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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • erttheking said:
    A post ago I was "inane" for having issues with the suggested solutions. Now it's just "well they can be wrong"?
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    Yeah I'm not getting a lot of consistency here, like first it was "The rewrites make Faunus a real culture" and now its "Well the rewrite that gave Faunus heat didn't do that but the complaint is valid" which is like, an entirely different conversation and also I categorically refuse to take the opinion of a person who gave Faunus heat cycles complaining about he writing of Faunus seriously. I wouldn't take them seriously if they said the sky was blue.
     
    Let us also not forget that early RWBY was a hot mess because;
    1 - NONE of the Rooster Teeth group had ever done something like this before.
    2 - Shoestring budgets
    3 - They didn't have a 100% set plan
    4 - Monty and The Rule of Cool
    etc. etc. etc.
     
    Pugman said:
    Let us also not forget that early RWBY was a hot mess because;
    1 - NONE of the Rooster Teeth group had ever done something like this before.
    2 - Shoestring budgets
    3 - They didn't have a 100% set plan
    4 - Monty and The Rule of Cool
    etc. etc. etc.
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    This is another thing, most of the critics treat any minor discrepancy or flaw like its some horrific cardinal sin against storytelling and the public at large and like, even ignoring that media consumption is not substitute for activism, the fact is, it is such an over dramatic response. I'd ask what these people think of DC having Damian form a POC super hero team to fight racism only to end the story with a suicide bomb strapped t his chest, but I imagine they wouldn't care.
     
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    Zam said:
    Except we are talking about said "fixes" so I don't see how I am wrong.

    A: As noted, there was already meta floating around about him being an abuser and also generally shit before V3, they just got ignored y the fandom at large because, ooh edgy sword boy. Also objectively, Adam was barely a presence in the story, so the fact you reached a bunch of baseless headcanons about his character isn't the writers fault.

    You stating your opinion as objective fact is both equal parts annoying and frankly rude and also, as I highlighted, in V1 we explicitly have Weiss referencing her fathers anger and we focus n on her literal facial scar.

    C: You do grasp we are talking about these rewrites right, not anything else?
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    A. And what presence he was in the story actively acts against the narrative that he was a psychopathic abuser who didn't care about the cause at all. I can respect that people actually got the development right, but that doesn't mean it was adequately foreshadowed. In big fandoms you'll have fans asserting pretty much any development. I've invited you to make the case, you are free to do so.
    B. This is inaccurate. I just rewatched the scene, there is no zoom in on her scar. There is a side profile of her face, just as there has been throughout that portion of the scene, because she is the one talking. There is then a cut to a clenched first, because it is depicting her frustration. At no point in that exchange does the scar become prominent or emphasized in the cinematography. Also I thought it was obvious that it was my opinion, because I'm the one typing it. "Objectively" in A is just that it is absolutely a fact that in Adam's depiction in the narrative, he is absolutely not portrayed the way he was in the finale of V3. You I think agree with this, since you're solely talking about Blake's POV.
    C. See below.
    Zam said:
    You do know Penny & Sun were Monty's idea write and it explicitly went against the original plan to have Weiss & Yang involved right?
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    I'm not sure why this matters?

    erttheking said:
    A post ago I was "inane" for having issues with the suggested solutions. Now it's just "well they can be wrong"?
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    I did not call you inane. I called the criticism of critiques of bloat because somebody has preferences over which characters to give more or less screentime to inane. Also I read this
    erttheking said:
    Slashing down the cast they don't like and bloating up the ones they do, let's be honest. Because for all the talk they have of cast bloat, the most common phrase out of them is "wasted potential, wasted potential."
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    As applying to most-to-all of this form of criticism, especially since it was in response to somebody talking about "most criticism" of RWBY. Was I mistaken?
     
    Based Bean said:
    B. If you want to make the case that RWBY actively portrayed Weiss is a victim of an abusive household prior to Season 4, I'd be really interested in seeing it, because it's just not there.
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    Not to touch on anything else but there were indicators pre Volume 4; pretty much everything with her money being cut off and Winter talking to her about it indicated that Jacques was some level of controlling and/or abusive and that was an active plot arc for her in Volume 3. There are arguably smaller indicators at other points but those it could be argued aren't 'active' until you get onscreen confirmation.
     
    hellgodsrus said:
    Not to touch on anything else but there were indicators pre Volume 4; pretty much everything with her money being cut off and Winter talking to her about it indicated that Jacques was some level of controlling and/or abusive and that was an active plot arc for her in Volume 3. There are arguably smaller indicators at other points but those it could be argued aren't 'active' until you get onscreen confirmation.
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    Perhaps my perspective is colored by the fact that I lived in a household with an actually emotionally abusive mother for several years, but I can't read the finances thing as anything more than kinda a controlling jerk that absolutely does not trend toward abuse. The plot arc for Volume 3 is absolutely that Weiss wants to get out of her father's thumb, but plenty of stories have that sort of narrative without the father figure being actively abusive, as is pretty clearly the characterization that they are going with from Volume 4 onward.
     
    Based Bean said:
    A. And what presence he was in the story actively acts against the narrative that he was a psychopathic abuser who didn't care about the cause at all. I can respect that people actually got the development right, but that doesn't mean it was adequately foreshadowed. In big fandoms you'll have fans asserting pretty much any development. I've invited you to make the case, you are free to do so.
    B. This is inaccurate. I just rewatched the scene, there is no zoom in on her scar. There is a side profile of her face, just as there has been throughout that portion of the scene, because she is the one talking. There is then a cut to a clenched first, because it is depicting her frustration. At no point in that exchange does the scar become prominent or emphasized in the cinematography. Also I thought it was obvious that it was my opinion, because I'm the one typing it. "Objectively" in A is just that it is absolutely a fact that in Adam's depiction in the narrative, he is absolutely not portrayed the way he was in the finale of V3. You I think agree with this, since you're solely talking about Blake's POV.
    C. See below.


    I'm not sure why this matters?


    I did not call you inane. I called the criticism of critiques of bloat because somebody has preferences over which characters to give more or less screentime to inane. Also I read this
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    A: Once again you are confusing your headcanons about a guy introduced having lied to his partner to get her to join him on a mission to enact mass murder for shits ang giggles, was dismissive of her obvious horror, bellowed and shouted at her and placed her in danger as a living shield and whom the Black trailer involves the MC escaping from, for actual canon content and then blaming the show for it. Adam was always garbage, you missing that is not the writers fault.
    B: I'll concede to misremembering the scar part, but otherwise my point remains unchanged, we are only invited to sympathize with Weiss when she talks about her father.
    C: Mostly because you are blaming the writers while ignoring all context, details and information available to create a narrative that frames them as maliciously incompetent at best.

    Also the fact you didn't bother addressing anything else I said to me indicates you don't have a counter argument.

    As pointed out, slashing the MC cast down so that they can focus on pedos and abusers is rather telling of these "Critics" priorities.
    hellgodsrus said:
    Not to touch on anything else but there were indicators pre Volume 4; pretty much everything with her money being cut off and Winter talking to her about it indicated that Jacques was some level of controlling and/or abusive and that was an active plot arc for her in Volume 3. There are arguably smaller indicators at other points but those it could be argued aren't 'active' until you get onscreen confirmation.
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    Hell the simple fact she's attending a school on another continent should be rather telling to anyone who reflects on the media they engage with as well as her desperation to avoid talking to him in V2.
     
    Based Bean said:
    I did not call you inane. I called the criticism of critiques of bloat because somebody has preferences over which characters to give more or less screentime to inane. Also I read this
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    You didn't call me inane, you called what I said inane. A difference so small it's barely worth pointing out. And I'm still wondering how we did the 180 from this being inane to "well suggestions can be wrong, so what?"

    I'm very clearly disputing Excalibur's claim and focusing on how, for me, the most common criticism I hear is about wasted potential. Which would still lead to bloat. The problem with bloat is always a case of four lines always waiting, the problem is not solved by replacing one person waiting with another

    Based Bean said:
    I can't read the finances thing as anything more than kinda a controlling jerk that absolutely does not trend toward abuse.
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    I don't want to get too sucked into this argument, but I just want to say that financial abuse is 100% a thing.
     
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    Based Bean said:
    Perhaps my perspective is colored by the fact that I lived in a household with an actually emotionally abusive mother for several years, but I can't read the finances thing as anything more than kinda a controlling jerk that absolutely does not trend toward abuse. The plot arc for Volume 3 is absolutely that Weiss wants to get out of her father's thumb, but plenty of stories have that sort of narrative without the father figure being actively abusive, as is pretty clearly the characterization that they are going with from Volume 4 onward.
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    You not viewing something as abuse due to your personal experiences doesn't really mean much, I've been dealing with having to be the parent for adults in my life since a kid, but I don't throw that out there to win Yang debates and also Economic abuse is a thing, so yeah, you not viewing it as abuse is largely irrelevant in my eyes.
     
    erttheking said:
    You didn't call me inane, you called what I said inane. A difference so small it's barely worth pointing out. And I'm still wondering how we did the 180 from this being inane to "well suggestions can be wrong, so what?"
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    You don't think there's a difference between calling something said dumb and calling that person dumb? If so I guess we just have very different perspectives and I dunno that we can reconcile them.

    Also, okay, I'm trying to back up a bit here. Do you feel that your criticisms that kicked off this debate apply to basically all critiques that RWBY have bloat, just a decent amount of them, just the examples we're talking about, none of the above? Because in the context of the argument and the way you worded it I assumed the first option.
    Zam said:
    I've been dealing with having to be the parent for adults in my life since a kid, but I don't throw that out there to win Yang debates
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    I was actually posting that in good faith as a way of noting that my perspective might be different due to my own personal experiences. Not everything in a discussion about a dumb cartoon is a way to score points, and I'm frankly insulted that you would think that i would ever use my emotional abuse in that way.
     
    Let's slow our roll here guys.

    The position: most rewrites are bad and filled with inane bloat about one off characters that don't matter and are in some way bad characters to focus on.

    isn't at all incompatible with the position of : Early RWBY really dropped the ball on establishing a lot of important character beats effectively. That due to their early and ongoing production issues they failed to live up to their full potential.

    Both can be true.
     
    All Possible signs of Weiss being an abuse victim I can think of during the early years

    Evidence A: The Arma Gigas fight in the White Trailer that left her with her scar, just to be allowed to go to Beacon.

    Evidence B: How Weiss described her father during her and Blake's talk in their dorm room about the White Fang.

    Evidence C: Weiss not wanting to be patched through to her father when she makes that call to look at documents about Dust shipments.

    Evidence D: Weiss making it very clear during Mountain Glenn that she knows her father is shit.

    Evidence E: Weiss ignoring Jac's calls and thus being cut from her money.

    Evidence F: Being taken back to Atlas after The Fall of Beacon, taken away from her friends after they are dead, injured, in a coma, etc.

    So basically all 3 seasons PLUS the pre-season teaser based on her, as well as her character songs, all point to shit being bad back home for her.

    In a way all 4 girls of Team RWBY have suffered some kind of abuse, with Ruby probably having the seemingly least trauma about it.
     
    Based Bean said:
    I was actually posting that in good faith as a way of noting that my perspective might be different due to my own personal experiences. Not everything in a discussion about a dumb cartoon is a way to score points, and I'm frankly insulted that you would think that i would ever use my emotional abuse in that way.
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    The fact you included "an actually" thus implying that the subject of discussion was not "actually" in an abusive situation to me indicated otherwise. Sorry if I am coming off as harsh here, but I am an extremely literal person (Due to my autism), especially when it comes to sentence structure and I literally cannot find a different way to read that initial statement given the words used and surrounding context.
     
    Based Bean said:
    Also, okay, I'm trying to back up a bit here. Do you feel that your criticisms that kicked off this debate apply to basically all critiques that RWBY have bloat, just a decent amount of them, just the examples we're talking about, none of the above? Because in the context of the argument and the way you worded it I assumed the first option
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    Ok, my apologies, backing up a bit myself.

    I feel like it applies to the critiques that talk about bloat and "this character deserves expansion" hand in hand. Which isn't all critiques, but a noticeable amount of them.
     
    Zam said:
    Yeah I'm not getting a lot of consistency here, like first it was "The rewrites make Faunus a real culture" and now its "Well the rewrite that gave Faunus heat didn't do that but the complaint is valid" which is like, an entirely different conversation and also I categorically refuse to take the opinion of a person who gave Faunus heat cycles complaining about he writing of Faunus seriously. I wouldn't take them seriously if they said the sky was blue.
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    There is also the fact that most of the times "make the Faunus a real culture" means "make the Faunus stereotypical [insert non-wasp group here]", bonus point if those changes reek of fetish or carry some racist implications.

    The sad thing is that if someone took it seriously and treated it with respect one could some interesting things outside of porn, as the top of my head you could use it to make comments on the ability of intoxicated to give consent or to criticize the "Boys will be boys" mentality, I just don't think that most rewrites will do any of those things.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    1 and 2 could be gotten around. 3 and 4 seem to be the biggest issues.
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    I would say number 4 was the bigger issue since Monty's need for the rule of cool was detrimental to the story telling, for example as we all know the whole reveal of Penny being a Robot was meant to be in Volume 2 and not the end of 1. Then there was the whole Blake cutting the train in half because that would be cool till Miles and Kerry had him tone it back due to how it would look from a Power Level perspective.
     
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