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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • w34v3r said:
    I think ultimately this is a big part of why things went downhill so quickly. Without Oz and Glynda to be respectable peers he was left with Atlesian politicians, and a bunch of enthusiastic yes men/women instead of a real support network.
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    I mean he also lied to and backstabbed Ozpin and Glynda too.
    gman391 said:
    So he doubles down on what he knows the immediate consideration of 'how to defend Atlas' rather than working to accomplish any of the strategic or political goals he should be having.
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    This is a brilliant breakdown kudos and thanks for sharing!

    Also we got some V9 related news and new Grimm Campaign material coming!

    View: https://www.tumblr.com/luminecho/742138182498385920?source=share


    View: https://www.tumblr.com/cream-and-five-sugars/742138031694282752?source=share
     
    I don't think he considers Oscar to be Ozpin, not on any emotional or practical level anyway. When did he lie to Glynda? They didn't even have contact until everything has already gone to shit.
     
    ...
    He offered to help, that's not lying, presumption yes, but not lying.

    It might be backstabbing if he had a prior arrangement with Glynda and Oz, but even if he did, after a big incident like the breach an additional level of security is far from unreasonable. This hardly seems like lying and back stabbing. Over reliance on an inflexible military that really can't be trusted to run a lemonade stand properly, sure I'll grant you that, but Ironwood isn't some sort of schemer. His life would be so much easier if he was.
     
    No it's backstabbing because he turned into a little pissbaby when he didn't get his way so he ran over oz's head to get his way
     
    To play devil's advocate, the recent lapses in security around that time would make several people question Ozpin's ability to adequately protect the festival. Plus, nobody expected the CCT tower to get hacked or for Cinder to literally airdrop Grimm into the area.
     
    daedalus725 said:
    No it's backstabbing because he turned into a little pissbaby when he didn't get his way so he ran over oz's head to get his way
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    Again unless there was a specific arrangement between the two in place I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that this is anything but just James being a sledgehammer in a world full of China displays.
     
    Mazeka said:
    To play devil's advocate, the recent lapses in security around that time would make several people question Ozpin's ability to adequately protect the festival. Plus, nobody expected the CCT tower to get hacked or for Cinder to literally airdrop Grimm into the area.
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    Except the CCT was already being guarded by Ironwood's men, who completely failed to either stop or find the intruder, and at the Breach his forces were more of a mop-up force cleaning up a job that was already wrapping up, so it's not like Ironwood was actually doing anything to mark him as any more effective. Frankly, I'm willing to bet the Council was just desperate to look like they were doing something about it, so they went with Ironwood's suggestion that he get Ozpin's job because if Ironwood's good at anything, it's making a big, showy display of force.
     
    1. He didn't get Ozpin's job. He provided supplemental security.
    2. Unless Ozpin is being supremely petty, his security was already in place anyway, and at worst James's people were acting as trip wires to alert Ozpin's people.
     
    Mazeka said:
    To play devil's advocate, the recent lapses in security around that time would make several people question Ozpin's ability to adequately protect the festival. Plus, nobody expected the CCT tower to get hacked or for Cinder to literally airdrop Grimm into the area.
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    To play opposite of devil's advocate man marched an army to the Olympics & a regular ass criminal was using one of his mech suits
    w34v3r said:
    Again unless there was a specific arrangement between the two in place I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that this is anything but just James being a sledgehammer in a world full of China displays.
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    You need a specific agreement or not try and take over others projects.

    Leingod said:
    Except the CCT was already being guarded by Ironwood's men, who completely failed to either stop or find the intruder, and at the Breach his forces were more of a mop-up force cleaning up a job that was already wrapping up, so it's not like Ironwood was actually doing anything to mark him as any more effective. Frankly, I'm willing to bet the Council was just desperate to look like they were doing something about it, so they went with Ironwood's suggestion that he get Ozpin's job because if Ironwood's good at anything, it's making a big, showy display of force.
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    As I alluded I got the gut feeling ironwood was always going to try and pull for the leadership I his is one of the character songs that call himself a hero which of the other ones I remember are not people you want to be lumped with
    w34v3r said:
    1. He didn't get Ozpin's job. He provided supplemental security.
    2. Unless Ozpin is being supremely petty, his security was already in place anyway, and at worst James's people were acting as trip wires to alert Ozpin's people.
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    1. No he took it over
    2. No because the council directly replaces ozpin with Ironwood ozpin's security get pulled out
     
    Ozpin's security is his past and present students, who all would have had legitimate reasons to be nearby whether or not they were operating officially.

    Unless he had a spare army nobody ever mentioned.
     
    w34v3r said:
    Ozpin's security is his past and present students, who all would have had legitimate reasons to be nearby whether or not they were operating officially.

    Unless he had a spare army nobody ever mentioned.
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    Do you know the neat about students as they cannot be controlled like robots and to turn on citizens
    Pugman said:
    Qrow at least makes it clear that he himself sees Ironwood becoming in charge of security as a stab in the back.
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    And we know ironwood sees anything but following orders as betrayal if down to him
     
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    Yes, and there's exactly nothing keeping them from operating as security regardless of ironwood and the council.
     
    ... I'm having trouble connecting that truth with the bit you quoted.

    He is in fact a sledgehammer, this much is for certain.
     
    It's a very early warning sign, someone being argued down from heavy handed measures seeking out the authority to unilaterally enact those measures is incredibly dangerous.

    His response to being told he was wrong was to begin trying to cut the people telling him he was wrong out of the decision making process.
     
    I think Ironwood's arc is fascinating because in some ways his earlier warning signs can fly under a lot of people's radars just because of who the other side of the argument happens to be.

    He shows up in a foreign kingdom with a big-ass army, he complains about Ozpin to the Vale Council for weeks before the Breach and gets given control of security at the Vytal Festival, but if the viewer sees Ozpin as being too passive/reactive like Ironwood does (not an entirely unfounded criticism, but the opposite extreme—to say nothing of the way he went about getting authority for it—is not the answer) the red flags might not get picked up (Because clearly he's doing it for a good cause, right? And to some degree, at least in his belief, he is.)
    His badass moments during the Fall of Beacon might also mitigate early suspicion, because despite his android army getting hacked he and the human parts of his army come across as being on the side of "good", supervising the evacuation from Amity and fighting alongside Qrow and Glynda against both hacked robot forces and the Grimm.

    Then his arguments with Jacques in Volume 4 show the problem with that one ClickHole headline: Even if the point being made is valid, you're not likely to listen to the "worst person you know".
    Ironwood is actively climbing the paranoia diving board in order to jump into the pool of full-on authoritarianism, but the fact his most vocal detractor has transparently selfish reasons for calling him out means that most people—already biased against Jacques, for valid reasons mind you, but still biased—might wave off Jacques' criticism entirely as just the whining of a greedy businessman.
    Actually, it's really clever how while Ironwood gets worse as Weiss leaves (going from a Dust embargo to outright closing the borders once he learns something's planned in Mistral), the events of the charity ball ("She's the only one making sense around here" vs. Slap + House Arrest + Disinherit combo) will leave the viewer biased towards him and against Jacques.

    Then, of course, this all comes front and center in the Atlas arc as we see the guy slowly unravel through both his own flaws and deliberate acts by Watts and Tyrian aggravating his paranoia, with the coup-de-grace of Cinder leaving the chess piece to hit him right in the PTSD just after he was convinced to take the risk of trust.

    The seeds of disaster were there practically from his debut, but their growth could be missed if one wasn't paying attention and actually thinking about the implications of "This guy has two votes?"
    It's beautiful.
     
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