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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Lack of doom upon ye mortal souls!

Update delayed.

Roomba said:
Here's a random thought from someone too busy this past week to read any of the thread, about modelling smart and competent people.

I assume that the way the QMs model, say, Ami, is that they look at an event, and ask themselves: Would Ami have predicted this ahead of time? They look at a particular political strategy employed by someone: Would Ami have thought of this and accounted for it. I don't think there's a better way of doing it while keeping spoon consumption at realistic levels.

The thought I had was that a way to improve this, is to assign some difficulty to the task, and roll for it, preferably with the remote possibility of a natural 1. That might seem like it would lead to unrealistic outcomes - surely Ami wouldn't miss something fairly obvious - but I think this perception simply doesn't account for the size of the problem space. Ami is undoubtedly doing a great many things, juggling a lot of spinning plates, trying to model tons of visible and invisible actors, and generally keeping very busy. She has a spoon limit as well and will start making mistakes as she runs out. Nobody is above conservation of energy.

This thought was brought to you by having to deal with the heavy fallout of a very smart and competent person with a spotless track record making an obvious and critical mistake, simply because they took on too many responsibilities and ran out of spoons to cover it all.
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The beauty of being Ami is that nobody can tell whether what you're making is a mistake, something that looks like a mistake but is actually part of a greater unseen plan, and/or something done purely to mess with people.
 
Velorien said:
Lack of doom upon ye mortal souls!

Update delayed.

The beauty of being Ami is that nobody can tell whether what you're making is a mistake, something that looks like a mistake but is actually part of a greater unseen plan, and/or something done purely to mess with people.
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AIEEEEEEEeeeeee oh wait, it's delayed.

*delayed screaming in Kagome*
 
eaglejarl said:
Sorry to hear it! I've been on both sides of that situation and it's infuriating either way.

Yes, that would be a more realistic way to model characters. I'm disinclined to do it, since we would end up getting a lot of salt about "How could [person] have missed this?! It's so obvious! Clearly, they're just incompetent and the QMs are unfair literal genies who explicitly want to screw us over and I'm quitting!"

Obviously, that wouldn't happen every time -- in general it would stop at "incompetent" -- but we would have to deal with the full panoply every so often. That gets wearing.
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I'm not sure whether it helps to avoid doing that, but I can certainly sympathize with how tiresome it is as someone that hangs out on the discord.
 
eaglejarl said:
There is literally zero sense in it being on the Human Path.
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Here is an argument based on the entertaining interlude that sparked this grief:

Hiruzen was openly skeptical of Toad propoganda in his comments on Jiraiya's assignment. The Toads that we know of don't SEEM like the type to cry heretic and crucify their own summoner, but there is no guarantee that such an extremist faction does not exist.

It would sound totally reasonable, to me, that J would not want his stark assessments of the military, cultural and theological stances of various 7P parties to be within potential reach of people (or Toads, in this case) who could use them for their own purposes, especially if those assessments run counter to the official state line. I know for certain Keiko's assessment of the Pangolin Government is not something she would keep in writing on the Seventh Path.

All this, of course, is as much an argument for the non-existence of such a dossier as it is for it's presence on the Human Path, but for that it comes down to whether you believe that J is capable of retaining all relevant details with sufficient fidelity to remove the need for notes at all.
 
eaglejarl said:
When a summon tells you how magnificently large his Clan's territory is, take it with a grain of salt. I've spoken with representatives from nine different Clans and they all claim to control the most ground. Next time you're there, look at the sky; the sky over the Seventh Path is a patchwork of colors each of which represents the Clan living below it. The mapping isn't perfect and it breaks down over the oceans, but you can get a reasonable idea of a Clan's living space just by looking at the sky.
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Thanks for the infodump and its format!

RTS style border maps that change according to living space. One thing this tell us is that it's impossible to keep expansion or results of a war from races with flight or long sightlines.

I am surprised by the apparently random distribution of subspecies and genus. There's both Leopard and Cat Clans, but Giant, Long-tailed and Arboreal all fall under the Pangolins? I suspect it's arbitrary, but what's the chance of that.

Mammalia: Monkey, Otter, Capybara, Cat, Leopard, Hyena, Dog, Bear, Pangolin, Boars
Aves: Crow, Condor
Amphibia: Toad
Reptilia: Snake, Turtle
Gastropoda: Slug
Cephalopod: Kraken
Chondrichthyes: Shark
Crustacean: Crustacean
Arachnida: Arachnids
Death: Death
 
Aodyssey said:
Thanks for the infodump and its format!

RTS style border maps that change according to living space. One thing this tell us is that it's impossible to keep expansion or results of a war from races with flight or long sightlines.

I am surprised by the apparently random distribution of subspecies and genus. There's both Leopard and Cat Clans, but Giant, Long-tailed and Arboreal all fall under the Pangolins? I suspect it's arbitrary, but what's the chance of that.

Mammalia: Monkey, Otter, Capybara, Cat, Leopard, Hyena, Dog, Bear, Pangolin, Boars
Aves: Crow, Condor
Amphibia: Toad
Reptilia: Snake, Turtle
Gastropoda: Slug
Cephalopod: Kraken
Chondrichthyes: Shark
Crustacean: Crustacean
Arachnida: Arachnids
Death: Death
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If Kagome is right about the origins of the Seventh Path, it could well be that the clans are just defined by whatever animal forms the other Sages chose to be stuck in. One Sage decides to be a Cat and is thinking about felines in general, and then another Sage goes and picks Leopard because they like Leopards in particular, and you end up with Cat and Leopard as separate clans.
 
Aodyssey said:
Thanks for the infodump and its format!

RTS style border maps that change according to living space. One thing this tell us is that it's impossible to keep expansion or results of a war from races with flight or long sightlines.

I am surprised by the apparently random distribution of subspecies and genus. There's both Leopard and Cat Clans, but Giant, Long-tailed and Arboreal all fall under the Pangolins? I suspect it's arbitrary, but what's the chance of that.

Mammalia: Monkey, Otter, Capybara, Cat, Leopard, Hyena, Dog, Bear, Pangolin, Boars
Aves: Crow, Condor
Amphibia: Toad
Reptilia: Snake, Turtle
Gastropoda: Slug
Cephalopod: Kraken
Chondrichthyes: Shark
Crustacean: Crustacean
Arachnida: Arachnids
Death: Death
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I would like to remind you that the Boar Clan lives on an island with the Snakes. The Seventh Path is a very weird place.
 
Aodyssey said:
Thanks for the infodump and its format!

RTS style border maps that change according to living space. One thing this tell us is that it's impossible to keep expansion or results of a war from races with flight or long sightlines.

I am surprised by the apparently random distribution of subspecies and genus. There's both Leopard and Cat Clans, but Giant, Long-tailed and Arboreal all fall under the Pangolins? I suspect it's arbitrary, but what's the chance of that.

Mammalia: Monkey, Otter, Capybara, Cat, Leopard, Hyena, Dog, Bear, Pangolin, Boars
Aves: Crow, Condor
Amphibia: Toad
Reptilia: Snake, Turtle
Gastropoda: Slug
Cephalopod: Kraken
Chondrichthyes: Shark
Crustacean: Crustacean
Arachnida: Arachnids
Death: Death
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Inferno Vulpix said:
If Kagome is right about the origins of the Seventh Path, it could well be that the clans are just defined by whatever animal forms the other Sages chose to be stuck in. One Sage decides to be a Cat and is thinking about felines in general, and then another Sage goes and picks Leopard because they like Leopards in particular, and you end up with Cat and Leopard as separate clans.
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One theory I have is that the Leopard clan was originally considered a subspecies of the Feline clan, but broke off into their own independent clan for whatever reason.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Clans mentioned in the notes:
  • Toad, Monkey, Slug, Snake, Crow, Shark, Otter, Pangolin, Cat, Bear, Capybara, Leopard, Hyena, Kraken. (Listed by Jiraiya)
  • Dog, Condor, Mara. (Mentioned by Jiraiya right after his big list)
  • Arachnid, Boar, Turtle. (Mentioned by Hiruzen during discussion of land size)
There are summoners in Leaf not mentioned on Jiraiya's big list, unclear if still not mentioned in other parts of the document.

Other key takeaways:
  • Seventh Path geography:
    • Otters and Condors are between Toads and Pangolins.
    • Seventh Path has oceans and islands.
    • Turtles are on the other side of Pangolins from Toad/Condor/Otter.
    • Snakes are beyond the Turtles, on an island with the Boars.
    • There's a river through Turtle that's relatively easy to traverse.
    • Territories 'shift around' for most clans.
  • Inter-clan diplomacy:
    • Toads are friends with Otters, Monkeys, and Dogs.
    • Toad/Mara relations are/were bad.
    • Slugs are left alone and leave everyone else alone.
    • Otters are not warlike.
    • Bears get along with other clans.
  • Special clan features:
    • Toads are not the only users of presumably-sage-mode.
    • Snake jutsu is hard to adapt to humans.
    • Otters and Monkeys are technologically advanced.
    • Pangolin religion is unique/unusual.
      • What's the deal with Sealing for other clans, then?
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I suddenly realized we left out a clan: the Tapir.
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Ah right, added that too.
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Nearly forgot, also the Weasels:
eaglejarl said:
From the moment they met, the girl's attitudes and movements had reminded him of the Weasel Clan; that impression was borne out by the way she slid nimbly through the hole and punched her enemy in the back of the head. The blonde was too busy fighting her invisible assailant; she didn't notice Haga coming until it was too late. She had just started to turn, her swords starting to spin in a defensive circle, when Haga's fist crashed into her skull and dropped her like a sack of rotten tubers.
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KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
All this, of course, is as much an argument for the non-existence of such a dossier as it is for it's presence on the Human Path, but for that it comes down to whether you believe that J is capable of retaining all relevant details with sufficient fidelity to remove the need for notes at all.
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Maybe he didn't actually need that page, and just kept it as a souvenir of his sensei.
 
eaglejarl said:
Yes, that would be a more realistic way to model characters. I'm disinclined to do it, since we would end up getting a lot of salt about "How could [person] have missed this?! It's so obvious! Clearly, they're just incompetent and the QMs are unfair literal genies who explicitly want to screw us over and I'm quitting!"
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Pbpbpffpppbt. Do you have any idea how much salt is worth? You can farm that stuff and become the richest QMs on SV!
 
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eaglejarl said:
Sorry to hear it! I've been on both sides of that situation and it's infuriating either way.

Yes, that would be a more realistic way to model characters. I'm disinclined to do it, since we would end up getting a lot of salt about "How could [person] have missed this?! It's so obvious! Clearly, they're just incompetent and the QMs are unfair literal genies who explicitly want to screw us over and I'm quitting!"

Obviously, that wouldn't happen every time -- in general it would stop at "incompetent" -- but we would have to deal with the full panoply every so often. That gets wearing.
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I mean I would like more incompetent characters and flawed characters. My reading of Jiraiya as desperately over his head in being Hokage and a clan head at the same time was vastly more enjoyable. It made him feel real and not a person shaped plot device.
 
Oneiros said:
I mean I would like more incompetent characters and flawed characters. My reading of Jiraiya as desperately over his head in being Hokage and a clan head at the same time was vastly more enjoyable. It made him feel real and not a person shaped plot device.
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And there wasn't really any salt about Jiraiya's screwup with nature chakra during the fifth event, if I recall correctly.

Conversely, there *was* salt about Shikamaru approving our plan during the Fourth Event, but I think that if the QMs just straight up confirmed that he fucked up and didn't predict the massacre, we would've been fine. Seemed like a very reasonable mistake to me at the time.

At the very least, I do agree with @Oneiros here that failure makes people more interesting. Paradoxically, I think it might also reduce salt levels in the long-term by showing players that Hazou isn't the only person constantly messing up.
 
Roomba said:
At the very least, I do agree with @Oneiros here that failure makes people more interesting. Paradoxically, I think it might also reduce salt levels in the long-term by showing players that Hazou isn't the only person constantly messing up.
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You'll forgive me a certain amount of scepticism given the fact that this discussion was triggered by people objecting to Jiraiya apparently messing up.
 
Roomba said:
At the very least, I do agree with @Oneiros here that failure makes people more interesting.
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Here's to hoping Hiashi will become extremely interesting when we vote for the new Hokage.

Also, I might be committing sacrilege by saying this but I don't like Ami all that much for this reason. She is fine - great even - in small doses but seeing her succeed easily in pretty much everything isn't that interesting.

She probably has had her setbacks as well due to the nature of how the quest works, I'm sure, but those we don't really get to see as much like when she messed up handling Keiko (who in return forgave her easily).

In contrast, a character like Mari who has a similar skill set of being socially competent and manipulating people is a lot more interesting to read about. Because we know about her flaws and her struggles.

I also wondered how much about how I felt was related to the fact that Mari is part of our in-group whereas Ami isn't, but even adjusting for that I can't see myself thinking that way about Ami whenever she pulls off something extraordinary. The difference mainly being between "What Mari just pulled off was amazing!" and "Of course Ami did that, what else did I expect?".
 
Velorien said:
You'll forgive me a certain amount of scepticism given the fact that this discussion was triggered by people objecting to Jiraiya apparently messing up.
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Just to be clear, I haven't read the notes, nor the discussion following them. Did Jiraiya mess up there somehow? In any case, my post was literally triggered by stuff going on in my professional life. It wasn't some kind of circuitous commentary on recent thread happenings.
 
I'm pretty sure most of the player-presumed ultra competent individuals have screwed up at least once somewhere in the text. Folks like the J-man actually did fuck up more than a few times if you read in between the lines. This is mostly a function of screentime, I think.

For example, Hiashi is pretty much never on screen, so we don't often get to see him make an explicitly bad decision because of his dumbass beliefs. On the flipside, Jiraiya was a pretty large part of the main cast for a while, and we saw at least two super major fuckups of his (spy network infiltration a hundred chapters ago, nature chakra stuff).
 
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Velorien said:
You'll forgive me a certain amount of scepticism given the fact that this discussion was triggered by people objecting to Jiraiya apparently messing up.
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I'll third that viewpoint. I think I have been fairly consistent in doing so and also in my support of you guys.

Vecht said:
But I for one support their decisions, and believe this sort of thing is entirely in-line with what should happen in a rational quest. By getting upset at our QMs, and demanding they change the story, or otherwise actively work to avoid outcomes like this, you are demanding that they compromise their ability to write a rational quest, for fear of writing outcomes that upset the readers.

I certainly hope they do not do this.
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It makes me a bit sad to see that happen in amy capacity. If you guys ever decide it is the logical outcome for someone to screw up, I hope you write that regardless of forecasted salinity concentration levels.

E: Not to say I think J-man screwed up here. Idk what all the fuss is about. Admittedly, I haven't been following thread discussion much lately.
 
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