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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Renewal said:
    That's a horrendously reductive take. The reason LGBT issues are brought up so often with RWBY is because the fandom was interested in gay pairings, and then the creators actively engaged with the idea and promised representation. Like, I'm still a fan of the show and enjoyed V6, but there were massive missteps regarding LGBT representation for years until relatively recently.
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    I agree, but framing the use of "Ozma" as a man's name as one of those missteps (which is what prompted MinorGryph's comment) is excessively petty.
     
    MinorGryph said:
    TIL action-adventure series should actually be centered around issues of gender and sexuality or else they're inherently being anti-LGBT.
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    The funny thing is the vast majority of the vocal hatedom at the moment are hating on the show for "pandering" with "forced" representation for gay people and for "ruining" a gaslighting abuser by putting the spotlight on his victims and giving them an empowering tale of overcoming their trauma (oh and they're also murderers for killing a "defenseless" man who was going for a weapon after refusing several offers to just walk away and attempting to murder them dozens of times).

    Meanwhile this thread be like "RWBY hates LGTB people because the two main characters who are gay and clearly confirmed to be entering a relationship haven't kissed yet and also the happily married gay couple who have a child together and the gay girl who is a walking middle finger to the Psycho Lesbian trope aren't main characters."
     
    To be fair it's not like RWBY is actually big on romance in general. Despite how popular shipping is the only romances we have are Arkos, which is done, Renora and Bumblebee. And both of those were handled pretty well in my opinion even if Bumblebee's build up was slow and the Animators seem to have some fear of kissing.

    Like, it's not just me right? Jaune and Pyrrha were the only ones who've kissed. Not even freaking married couples have kissed since then.

    Mook said:
    RWBY hates LGTB people because the two main characters who are gay and clearly confirmed to be entering a relationship haven't kissed yet
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    Yeah I'm really disliking people who don't seem to get that you don't need to kiss to be in a relationship. I sure as heck want Yang and Blake to kiss, just as much as I want the same from Ren and Nora. But I don't need that to confirm what the show is blatantly telling us.
     
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    Teen Spirit said:
    To be fair it's not like RWBY is actually big on romance in general. Despite how popular shipping is the only romances we have are Arkos, which is done, Renora and Bumblebee. And both of those were handled pretty well in my opinion even if Bumblebee's build up was slow and the Animators seem to have some fear of kissing.

    Like, it's not just me right? Jaune and Pyrrha were the only ones who've kissed. Not even freaking married couples have kissed since then.
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    Yeah this basically. Ren and Nora were basically confirmed to be a couple in volume 4 but aside from a single shot from the volume 6 opening and Nora's "get back here with MY MAN!" line not much has been done with it yet. Then again they're also pretty minor characters to be honest. And they were already so close before getting together that it's easy to imagine that not much would change in practical terms, especially when traveling in such a big group with so little privacy.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    To be fair it's not like RWBY is actually big on romance in general. Despite how popular shipping is the only romances we have are Arkos, which is done, Renora and Bumblebee. And both of those were handled pretty well in my opinion even if Bumblebee's build up was slow and the Animators seem to have some fear of kissing.

    Like, it's not just me right? Jaune and Pyrrha were the only ones who've kissed. Not even freaking married couples have kissed since then.
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    And Jaune and Pyrrah only kissed so she could distract him and say goodbye before she deliberately went to her death.
     
    Mook said:
    Yeah this basically. Ren and Nora were basically confirmed to be a couple in volume 4 but aside from a single shot from the volume 6 opening and Nora's "get back here with MY MAN!" line not much has been done with it yet. Then again they're also pretty minor characters to be honest. And they were already so close before getting together that it's easy to imagine that not much would change in practical terms, especially when traveling in such a big group with so little privacy.
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    Yeah admittedly with Ren and Nora it wouldn't really change much and the things that it would change they may not feel comfortable expressing when travelling in a big group. And it doesn't help that for like half of Vol 6 they were out of the picture.

    Vol 6's biggest sin was lack of length, that's almost certainly because of how much time and resources the Ozma/Salem story took (Another note, Ozma and Salem canonically had four kids, no kissing shown) and I'm not sure if narratively it would have worked well to cut between the the terror team RWBY was going through and JNR's situation.

    With Blake and Yang though it will change things since it's less confirming what was already there and them finally realizing what they actually feel for each other. Well Blake at least, some Yang's lines in 3 and 5 make me suspect that Yang had some idea she knew what she felt about Blake.

    Mahrac said:
    And Jaune and Pyrrah only kissed so she could distract him and say goodbye before she deliberately went to her death.
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    Yeah. Kissing must be hard as heck to animate or they've just decided the Remnant places much more importance on Handholding then kissing when it comes to romance because RWBY just seems to avoid kissing whenever possible.
     
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    I'll say this: there really haven't been any opportunities for the characters in question to kiss without it seeming either tacked on or just plain weird.

    Blake and Yang literally just killed a guy- that's not romantic, no matter how important and impactful to their relationship it is. And while there may have been some moments where Nora and Ren were able to kiss on screen, I highly doubt any of their limited screen time needed to be used for it, not when holding each other's hands is both easier to animate AND just as meaningful.
     
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    Pretty sure Blake will be Bi, not gay regardless. He interests clearly extend both ways.

    Yang showed interest in boys once, but it was only once so they could go either way.

    Not that it matters because two Bi girls entering a relationship is just as LGBT as two gay ones.

    ALSO NEVERMORE WITH BETTER AUDIO:
     
    JSanders4 said:
    I'll say this: there really haven't been any opportunities for the characters in question to kiss without it seeming either tacked on or just plain weird.

    Blake and Yang literally just killed a guy- that's not romantic, no matter how important and impactful to their relationship it is. And while there may have been some moments where Nora and Ren were able to kiss on screen, I highly doubt any of their limited screen time needed to be used for it, not when holding each other's hands is both easier to animate AND just as meaningful.
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    Reminds me of people complaining about how Chloe and Max only kiss in Life is Strange's finale if Max chooses to save the bay at the cost of chloe's life. That kiss is a goodbye kiss because Max is going to have to watch her girlfriend die, again, and stay dead this time. Chloe and Max kissing if Max chose to not rewind time and just let the Storm happen (Which is something I support since killing Chloe to stop a storm feels massively like throwing a Virgin to the Volcano but that's a different story) would have been really weird considering they're both basically in shock about the decision.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    Reminds me of people complaining about how Chloe and Max only kiss in Life is Strange's finale if Max chooses to save the bay at the cost of chloe's life. That kiss is a goodbye kiss because Max is going to have to watch her girlfriend die, again, and stay dead this time. Chloe and Max kissing if Max chose to not rewind time and just let the Storm happen (Which is something I support since killing Chloe to stop a storm feels massively like throwing a Virgin to the Volcano but that's a different story) would have been really weird considering they're both basically in shock about the decision.
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    Honestly between Bumblebee, LiS, and even LOK failing to seal things with a kiss and just implying kiss will happen later is sort of getting a bit weird though.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Honestly between Bumblebee, LiS, and even LOK failing to seal things with a kiss and just implying kiss will happen later is sort of getting a bit weird though.
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    Ehh most of those situations worked or at least had understandable reasons for why it didn't happen. LOK literally pushed it as far as Nick would let them, LiS didn't exactly shy away from Chloe and Max clearly having a thing for each other. And Bumblebee, again honestly Bumblebee didn't need a kiss to make it very obvious what the two felt for each other. And yes I know some people dispute that but I'm beyond caring.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    Ehh most of those situations worked or at least had understandable reasons for why it didn't happen. LOK literally pushed it as far as Nick would let them, LiS didn't exactly shy away from Chloe and Max clearly having a thing for each other. And Bumblebee, again honestly Bumblebee didn't need a kiss to make it very obvious what the two felt for each other. And yes I know some people dispute that but I'm beyond caring.
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    I understand that. I'm just saying it's a bit weird given the nature of these characters that the situation is set up in such a way of leaving things as implication rather than stated fact. I get the argument that "if they were het this wouldn't be a debate" but at the same time there's the argument of "two girls/guys can be close without it being romantic". Not trying to debate the validity of these relationships, just that it's a noticeable and troubling trend.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    " but at the same time there's the argument of "two girls/guys can be close without it being romantic". Not trying to debate the validity of these relationships, just that it's a noticeable and troubling trend.
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    I'm a big believer in showing two people can be close without it being romantic but Blake and Yang do go over that line where regardless of the genders involved, there's something going on there. But I get your point, hopefully next season will at least involve a date or something.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I understand that. I'm just saying it's a bit weird given the nature of these characters that the situation is set up in such a way of leaving things as implication rather than stated fact. I get the argument that "if they were het this wouldn't be a debate" but at the same time there's the argument of "two girls/guys can be close without it being romantic". Not trying to debate the validity of these relationships, just that it's a noticeable and troubling trend.
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    As pointed out earlier the timing makes it awkward. 5 seconds after you killed your ex by impaling him is not a good time for a first kiss.

    Honestly I suspect that might he part of the reason why Flower Power was confirmed in the way it was, because it sets up a way to know 100% for sure that two people have realized their feelings for each other and have decided to become together-together without needing a kiss to seal the deal. The parallels between Flowers Power and Bumblebee seem to deliberate to be a coincidence.
     
    So someone made an excellent analyse post which highlights Blake having been written as an abuse abuse victim as far back as V2. (Well in truth she was in the trailers but some people are stubborn) by going into the nature of body language and what it means, so I thought I might share it. I am unsure I have the right to link to their blog so this will be a quote:

    (Warning for discussion of physical abuse)
    "Blake exhibits textbook abuse victim behavior. After Yang had just lightly pushed her down onto the desk to show her she's too weak to fight, Blake gets up sees Yang take a step forward and braces her entire body. She pulls her fists up to her stomach and lowers her head preparing to protect her vital organs and her face. She braces her legs by standing with them at shoulder width apart and bending slightly to prepare for any kind of blow that would send her backwards again. If we didn't already have huge amount of evidence that Blake was physically abused by Adam, THIS is it.

    When Yang goes in for a hug instead, the surprise is genuine. This is probably the first real hug Blake has received since she left her parents to join Adam and the White Fang."

     
    Mook said:
    As pointed out earlier the timing makes it awkward. 5 seconds after you killed your ex by impaling him is not a good time for a first kiss.

    Honestly I suspect that might he part of the reason why Flower Power was confirmed in the way it was, because it sets up a way to know 100% for sure that two people have realized their feelings for each other and have decided to become together-together without needing a kiss to seal the deal. The parallels between Flowers Power and Bumblebee seem to deliberate to be a coincidence.
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    The timing makes it incredibly awkward for a kiss. Blake is crying legit two seconds after Adam dies, and needs at least a few minutes to compose herself; a kiss right then would have just been weird and exploitative on Yang's part (thus making her no better than Adam for preying on an obviously vulnerable girl to satisfy her own desires), and Blake was NOT in the right mind for such a gesture. Thus, a hug and some hand holding works perfectly for what RT wants to convey.

    And mind you, this is coming from someone who doesn't even like Bees, and would've had no issue if none of this happened at all.
     
    And again, I ask how a kiss would somehow prove things more than this





    Plus the look Ruby gave Yang that I can't find a good picture for. Like the heck do those pictures not prove that a kiss would?
     
    Just had a thought on Ozpin being male. There is a very good reason why the story couldn't have Ozpin jump between different genders when he reincarnates. It's because a big part of the plot hinges on the fact that his magical power is fading as he gives more and more of it away and that he has no way of taking it back. The Maiden magic can only pass down to young women because Ozpin's previous incarnation gave that part of his power to young women, but if Ozpin himself could switch between genders during his incarnations then they could have just instructed the Maidens to have her in their final thoughts during the incarnations where Oz was a girl.

    During the hundreds/thousands of years since the Maidens were first made it should have been easy for Oz to collect all his magical power back. Suddenly there is no drama around needing to find the Maidens, or finding worthy candidates to pass the powers on to, no problems with Maidens that can't take the pressure and run away, no evil scheme to steal the Maidens powers via a young woman who is fused with Grimm, etc.

    I genuinely do hope that the show will have a explicitly trans character in it at some point (heck when Volume 4 first aired I was hoping the farm kid would be a trans Spring Maiden). But using Oz for it would have a lot of problems, both the unfortunate implications @Mahrac mentioned and because it would raise a bunch of questions about why Oz can't just set themselves up to get their magic back.
     
    Mook said:
    Just had a thought on Ozpin being male. There is a very good reason why the story couldn't have Ozpin jump between different genders when he reincarnates. It's because a big part of the plot hinges on the fact that his magical power is fading as he gives more and more of it away and that he has no way of taking it back. The Maiden magic can only pass down to young women because Ozpin's previous incarnation gave that part of his power to young women, but if Ozpin himself could switch between genders during his incarnations then they could have just instructed the Maidens to have her in their final thoughts during the incarnations where Oz was a girl.

    During the hundreds/thousands of years since the Maidens were first made it should have been easy for Oz to collect all his magical power back. Suddenly there is no drama around needing to find the Maidens, or finding worthy candidates to pass the powers on to, no problems with Maidens that can't take the pressure and run away, no evil scheme to steal the Maidens powers via a young woman who is fused with Grimm, etc.

    I genuinely do hope that the show will have a explicitly trans character in it at some point (heck when Volume 4 first aired I was hoping the farm kid would be a trans Spring Maiden). But using Oz for it would have a lot of problems, both the unfortunate implications @Mahrac mentioned and because it would raise a bunch of questions about why Oz can't just set themselves up to get their magic back.
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    Keep in mind that the reincarnation mechanic was put before he made the Maidens.
     
    Mook said:
    The funny thing is the vast majority of the vocal hatedom at the moment are hating on the show for "pandering" with "forced" representation for gay people and for "ruining" a gaslighting abuser by putting the spotlight on his victims and giving them an empowering tale of overcoming their trauma (oh and they're also murderers for killing a "defenseless" man who was going for a weapon after refusing several offers to just walk away and attempting to murder them dozens of times).
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    Ultimately I think we're gonna get this for a long ass while just because, well, people aren't really sure what a 'normal' level of LGBTQ representation should look like. Which gives cover for people who are actually hostile to it or only want it as an excuse for smut with a greater density of ladies.

    Personally, I'm not hostile to it, and any problems I have with Blake-Yang are problems I have with RWBY's writing of relationships in general. It does feel like they're scrambling to shoe horn in the promised LGBTQ representation. Which is probably true.

    That's not a problem with having it though. It's not that there's too much of it. It's that, as is the case of RWBY's very uneven writing, they're scrambling to play catch up.

    Edit : If anything the major LBGTQ complaint I can think of is that, so far, all of their representation has been either cute bi girls, cute lesbian girls, or cute trans girls.

    If you're gonna do this much representation in short order maybe switch it up a bit.

    . . .

    . . .

    Penny V2 on a male chassis. :V

    Professor Port as a dignified silver fox.
     
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    Triggerhappy said:
    Personally, I'm not hostile to it, and any problems I have with Blake-Yang are problems I have with RWBY's writing of relationships in general. It does feel like they're scrambling to shoe horn in the promised LGBTQ representation. Which is probably true.

    That's not a problem with having it though. It's not that there's too much of it. It's that, as is the case of RWBY's very uneven writing, they're scrambling to play catch up.
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    I don't get that claim. We've had one Married Lesbian Couple and now we have Blake and Yang finally realizing they have feelings for each other. How is that scrambling, or shoe horned?
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    I don't get that claim. We've had one Married Lesbian Couple and now we have Blake and Yang finally realizing they have feelings for each other. How is that scrambling, or shoe horned?
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    I thought Gekko girl was also stated to be a lesbian. And the random background ship's mate was declared trans in a previous season. Which bugs me more for the laziness than anything else.

    Edit : I guess part of it just goes back to the limited screen time of the show too. That always seems to color how I tally up things that are going on.
     
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    Triggerhappy said:
    I thought Gekko girl was also state to be a lesbian. And the random background ship's mate was declared trans in a previous season.
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    Illia's is a lesbian yeah but that's not shoe horned in and background person was something their VA said, I mean buy it sure. Again that's Two couples and two others, six people in six volumes. Not exactly shoe horned or scrambling.
     
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