RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Zam · May 16, 2018

Also she was actually interesting and added a sense of depth and potential grey to the situation as where Adam is, well he's a believably self serving, abusive piece of garbage, but having him be the face of the rebelling against bigotry Faunus, is... uncomfortable.

I still hope she comes back somehow, I have written a fic series built around it

Leingod · May 16, 2018

Honestly? I'm glad they were willing to kill Sienna off about five minutes after introducing her. Not because I didn't like the design or think the character wouldn't be interesting, but because it means they're really and truly breaking away from Monty's bad habit of letting Cool Shit and character designs you really want to use dictate how you write the story.

How come no one could connect Cinder to Torchwick and the White Fang despite Glynda's duel with her? Because Monty threw that fight in so he could have Cool Shit. Why did Penny completely rob Volume 1 of an actual narrative climax by having Weiss be the one to come to Blake's aid, and also why did it take until Volume 2 for Ruby to make the now-obvious connection that she was an android? Because Monty threw that fight in so he could have Cool Shit. Why did Team CFVY completely steal the spotlight from characters who actually fucking matter, thus making an already-shaky end to a Volume that much worse? Because Cool Shit. Why did Raven appear in a vision to Yang that went precisely nowhere and had no bearing on anything that ever happened afterward? Because Monty really wanted that scene in there immediately after Raven's appearance for some reason even though there was no way it was ever going to be developed in a timely manner and was thus just more Cool Shit.

Like, I have tremendous love and all the respect in the world for Monty, and his death was a legitimate tragedy both in general and for RWBY, but his background as an animator and choreographer making internet videos that were mostly plotless and just a lot of Cool Shit happening at all times? It really showed, especially toward the ends of Volumes, often to the narrative's detriment. I think he was starting to rein this in, but if Monty from Volume 1 was involved with writing Volume 5, you can bet the actual narrative would take a backseat to Monty wanting to have Sienna just be the catalyst for more Cool Shit, and the ending fight would probably involve the pilot and the boat captain and/or the rest of Team SSSN storming in out of fucking nowhere and kicking Hazel's ass to save the heroes.

Also, let's not forget that Sienna's presided over the White Fang's slide into terrorism and has approved of pretty much everything they've done right up until Adam threw his lot in with Salem, and being above something like that is not a high bar to clear. Sienna was going to be a more complicated character than Adam, sure, and would have added some ambiguity to the situation, but I can guarantee you that the people complaining about the person of color getting killed off would have been rioting if the person of color was the bad guy (a terrorist bad guy, no less) who needed to be overthrown to bring back the benevolent leadership of the lighter-skinned Ghira. Short of just retconning Sienna into a good guy, they'd have caught flak either way no matter how complex and well-developed a character they made her, so I don't particularly care about that argument.

Zam · May 16, 2018

Leingod said:
How come no one could connect Cinder to Torchwick and the White Fang despite Glynda's duel with her?

They did though didn't they? Glynda mentioned the fight and noted similarities between her foe and the woman who broke into the CCT.

Leingod said:
Why did Penny completely rob Volume 1 of an actual narrative climax by having Weiss be the one to come to Blake's aid, and also why did it take until Volume 2 for Ruby to make the now-obvious connection that she was an android? Because Monty threw that fight in so he could have Cool Shit.

I feel like the whole team would have been better, plus how would it be a natural deduction to make when Aura using, human/Faunus like androids were not something Ruby thought of, the most advanced bots we saw ere the security droids, Penny is a few dozens steps ahead of that.

Leingod said:
Because Monty really wanted that scene in there immediately after Raven's appearance for some reason even though there was no way it was ever going to be developed in a timely manner and was thus just more Cool Shit.

This feel like an assumption given we don't know what he might have had planned, plus didn't Raven go through a substantial re-write after V2?

Leingod said:
Also, let's not forget that Sienna's presided over the White Fang's slide into terrorism and has approved of pretty much everything they've done right up until Adam threw his lot in with Salem, and being above something like that is not a high bar to clear. Sienna was going to be a more complicated character than Adam, sure, and would have added some ambiguity to the situation, but I can guarantee you that the people complaining about the person of color getting killed off would have been rioting if the person of color was the bad guy (a terrorist bad guy, no less) who needed to be overthrown to bring back the benevolent leadership of the lighter-skinned Ghira. Short of just retconning Sienna into a good guy, they'd have caught flak either way no matter how complex and well-developed a character they made her, so I don't particularly care about that argument.

A: I seriously think people exaggerate how bad RWBY reactions are.
B: I think we have different moral fibres on this front as I find that to be what makes Sienna sympathetic and interesting.
C: Or there could have been a middle road like say:

Adam tries his coup, and due to surprise does injure Sienna, but she survives and escapes, rallies forces loyal to her, which is lots, works with the Belladonna's to stop Adam and his human masters but in no way repents or apologizes for her past actions save not stopping Adam sooner. Then, after they helped save Mistral, Sienna cuts a deal with the council that the WF will protect the now, very weakened kingdom, if it ends all unfair laws against Faunus, reimburses all Faunus who had to slave away in their mines and adopts an integrated political/police/ETC model and stuff like that.

Edit: not trying to be rude with my tone here, just efficient, sorry if it comes across otherwise.

Leingod · May 16, 2018

Zam said:
They did though didn't they? Glynda mentioned the fight and noted similarities between her foe and the woman who broke into the CCT.

Yeah, but they never do anything with that connection. Ironwood never brings her up when he's grilling Torchwick about who the mastermind is, Qrow never connects it to the black-haired chick in a red dress who attacked Amber (sure Emerald was disguising their faces, but Qrow would at least bring up the possibility of it being the same person), it's just kind of acknowledged for that one line and then quietly dropped.

I feel like the whole team would have been better, plus how would it be a natural deduction to make when Aura using, human/Faunus like androids were not something Ruby thought of, the most advanced bots we saw ere the security droids, Penny is a few dozens steps ahead of that.

Yeah, I phrased that poorly. It's not so much that Ruby didn't immediately make the leap that Penny was an android (though the swords coming out of an opening in her back are... Well, there's a tiny-ass backpack you can barely notice there, so I guess that's okay), so much as that it ruins the reveal for the audience. A lot of people had already guessed that Penny was an android, yes, but quite a few people didn't, and most that did guess that weren't positive or anything. The reveal in Volume 2 was supposed to be shocking, or at least an "I called it!" moment. Instead, just about everyone watching went, "Yeah, no shit."

Weiss, entire team, either way, it would have had actual narrative payoff, which is my point with saying that Penny doing Cool Shit harmed the narrative.

This feel like an assumption given we don't know what he might have had planned, plus didn't Raven go through a substantial re-write after V2?

That Raven underwent a drastic rewrite in background and/or character is just as much of an assumption.

A: I seriously think people exaggerate how bad RWBY reactions are.

If only.

B: I think we have different moral fibres on this front as I find that to be what makes Sienna sympathetic and interesting.

I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm saying that bringing up people getting mad about Sienna being a woman of color who dies five minutes into the episode isn't a strong argument that the CRWBY should have kept her alive, since if she'd lived we'd probably just be getting complaints about a woman of color being a violent terrorist. Sienna could totally be an interesting character... but you could develop a bunch of characters in all kinds of interesting ways, and you have to pick something and stick with it. You can argue that they picked the wrong one, but either way, a choice had to be made, and I'm glad they did instead of trying to have their cake and eating it to by constantly introducing interesting new characters with cool designs and then not having the time or resources to actually do enough with them to justify it.

Adam tries his coup, and due to surprise does injure Sienna, but she survives and escapes, rallies forces loyal to her, which is lots, works with the Belladonna's to stop Adam and his human masters but in no way repents or apologizes for her past actions save not stopping Adam sooner. Then, after they helped save Mistral, Sienna cuts a deal with the council that the WF will protect the now, very weakened kingdom, if it ends all unfair laws against Faunus, reimburses all Faunus who had to slave away in their mines and adopts an integrated political/police/ETC model and stuff like that.

Gonna be honest, would not have preferred that outcome in the least. In fact, I probably would have hated the ending to Volume 5 if that had happened.

Zam · May 16, 2018

Leingod said:
Yeah, but they never do anything with that connection. Ironwood never brings her up when he's grilling Torchwick about who the mastermind is, Qrow never connects it to the black-haired chick in a red dress who attacked Amber (sure Emerald was disguising their faces, but Qrow would at least bring up the possibility of it being the same person), it's just kind of acknowledged for that one line and then quietly dropped.

What would they do with this info though? I mean that genuinely.

There;s likely tons of dark haired women and dark haired women who wear red dresses.

We saw in the tournament Cinder had a different outfit and fighting style.

Sure we could have gotten a scene of Ironwood grilling Roman but if Roman doesn't talk what's the point in it?

Do we know Qrow didn't? I assumed it was just implied.

Leingod said:
Yeah, I phrased that poorly. It's not so much that Ruby didn't immediately make the leap that Penny was an android (though the swords coming out of an opening in her back are... Well, there's a tiny-ass backpack you can barely notice there, so I guess that's okay), so much as that it ruins the reveal for the audience. A lot of people had already guessed that Penny was an android, yes, but quite a few people didn't, and most that did guess that weren't positive or anything. The reveal in Volume 2 was supposed to be shocking, or at least an "I called it!" moment. Instead, just about everyone watching went, "Yeah, no shit."

Weiss, entire team, either way, it would have had actual narrative payoff, which is my point with saying that Penny doing Cool Shit harmed the narrative.

Pretty sure that was a backpack not her back, though it did look like her back, but still, very sure it was a backpack.

I'm not really sure what they could have done there beyond completely rebuild Penny's character. She was already pretty robot like. I mean, I guess having no fight scene would have made some people less sure, but it seemed like a really natural guess to make, at least to me. Not a sure thing, but close.

Fair enough, though given we don't know what or wasn't originally planned for Sienna I am unsure what impact Monty's presence would have had, save maybe giving her a badass 'death'.

Leingod said:
That Raven underwent a drastic rewrite in background and/or character is just as much of an assumption.

I thought I saw people cite it from an interview, apologies if I was incorrect.

Leingod said:
If only.

As I said, I think you exaggerate.

Leingod said:
I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm saying that bringing up people getting mad about Sienna being a woman of color who dies five minutes into the episode isn't a strong argument that the CRWBY should have kept her alive, since if she'd lived we'd probably just be getting complaints about a woman of color being a violent terrorist. Sienna could totally be an interesting character... but you could develop a bunch of characters in all kinds of interesting ways, and you have to pick something and stick with it. You can argue that they picked the wrong one, but either way, a choice had to be made, and I'm glad they did instead of trying to have their cake and eating it to by constantly introducing interesting new characters with cool designs and then not having the time or resources to actually do enough with them to justify it.

That's all down to guesswork though and I also feel really simplifies the issue. I feel Sienna was poorly utilized as it stands and think plenty of other characters could have been cut to give her or anyone else more screen-time and been of better use, but then we are in the realms of personal taste.

Leingod said:
Gonna be honest, would not have preferred that outcome in the least. In fact, I probably would have hated the ending to Volume 5 if that had happened.

As said, personal taste, I loved the idea of Sienna returning triumphant and forcing change.

The Narrator · May 16, 2018

Zam said:
I feel like the whole team would have been better, plus how would it be a natural deduction to make when Aura using, human/Faunus like androids were not something Ruby thought of, the most advanced bots we saw ere the security droids, Penny is a few dozens steps ahead of that.

The thing is, Penny's fight at the end of Volume 1 made it really obvious that she was a robot. I don't think anybody in the audience failed to realize it. So having her jump into that fight kind of screwed up Penny's arc in addition to screwing up Blake's.

(Whole team would also have worked, the but the most important person to have there really was Weiss, since she and Blake were the ones who had the falling-out.)

Leingod said:
Qrow never connects it to the black-haired chick in a red dress who attacked Amber

I seem to recall that they kept Cinder in shadow when she fought Glynda in the first episode, so she might not have even been able to see that much.

Leingod · May 16, 2018

Zam said:
As said, personal taste, I loved the idea of Sienna returning triumphant and forcing change.

"Yay! The woman who advocated for violent, militant terrorism gets everything she wanted and doesn't have to admit to any possible failing on her part, or learn anything or grow as a person in the slightest! Remember kids, terrorism is A-OK and will get you everything you want so long as you make sure to help your enemies take down someone worse!" is what I would have got out of that.

The Narrator said:
I seem to recall that they kept Cinder in shadow when she fought Glynda in the first episode, so she might not have even been able to see that much.

Only her face was in shadow, which Qrow didn't get to see anyway.

Zam · May 16, 2018

The Narrator said:
The thing is, Penny's fight at the end of Volume 1 made it really obvious that she was a robot. I don't think anybody in the audience failed to realize it. So having her jump into that fight kind of screwed up Penny's arc in addition to screwing up Blake's.

(Whole team would also have worked, the but the most important person to have there really was Weiss, since she and Blake were the ones who had the falling-out.)

Eh, not sure I strictly agree, it may have made it a bit more obvious but not hugely to me but this is personal and had a lot to do with the designs. Plus, just because something is a shock in universe doesn't mean it has to be out of universe to still have worth. Like, we knew Emerald was a villain, but Ruby discovering it still had weight I feel.

Maybe? I don't know, Weiss finding Blake fighting the WF in some respect could almost send the wrong message. IE, would Weiss still have been on her side if she hadn't seen Blake fight them? Granted she knows Blake fought them before seeing her again in canon, seemingly, so that problem could still be said to exist.

The Narrator said:
I seem to recall that they kept Cinder in shadow when she fought Glynda in the first episode, so she might not have even been able to see that much.

This too.

Leingod said:
"Yay! The woman who advocated for violent, militant terrorism gets everything she wanted and doesn't have to admit to any possible failing on her part, or learn anything or grow as a person in the slightest! Remember kids, terrorism is A-OK and will get you everything you want so long as you make sure to help your enemies take down someone worse!" is what I would have got out of that.

This feels like a massive over simplification and kind of disrespectful, if you have issues with my idea, did you need to phrase it like this?

Anyway, as I said, we clearly have divergent moralities, I don't have this same issue many seem to have with non passive/peaceful resistance. In fact, I generally support it and think only advocating peaceful methods is ultimately self defeating in most instances, particularly in the face of very powerful forces that cannot be impacted by much of anything else one does. Heck, we generally romanticize revolutions and revolutionaries.

Beyond that, the version I supplied was a simplistic breakdown, ideally Sienna would have had to confront the fact her methodology does let someone like Adam prosper at mostly humanities expense, but would get the counter argument, Ghira's let people like Jac prosper at their people's expense. Thus a more middle-ground coming about once a more even bargaining position is set up.

Leingod said:
Only her face was in shadow, which Qrow didn't get to see anyway.

Again though, red dresses, I'm sure there's lots, what would bringing up "I think the person you fought in a Bullhead and Ruby fought in the tower is also the one I fought who stole Amber's power" accomplished being spelled out if it wasn't implied?

Tython82 · May 16, 2018

Going to be honest here but when I first saw Penny and the way she acted I thought that CRWBY were actually introducing a character with autisim or similar mental handicap. But after the fight scene....I went "Ah a robot"....how original.....

As for Sienna I will have to side with Leingod on this since I did like the fact that they were willing to kill such a character right out the gate since it gave the show a sense of "Anyone can die" to it. However I do feel that Zam's idea could also have worked if Sienna had come to realize what a monster she has created with Adam and crew and the current direction of the White Fang from her original intent worked with Ghria as a form of atonement to stop Adam and end the monster she has created.

Also I agree with Leingod that well...Monty in the end was kind of a problem story wise since he kept throwing stuff in for no reason. The biggest example being well the Maidens who were created during the middle of season 2 and all the problems storywise that came from that.

Zam · May 16, 2018

Tython82 said:
Going to be honest here but when I first saw Penny and the way she acted I thought that CRWBY were actually introducing a character with autisim or similar mental handicap. But after the fight scene....I went "Ah a robot"....how original.....

As I understand it handicap is no longer considered an ideal world.

Tython82 said:
As for Sienna I will have to side with Leingod on this since I did like the fact that they were willing to kill such a character right out the gate since it gave the show a sense of "Anyone can die" to it. However I do feel that Zam's idea could also have worked if Sienna had come to realize what a monster she has created with Adam and crew and the current direction of the White Fang from her original intent worked with Ghria as a form of atonement to stop Adam and end the monster she has created.

Thanks, while a bit different from my take I can see the appeal and appreciate the consideration.

Tython82 said:
Also I agree with Leingod that well...Monty in the end was kind of a problem story wise since he kept throwing stuff in for no reason. The biggest example being well the Maidens who were created during the middle of season 2 and all the problems storywise that came from that.

Weirdly I feel the Maidens work oddly well, Pyrrha and Cinder already had autumn leaves symbols in the V2 opening, and Cinder needed some kind of personal power up to take on Ozpin.

Leingod · May 16, 2018

Tython82 said:
Also I agree with Leingod that well...Monty in the end was kind of a problem story wise since he kept throwing stuff in for no reason. The biggest example being well the Maidens who were created during the middle of season 2 and all the problems storywise that came from that.

1. Monty "had" a problem, not Monty "was" a problem. The former implies something very different from the latter, and I do not want anyone associating me with the latter train of thought.

2. I actually like the Maidens. They don't quite fit in several ways in Volume 3 due to the lateness of their inclusion, but I like the idea itself and the ways they've been using it recently make up for it IMO. It also makes the search for the Relics more interesting when the "keys" are living people with magic superpowers even beyond normal Dust/Aura stuff.

Leingod · May 16, 2018

I don't entirely agree with these posts, but there's some interesting analysis/interpretation here nonetheless:

The most interesting idea, to me, is that some part of Jaune, consciously or otherwise, expected that he'd show up at Beacon and yeah he'd start at the bottom but he'd rocket to the top like every other one of those heroes he grew up with, like every shounen hero and Hero's Journey type, and when that didn't happen he started thinking something was wrong with him and lashed out when Pyrrha offered to help because he wasn't supposed to need his friends to keep helping him out with everything.

LancerisDead · May 16, 2018

So it's not so much that Jaune "steals" time from the other characters. It's that Jaune isn't the man they feel he should be… while Ruby is not the girl they insist she should be. The hatred toward both character portrayals is a direct cause of toxic masculinity and trying to force specific gender roles and traits on people just because they have breasts or pecs.

Huh, it isn't exactly how I would have said it, but I agree with most of this.

Ruby being kind of boring I always took it not as her being badly written but more of baggage of being the main character. There is a reason people always tend to find The Lancer or The Ace more interesting/likable than The Leader, after all.

Leingod · May 16, 2018

LancerisDead said:
Huh, it isn't exactly how I would have said it, but I agree with most of this.

Ruby being kind of boring I always took it not as her being badly written but more of baggage of being the main character. There is a reason people always tend to find The Lancer or The Ace more interesting/likable than The Leader, after all.

What I find interesting is this idea that Jaune grew up on stories that led him to expect that he'd just show up at Beacon and be a shounen hero. Probably not consciously expect it, no matter how convinced of themselves teenagers tend to be, but that the expectation was in there. Oh, Jaune knew he'd be starting at the bottom, sure, but he was determined, and ready to work hard, and he had a dream he was working toward, so of course he could go to a school with a curriculum that assumed way more competence than he had and keep up with other teenagers who'd been training and studying for this stuff for years already to prepare for it. 'Cause he was going to be a hero, just like his ancestors and like all those other heroes and...

Yeah, you know where this is heading. Turns out the universe isn't going to just hand you power-ups just because you want something a whole lot. A lot of people get baffled when he turns down Pyrrha's offer to help him, but I totally got it from the start. Some part of Jaune feels like she shouldn't need her help, because he's got this dumbass mentality that he should be able to just show up, work really hard, and everything'll just fall into place. He's not supposed to need help, because everything he knows about heroes is that they just do everything on their own because they're awesome. Luke didn't need Han Solo taking potshots at Darth Vader, did he? And so he feels like something's wrong with him, and it makes him lash out when Pyrrha seems to confirm his own fears about himself by offering to help him. I never experienced anything quite as dramatic, but a serious problem with needing help and feeling offended when people offered it? Yeah, I'm deeply familiar with it.

I was always baffled when people were baffled by Jaune's behavior, honestly. I mean, I totally got giving him shit for it and calling him stupid - because that's exactly what he was being - but I knew exactly what was happening, because I've been just as stupid as him, and I didn't get some big redemptive moment where I admitted my mistake to the people I'd pushed away, either, so good on him. I just didn't realize how much of a take on the typical shounen protagonist/Hero's Journey thing this also was, and now I'm kind of wondering how much that stuff might have affected my own self-perception as a teenager...

Vindictus · May 16, 2018

Leingod said:
What I find interesting is this idea that Jaune grew up on stories that led him to expect that he'd just show up at Beacon and be a shounen hero. Probably not consciously expect it, no matter how convinced of themselves teenagers tend to be, but that the expectation was in there. Oh, Jaune knew he'd be starting at the bottom, sure, but he was determined, and ready to work hard, and he had a dream he was working toward, so of course he could go to a school with a curriculum that assumed way more competence than he had and keep up with other teenagers who'd been training and studying for this stuff for years already to prepare for it. 'Cause he was going to be a hero, just like his ancestors and like all those other heroes and...

Yeah, you know where this is heading. Turns out the universe isn't going to just hand you power-ups just because you want something a whole lot. A lot of people get baffled when he turns down Pyrrha's offer to help him, but I totally got it from the start. Some part of Jaune feels like she shouldn't need her help, because he's got this dumbass mentality that he should be able to just show up, work really hard, and everything'll just fall into place. He's not supposed to need help, because everything he knows about heroes is that they just do everything on their own because they're awesome. Luke didn't need Han Solo taking potshots at Darth Vader, did he? And so he feels like something's wrong with him, and it makes him lash out when Pyrrha seems to confirm his own fears about himself by offering to help him. I never experienced anything quite as dramatic, but a serious problem with needing help and feeling offended when people offered it? Yeah, I'm deeply familiar with it.

I was always baffled when people were baffled by Jaune's behavior, honestly. I mean, I totally got giving him shit for it and calling him stupid - because that's exactly what he was being - but I knew exactly what was happening, because I've been just as stupid as him, and I didn't get some big redemptive moment where I admitted my mistake to the people I'd pushed away, either, so good on him. I just didn't realize how much of a take on the typical shounen protagonist/Hero's Journey thing this also was, and now I'm kind of wondering how much that stuff might have affected my own self-perception as a teenager...

We.... Are still talking about the guy who is shown sleeping in class and reading comic books when he should be studying, right?

"He wants to work hard and do it on his own" sort of falls flat when the show has opportunities to show him working hard, and instead uses those opportunities to show him slacking off.

Tython82 · May 16, 2018

Grimnir said:
We.... Are still talking about the guy who is shown sleeping in class and reading comic books when he should be studying, right?

"He wants to work hard and do it on his own" sort of falls flat when the show has opportunities to show him working hard, and instead uses those opportunities to show him slacking off.

Again Jaune is running off of Anime/Shonen logic. For example Naruto during the Chunin exams was expected to be able acquire information for his test by cheating in secret but that became moot when they threw in the psycological test at the last minute which was stupid since one of the primary jobs of a shinobi is acquiring information.

Jaune is somewhat running on the same logic as those kind of comics/stories that he grew up on in that he thinks that even though he is slacking off he will pass just fine.

Leila Hann · May 16, 2018

Tython82 said:
Again Jaune is running off of Anime/Shonen logic. For example Naruto during the Chunin exams was expected to be able acquire information for his test by cheating in secret but that became moot when they threw in the psycological test at the last minute which was stupid since one of the primary jobs of a shinobi is acquiring information.

Jaune is somewhat running on the same logic as those kind of comics/stories that he grew up on in that he thinks that even though he is slacking off he will pass just fine.

And it never has any actual negative consequences for him, so calling this a subversion seems like a product of not knowing what "subversion" means.

Anyway, I can only speak for myself here, but "he took time away from the real main characters" is only a small part of the reason I hated Jaune. There's also the facts that the show never treats his charlatanry with the seriousness it calls for, his not knowing what aura is in a world with mass-televised tournaments with aura scoreboards makes him a living plothole, his interactions with Pyrrha throughout seasons 1-2 were some of the most shamelessly creepy sexist bullshit I've ever seen, and his interactions with Weiss and Neptune in season two made him outright hateable even ignoring anything else (and no one ever takes him to task for it).

Even if I loved RWBY, I'd probably still hate Jaune and wish the show had never introduced him.

StellarSeeker · May 16, 2018

Grimnir said:
We.... Are still talking about the guy who is shown sleeping in class and reading comic books when he should be studying, right?

"He wants to work hard and do it on his own" sort of falls flat when the show has opportunities to show him working hard, and instead uses those opportunities to show him slacking off.

Leila Hann said:
And it never has any actual negative consequences for him, so calling this a subversion seems like a product of not knowing what "subversion" means.

Ah, and there's the negativity and insistence that this show cannot have any depth whatsoever.

I was wondering if I had fallen into a parallel dimension or something. Glad to see that nobody has learned anything from this thread at all.

Uncle · May 16, 2018

StellarSeeker said:
Ah, and there's the negativity and insistence that this show cannot have any depth whatsoever.

I was wondering if I had fallen into a parallel dimension or something. Glad to see that nobody has learned anything from this thread at all.

What depth is this show trying to have with Jaune?

StellarSeeker · May 16, 2018

Uncle said:
What depth is this show trying to have with Jaune?

It's almost as if someone posted a tumblr post about it or something :thonk:

Tython82 · May 16, 2018

Uncle said:
What depth is this show trying to have with Jaune?

That Jaune is a subversion or even better a deconstruction of Anime Shonen protagonists like Naruto and Luffy etc.

Vindictus · May 16, 2018

Tython82 said:
Again Jaune is running off of Anime/Shonen logic. For example Naruto during the Chunin exams was expected to be able acquire information for his test by cheating in secret but that became moot when they threw in the psycological test at the last minute which was stupid since one of the primary jobs of a shinobi is acquiring information.

Jaune is somewhat running on the same logic as those kind of comics/stories that he grew up on in that he thinks that even though he is slacking off he will pass just fine.

What on earth are you even talking about-?

The Chunin exam test involved Naruto misunderstanding the purpose of the test; he was never meant to be able to pass it normally, but he had internalized the idea that he was dumb and that if he couldn't answer the questions it was because he was stupid, not because the test was not meant to be answered normally.

This doesn't indicate any lack of dedication in Naruto, or that he was a slacker. We see Naruto training all the time through the entire series, and when we see him in class or with his teachers he is attentive and inquisitive, so the argument that Jaune doesn't train as a call-out to Naruto is completely off base.

StellarSeeker said:
Ah, and there's the negativity and insistence that this show cannot have any depth whatsoever.

That's a straw man. RWBY could easily have depth; However, 'Depth' implies that some bit of fanon or deeper reading into the show is based on a deeper analysis of things that actually happen in the show.

When you create an elaborate interpretation of RWBY which is not supported by events in the show, or is even outright contradicted by events in the show, that's not 'depth'. That's an AU.

Leingod · May 16, 2018

Tython82 said:
That Jaune is a subversion or even better a deconstruction of Anime Shonen protagonists like Naruto and Luffy etc.

Namely in that Jaune doesn't start to improve until he starts moving past the attitude of "I don't/shouldn't need help from my peers to succeed even though I'm an idiot," like how Naruto learned Kage Bunshin in a few hours and made Genin despite being a lazy slacker and loudmouthed prankster because "dreams" and all that. Naruto never needed to ask his teammates to teach him to stop sucking. He just proves himself by being determined and some elite older ninja gets impressed and teaches him.

StellarSeeker · May 16, 2018

Grimnir said:
That's a straw man. RWBY could easily have depth; However, 'Depth' implies that some bit of fanon or deeper reading into the show is based on a deeper analysis of things that actually happen in the show.

When you create an elaborate interpretation of RWBY which is not supported by events in the show, or is even outright contradicted by events in the show, that's not 'depth'. That's an AU.

Bluntly speaking, all literary analysis is just making up elaborate reinterpretations of the text.

The reason why you're insisting that this is incorrect is probably because you have already drawn a conclusion regarding the show and don't want to hear different interpretations.

Leila Hann · May 16, 2018

StellarSeeker said:
Bluntly speaking, all literary analysis is just making up elaborate reinterpretations of the text.

The reason why you're insisting that this is incorrect because you have already drawn a conclusion regarding the show and don't want to hear different interpretations.

"You disagree with me, therefore you are closedminded and irrational."

Maybe you should try and actually address the substance of the posts you're responding to?

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Good Civ Inspector

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Disembodied Voice

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Definitely not a cat

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XENO

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