plot hook wasted.
     
    To be honest given how poorly they've handled the whole faunus racism thing in the past I think it might be better if they just ditch the whole plotline now, which is what I assumed they were doing in Volumes 5 & 6 - wrapping up a plotline they've always struggled with handling well (what with almost everyone involved in RWBY's production being well off white people who live in the south). I agree it'll be a waste of a plothook if they don't do anything with it but I think that'd be better than their kinda floppy attempts at doing stuff with it in the past (the only really good example of them handling faunus racism well being Ilia and even then that's pretty debatable).
     
    hellgodsrus said:
    To be honest given how poorly they've handled the whole faunus racism thing in the past I think it might be better if they just ditch the whole plotline now, which is what I assumed they were doing in Volumes 5 & 6 - wrapping up a plotline they've always struggled with handling well (what with almost everyone involved in RWBY's production being well off white people who live in the south). I agree it'll be a waste of a plothook if they don't do anything with it but I think that'd be better than their kinda floppy attempts at doing stuff with it in the past (the only really good example of them handling faunus racism well being Ilia and even then that's pretty debatable).
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    I don't think they can just ignore it given the set up they've done re: SDC and the Faunus
     
    Jcogginsa said:
    I don't think they can just ignore it given the set up they've done re: SDC and the Faunus
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    Maybe. But I don't think they'll do much with it. Or if they do it'll be a mess - because as I said, they've sucked at handling this in the past - or their asshole fans will screech once again about how RWBY has been ruined by the 'ESS JAY DUBYAS' ruining 'MONTY'S VISION'. Or if we're really unlucky, both.
     
    Eos_Astraeus said:
    My only issue with Volume 6 was the arc they chose for Adam given his full design. Rather than being an abusive ex-boyfriend sh*theel, he should have been a pyschotic terrorist abusive ex-boyfriend sh*theel, who couldn't contend with the idea of humans having any power over him ever again. His hatred of Blake being directed at leaving him and her relationship with Weiss, rather than just leaving him.

    It would have really helped build up the issue that the discrimination is building up, especially given Illia's reasoning for joining the white fang prior to the team heading for Atlas. One were part of the team most closely related to that particular plotline know the consequences of the societal attitudes the Atlas has, and how this influences want to interact with them. I.e. whether they're willing to go with the flow to get what they need, or they'll rock the boat to stop injustice.

    Instead we got a romance focused arc were Blake moves past an old relationship onto a potential new one, and the character that could have been the best example of what kind of people unchecked discrimination produces instead just being an abusive ex. The facial scaring seems almost incidental, and now that he's dead, were unlikely to see what it means about the SDC labour policies.

    I'm really hoping they don't shove the whole faunus discrimination thing onto the back burner now that the white fang are 'good' again, and any character that proposed any kind of violance is dead or reformed. Especially now that they are heading to the place where branding peoples faces is apparently a thing, and that tragedies that kill hundreds due to poor maintenance are a funny joke between high-schoolers.
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    Yeah, it definitely reads more like one of those early Card Captor Sakura or Sailor Moon fanfics. The one where you had Syaoran or Darien be the abusive boyfriend and Sakura/Usagi can only be saved by their wan twu wub.
    hellgodsrus said:
    To be honest given how poorly they've handled the whole faunus racism thing in the past I think it might be better if they just ditch the whole plotline now, which is what I assumed they were doing in Volumes 5 & 6 - wrapping up a plotline they've always struggled with handling well (what with almost everyone involved in RWBY's production being well off white people who live in the south). I agree it'll be a waste of a plothook if they don't do anything with it but I think that'd be better than their kinda floppy attempts at doing stuff with it in the past (the only really good example of them handling faunus racism well being Ilia and even then that's pretty debatable).
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    The problem is that they went in so deep with the plot line and hammering how this one kingdom everyone's going to is the most racist in the world that people will cry foul if it's suddenly dropped. Hell, people cried foul when the worst we got out of Mistral's racism was the equivalent of a "no dogs allowed" sign.

    It's sad that Shield Hero does a better discrimination plot of humans with animal ears and that was even less of a focus than in RWBY!
     
    Honestly Adam's never been a part of the Faunus racism plot, it's why he wasn't fucking there for any of it save the fall of Beacon and Haven. Adam's scar is more there to highlight how far he's fallen considering he's more mad at Blake for dumping him than he is at the people who literally maimed him.
     
    Gh055twr1t3r said:
    I-Is it bad that I'm still holding out for a Ménage à Trois?
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    I think it is not-impossible.


    I see absolutely nothing wrong with Adam being someone who went from abuse-victim to abuser, oppressed to oppressor. It's a valuable reminder that no one is justified in being an asshat, no matter what excuse they think they have. "Cool motive; still murder."

    Rooster Teeth might have handled Remnant's subplot better, but I think they handled it well enough. Why ask to wallow in examples of bigotry? Is it really so hard to take the show's word for it? People who spend so much energy demanding more examples of racism apparently spend enough time thinking about it that they shouldn't need help believing in it, and honestly, I think they should spend time thinking of happier, healthier things.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    Yeah, it definitely reads more like one of those early Card Captor Sakura or Sailor Moon fanfics. The one where you had Syaoran or Darien be the abusive boyfriend and Sakura/Usagi can only be saved by their wan twu wub.

    The problem is that they went in so deep with the plot line and hammering how this one kingdom everyone's going to is the most racist in the world that people will cry foul if it's suddenly dropped. Hell, people cried foul when the worst we got out of Mistral's racism was the equivalent of a "no dogs allowed" sign.

    It's sad that Shield Hero does a better discrimination plot of humans with animal ears and that was even less of a focus than in RWBY!
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    Buddy, Shield Hero literally has a racoon girl talk about how great it is to be a slave and show how great slavery is.

    Nothing is worse than Shield Hero. At anything. The fact that you say so highlights just how little you actually pay attention to RWBY.
     
    Personally, I never saw Black Sun as a real possibility. Sun as a character is fine, but ultimately he has different sorts of character bonding moments with Blake. He and Yang are similar (blond, ripped, loud and friendly), but ultimately more different than people realize. Sun is kinda thoughtless in how he interacts with Blake, and she has to explain some things to him because he straight-up doesn't get it. He followed Blake to Menagerie because he saw a friend putting herself in a scary situation and obviously you should help out friends whenever they're in trouble. He definitely meant well, but I don't think he understood why Blake would want to run away from those she cared for.

    And you're not going to catch me defending RWBY's handling of faunus discrimination as more than a fantasy racism plot, but Adam's character is solid in execution. It's clear to me he was always designed as a villain. His design deliberately evokes the antagonistic forces of Beauty and the Beast - the wilting rose that represents a curse; Gaston, the swaggering, violent man that wants the girl's affections without actually caring what she wants; and the worst aspects of Beast/Prince Adam, someone selfish and without love in his heart.

    People got the wrong impression of him because he had so much focus in the Black trailer, and because Blake deliberately doesn't talk about him except in bits and pieces during the Vale arc. They thought he was going to be a troubled, sympathetic but morally-grey character, because honestly, who here thought RT was going to have the balls to go 'nah, he's an abusive ex and an all-around terrible person' in their anime fight show? I certainly didn't.
     
    Parabola said:
    Personally, I never saw Black Sun as a real possibility. Sun as a character is fine, but ultimately he has different sorts of character bonding moments with Blake. He and Yang are similar (blond, ripped, loud and friendly), but ultimately more different than people realize. Sun is kinda thoughtless in how he interacts with Blake, and she has to explain some things to him because he straight-up doesn't get it. He followed Blake to Menagerie because he saw a friend putting herself in a scary situation and obviously you should help out friends whenever they're in trouble. He definitely meant well, but I don't think he understood why Blake would want to run away from those she cared for.

    And you're not going to catch me defending RWBY's handling of faunus discrimination as more than a fantasy racism plot, but Adam's character is solid in execution. It's clear to me he was always designed as a villain. His design deliberately evokes the antagonistic forces of Beauty and the Beast - the wilting rose that represents a curse; Gaston, the swaggering, violent man that wants the girl's affections without actually caring what she wants; and the worst aspects of Beast/Prince Adam, someone selfish and without love in his heart.

    People got the wrong impression of him because he had so much focus in the Black trailer, and because Blake deliberately doesn't talk about him except in bits and pieces during the Vale arc. They thought he was going to be a troubled, sympathetic but morally-grey character, because honestly, who here thought RT was going to have the balls to go 'nah, he's an abusive ex and an all-around terrible person' in their anime fight show? I certainly didn't.
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    Just want to say yes, yes, yes, 9000% this. Adam is clearly a villain, and was always intended as such, and it's only the fact that Volume 1 and 2 are kind of a mess that ever led anyone to believe otherwise.
     
    hellgodsrus said:
    Buddy, Shield Hero literally has a racoon girl talk about how great it is to be a slave and show how great slavery is.
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    Isn't that because of her specific situation, where she would actually have LESS legal protection from anti-beastperson bigotry if she weren't the legal property of the Shield Hero?


    Parabola said:
    Sun is kinda thoughtless in how he interacts with Blake
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    So?

    Do you think he would somehow be more thoughtful with anyone else? I'm not sure how that's possible.

    If Sun needs to be more thoughtful to have a romantic relationship, then he's doomed to be single.


    Adam's character is solid in execution. It's clear to me he was always designed as a villain. His design deliberately evokes the antagonistic forces of Beauty and the Beast - the wilting rose that represents a curse; Gaston, the swaggering, violent man that wants the girl's affections without actually caring what she wants; and the worst aspects of Beast/Prince Adam, someone selfish and without love in his heart.

    People got the wrong impression of him because he had so much focus in the Black trailer, and because Blake deliberately doesn't talk about him except in bits and pieces during the Vale arc. They thought he was going to be a troubled, sympathetic but morally-grey character, because honestly, who here thought RT was going to have the balls to go 'nah, he's an abusive ex and an all-around terrible person' in their anime fight show? I certainly didn't.
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    Agreed.
     
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    Sunder the Gold said:
    Isn't that because of her specific situation, where she would actually have LESS legal protection from anti-beastperson bigotry if she weren't the legal property of the Shield Hero?
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    Slavery in Shield Hero is simultaneously illegal and legal depending on when it would be most convenient for making the protagonist out to be less terrible than he is. It's illegal when the one-note antagonists forcefully try to free Raphtalia! How dare they try to use the law to... free a girl from slavery? And it's legal when he needs to justify his slaves to the other, no-good, incompetent heroes - don't you know, guys? Non-enslaved beast-persons have less rights when they aren't slaves! So it's totally a good thing that I... have slaves?

    It's the pinnacle of doublethink necessary to make its narrative work.

    Sunder the Gold said:
    Do you think he would somehow be more thoughtful with anyone else? I'm sure how that's possible.

    If Sun needs to be more thoughtful to have a romantic relationship, then he's doomed to be single.
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    I think he would have needed to be more thoughtful to be in a relationship with Blake specifically. To be together as romantic equals, to understand each other's needs and wants. Yang consistently respects Blake's boundaries while also trying to get her out of her shell; she understands that Blake has issues getting close to people, so she tries to help her at her own pace. I think if Sun had been the one to try to get Blake to stop worrying about chasing Roman, back in volume 2, it wouldn't have worked, because he wouldn't know how to really reassure her.

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying Sun isn't good friends with Blake, but it's a different sort of relationship altogether.
     
    Parabola said:
    They thought he was going to be a troubled, sympathetic but morally-grey character, because honestly, who here thought RT was going to have the balls to go 'nah, he's an abusive ex and an all-around terrible person' in their anime fight show? I certainly didn't.
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    When I saw what they went with, I just laughed

    Of all the things RT could've gone with, that's the route they chose

    It's Lifetime movie tier and it's fucking hilarious
     
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    White Wraith said:
    It's Lifetime movie tier and it's fucking hilarious
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    Not really? The thing about Lifetime movies, and I've actually watched a couple in my time, is that the mindset of the antagonist isn't grounded in reality; the villain isn't understandable or human, he's basically a Dark Agent of the Plot who does evil things because they're evil. It's safe viewing, where the audience is incredibly distanced from the villain because there isn't much there that resembles an actual person.

    Adam is an entitled manchild who only cares about himself and views other people as possessions, but that isn't particularly unrealistic; just the opposite honestly. I'm sure I know people that have had people like Adam in their lives. Hell, the fact that he has stans in the first place indicates that RT has tapped into sometihng in the human psyche that does exist in reality, beause you have people openly relating with him in some capacity even though the show didn't exactly hide the fact that he's a villain. He's dramatized and clearly shown to be in the wrong, but he isn't the 1-dimensional blob of melodrama you expect out of a Lifetime villain; there is something there that resonates with people, either in their distaste for him or actually seeing something there to grab onto.
     
    Broken Base said:
    He's dramatized and clearly shown to be in the wrong, but he isn't the 1-dimensional blob of melodrama you expect out of a Lifetime villain; there is something there that resonates with people, either in their distaste for him or actually seeing something there to grab onto.
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    I see what you're saying, but I just couldn't at all take him seriously

    When he took off the mask and showed his scar, all I could think was either the SDC is stupidly cartoonishly evil to the point of comedy, or Adam was just a dumbass who ran face first into an insignia stamping machine. Both are pretty plausible from where I'm standing

    His line about Blake hurting him more than the brand didn't really help
     
    About Adam and the White Fang I can just say this. On how I would do both.
    Show Faunus Racism beyond Cardin.

    Also make Adam a Hitleresque figure instead of a damm stupid yandere ex boyfriend. If he ever dated Blake he wouldn't be abusive. Instead they would break because of ideological differences, not because 'abuse'.

    He is angry at Blake not because she abandoned or left him, but because at his eyes she abandoned the Faunus cause and is a traitor to her own race. The fact she is daughter of one of founders make it worse. Principally because she knows what the SDC does with Faunus. Made ten times worse because Blake is friends with a Schnee.

    So yeah.
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    Teen Spirit said:
    Honestly Adam's never been a part of the Faunus racism plot, it's why he wasn't fucking there for any of it save the fall of Beacon and Haven. Adam's scar is more there to highlight how far he's fallen considering he's more mad at Blake for dumping him than he is at the people who literally maimed him.
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    Can you blame anyone for thinking otherwise when he's a member of the White Fang and is a significant character for Blake? His lack of presence until the Fall of Beacon could have been easily attributed to RT setting him up for a big boss villain moment. That moment happened but it went in a direction some of us weren't expecting. This is one of those things where expectations and past experiences can affect how you think a story is going to go as @Parabola pointed out.

    For the record, I wanted Adam to be the morally-grey revolutionist who started out as naive and hopeful but became jaded and nihilistic as things went on before he fully gave in and became completely cynical. In this hypothetical alternate universe, he's given up all hope of a peaceful resolution. He still dies in this alternate universe because not everyone needs to be redeemed and sometimes people just don't change.

    Why would I want a character that's been done before? Because I like that trope. A lot. I don't think what RT did was wrong, it was just different from what I was expecting and that's fine. I still really wish his design, weapon, and semblance wasn't so cool. I guess this is what AU fanfics are for.

    Fuck Adam stans who defend his bullshit after everything that's happened in canon though. AU's you come up with are fine, but any ambiguity of where he stood on Faunus rights was obliterated when he killed everyone at the base and said that Blake leaving him hurt more than the brand.
     
    Adam never gave a shit about the Faunus or White Fang's cause, literally everything is about him trying to garner power and fame for himself while satiating his murder boner and massive entitlement complex regarding Blake and he works perfectly as her and Yang's villain.

    EDIT: For example, if he'd ever cared about the cause, he wouldn't have tried to blow up a train full of useful resources just for a laugh.
     
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