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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • ZQFMGB said:
    What is that Salem design and why does it look weirdly horny
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    The waist and torso in general looking so skeletal doesn't help.
    Teen Spirit said:
    Yeah people need to stop making out like faunus are really psychological and biologically (Outside of their faunus trait) different from humans because it's really kind of gross.
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    I'm still not convinced the humans in modern RWBY aren't just Faunus with humans as their animal bit, possibly from Salem trying to bring back people at some point before leaving them alone when it didn't make anything better for her.
    StellarSeeker said:
    I actually dig the first version of the design a little bit, especially the weird insect hair decorations.
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    They do looks like something someone might actually wear if they were being a bit gaudy.
     
    The way Faunus and the White Fang were shown in The Beginning should have been a bit different, but yeah, that "remake" isn't exactly the right way.
     
    Estro said:
    But in an ostensibly serious rewrite, give the racial-minority and allegory for modern race relations heat cycles, I'm sure that has no implications whatsoever.
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    Yuuuuuuup! Not surprised though given they also insist that bigotry isn't real inside the US and also endorse transphobes, as seen:

    here:

    View: https://sir-adamus.tumblr.com/post/670407796013072384/ozpin-is-hazels-brother-in-fixing-rwby-hazel-was

    and here:

    View: https://sir-adamus.tumblr.com/post/670410437091803136/a-fun-detail-about-celtic-phoenix-he


    Plus in response to a queer woman joining the RWBY writing team, Celtic Phoenix's spent THREE HOURS insulting her and her work. And not even actually critiquing or even reading her writing, but cherrypicking reviews.

    View: https://sir-adamus.tumblr.com/post/670408971441602560/ozpin-is-hazels-brother-in-fixing-rwby-hazel-was


    Oh and this for added creep factor:
    "Remember how funny it was when they had the characters go to a bathhouse to have naked teenagers, had Roman call Weiss a man because her chest wasnt as big as the rest of the girls and called Ren a woman for having a slimmer appearance?"
     
    Why do people act like their fanfics are better than canon or are somehow Canon as it should have been. Cause this seems like something of a trend with RWBY. Like that weird one a while back that was based purely on trailers, got rid of Jaune and was some sort of detective work. Like just drop the rework aspect and just say you're making an AU fanfic, it's not a crime. Your fanfic is not in competition with the show, it will lose, badly.

    Like I'm aware my fanfic completely multiates Cinder's clear Cinderella themes and Canon handles her backstory far better, I don't care. I'm not trying to do better than the show, I'm just telling a story I want to tell with RWBY.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    Why do people act like their fanfics are better than canon or are somehow Canon as it should have been.
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    Except that's not actually the case with Celtic Phoenix? The post where they claimed he was "egotistical" didn't say "muh fanfic is better!". In fact, he never mentioned anything about it being better than canon.

    He said that he presented the idea of Roman being an Ozcarnation (which I think was stated before wasn't how the reincarnations work, but we'll have to wait for his version of Volume 6 to see if he acknowledges that rule and changes it) to several people and they were the ones who liked the idea. He didn't say "well, my idea is better because I said so", he just showed an idea to people and they liked it.

    This isn't helped with how Oscar had been treated. While we can yap all day about how him being replaceable is the entire point of his character arc, we also have to remember that said character arc took a backseat for Jaune's character arc. And that was without Ozpin occupying his mind at the time!

    Though, to argue against this change, it should be noted that the lead time he gives is about three Volumes (so when Volume 9 ends, he'll do 6) and the twist occurred during the 7-8 hiatus, after one of Oscar's major character moments happened (where he tried to talk down Ironwood all by himself and managed to get Ozpin to return in spite of failing). I can see where he comes from, but at the same time, I would have just kept Oscar (and have for the rewrites I did) or even used Jaune because of the whole Joan of Arc connection.

    To steer it back to your question, no one thinks that their fanfic is better than RWBY. It only comes off like that because of the words like "fixing" or "rewrite", but I mean...

    It's literally just fanfiction. People are getting salty over fanfiction.

    That said, the racism is a valid point to be angry about.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    It's literally just fanfiction. People are getting salty over fanfiction.
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    I mean the problem is the attention RWBY gets is very...divided. Like there's a lot of people, like myself, who think it's really good, well written (Not perfect but overall strong) and overall a very solidly made work with only a few minor flaws. Then you have what seems to be a basically a small cottage industry mainly on youtube who are basically dedicated to trashing the show. It doesn't help that a lot of the flaws people point to don't really seem like flaws. Take Ironwood's character arc for example. How many people on places like Spacebattles acted like RWBY where the bad guys and Ironwood got character assassinated when to most people here what occured with Ironwood in the last two arcs was him tumbling over a ledge he'd been dancing on since the beginning.
     
    RWBY had a very flawed beginning. Pointing that out and saying things could have been done better isn't a bad thing and some fans have been murderous towards ANY criticism at all
     
    LordYam said:
    RWBY had a very flawed beginning. Pointing that out and saying things could have been done better isn't a bad thing and some fans have been murderous towards ANY criticism at all
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    The problem is most of the people we're upset with have issues with current RWBY. These tend to be types who basically think it's all been downhill since volume 2 or 3.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Except that's not actually the case with Celtic Phoenix? The post where they claimed he was "egotistical" didn't say "muh fanfic is better!". In fact, he never mentioned anything about it being better than canon.
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    He explicitly went on in posts about how he "sees a lot of potential in RWBY" but feels it is "held back by Lack luster writing" and views his rewrite as better, or "Fixing" the series.



    Also its gross in general and he's a shitty person, as well as painfully stupid.

    Teen Spirit said:
    Then you have what seems to be a basically a small cottage industry mainly on youtube who are basically dedicated to trashing the show. It doesn't help that a lot of the flaws people point to don't really seem like flaws.
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    Plus, the idea that its 'just fanfiction' is false, this isn't like Masako-X's little dragon ball AU's where he dabbles in an idea for how the story might have gone. This is explicitly someone who hates everything the writers have done beyond the most broad concept of 'pretty girls fight monsters and also that one racist bully and that one racist criminal' creating a 'rewrite' with their followers for profit.
     
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    Zam said:
    Plus, the idea that its 'just fanfiction' is false, this isn't like Masako-X's little dragon ball AU's where he dabbles in an idea for how the story might have gone. This is explicitly someone who hates everything the writers have done beyond the most broad concept of 'pretty girls fight monsters and also that one racist bully and that one racist criminal' creating a 'rewrite' with their followers for profit.
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    I would've thought they couldn't profit off of it due to copyright? Unless you mean he's using Patreon?
     
    Zam said:
    He explicitly went on in posts about how he "sees a lot of potential in RWBY" but feels it is "held back by Lack luster writing" and views his rewrite as better, or "Fixing" the series.



    Also its gross in general and he's a shitty person, as well as painfully stupid.


    Plus, the idea that its 'just fanfiction' is false, this isn't like Masako-X's little dragon ball AU's where he dabbles in an idea for how the story might have gone. This is explicitly someone who hates everything the writers have done beyond the most broad concept of 'pretty girls fight monsters and also that one racist bully and that one racist criminal' creating a 'rewrite' with their followers for profit.
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    It's always amazing when you can tell when a fanwork comes from a place of genuine love of a work and an understanding of it (Team Four Star and Masako X), and when it comes from people that claim they are fans in a very lip service way (RWDE).
     
    1.) Building on Gollum: In the books Sam only starts to feel sympathetic after he himself feels the power of the ring. He takes it for a short time and has it for at most a few hours....and yet it takes every last bit of will to return it. When he encounters Gollum again he moves to finish him.....but than realizes that Gollum had the ring for centuries and that based on how much it took Sam when he had it for like three hours at most Gollum would have been even more warped. This ultimately causes him to spare Gollum's life.

    2.) Darth Vader's another example of redemption done well. It's made clear in ROTJ that he's a broken man who only stays evil because he thinks he can't ever go back and might as well go all in (it helps that the Dark Side is REALLY addictive and amplifies your worst traits). It's only when Luke reminds him what it means to be a Jedi, and seeing the only person who still believes in him being tortured that he finally decides to do something selfless (considering that he was putting his own life in danger and that it would have been easier to just do nothing it was a selfless choice). That's another reason it isn't galling. If you took every person in the galaxy who hated him, combined their hatred and than amplified it a billion fold.....it's still a small fraction of the hatred he feels for himself.

    3.) I mentioned how Terra and Catra only make the right choice after being put in situations when they have no other choice but to acknowledge that they're responsible for their own misery. In Terra's case her friends went all out, the person she betrayed them for viciously beat her for running from a loosing battle AND made her a living puppet, and she's repeatedly told "everything that happened is YOUR choice."

    4.) I do think something like that might happen with Cinder. Cinder suffers an even greater fall than Vols 3 and 5 and is basically broken. All her dreams have turned to ash and there's no way of getting her power back. In that situation maybe I can see her changing. That said at some point I see Salem coldly telling her "you are nothing", which breaks her.

    5.) One rewrite (which has both interesting ideas and genuine problems) had an interesting take on Cinder. She does realize that Salem is just using her as a pawn, realizes that Salem lied to her, feels regret for a lot of the things she's done and even contemplates a heel turn.....but ultimately her desire for power causes her to go "nah, I'll just stab Salem in the back and usurp her instead." A bit like Demandred from Wheel of Time. He has a chance to be a hero by betraying the shadow, as well as genuine adoration and love from a certain group.....but the guy he's jealous of will still be alive so he decides "nah killing Lews Thern is more important".

    The same rewrite also does this with Adam. He's shown to have an absolutely TRAGIC backstory, but he also chooses to inflict the exact same crimes on any Faunus who dares disagree with him (holding a sword to Sun's six year old sister's throat to force the heroes to surrender even though his backstory involved the death of his own little sister, carving off the animal parts of Faunus who disagree with him even though he was traumatized by being forced to see his mothers horns being cut off, and callously setting up any Faunus who disagreed to be horribly dismembered even though his own backstory involved the SDC massacring the workers at the illegal camp he suffered in to cover their own rears.) Adam still refuses the chance to do what's right and when the time comes for him to be taken to Limbo (which is basically Super hell) Adam doesn't even dispute that he deserves it.
     
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    LordYam said:
    1.)
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    Interesting info to be sure, thanks for sharing!

    An aside, but I think the Gollum fate would be the most thematically fitting way for Cinder to go out if there's no redemption for her.
    IE, she somehow gets forced to team up with the cast for a bit cos she might be against Salem for her own reasons, (Which seems plausible given Sacrifice & the commentary)
    We get to see flashes of potential goodness in her, the cast get a grasp of exactly how she turned out as she did... But in the end a sudden last grasp for power costs Cinder her life, meaning she's not just beaten up and murdered by the cast, but it hoist by her own petard.

    2.) I'm less sympathetic to Darth Vader myself, but interesting post, but (waves hand) this is off topic.
     
    Funny thing about Star Wars. George Lucas was unabashedly liberal (the rebels are the viet Cong and the US is the empire) and antifascist (the imperials are shown to be both cruel and pathetic). Yet a lot of conservatives miss the point completely
     
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