- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Hmm. Hopefully that doesn't come up this chapter then.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Warning: Warning
warning
I understand this was a bit of a sore spot for this quest, and that you knew that when posting. Endeavour to be more mindful of the impact your posting will have on other users in future. Please don't do this again.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your time.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Admiral Skippy : Thank you for keeping an eye out, and for the measured response.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
At a guess, the colors are a reference to Umineko, and the types of truth; Red is something that is known to be true, and blue something that is believed to be true. I agree that it's hard to see, but it isn't just a meaningless addition.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And yet, still unnecessary. Also, for those of us unfamiliar with Umineko it adds nothing and is still irritating. Words could have conveyed the extra meaning perfectly well.
- Location
- USA
I don't follow, I can't see how this is responding to my question of our goals. I am unable to form a response to accurately describe my confusion.
- Location
- Snakesden
First off, for good luck:
[X] Action Plan: Whose Leaf Does Not Wither
@OliWhail et. al. - I might have missed it--have we discussed the mom/family question with the rest of Team Uplift at all? Seems worth doing if not--they have families too, and we just assumed/suggested not-family-related requests for Noburi and Keiko. And while it is a longshot, Mari probably has a decent idea of how plausible it would be, and how to bring it up with the rest of the team. Could we add asking her about it (and only bringing it up with Jiraiya if she thinks it's worth it) to the plan?
Also, I think the mom thing is reasonable in character, especially with Hazou almost having Akane taken from him too. But the characters don't know Mist knows about them already. So to them, extracting Hana would be providing solid evidence to Mist that Hazou (and probably some confederates of his) were at large, unless they could convincingly fake a death. Larger or multiple extractions would almost certainly put Mist on alert even if done well--unless done really well, or hidden in a haystack of some sort (like massive Leaf raids on Mist).
@eaglejarl: Aww shucks, thanks! Hope I can live up to that c:
[X] Action Plan: Whose Leaf Does Not Wither
@OliWhail et. al. - I might have missed it--have we discussed the mom/family question with the rest of Team Uplift at all? Seems worth doing if not--they have families too, and we just assumed/suggested not-family-related requests for Noburi and Keiko. And while it is a longshot, Mari probably has a decent idea of how plausible it would be, and how to bring it up with the rest of the team. Could we add asking her about it (and only bringing it up with Jiraiya if she thinks it's worth it) to the plan?
Also, I think the mom thing is reasonable in character, especially with Hazou almost having Akane taken from him too. But the characters don't know Mist knows about them already. So to them, extracting Hana would be providing solid evidence to Mist that Hazou (and probably some confederates of his) were at large, unless they could convincingly fake a death. Larger or multiple extractions would almost certainly put Mist on alert even if done well--unless done really well, or hidden in a haystack of some sort (like massive Leaf raids on Mist).
@eaglejarl: Aww shucks, thanks! Hope I can live up to that c:
- Location
- ...Nice try.
I might have read you wrong. Here's where my head is at.
First, I proposed hunting down someone for their chakra blades:
Two posts later, you said:
I'm assuming this was in response to my suggestion to wantonly murder someone who has a shiny, which is where my response was coming from. (If you weren't responding to me, then I understand the confusion.)
I then agreed with you that we didn't want this to be the default action. I then used quite a few words to describe someone who might have chakra blades who is so evil/damaging that we should be okay killing them. The rest of the post you quoted was (1) specifying this scenario is low-probability; (2) that it may be impossible, since I'm new and have knowledge gaps; and (3) suggesting that, as a hivemind, we throw a bunch of low-probability, high-reward alternatives that cost little to check at the wall to see what sticks.
TL;DR you asked if we wanted a world where we didn't kill people for their shiny. I said yes, and suggested that maybe we could find someone who we would kill anyway who happened to have shiny.
We are both after a world where there is no murder to acquire shiny. We may or may not disagree that, if there's a missing-nin who's slaughtering civilians, that it's okay to kill them and acquire their shiny as a bonus.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
"I was actually confused about the question, last time, I mean, you said the answer yourself". Also, in general it's very wordy. It might read better if compressed?
I think this sounds quite dangerous, actually. Less likely to start Shinobi War Four, more likely to turn any extraction attempt into a really impressive ambush. Like, 'Hana' is both stuffed with explosives and fanatically loyal to Mist (mind control seals?), four of the Seven Swordsmen are ready to interrupt us, and Yagura himself is ready to drop whatever he's doing and unleash his bijuu as soon as the extraction party shows up.
But I could be overestimating the risks.
There's also the Sokkyō Clan, who are, uh, potentially a world ending threat. Hmm. @Velorien, I assume Grey Goo Chakra Monsters aren't especially worse than the regular sort?
The Kotsuzui Clan's Blood Release. Also, theoretically, the Sokkyō Clan's One Hit Wonders.
- Location
- USA
@bayesclef I would still rather try to recruit that person rather than kill them to cooperate with us on it correcting for all the war that goes on in the world.
How are you suggesting that we check your possibility?
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
[X] Whose Leaf Does Not Wither
Also, a thought for one of Kotsuzui Kenjii's abilities, which could probably be turned into a generic Water Technique:
Hypersanguination no Jutsu
After forming the requisite handseals, any foreign body of blood within a milimeter of the user's hands is forcefully expanded. This can be done slowly enough to act as an external 'bloodmaking cantrip', but it can also be empowered to cause impressive amounts of damage.
Type: Blood Release Nintaijutsu
Tier A Success: Instant bruising, may cause blood doping as a side effect.
Tier B Success: Severe internal bleeding, with a side of organ damage.
Tier C Success: Site rules are invoked, everyone involved gets put on a government watchlist.
...
Don't you wish we were playing as him?
Also, a thought for one of Kotsuzui Kenjii's abilities, which could probably be turned into a generic Water Technique:
Hypersanguination no Jutsu
After forming the requisite handseals, any foreign body of blood within a milimeter of the user's hands is forcefully expanded. This can be done slowly enough to act as an external 'bloodmaking cantrip', but it can also be empowered to cause impressive amounts of damage.
Type: Blood Release Nintaijutsu
Tier A Success: Instant bruising, may cause blood doping as a side effect.
Tier B Success: Severe internal bleeding, with a side of organ damage.
Tier C Success: Site rules are invoked, everyone involved gets put on a government watchlist.
...
Don't you wish we were playing as him?
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- Location
- ...Nice try.
Me too.
Actually, what are everyone's thoughts about recruiting? The benefit is a power ramp, the cost is a larger back-target. At what point does the latter outweigh the former? Is this something that's already been discussed, but the discussion is buried where no man may find it?
Ask Jiraiya if there's any baddies he wouldn't mind seeing dead who have chakra weapons.
We could also ask if, similar to the scroll, there was a legend of ninja with chakra weapons lost at sea. I have faith in the hivemind to munchkin up seabed-searching setup more effective than anything in the Elemental Nations.
Too large a group than it become harder to remain stealthy. With each new member, there's also higher chance of betrayal.
I prefer we maintain our group size, but recruit and build a network of ninjas who will cooperate with us on our uplift goal.
A weapon washed out to sea is carried by the current. Who knows what the search radius will be?
Also, I am running a new rational quest.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
If it was I missed it.
My first thought is to look for missing nin who have already shown some inclination towards helping civilians. Specifically, we would gather a list of such before we start recruiting, to frustrate the efforts of anyone who hears about our practice after we start and wants to infiltrate the group.
Maybe subject people to a Yamanaka scan before really trusting them?
Fair enough. It was a response that ignored the context of your post, and I apologize for it. I don't know why I wrote it.
I don't think that it would be substantial, at least for the target audience of this quest.
I don't want to go back and look up the exact numbers, but, generally, it's something that can happen any time there is a close vote. The Arikada (sp.?) arc generally had only one viable plan in play, but VHitM arc had several intelligent, well-intentioned disagreements, IIRC.
I suspect that similar disagreements between multiple viable options will arise if we spend any appreciable amount of time in Konoha. (For example, what to do about Hazou's Mom? How do approach our teammates about training strategies? Should we confront Keiko about her abuse of our CCnJ? What about Mari?)
Well, the Against vote addresses that problem. The Ratings->Ranks->Condorcet proposal was in response to someone's criticism of the Against proposal.
My own preferences are Ratings->Ranks->Condorcet > Approval Voting with Against votes > Approval Voting > First Past the Post.
I think that what happened was that I clicked Reply moments after you posted, and then spent a lot of time writing the response.
From the point of view of ranked ballot methods, a negative rating for Plan L is just an expression of preference that every plan with a positive rating and every plan which the voter did not actively rate (giving it the default rating of 0) is preferred over Plan L. In other words, it's mathematically indistinguishable from rating all other plans, say, +0.5, and rating Plan L +0.4.
If most voters vote maliciously, then no egalitarian voting system can help. However, Youthsuit vote was people being playful and getting carried away, so they would not have actually given OliWail's plan a negative rating, if nothing else because that would be effectively telling him or her "I think that your plan is worse than no plan at all.", which people would be reluctant to do unless they are either malicious or feel that the target of their vote deserves it, neither of which was the case here (but would be the case for anyone stumbling upon the Youthsuit vote).
Perhaps we need to disambiguate what's changed and what's not changed under the proposal. The underlying expression of preferences (with the voter expressing Approval or Lack of Approval for each proposed plan) and the algorithm for picking the winner (plan with most Approvals wins) are unchanged, because adding the same constant to every vote total does not change the outcome.
What's changed is the "user interface" for casting the votes. The current UI requires you to list the entries that you are voting For. The proposal adds an option to the UI to instead vote For all plans, except those you list. This is something that a sufficiently dedicated voter could do right now, by combing through the thread for every plan on the table, writing down a vote For them, then deleting the ones the voter wishes to vote Against. The proposed change simply automates this option.
My original writeup had phrased it in terms of voting Against, because that's how it looks from the voter's point of view, and, also, what plans were actively voted down and what plans actively voted up is useful information, even if it doesn't affect the winner directly. (Recall that the original proposal also included an ability to vote Against @User --- I was trying to create a social stigma against frivolous votes.)
Perhaps; but many more people have read that much on their mobile phones.
Fair enough.
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Konohagakure is so nice that they humanize their enemies early on, but that's not enough.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Holy crap. Good job Leaf.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I'd actually argue we should be pushing to make things accessible to people who aren't the target audience, since more people getting involved is fun and more people being rationalist-adjacent is probably a net positive thing. (I'm not arguing against implementing your proposal, it seems like an elegant way to say NOOOO, but 'the target audience for rational fiction understands it' doesn't seem like a great supporting point given how weird we are on average
)Why is this even on your scale, FPtP should be buried in the depths of hell
*Waves hand for like the third time* I have definitely typed out multi-kiloword plans and omake on mobile
So, the speech outlined doesn't cover a few rather important things. First is the possibility that the world could enter the current equilibrium without completely devaluing their enemies. If they only value their own village and friends more, just like we do, then there's still the potential for race to the bottom type situations. Everyone doesn't need to hate each other, and I wouldn't be surprised if you could start out without that being the case, and cognitive biases slowly take hold over time and make everyone hate each other. You can't just get rid of the hate without changing anything else, it'll be back full force inside a year.
In all honesty, the best way to change things would probably be to become so powerful we can unilaterally enforce peace, and prevent scorch squads and other Moloch type things from happening. We most likely won't be able to do this with personal before before we've amassed over 8000 EXP (at that point we would be more powerful individually than anyone else in the world, and as a group would be more powerful than a few Hidden Villages combined). A more likely possibility is using sealcrafting to make one village dramatically more powerful than the others, such that that one village could enforce peace. Long term, the other villages could most likely steal the sealtech, so it would likely be better to suddenly take over the world and form one strong central governing power that could overwhelm any ninja rebellions. Democracy wouldn't be feasible at the beginning, because the civillians wouldn't have enough power to bring to the table for other people to be willing to accept it. It would likely be a good idea if possible, however. Liberal democracies on Earth have a pretty good track record. This power would inevitably become corrupt and ruin things, so that isn't a long term solution, but it could buy the characters a few decades of time to come up with better solutions, assuming they had absolute control of the governing body, or enough to suddenly change the way things were later on.
Ideally we would make combat so reliant on seal tech that the ability to use chakra was almost unimportant.
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Careful. It can lead to something like WW1 or WW2 in our timeline.
Threnodist
occupying Haudenosaunee & Osage land she/her/hers
- Location
- Pittsburgh
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
We really don't.
If we decide to spread immortality tech to everyone as soon as we invent it then the only option is for Hazou and Co. to rule as benevolent dictators, ever expanding democracies just don't work. (See Athens, Rome etc.)
If we decide to NOT spread immortality tech outside of Hazou and Co. (which is definitely the worst option) then it would probably be best if we just brainwash everyone into believing in communism and communist ideals (put others ahead of yourself, greed is bad, all efforts should be done for the good of the community etc.) and then just slowly fade into the background and watch over earth as protectors.
If we don't discover immortality tech then just do the same as directly above.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
In general, I'm for it, assuming pros outweigh the cons. Here's the things I'd weigh on choosing to add a member to our group:
Pros:
- Additional knowledge (e.g. Leaf & Seals)
- Additional combat capability
- Additional specialization (e.g. tech hack specialist)
- Redundancy (right now a single death is devestating)
- Additional contacts (e.g. VHitM)
- Additional manpower (if we ever get merchant empire off the ground)
- Additional awareness rolls
- Betrayal potential
- Drama potential
- Stealth costs
- Tac Move costs
- Narrowing options (e.g. we have Akane, we can't nuke Leaf)
- Adding obligations (e.g. we need to report to Jiraiya)
Unfortunately, most ninja will have the cons outweigh the pros. For instance we could never trust Arikada. Depending on how we want to proceed with Jiraiya, we could potentially get say, a technique hacking specialist liason which narrowed our options while giving us many more possibilities. Those pros might outweigh the cons. Similarly, we might find missing nin like Akane or Kagome who have low cons. I'd take it on a case by case basis.
As a point of reference, I was sad that we advised Noburi to reject crazy axe girl. Her combat capability would have been nice, it likely would have made Noburi care less about Keiko's inevitable hurting of his feelings, and I can't imagine her addition would hurt our outward social things (because Kagome), though I don't know what her tac move or stealth would have been. She also would have provided a great in with Villager Hidden in the Mountains. Unfortunately, I was in the woods and couldn't articulate these thoughts to the thread. I don't know what arguments were brought up against it.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Preach it, brother. We might not have The Orange Disaster if we weren't using FPTP.