RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
 
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The White Fang are obviously inspired by groups like the Black Panthers and other revolutionary civil rights groups that grew out of the shittyness of Jim Crow.
Actually, to pick up a point, I would question this. People liken the White Fang to the Black Panthers, but the Black Panthers worked toward community safety and jazz while also having an armed aspect that outside forces used to discredit mainstream Civil Rights. Their militancy was an enduring, steady part of the movement.

The White Fang instead seems to have been mainly a peaceful activism movement that swung very abruptly into military extremism, apparently under the leadership of a single individual. Like, it happened suddenly enough that a teenage girl on the inside (not a creature best known for their deep and nuanced political awareness) sat up and took notice.

If I had to draw a real-world analogy, I'd probably crib from recent discussions with Havocfett and @notthepenguins and say it sounds kinda like what happened to the Muslim Brotherhood around the time of the assassination of Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha. But then, that was in response to a government crackdown, whereas the White Fang's sudden aggression came about due to an internal leadership change rather than any specific outside event.
 
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I kinda like Adams depiction in the actual show.

Yes the White Fang (WF) can be sympathize with due to the Racial discrimination they face, but as Blake stated and we've seen, the organization has gone down a dark path.

Adam, Edgelord he may be, seems the kind to have been able to take them down such a path.

His implied seniority and Sheer power with that sword he has would let him easily throw-out or bully the more peace-minded members of the WF, and anyone who tried to run damn well might have ended up like Tukson.
 
Yes the White Fang (WF) can be sympathize with due to the Racial discrimination they face, but as Blake stated and we've seen, the organization has gone down a dark path.
Yeah pretty much. I mean, they were introduced way back in the very first episode as "that group that broke up a peaceful Faunus Civil Rights protest."
 
It's not quite that bad, nobody ever denies the Schnee Dust Company treat their Faunus workers badly and Blake apparently feels the need to hide her ears to avoid discrimination, but it's fairly thin, yeah.

That doesn't really tell us much; it could run a huge spectrum.

The best case scenario? SDC mainly employs Faunus in the mines, it's not that they can't work in cushy corporate jobs, but most are directed and solicited to the mines. The reason for this is because of Faunus' inherent ability to see in the dark. It would greatly allow the SDC to cut down on dust-using machines and lighting in the mines and reduce the risks of a sympathetic explosion. Combined with a need for miners (human or faunus) not to have Aura (since that could also trigger a catastrophic explosion) a lot of miners die. The rate of accidental death doesn't even have to be high to make it look incredibly bad. It is inherently discriminatory but in such a way that's necessary to minimize the number of people killed. If you mixed human/faunus miners then the rate of accidental deaths would go up, creating more negative emotions and then draw Grimm on top of that. The mines are located in the wilderness, already at extreme risk of Grimm attack but you can't stop mining Dust since that would mean the end of the kingdoms.

The worst case scenario? Outright chattel slavery or maybe de facto slavery via debt and good ole company towns. (Although, I question how profitable that would be since the negative emotions of those held in bondage would draw in countless Grimm.)

Actually, to pick up a point, I would question this. People liken the White Fang to the Black Panthers, but the Black Panthers worked toward community safety and jazz while also having an armed aspect that outside forces used to discredit mainstream Civil Rights. Their militancy was an enduring, steady part of the movement.

If you ask the average person off the street who the Black Panthers were, you'd probably get a 'Who?' People who know would probably focus on the perception of them being violent as a contrast to Dr. Martin Luther's CRM. It's probably only a minority who know or care that they did other stuff too.

It's a pop representation, thus not likely accurate.

The White Fang instead seems to have been mainly a peaceful activism movement that swung very abruptly into military extremism, apparently under the leadership of a single individual. Like, it happened suddenly enough that a teenage girl on the inside (not a creature best known for their deep and nuanced political awareness) sat up and took notice.

Given Blake's activism streak and constant reading habit, I suspect she's a little more aware than the average person.

This is the same teenage girl that was the girlfriend of one of their senior most leaders and a highly important operative. The WF Lieutenant defers to Adam and he was the one that made the decision to ally with Cinder. At the very least, Adam is a major cell leader, potentially of all of Vale. Even if he abuses Blake and disregards her opinions, Adam has to work with her closely in public because an ideological movement about freeing them from tyranny wouldn't take kindly to one of their members doing that to one of their own.

I also suspect that a lot of militant hate was already there before the leader changed. You don't develop from a peaceful protest movement with a long history (since the Faunus Revolution in 'ancient history') to a well-organized and equipped (they had an air force!) violent insurgency in five years. The new leader likely pushed for this particular course, but the infrastructure can't have come from nowhere.


As an aside, one of my personal Headcanons is that the peaceful White Fang were hugely involved with getting Faunus into Hunter Academies like Signal and Beacon. Things like study groups, tuition, tutoring, etc. all of that in order to create more Faunus hunters and thus raise their profile and generate good PR. The White Fang were then so able to militarize because a lot of those White Fang supported hunters joined the movement as it grew violent.
 
Actually now that I think about it, I think that at the beginning the White Fang might have been one group of many of those who wanted equality, a small voice part of the choir, but parts of the organization wanted to be the leading voice, to make the Faunus rights the WF victory, so they turned to extremism, and they not only started to attack the SDC but the other Faunus rights groups, how much do you want to bet that if there is a Faunus MLK he or she was killed by the WF.
 
Yeah, I'd agree that the mechanisms to make the White Fang violent were already there, given that the original Revolution started with an (as far as we know) global plan to deport the entire Faunus population of Remnant to the equivalent of Australia.

Actually, if you look at it, the White Fang as they are now can be blamed on the Revolution. Going off of the 'Deport to menagerie' plan, one can assume that the Faunus were heavily oppressed and probably didn't have many rights. Presumably there were peaceful efforts to change that, but at the end of the day it was violence, force of arms, hat succeeded in securing rights and freedoms for the Faunus population.

Now, there was the promise of hope, but the Faunus who didn't experience the war, look around and see that nothing has really changed (a logical conceit, given what's been said before) The Faunus aren't in positions of authority, they're exploited, things seem to be becoming terrible again. And here's this example of the time that the Faunus stood up and said in one voice that they want freedom and equality, and succeeded. And what did it involve? Violent revolution and warfare.

Moral of the story: It's all history.
 
The White Fang is inspired by the Black Panthers, going by the "faunus are heavily discriminated against" thing from when Blake told her backstory. People were, understandably, expecting them to be sympathetic.
Sorry but has this been confirmed somewhere because I've never heard hat they were based off that particular group and from my, admittedly limited understanding I am also fairly confident the two groups are still extremely different.

So out of curiosity is the manga canon with the series? If so then the next arc which focuses on Blake could answer some of our questions in regards to her relationship with Adam.
From what the writers have said its apparenyly 'canon till its not' meaning they have a fair amount of control so its canon, but somehting could be printed in it that goes against the show in which case the show takes precedent is my take on it.

As far as we can tell, the only instance of Faunus discrimination ever shown was Cardin pulling Velvet's ear and taunting her in Vol 1. Given how he tormented Jaune and seems to be a general ass, I don't even think we can say it was specifically racially motivated beyond Cardin was dick and he saw a victim.
I think part of the issue in showing the discrimination is that the only Faunus we spend any solid amount of time with is Blake and she's actively in the process of passing. Besides that we have like,one background character, Velvet and Sun; from what I recall, though I could be wrong, Velvet was originally only placed there to demonstrate what was apparently the 'norm' for human Faunus relations. As to Cardin, I don't feel him being a jerk undermines prejudice motivations to his bullying even if its just that he regards and treats Velvet with contempt because of her Faunus nature or makes reference to it as an insult.

Beyond that I feel its important to remember we're at Beacon pretty much all the time, Opzin apparently wants to make it a egalitarian place and there aren't many Faunus to begin with, so its hard to display prejudice. However, I think one can also take the lack of presence as indicative of something, there's barely any Faunus at Beacon, seemingly none in positions of influence, fame, or authority qithin Vale, and we see few in well off areas in the background save maybe Tukson who can actually pass for human. That is to say, if a motivator to fight is born of economic and a lack of representation, and according to Weiss and Blake, shitty working conditions for presumably Faunus labourers in the SDC mines, then its not going to be somehting as obvious as different drinking fountains. Though according to Blake stores could get away with denying Faunus service just due to them being Faunus, said stores also got fire bombed so I guess we know how that worked out.

I sort of tried to go into this awhile ago and had some interesting discussions from it. Basically, we know there was a Faunus Rights Revolution sometime in ancient enough history that its not 'common knowledge' but recent enough that its effects are still very clearly felt today such as with the existence of the White Fang.

Now, we don't know what the exact situation of the Faunus was but we do know the human Governments were trying to force many, if not all of them to Menagerie, an island far away from all the other kingdoms and given they were forcing it and the Faunus didn't want to go despite their own issues with humans chances are its not exactly a nice or safe place. Mass deportation and having to fight a war to stop it can implicitly, I feel, say a lot about who hold the power in a society and how they regard the "others".

So, given the decision to deport the Faunus was made, and it didn't go down well with the Faunus and the war was called 'Faunus Rights Revolution' one can assume they didn't have many rights and presumably little to no power or influence within the society, which often ends up relating to a lack of job opportunities, comfortable or stable living arrangements, being able to provide or receive a decent education and so on which basically becomes a feedback loop over the course of generations that won't just disappear because some laws got changed and one or two Faunus got lucky or were just plain to amazing to be passed over.

With that in mind I tend to assume many of the issues faced by Faunus are tied to lack of education and job opportunities which also creates a situation where arguing against discrimination, such as bullying or being denied service, extremely difficult to say the least. Now if we add in a lack of economic opportunities it becomes hard to supports one's self or one's family, loop ETC, which has the end result of a lot of poor disenfranchised, and angry people who know they are in the 'ave nots' category and that the situation was caused by previous generations screwing over their ancestors and who are still implicitly screwing them over, or just not fixing the issues their ancestors caused, today.

This can provide two things, anger, and need, anger at a sense of injustice and a lack of acknowledgement or representation by those in power, and need, food, camaraderie, protection, a home. The White Fang promises to correct the injustice and offers its members weapons, clothes, supplies and a place to live, maybe not a comfortable one, but the security net provided by them and how tantalising it may seem shouldn't be underestimated.

And the thing is, these issues are really hard to portray when the story is set in Beacon, a fairly isolated school attended by the wealthy, or genius elites only one of whom comes form such a background and who was actively hiding it for a time and seemingly has no connection with the Faunus community in Vale regardless, or at least not one she could or would utilise. meaning it is very hard to portray because its not in-front of the characters and its due to long standing cultural issues and a long standing power structure and systems whose effect on the average person is hard to interpret or portray with purely physical examples that would be accessible to the main cast.
 
I think part of the issue in showing the discrimination is that the only Faunus we spend any solid amount of time with is Blake and she's actively in the process of passing. Besides that we have like,one background character, Velvet and Sun; from what I recall, though I could be wrong, Velvet was originally only placed there to demonstrate what was apparently the 'norm' for human Faunus relations. As to Cardin, I don't feel him being a jerk undermines prejudice motivations to his bullying even if its just that he regards and treats Velvet with contempt because of her Faunus nature or makes reference to it as an insult.

This is actually really, really easy to fix if they'd thought ahead at all.

Have a scene in RWBY's dorm room with Blake watching a video on her Scroll (this can be an intro to any one of RWBY's other scenes, even!). The corpses of two Faunus were found hanged today on Vale's lower-east side... and then she shuts it off in disgust. Or when Sun sneaks into Vale, have one of the cops stop, give Blake a second glance and then realize: 'Oh, it's just a bow, not actually cat ears,' before apologizing for his presumption and going after Sun. Or the White Fang rally, mention a few grievances, atrocities, whatever to get the new recruits riled up. Maybe one of the competitors in the Vytal Festival makes a racist remark to Sun. Or a discussion between RWBY about why Blake wants to pass for human.

Showing discrimination isn't that hard.

If it takes someone like Cardin to show discrimination, then it isn't widespread. If he's the only one that does anything about it and everyone around him disapproves, then you can't really argue any form of widespread discrimination.

Beyond that I feel its important to remember we're at Beacon pretty much all the time, Opzin apparently wants to make it a egalitarian place and there aren't many Faunus to begin with, so its hard to display prejudice. However, I think one can also take the lack of presence as indicative of something, there's barely any Faunus at Beacon, seemingly none in positions of influence, fame, or authority qithin Vale, and we see few in well off areas in the background save maybe Tukson who can actually pass for human. That is to say, if a motivator to fight is born of economic and a lack of representation, and according to Weiss and Blake, shitty working conditions for presumably Faunus labourers in the SDC mines, then its not going to be somehting as obvious as different drinking fountains. Though according to Blake stores could get away with denying Faunus service just due to them being Faunus, said stores also got fire bombed so I guess we know how that worked out.

You can't argue ignorance due to setting limitations in the first paragraph and then bring it up in your support in the second. We know four of Beacon's faculty: Ozpin, Glynda, Port and Oobleck. We know zero external politicians or political figures. We don't know the other two headmasters (aside from Ironwood) are human or faunus. We don't know anyone outside RWBY, CFVY, JNPR, SSN, Cinder's group and the aforementioned other than Yang and Ruby's or Weiss' relatives. All of those groups (except JNPR and STRQ have faunus in them or, in the case of relatives, are same race) We don't even know the proportion of human to faunus, if it's 100:1 then they're actually massively over represented! If it's 100:13 (such as blacks in the US) then they're slightly over represented.

You have to either concede the first point or concede the second to remain consistent.

I sort of tried to go into this awhile ago and had some interesting discussions from it. Basically, we know there was a Faunus Rights Revolution sometime in ancient enough history that its not 'common knowledge' but recent enough that its effects are still very clearly felt today such as with the existence of the White Fang.

Now, we don't know what the exact situation of the Faunus was but we do know the human Governments were trying to force many, if not all of them to Menagerie, an island far away from all the other kingdoms and given they were forcing it and the Faunus didn't want to go despite their own issues with humans chances are its not exactly a nice or safe place. Mass deportation and having to fight a war to stop it can implicitly, I feel, say a lot about who hold the power in a society and how they regard the "others".

The Faunus Rights Revolution could've been over a hundred years ago, maybe more! Mass deportation feels a lot more compatible with the authoritarian Anti-Individuality movement that ended in the Great Colour War that was nearly 80 years ago. The free love society established after the revolution seems profoundly less likely to use military force to destroy or deport a minority group.

What I think happened was that the Faunus Rights Revolution occurred before the Colour War. It fits more with the regime's fascist undertones, perhaps they needed scapegoats for problems near the end? The event we're talking about now is as distant to modern Remnant as WWI is to us, if not more.

While those events do shape the modern form of Remnant, that's still a lot of time we're talking about. Things could've gotten better for Faunus in that enormous stretch of time and it would be strange if they hadn't.

So, given the decision to deport the Faunus was made, and it didn't go down well with the Faunus and the war was called 'Faunus Rights Revolution' one can assume they didn't have many rights and presumably little to no power or influence within the society, which often ends up relating to a lack of job opportunities, comfortable or stable living arrangements, being able to provide or receive a decent education and so on which basically becomes a feedback loop over the course of generations that won't just disappear because some laws got changed and one or two Faunus got lucky or were just plain to amazing to be passed over.

With that in mind I tend to assume many of the issues faced by Faunus are tied to lack of education and job opportunities which also creates a situation where arguing against discrimination, such as bullying or being denied service, extremely difficult to say the least. Now if we add in a lack of economic opportunities it becomes hard to supports one's self or one's family, loop ETC, which has the end result of a lot of poor disenfranchised, and angry people who know they are in the 'ave nots' category and that the situation was caused by previous generations screwing over their ancestors and who are still implicitly screwing them over, or just not fixing the issues their ancestors caused, today.

So how have they gotten such a complex logistical base if they're marginalized? Clearing out Mountain Glen was not a small achievement, it was something Vale failed to do. Constructing bombs, guns, trains, gathering Dust, air craft, training Hunters, all of that requires a lot of resources and education. None of that is something easy to come by in a death world where everything is trying to kill you. Even if they stole a lot of their equipment, it still requires a lot of knowledge, money and education to manage and organize, repair and retrain, propagandize and infiltrate. There's a reason things like the CRM, Communist Revolutions, Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, etc. are centered around a highly educated figurehead (some of them ironically trained in the West) and managed by effective bureaucracy. The only way to be a successful social movement is to organize effectively.

For Remnant, all of those concerns would be magnified. Given the self-contained nature of the kingdoms, everyone has to make do with less. The White Fang is doing really well if they can steal/misappropriate or acquire in donation as much as they do. (Seriously, they had an entire air force to move Grimm into the city.)

Also, if you're worried about low SEC and equivalent opportunity why are you genociding everyone indiscriminately!? The Grimm aren't going to care whether they're killing humans or Faunus and the White Fang was going to let them into the middle of downtown with the Breach. You don't argue for a larger share of the pie by burning the house down! Especially in a world where the act of burning the house down attracts more soulless abominations intent on kill everyone.

Adam might have decided to go through with the plan, but that couldn't have occurred without those beneath him supporting him. The White Fang were literally willing to kill innocent Faunus for whatever they're fighting for.
 
Showing discrimination isn't that hard.
Showing the type you mentioned isn't hard, issues of class and economical differences when they aren't somehting the main cast interact with much I feel are. I mean, Roman's speech focussed on how humans controlled the schools, the government and military's.

Note, I actually think your suggestions are good and believe they'd have improved the overall portrayal of the issues faced by Faunus.

We know zero external politicians or political figures.
We saw Ozpin's council and Lisa Lavender is on the news, another high profile job, and sicne when did Ozpin or Ironwood's crew have any Faunus amongst them save as students in a vastly smaller number than the humans? Heck, Cinder's group only has Faunus because she bullied them into it.

The Faunus Rights Revolution could've been over a hundred years ago, maybe more! Mass deportation feels a lot more compatible with the authoritarian Anti-Individuality movement that ended in the Great Colour War that was nearly 80 years ago. The free love society established after the revolution seems profoundly less likely to use military force to destroy or deport a minority group.

What I think happened was that the Faunus Rights Revolution occurred before the Colour War. It fits more with the regime's fascist undertones, perhaps they needed scapegoats for problems near the end? The event we're talking about now is as distant to modern Remnant as WWI is to us, if not more.

While those events do shape the modern form of Remnant, that's still a lot of time we're talking about. Things could've gotten better for Faunus in that enormous stretch of time and it would be strange if they hadn't.
It certainly could have, but we haven't actually been told when it happened so, and I am sorry if this seems rude, most of what you are suggesting is just assumptions, which there is from me as well of course.

Also given how slow the progress of civil rights has been in our world I don't think Remnant just ousting the anti individuality movement would drastically alter things so that in 80 years there were barely any issues.

So how have they gotten such a complex logistical base if they're marginalized? Clearing out Mountain Glen was not a small achievement, it was something Vale failed to do.
Well for starters they didn't clear out Mountain Glenn, the place was crawling with Grimm to the point where RWBY initially weren't going to be allowed to go and based on the flashback episode Cinder has been bank rolling them since taking over with Dust and money and then Roman's crime spree got them tons of Dust and mechs. Plus they only seem to have a small number of people beyond basic mook level, Adam, Blake, the lieutenant and that one who had daggers that managed to land a hit on Blake before immediately getting stomped by Weiss. Plus they seem to operate outside the kingdoms so that'd be a good skill increasing ground for the survivors.

I imagine the White Fang were given some BS explanation about how the use of Grimm in the battles would work or that they've adopted a "if you aren't with us you're against us" view which is fairly common to extremist groups. Though apparently the Fang would have been willing to ditch Cinder iff not for Adam so he may have helped bully and convince them into going along with the plan.
 
You can't argue ignorance due to setting limitations in the first paragraph and then bring it up in your support in the second.
Sorry I forgot to ask, I am kind of confused by what you mean here, could you clarify?

My point in the first bit you quoted was 'there aren't many Faunus around (even in the background scenes) and we barely see them interact with anyone outside of the main cast'. While my second point was built on that having been intentional as a means of implying there's few Faunus who can afford the sort of training needed to eventually get into Beacon or able to get into high ranking official positions.
 
I mean, Roman's speech focussed on how humans controlled the schools, the government and military's.

Addressing this in particular, what Roman said should be taken with a grain of salt given that for one he's hardly neutral, and for another he was clearly playing to the crowd. You know, the crowd of terrorists. He's not exactly going to go up there and say that they're a bunch of radical college kids who should stop bitching about how their lives suck and contribute to society already. :V
 
Addressing this in particular, what Roman said should be taken with a grain of salt given that for one he's hardly neutral, and for another he was clearly playing to the crowd. You know, the crowd of terrorists. He's not exactly going to go up there and say that they're a bunch of radical college kids who should stop bitching about how their lives suck and contribute to society already. :V
My point was more that his statements were, probably written by someone else, and likely have some basis in reality given people don't join terrorist organisations for fun.
 
We saw Ozpin's council and Lisa Lavender is on the news, another high profile job, and sicne when did Ozpin or Ironwood's crew have any Faunus amongst them save as students in a vastly smaller number than the humans? Heck, Cinder's group only has Faunus because she bullied them into it.

Ozpin's council was otherwise mentioned: Ruby and Yang's relative (Qrow), Beacon's staff (Ozpin and Glynda) and Ironwood (as part of the headmasters).

This argument is tough to distinguish on an animation level versus a world-building one. In season 1, everyone other than main characters were black shrouds. In season 2, they had like six faces for extras and barely varied skin tones. Season 3 got a little bit better but was still in the same boat, I think this was actually the first introduction of Faunus extras. How many non-white people have we actually seen? Among major characters, only Yatsuhasi, Emerald, Fox and maybe Lie Ren. The argument here actually more strongly supports race discrimination than human/faunus.

It certainly could have, but we haven't actually been told when it happened so, and I am sorry if this seems rude, most of what you are suggesting is just assumptions, which there is from me as well of course.

Given how bare-bones RWBY is, we have to make extrapolations. We can't argue anything about faunus discrimination without it.

Also given how slow the progress of civil rights has been in our world I don't think Remnant just ousting the anti individuality movement would drastically alter things so that in 80 years there were barely any issues.

There's a difference between barely any issues and a large part of the movement willing to use indiscriminate genocide. I strongly suspect that if you gave BLM the power the White Fang had, they wouldn't engage in genocide even though they could. You need a fundamental anger that simply isn't present without massive, pervasive discrimination.

What I'm trying to say is that we don't see enough discrimination to justify the White Fang's extremism. I have zero doubt discrimination actually exists, but as a movement, the White Fang are far too violent and extreme for what we see. That's what's painting them in a bad light, not what they're doing, but what they're doing it in response to. You can (usually) sympathize with a movement if their people are being lynched or gunned down/bombed in the streets, but if they're arguing about abstract; 2x as likely to go to jail for crime, 3x more likely to be in poverty, etc, etc. it's harder.

Well for starters they didn't clear out Mountain Glenn, the place was crawling with Grimm to the point where RWBY initially weren't going to be allowed to go and based on the flashback episode Cinder has been bank rolling them since taking over with Dust and money and then Roman's crime spree got them tons of Dust and mechs. Plus they only seem to have a small number of people beyond basic mook level, Adam, Blake, the lieutenant and that one who had daggers that managed to land a hit on Blake before immediately getting stomped by Weiss. Plus they seem to operate outside the kingdoms so that'd be a good skill increasing ground for the survivors.

They managed to secure at least the basement to the point where they could hold untrained recruits. Vale couldn't do that, they couldn't even evacuate the residents before they were forced to seal it.

Ugh, Cinder. So not only does she have a way to control the Grimm but she has access to funds and Dust on the level of one of the kingdoms' armies as well. Even if she's bankrolling them, they had to have something before that. Adam and Blake were hitting trains and they didn't even need the Dust; Adam wanted it blown up so they weren't hurting for resources.

Cinder's only been involved for a few months, tops. That isn't enough time to train all of their people, program the mechs, train pilots, get repair crews, etc. All of that technical expertise was something they would've needed to acquire before her intervention. While all of that doesn't count as lines in a bank statement, human capital is hugely important and extremely costly. For example, a combat pilot costs $6 million per year and (to fly a bodunk plane, not a top-of-the-line jet) requires over 2 years to train. A combat soldier would run $850,000 to $1.4 million to upkeep and training starts at a quarter million each. Training someone to the level of a hunter takes at least four years plus an unknown amount of time in a pre-Academy combat school. A modern military is expensive in terms of what it demands from the people in it. A severely marginalized group won't have access to all of the education and experience necessary to do it.

At the same time, it might only be that Cinder's intervention is what allowed the White Fang to become a genocidal threat. All of their mooks (aside from being a genre conceit) were improperly or barely trained. They had a small core of Adams, Blakes and WF Lieutenants and then instantly ballooned as soon as they had a chance and threw all those poorly trained recent recruits away like fodder (they were directed to Mountain Glen in the WF rally, after all). This actually makes them look more aggressive and dangerous, not less. This implies that things are so bad that they're willing to kill innocent faunus and that they need to act now. We don't see that.

I imagine the White Fang were given some BS explanation about how the use of Grimm in the battles would work or that they've adopted a "if you aren't with us you're against us" view which is fairly common to extremist groups. Though apparently the Fang would have been willing to ditch Cinder iff not for Adam so he may have helped bully and convince them into going along with the plan.

So instead of an entire equality movement being genocidal, they're merely lead by psychotic abusers. The more I think about this, the worse it seems like the White Fang were integrated in the story. RWBY's story is very... actually only somewhat character driven and it doesn't feel like someone's thought through the implications of their world building.
 
My point was more that his statements were, probably written by someone else, and likely have some basis in reality given people don't join terrorist organisations for fun.

A basis, sure. They wouldn't exist as a group if there was no basis. But given the audience they're trying to play to, we have no idea how much Roman was exaggerating or anything of the sort. Roman is biased, and this is hardly a neutral audience. Of course he's gonna say that life is terrible and all the Faunus are being oppressed. He'd get chased off the stage if he said anything else. It doesn't reflect in the slightest what the reality of the situation might be.

At the very least, like I said in the first place, using Roman's speech as evidence should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
Ozpin's council was otherwise mentioned: Ruby and Yang's relative (Qrow), Beacon's staff (Ozpin and Glynda) and Ironwood (as part of the headmasters).

This argument is tough to distinguish on an animation level versus a world-building one. In season 1, everyone other than main characters were black shrouds. In season 2, they had like six faces for extras and barely varied skin tones. Season 3 got a little bit better but was still in the same boat, I think this was actually the first introduction of Faunus extras. How many non-white people have we actually seen? Among major characters, only Yatsuhasi, Emerald, Fox and maybe Lie Ren. The argument here actually more strongly supports race discrimination than human/faunus.
Sorry by Council I was really referring to Vale's which I con't think showed any Faunus. But I was also referring to Ozpin's cabal who only seem to be humans and Glynda herself uses terms like ;human history' which feels oddly specific.

It may be just a case of the animation but we can't know for sure, and in this case I'm willing to look at it as being an example of how few Faunus can make it into higher education. Though I understand if others don't like that rationale.

Given how bare-bones RWBY is, we have to make extrapolations. We can't argue anything about faunus discrimination without it.
True, true, but there's also a certain point where head canons can drift into being a bit too specific, I likely do this too.


There's a difference between barely any issues and a large part of the movement willing to use indiscriminate genocide. I strongly suspect that if you gave BLM the power the White Fang had, they wouldn't engage in genocide even though they could. You need a fundamental anger that simply isn't present without massive, pervasive discrimination.

What I'm trying to say is that we don't see enough discrimination to justify the White Fang's extremism. I have zero doubt discrimination actually exists, but as a movement, the White Fang are far too violent and extreme for what we see. That's what's painting them in a bad light, not what they're doing, but what they're doing it in response to. You can (usually) sympathize with a movement if their people are being lynched or gunned down/bombed in the streets, but if they're arguing about abstract; 2x as likely to go to jail for crime, 3x more likely to be in poverty, etc, etc. it's harder.
To be fair do we know if the White Fang is that big? I mean we saw one camp in the Forever Fall and maybe two, three hundred people at the rally if we're generous, and the White Fang is apparently messing with other more peaceful protests as well.

I don't disagree, in the broad strokes, I mostly just feel than one can extrapolate a bit more than is sometimes done for the situation of that makes sense.

They managed to secure at least the basement to the point where they could hold untrained recruits. Vale couldn't do that, they couldn't even evacuate the residents before they were forced to seal it.
True, but they also had Cinder's backing, its possible she managed to limit the Grimm to not being super violent and they did have a bunch of Paladins and powerful fighters with them.

Ugh, Cinder. So not only does she have a way to control the Grimm but she has access to funds and Dust on the level of one of the kingdoms' armies as well. Even if she's bankrolling them, they had to have something before that. Adam and Blake were hitting trains and they didn't even need the Dust; Adam wanted it blown up so they weren't hurting for resources.
I was just noting that in the White Fang camp we really only saw the uniforms, some guns and tents, not much else, no Bullhead's and Blake and Adam's bombs were likely pretty small given Adam had to be carrying them all for Blake to not know the plan so I think its fair to assume Cinder is the one offering them most of their out of context resources at the moment and later Roman with his string of thefts. As to blowing it up, yeah that doesn't seem very practical, its possible he was more interested in making a statement than gaining resources, heck what if Blake thought they were meant to be robbing it and not blowing it up, this being an example of Adam's bloodlust?


Cinder's only been involved for a few months, tops. That isn't enough time to train all of their people, program the mechs, train pilots, get repair crews, etc. All of that technical expertise was something they would've needed to acquire before her intervention. While all of that doesn't count as lines in a bank statement, human capital is hugely important and extremely costly. For example, a combat pilot costs $6 million per year and (to fly a bodunk plane, not a top-of-the-line jet) requires over 2 years to train. A combat soldier would run $850,000 to $1.4 million to upkeep and training starts at a quarter million each. Training someone to the level of a hunter takes at least four years plus an unknown amount of time in a pre-Academy combat school. A modern military is expensive in terms of what it demands from the people in it. A severely marginalized group won't have access to all of the education and experience necessary to do it.

At the same time, it might only be that Cinder's intervention is what allowed the White Fang to become a genocidal threat. All of their mooks (aside from being a genre conceit) were improperly or barely trained. They had a small core of Adams, Blakes and WF Lieutenants and then instantly ballooned as soon as they had a chance and threw all those poorly trained recent recruits away like fodder (they were directed to Mountain Glen in the WF rally, after all). This actually makes them look more aggressive and dangerous, not less. This implies that things are so bad that they're willing to kill innocent faunus and that they need to act now. We don't see that.
I think Cinder stole the mechs and they may have a certain amount of idiot proofing given Roman could drive one despite presumably not having the training. Plus if they are in storage all the time until activated they may not need much maintenance. At this point it seems the WF is trying to go for quantity over quality with their recruitment drives and using the Grimm to make up the difference.

I agree with the second half, though remember apparently the WF might have ditched Cinder after a bunch of their people got killed until Adam showed up so the situation may be more complicated than it looks and the mooks themselves may be as much victims of their choices or situations and leaders as anything else.

So instead of an entire equality movement being genocidal, they're merely lead by psychotic abusers. The more I think about this, the worse it seems like the White Fang were integrated in the story. RWBY's story is very... actually only somewhat character driven and it doesn't feel like someone's thought through the implications of their world building.
That is a possible problem. I always thought the White Fang being an IRA analogue could have been a good way to use them if portraying the ugliness of more blatant discrimination was not something they wanted to address.

A basis, sure. They wouldn't exist as a group if there was no basis. But given the audience they're trying to play to, we have no idea how much Roman was exaggerating or anything of the sort. Roman is biased, and this is hardly a neutral audience. Of course he's gonna say that life is terrible and all the Faunus are being oppressed. He'd get chased off the stage if he said anything else. It doesn't reflect in the slightest what the reality of the situation might be.

At the very least, like I said in the first place, using Roman's speech as evidence should be taken with a grain of salt.
A grain of salt maybe, but do you think people would be willing to join a terrorist organisation where there's a good chance they'll die if the problems weren't severe?
 
Sorry by Council I was really referring to Vale's which I con't think showed any Faunus. But I was also referring to Ozpin's cabal who only seem to be humans and Glynda herself uses terms like ;human history' which feels oddly specific.

Wait, we did we ever see Vale's council? I was pretty certain they weren't depicted.

To be fair do we know if the White Fang is that big? I mean we saw one camp in the Forever Fall and maybe two, three hundred people at the rally if we're generous, and the White Fang is apparently messing with other more peaceful protests as well.

One of the shots shows them stacked up 17 wide by 14 deep and that didn't even show the entirety of the group, some were still off-screen with about a 25% of them being new recruits (so ~100 newbies) if they manage to hold a rally like that even once a month, it's huge. 100 recruits a month is pretty good for a guerilla group that doesn't directly fight. If they were moving in operatives from other kingdoms, or those who were born outside, they could likely concentrate a lot of force.

It's hard to tell how large a force they are relative to the Kingdoms. If we assume a population of 10 million (half the size of the state of New York) and a standard army mobilization rate (1%) then they'll have 10,000 in each kingdoms' armed soldiers. If they have a constant we're-fighting-world-war-two size army, then they might manage 30,000 each.

True, but they also had Cinder's backing, its possible she managed to limit the Grimm to not being super violent and they did have a bunch of Paladins and powerful fighters with them.

She wasn't there though. Most of her time during Season 2 was spent at Beacon. The Paladins would've run into maintenance issues, and I think the only powerful fighter there was the Lieutenant. Adam wasn't there during the Breach and since this is only a subset of the plan, I honestly think he'd delegate.

I was just noting that in the White Fang camp we really only saw the uniforms, some guns and tents, not much else, no Bullhead's and Blake and Adam's bombs were likely pretty small given Adam had to be carrying them all for Blake to not know the plan so I think its fair to assume Cinder is the one offering them most of their out of context resources at the moment and later Roman with his string of thefts. As to blowing it up, yeah that doesn't seem very practical, its possible he was more interested in making a statement than gaining resources, heck what if Blake thought they were meant to be robbing it and not blowing it up, this being an example of Adam's bloodlust?

It's hard to tell if we see the entire encampment, since they're terrorists, they have good reason to camouflage. You don't just park vehicles wherever, the motor pool would be laid out ahead of time and everything organized, Cinder was at the command center. They had to have trucks or air craft if they were expecting to make off with a sizeable amount of Dust. Roman was literally securing Dust by the shipping container with bullheads so I don't see why the Fang would be taking less when they ambush a Schnee train. Given Grimm, vehicles might be outright necessary to move outside the kingdoms.

Honestly, the reach of Cinder's conspiracy really annoys me. She has backing on the scale of a country with the amount of military power, Dust and money she can bring it. Grimm, Salem especially, have no need for any of that. I wonder if she's being backed outright by Mistral. It would explain how she was able to operate so freely and yet no one ever called her on not attending Mistral's Academy.

I think Blake thought they were robing it, IIRC from the Black trailer. When I said Adam wanted to blow the Dust on the train up, I was being literal. He wasn't carrying a bomb but was going to improvise one from all the Dust on the train. The original plan was likely he and Blake neutralize the defenders, stop the train and then the WF come in and clean up all the Dust before backup arrives.

I think Cinder stole the mechs and they may have a certain amount of idiot proofing given Roman could drive one despite presumably not having the training. Plus if they are in storage all the time until activated they may not need much maintenance. At this point it seems the WF is trying to go for quantity over quality with their recruitment drives and using the Grimm to make up the difference.

Roman also lost to RWBY. The two Paladins on autopilot were fighting evenly with CFVY, WB, SSSN, NR and a bunch of minor teams from the tournament at the end of the season for a while and more coming up was taken as a serious threat. Seeing that, I think he piloted it badly. The mechs were used in defense of the camp, like you suggested, and likely had to repaired and undergone preventative maintenance because of that and training. Even if military hardware isn't being used, it still has to have maintenance. Most tech spends longer in maintenance that it does being used.
 
Wait, we did we ever see Vale's council? I was pretty certain they weren't depicted.
Sort of, they popped up here at the end of S2


One of the shots shows them stacked up 17 wide by 14 deep and that didn't even show the entirety of the group, some were still off-screen with about a 25% of them being new recruits (so ~100 newbies) if they manage to hold a rally like that even once a month, it's huge. 100 recruits a month is pretty good for a guerilla group that doesn't directly fight. If they were moving in operatives from other kingdoms, or those who were born outside, they could likely concentrate a lot of force.

It's hard to tell how large a force they are relative to the Kingdoms. If we assume a population of 10 million (half the size of the state of New York) and a standard army mobilization rate (1%) then they'll have 10,000 in each kingdoms' armed soldiers. If they have a constant we're-fighting-world-war-two size army, then they might manage 30,000 each.
Do we know if they hold these once a month? I mean, they didn't have that many fighters in Mountain Glenn or Beacon.

She wasn't there though. Most of her time during Season 2 was spent at Beacon. The Paladins would've run into maintenance issues, and I think the only powerful fighter there was the Lieutenant. Adam wasn't there during the Breach and since this is only a subset of the plan, I honestly think he'd delegate.
True, but she wasn't there to get the Grimm onto the Bullhead's either so presumably she can give somewhat long term orders. Would they have though? I mean it was maybe a month or two at most before The Breach happened and they all seemed to be in storage. Plus they had Roman and Neo as well.


It's hard to tell if we see the entire encampment, since they're terrorists, they have good reason to camouflage. You don't just park vehicles wherever, the motor pool would be laid out ahead of time and everything organized, Cinder was at the command center. They had to have trucks or air craft if they were expecting to make off with a sizeable amount of Dust. Roman was literally securing Dust by the shipping container with bullheads so I don't see why the Fang would be taking less when they ambush a Schnee train. Given Grimm, vehicles might be outright necessary to move outside the kingdoms.

Honestly, the reach of Cinder's conspiracy really annoys me. She has backing on the scale of a country with the amount of military power, Dust and money she can bring it. Grimm, Salem especially, have no need for any of that. I wonder if she's being backed outright by Mistral. It would explain how she was able to operate so freely and yet no one ever called her on not attending Mistral's Academy.

I think Blake thought they were robing it, IIRC from the Black trailer. When I said Adam wanted to blow the Dust on the train up, I was being literal. He wasn't carrying a bomb but was going to improvise one from all the Dust on the train. The original plan was likely he and Blake neutralize the defenders, stop the train and then the WF come in and clean up all the Dust before backup arrives.
I'm not saying they couldn't have some vehicles, but given Cinder was overly offering them money and resources and the White Fang have never pulled anything like this before I think they're more reliant on her than having lots of resources to pull from,but we're bother operating on assumptions to a degree there.

I;m not sure its on the scale of a country, it seems like she has maybe thirty or so Bullhead's, compare that to Ironwood's fleet, which is only a portion of Atlas's full fleet and she's really not on their level. Its possible she does have Mistral's backing, though I figured they attended for a little while if only to help their cover but that's a guess, but we don't really know where her resources come from as of yet, we just know she has them.

He told Blake to set the charges so presumably they had something to help blow up the Dust I feel. But yeah I figure robbing it was the normal, sane, plan and Adam wanted to blast it because he's like that.

Roman also lost to RWBY. The two Paladins on autopilot were fighting evenly with CFVY, WB, SSSN, NR and a bunch of minor teams from the tournament at the end of the season for a while and more coming up was taken as a serious threat. Seeing that, I think he piloted it badly. The mechs were used in defense of the camp, like you suggested, and likely had to repaired and undergone preventative maintenance because of that and training. Even if military hardware isn't being used, it still has to have maintenance. Most tech spends longer in maintenance that it does being used.
To be fair Roman was using a prototype. True, but they had also been fighting Grimm, Atlesian Knights and White Fang before taking on the new model of mechs and Velvet tore through two with ease and Weiss did pretty well despite her exhaustion. Though there probably would be some need for maintenance good point.
 
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