Voting is open for the next 19 hours, 3 minutes
Yes, so if we built prototypes, we could probably sell them. Unfortunately, our builder is hospitalized right now. No idea if Hazou's mech apt is high enough to do it or not. It's probably something to keep in mind though.

Our builder is now an agent of Leaf.

If they wanted to, they can ask Akane for some of the details.

This will piss off the whole team, however, so Leaf is unlikely to just do it unilaterally. Not to mention any prototypes will be kinda useless without the needed seals.
 
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  1. Give veto rights to active thread participants that seem relatively sane
    • Ewww! What is this? I don't even.
@OliWhail for dictator, down with unrestricted democracy! Give him the right to enforce a need for a supermajority!

In all seriousness, yeah, there are some problems with this, like how this is a cross between a presidency and the electoral collage, but in theory there shouldn't be anything wrong with the idea, it just... requires a lot of care.
 
I'm uncertain how you answered my concern about having multiple simultaneous votes.
[SNIP]
Basically, the vote tally you're suggesting would require the program to be able to separate each plan offered into discrete catagories before understanding how to vote. Our fondest for references, pun and otherwise witty titles means that is likely to be a hurdle in itself.
I had brought up this problem in an earlier post, and I agree with @OliWail: just use tagging for votes, with action plans being the default.
E: Oh and to answer the point you did address. Our current approval system allows people to choose which votes they are happy with
Again, the proposal does not change the approval voting system. It still allows people to choose to vote for things. In fact, that's how most votes would probably be cast. What it does is provide a shortcut for voting for everything except the specified plans. It's easier to say "vote against", but the two are mathematically equivalent for the purposes of choosing the winner.
meaning that theres a lot more control of not voting for mediocre plans.
A voter who is browsing the thread on a mobile phone and sees a disastrous plan doesn't want control. They want to be able to quickly register a vote against it. If they have time and equipment, they can always revisit the thread and vote for something. If they don't, they can do their part in preventing unambiguously bad plans from winning by making a quick Against post.
 
One proposal that had been floated is that if the winner flips within a few hours of the deadline, voting is automatically extended by several more hours. One could even add the proviso that no new plans may be proposed or amended during the extended time.

Deadline extension seems nice, but it will make things harder for QMs who already have to set a lot of time aside for writing this stuff. I wouldn't introduce additional uncertainty there unless we absolutely have to.

Making it easier to vote against plans without knowing what to vote for may help with that.

In case you missed it, I already agree with you.

For complexity, it looks complicated because I wrote out the behind-the-scenes procedure. From the user's point of view, it's "put a negative number in the brackets if you think the plan is worse than no plan, a positive number if it's better than nothing, and a higher number the more you like it". It's not that much more confusing to Americans than "Vote for as many options as you like" of Approval Voting. (And, lots of non-US countries do use ranked ballots in elections, and Maine will in the next election.)

It's not much more confusing, but it is more confusing. The loss in the number of voters due to higher barrier of entry is not worth it.

As for how big the gains are, I recall a number of times something like this happened:
  1. Mediocre Plan A is proposed.
  2. People bandwagon on Plan A.
  3. Better Plan B is proposed.
  4. Fairly close to the deadline, Plan B is in a modest lead.
  5. Plan B', similar to B but with some improvements is proposed.
Now voters who prefer B'>B>A have a choice: they can either vote B and B' both, ensuring that one of them wins, but also deny B' momentum; or they can vote B' only, risking that A ends up winning. This is a coordination problem, which can be avoided by allowing each voter to just add a rating for B' that's higher than that for B.

That doesn't happen often (I can't think of an example off-hand, but that might just be me), and approval voting takes care of it most of the time. Yes, you lose some granularity in the decision making, but making things more complicated doesn't seem like a good trade to me. Especially since this wouldn't help against the youthsuit problem, which is the main worry here.

Most of the clunkiness occurs behind the scenes (assuming you meant compared with approval voting; if not, can you clarify what you meant?). And, barring an exact tie, some plan will win a ranked vote, so I don't understand why plans would have trouble getting through.

That was me forgetting what Condorcet voting actually meant. I guess I posted the edit too late for you to see?
EDIT: Whoops, got my voting systems mixed up there. The actual problem with Condorcet is the same as with the two methods before it. It's too complicated for too little gain.


Assuming I am reading the cut-off bit right, those Youthsuit voters who had already voted for @OliWail's plan also generally canceled their vote for that plan.

I was pretty sure I finished that sentence. What was suppose to be there was the following.
Imagine if all the people who voted for youthsuit had also actively voted negatives on Oli's plan.

This is for a system where people could cast negative votes in addition to the positives. That is, not the method you were pushing for earlier where [/] is just used as a shorthand to vote all the other plans.
 
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Again, the proposal does not change the approval voting system. It still allows people to choose to vote for things. In fact, that's how most votes would probably be cast. What it does is provide a shortcut for voting for everything except the specified plans. It's easier to say "vote against", but the two are mathematically equivalent for the purposes of choosing the winner.
This would be a fairly simple mechanism to add, without actually changing the voting system. Just make the current tally bot recognize [/] as "vote for everything except this."

Doesn't change the voting mechanics, just makes it easier to effectively reduce the chance of a disasterous vote without requiring the voter to maintain their vote (e.g. if a future good vote were put up)
 
Chapter 85: On Not Making Bad Choices
Chapter 85: On Not Making Bad Choices


Hazō jerked awake with a scream of primal terror.

A fraction of a second later, Kagome leapt out of bed, kunai in hand. "I knew it! Those stinking stinkers couldn't even wait one night! You won't take me alive, you backstabbing—"

"Kagome," Noburi groaned, reluctantly stirring from his slumber. "It's not a Leaf assassination squad this time either. Hazō just had a nightmare… right?"

Hazō nodded shakily. "A report… there was a report…"

Noburi slumped back down in resignation. "A report. It would be, with you. Were there lists too?"

Hazō gazed at him with the hollow eyes of a man who had seen hell itself. "There were appendices."
-o-
"Inoue-sensei," Hazō staggered into the kitchen the next morning, "I think I need urgent training."

Inoue-sensei looked up from her breakfast bowl of fresh fruit (for all Leaf's faults, lack of hospitality was not one of them).

"You're finally in need of my expertise as a seduction expert? That's great, but I think it should wait until we don't have Leaf watching our every move, don't you?"

Hazō didn't dignify this with a response. "I'm serious, Inoue-sensei. What happens if I can't keep it together in a crisis? You need to teach me how to act like a normal, sane person even if something's wrong with me on the inside, and you need to do it now."

Inoue-sensei's smirk vanished. "It's like that, is it?"

"I think it might be," Hazō whispered.

"Well," Inoue-sensei said slowly, "I'm glad we decided to postpone our shopping trip."
-o-
"I'm sorry about last night, Noburi," Hazō said awkwardly.

Noburi rolled his eyes. "Seriously, though, Hazō? You're having nightmares about reports?"

Hazō's eyebrow twitched. "It really isn't funny. Did you ever finish a term at the Academy, and realise that they were about to send your family a report card that made you sound lazy and incompetent, and that it had already been written and was on its way and there was nothing you could do about it?"

"I, uh… so what's up with all the pink wallpaper in here? I mean, do these guys have weird taste or what?" Noburi began to study the ceiling, his hands clasped behind his back.

Hazō blinked. "Never mind. Noburi, there's something I wanted to talk to you about."

"What's that?"

"I know that you're going to ask for permission to visit the Leaf General Hospital and study medicine with them during our stay here. And it seems like you're developing a great specialisation there that none of the rest of us can match, and you're getting good with Water ninjutsu as well."

Noburi gave a small, casual nod, as if acknowledging the praise that was his due, but after a few seconds' struggle to keep a straight face, he finally gave in and grinned. "You know it. Wakahisa Noburi, badass jōnin extraordinaire, coming right up. Heal 'em with one hand, kill 'em with the other."

"Right," Hazō said. "So given that's the way you're choosing to specialise, I was thinking you might not have as much time for learning diplomacy from Inoue-sensei anymore. And Keiko's reaching a plateau in her combat training, and her summoning ability is something she develops in bursts… so what do you think about having her take over as our social representative on a day-to-day basis?"

Noburi's expression turned cold. "Brilliant!" he said bitingly. "Kurosawa Hazō, master planner and coordinator, strikes again! You're right, why should the people in her team be the only ones she hurts whenever she opens her mouth? It'll be exciting to see who else she can push away. With her as our diplomat, she'll get all the combat experience she needs, and I'll always have someone to practise med-nin techniques on. Capital, Hazō! Idea of the year!"

Hazō stood still, frozen in shock.

"OK, maybe that was going a bit too far," Noburi said eventually. "But Hazō, this is a damn stupid plan. Keiko doesn't get people, and she never will, and at best, maybe Inoue-sensei can teach her to pretend she does. And that's assuming Keiko's OK being taught by Inoue-sensei after what happened between them. Did you see Keiko's face when she realised they were going to be alone together in the women's bedroom last night? I almost thought she was going to run away again."

"You really think things are that bad?" Hazō asked.

"You've got to learn to pay more attention to people, Hazō," Noburi said with an exasperated sigh. "I mean, you're not as bad as she is—thank the Sage and all his disciples for that—but I swear sometimes it seems like you flat-out forget someone exists until they're part of your latest master plan.

"Why don't you go talk to her yourself? I bet you a square of Kagome's smuggled chocolate that she's going to say the same thing."
-o-
"Keiko, can I talk to you about something?"

"Please go ahead."

"Noburi is becoming increasingly busy with his training in medical and combat ninjutsu, and I was thinking… if that's the direction he is interested in pursuing, would you be interested in taking over as the public face of the group?"

Keiko studied him for a long moment. Then, almost gently, she said, "Hazō, I believe the stress of the last few days is having a significant influence on you. I suggest you sleep some more until you are feeling fully refreshed, or if you are unable to sleep, spend time on breathing exercises and meditation until you are feeling better."

Hazō did his best not to scowl. "I was being serious, Keiko."

"So was I," she said more coolly. "Your suggestion is irrational to the point where I would not expect you to make it in a healthy frame of mind. Hazō, I find social interaction stressful and draining. You know this. You also know that my inability to satisfactorily model other people's inner states, and how my actions may change those states, is one of my greatest and most intractable weaknesses. Finally, you know that Noburi finds his social activity enjoyable and fulfilling, and would suffer if forced to surrender it on a long-term basis. It would be out of character for you to make a joke like this, or to attempt it as an exercise in cruelty, so I can only assume that your mental functions have been critically disrupted, and you are in urgent need of care which I cannot provide. If you do not feel the course of action I suggested earlier is sufficient, I advise you to seek help from Inoue-sensei, who can be trusted to handle the psychologically fragile with skill and sensitivity."

Hazō decided not to mention that he'd in effect already done this.

"Changing the subject," he said quickly, "I've been thinking about what we should ask Jiraiya for as our rewards. I know we haven't discussed it as a group yet, but I was wondering what you'd think about training to imbue your weapons with Wind chakra?"

"I was unaware of that option," Keiko said. "Is it available, and what are the implications?"

"You know how our minders are the famous Ino-Shika-Chō? Well, Inoue-sensei told us the legends—in every generation, a tactical genius who wields shadows, a master psychic, and a taijutsu expert with unparalleled body control. But we know nothing about the Sarutobi Clan's specialities, since the Hokage is said to be a well-rounded master of every kind of skill. So yesterday, after the meeting, Noburi tried to find out Sarutobi Asuma's particular specialisation through small talk. He says Sarutobi talked about his ability to enhance weapons—in his case, chakra blades—with his Wind chakra for additional speed and damage."

"A jōnin gave away tactical information about his capabilities?" Keiko said suspiciously.

"He said it was common knowledge, and Noburi thinks it was intended as a reminder not to cross his team, given how he described what happened when those blades went through a human body. Anyway, since you have Wind affinity as well, I thought perhaps we could ask Jiraiya to ask Sarutobi to train you. And maybe we could get you some chakra blades as well."

Keiko shook her head. "Hazō, given your background, your ignorance is understandable, but chakra blades are not commonly available. The materials and craftsmanship are extremely rare, and chakra blades are considered clan treasures, to be passed down from master to apprentice, or perhaps bestowed as a reward for an act of great service to the clan. Most chakra blades not in the possession of a noble clan are ones which were at some point looted from the body of a previous wielder. Few new ones are ever made, and if Jiraiya is resourceful enough to have them crafted for me, such a gift would put me in his debt for years to come.

"With that said, I trust your grasp of strategy, and if you believe that an expansion of my ranged combat capabilities would benefit the team more than anything else Jiraiya could conceivably offer, I will give the matter serious consideration. Though I will admit that today's conversation has given me cause to question your judgement in times of stress somewhat."

A thought seemed to occur to her. "Is your current dysfunction caused by concern over Akane's welfare? I realise that there is nothing I can say that will change the present situation, and I doubt I could find the right words to aid you in coping with it… but if you merely require a willing listener to express your feelings to, please do not hesitate to make use of me."

Maybe Hazō would. What happened in that dream—the fact that something had made him have that dream—was a hint that he might not be as stable as he thought he was. He needed to make a list of every possible coping mechanism, and analyse them until he came up with the right strategy for dealing with this crisis. There was a very real chance he could lose Akane, and if that happened… would he be able to remain himself?
-o-
You have spent a bunch of XP.
-o-
The training plans that won during the Vote of Tragedy have now been implemented as follows:
  • Training Hazou: Advanced Flowcharts has been implemented in full.​
  • Training Keiko: Inheritor of Talky has been rejected by NPC agency.​
  • Training Noburi: Field Medic Extraordinaire cannot be implemented at present since it relies on you a) successfully negotiating access to Leaf General Hospital in-character and b) not subsequently doing something to get yourself barred again and/or kicked out of Leaf in the immediate future. If these conditions are successfully fulfilled, the plan will be implemented, subject to the "re-vote based on new information" option.​
  • Jutsu Hazou: Whack-a-Mole Madness and Keiko Reward: Chakra blades and/or training to empower weapons with wind nature chakra are currently locked in as your requests to Jiraiya, subject to any changes that may occur between now and when you next speak to him.​

-o-
The next update will be based on Action Plan: Whose Leaf Does Not Wither.​
 
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But Hazō, this is a damn stupid plan. Keiko doesn't get people, and she never will, and at best, maybe Inoue-sensei can teach her to pretend she does.

Your suggestion is irrational to the point where I would not expect you to make it in a healthy frame of mind. Hazō, I find social interaction stressful and draining. You know this. You also know that my inability to satisfactorily model other people's inner states, and how my actions may change those states, is one of my greatest and most intractable weaknesses. Finally, you know that Noburi finds his social activity enjoyable and fulfilling, and would suffer if forced to surrender it on a long-term basis.

I'm not sure what to do here. The characters are treating social skills as something that is not possible to learn through training and effort, which seems all kinds of silly to me. I guess overcoming your weaknesses is not something ninjas do. (EDIT: Especially when they are like 13 years old.)

I have no idea what to do with our long term character builds now. Nobby can't afford to get high social, medical, and water jutsu at the same time. Since we can't drop social, either medical or water jutsu needs to be axed to mediocrity.

In short term this means that we can't really afford to raise both Medicine and MedJutsu to 10. If Nobby continues as the Diplomancer he needs to channel that XP to, well, Diplomacy.

"I mean, you're not as bad as she is—thank the Sage and all his disciples for that—but I swear sometimes it seems like you flat-out forget someone exists until they're part of your latest master plan.

Yes, it is obviously not because we were either preparing to get killed or getting killed and had no room to address team dynamics before right now.

Well, technically we opted to not address team dynamics this time either, but excessive youth kinda got us sidetracked and we ended up with the lesser plan from before.

Jutsu Hazō: Whack-a-Mole Madness and Keiko Reward: Chakra blades and/or training to empower weapons with wind nature chakra are currently locked in as your requests to Jiraiya, subject to any changes that may occur between now and when you next speak to him.

Wait, these are locked in now and count as full requests? Does this mean that Hazou can't get seals like we prioritized in the action plan? Or that Keiko getting a Wind Jutsu means that Nobby will miss out on either medical training or mist jutsu? Or that we can forget about getting high quality Leaf intel on our families?


EDIT: Damnit, I was supposed to say something positive.

The first part of the update is great. I thought you would go with Hazou having a momentary insight or panic attack on 'how things could turn out' in the hallway after leaving J, but a dream is nice too.

It's also pretty great that Hazou is only being embarrassingly stupid like usual, instead of destructively stupid like he was in the retconned update.
 
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The whole Keiko Diplomancer role switch is a case of mechanics not meshing with reality. Mechanically, Keiko is very good at dealing with people, and is very good at convincing them because she has spent a lot of time training to do so. In the "real world", that idea is completely insane because Keiko is still really socially stunted and Noburi is easy going and charismatic.

I'm confused why Hazou talked about it with both of them after being shut down once though. Just a by-product of him cracking a bit under the pressure?
 
Wait, these are locked in now and count as full requests? Does this mean that Hazou can't get seals like we prioritized in the action plan? Or that Keiko getting a Wind Jutsu means that Nobby will miss out on either medical training or mist jutsu? Or that we can forget about getting high quality Leaf intel on our families?
Your requests are individual, like the last time you completed a mission for Jiraiya.

Since the current plan doesn't include talking to Jiraiya, you do have time to re-vote regarding your requests, though it raises the question of "why spend time voting for and designing a ninjutsu if you don't actually want to get it?"

I'm confused why Hazou talked about it with both of them after being shut down once though. Just a by-product of him cracking a bit under the pressure?
Partly because Noburi challenged him to, and having Keiko approve the plan would demonstrate that it wasn't that unreasonable, and partly because the training plan didn't specify whom to talk to first, and it seemed like both deserved the chance to respond.
 
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it raises the question of "why spend time voting for and designing a ninjutsu if you don't actually want to get it?"

Because we don't know what and how much Jiraya is actually going to agree on. That's why the reward requests were prioritized in the action plan.

For example, if J is willing to give us sealcraft, I would rather have that than Earth Jutsu for Hazou. J might say no to sealcraft though, so in that case it would be better for Hazou to get some jutsu.

Not to mention we didn't even know if we were voting for an action plan when were talking about jutsus.

Partly because Noburi challenged him to, and having Keiko approve the plan would demonstrate that it wasn't that unreasonable, and partly because the training plan didn't specify whom to talk to first, and it seemed like both deserved the chance to respond.

How to handle the discussion with Noburi and Keiko was meant to come from the action plan. The line in the training plan was meant to prevent Hazou from suggesting it in case he couldn't have a proper discussion with both Noburi and Keiko.
 
It still allows people to choose to vote for things. In fact, that's how most votes would probably be cast. What it does is provide a shortcut for voting for everything except the specified plans. It's easier to say "vote against", but the two are mathematically equivalent for the purposes of choosing the winner.
Perhaps I've misunderstood and thats why I'm replying slightly out of order, I thought you said that you could either give a nega vote or you could vote normally.

Again, the proposal does not change the approval voting system.
This sentence is stupid and upsets me.
The proposal is a change to the current approval voting system by adding additional options. If it where not a change then there would be nothing different.
Although it doesn't change the parts that are already in existence it will change the system as a whole.

A voter who is browsing the thread on a mobile phone and sees a disastrous plan doesn't want control. They want to be able to quickly register a vote against it. If they have time and equipment, they can always revisit the thread and vote for something. If they don't, they can do their part in preventing unambiguously bad plans from winning by making a quick Against post.
This is not really the best argument here because of the nature of the community on this thread.
Nobodys ever tapped out a thousand odd words of action plan on a mobile phone.
 
Because we don't know what and how much Jiraya is actually going to agree on. That's why the reward requests were prioritized in the action plan.

For example, if J is willing to give us sealcraft, I would rather have that than Earth Jutsu for Hazou. J might say no to sealcraft though, so in that case it would be better for Hazou to get some jutsu.

Not to mention we didn't even know if we were voting for an action plan when were talking about jutsus.



How to handle the discussion with Noburi and Keiko was meant to come from the action plan. The line in the training plan was meant to prevent Hazou from suggesting it in case he couldn't have a proper discussion with both Noburi and Keiko.
Clearly there has been confusion all round. But all's well that doesn't end in unspeakable, quest-threatening disaster?

So to reiterate what has been said in the update in a hopefully clearer way: right now, Hazō wants a ninjutsu according to the Whack-a-Mole Madness plan, and will ask for it unless the action plan in which he talks to Jiraiya about rewards specifies differently. Keiko wants her Wind imbuing training, and will ask Jiraiya for it unless something happens to change her mind (including, but not limited to, player efforts via an action plan).

Edit: I should note that Whose Leaf Does Not Wither did not, in fact, specify any strategy for talking to Keiko or Noburi about the training plan, and the training plan was voted in anyway. Where winning plans clash (if that description can do justice to this situation), what to do has always been up to QM discretion.
 
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Clearly there has been confusion all round. But all's well that doesn't end in unspeakable, quest-threatening disaster?

Good to clear this up. Clear voting instructions for anything that deviates from normal are kinda super important, since it is hard to own up to decision when you are not sure what you are even deciding in the first place.

So to reiterate what has been said in the update in a hopefully clearer way: right now, Hazō wants a ninjutsu according to the Whack-a-Mole Madness plan, and will ask for it unless the action plan in which he talks to Jiraiya about rewards specifies differently. Keiko wants her Wind imbuing training, and will ask Jiraiya for it unless something happens to change her mind (including, but not limited to, player efforts via an action plan).

Okay, since I have your attention another question:

Jiraya agreed in a general sense to get Earth Jutsu for Hazou after the Liberator Mission. We've been kinda hoping that it extends to this jutsu request, so that we don't need to spend a favor from Arikada mission on it. Is this a thing that is possible or should we just forget about it?
 
Nobodys ever tapped out a thousand odd words of action plan on a mobile phone.
*Ahem* :p

they are probably floating around kabillion of ideas as well.
Ah! I expect this is where our disagreement is mainly coming from. I expect that even Leaf has a dearth of worthwhile seal ideas to research, and that our sealing tech tree actually represents something fairly unique in the setting - specifically, I expect that almost no sealmasters are part of large, cooperative efforts to come up with creative applications for sealing.

Sealmasters are rare, sealmasters willing to do research instead of just crank out the designs they know even moreso, sealmasters doing research with others even MOREso (which means a lot of idea generation will be redundant, since people aren't checking whether anyone has already had an idea and can't be inspired by others' ideas), and groups like the huge number of mutually trusting and friendly hivemind seal contributors? Likely unheard of.
 
Good to clear this up. Clear voting instructions for anything that deviates from normal are kinda super important, since it is hard to own up to decision when you are not sure what you are even deciding in the first place.



Okay, since I have your attention another question:

Jiraya agreed in a general sense to get Earth Jutsu for Hazou after the Liberator Mission. We've been kinda hoping that it extends to this jutsu request, so that we don't need to spend a favor from Arikada mission on it. Is this a thing that is possible or should we just forget about it?

I concur. I hadn't wanted to spend an entire additional request on getting earth ninjutsu, which Jiraiya already owes us, instead of doing things like getting something to help Operation Uplift, or getting Intel on our families, or getting explicit help for Momma. @Velorien, the special vote you announced carried the implication that the winning Jutsu plan would be selected as Hazou's favor, even though there are several other non-jutsu things people wanted for that. People felt pressured to develop the Jutsu plan anyway because they thought it might be forced to be our favor, and we never got an answer to that question, so we had to make it as good as possible.
 
@Twofold, I think it might be better if we refrain from the use of luminous green for a while, especially in plan titles
This. Forever this.

That's an issue I believe EJ brought up a page or two back, but I can't imagine it's that tough to solve as long as the plan originator includes an appropriate tag (Training Hazou: or Action Plan:) so the program knows how to allocate future votes.
I don't see how this is a problem if people use the voting tags properly.
Yes, I feel certain that people will always e.g. use [jk] to tag posts that are intended only as humor. After all, why would you use [x] and make it an actual vote?

Seriously, expecting people to make extra effort is a bad idea. That's why I didn't implement Condorcet voting in the first place.

One proposal that had been floated is that if the winner flips within a few hours of the deadline, voting is automatically extended by several more hours. One could even add the proviso that no new plans may be proposed or amended during the extended time.
I oppose this. I need voting to close at a specific time so I can schedule writing. The thread needs voting to close at a specific time so that they can manage expectations and general life.

I'm not sure what to do here. The characters are treating social skills as something that is not possible to learn through training and effort, which seems all kinds of silly to me. I guess overcoming your weaknesses is not something ninjas do. (EDIT: Especially when they are like 13 years old.)
No. The characters made clear that this is about what they WANT, not about what they are able to do.

Nobodys ever tapped out a thousand odd words of action plan on a mobile phone.

This might be true, but not relevant to what was being said. @Pahan was saying that someone could make a quick vote against something, then maybe later come back and vote for a plan.

Also, as a bit of unrelated trivia, I will note that I wrote Chapter 1 on my phone and Stephanie Meier wrote her Twilight fanfic sparkly-vampire stalker pedophilia romance on her Blackberry.
 
With the recent decanonised update, I decided to check out what (the hell) was happening over here -- I usually only read the Story-Only Thread. I didn't realise how weird the voting system is. I guess that explains why Hazou is such a fucking weirdo all the time.
 
I'm not sure what to do here. The characters are treating social skills as something that is not possible to learn through training and effort, which seems all kinds of silly to me. I guess overcoming your weaknesses is not something ninjas do. (EDIT: Especially when they are like 13 years old.)

I have no idea what to do with our long term character builds now. Nobby can't afford to get high social, medical, and water jutsu at the same time. Since we can't drop social, either medical or water jutsu needs to be axed to mediocrity.

In short term this means that we can't really afford to raise both Medicine and MedJutsu to 10. If Nobby continues as the Diplomancer he needs to channel that XP to, well, Diplomacy.

Prioritize. If Nobby can't afford everything, get what's most important. Which is more important right now? Nobby getting medical skills and water jutsu, or him becoming a better diplomat? Personally I'd put priority on his medical skills, seeing as we won't be in Konoha forever and so won't have access to hard to access training. Further diplomacy training will just need to come later, and it's not like he's bad at his current level. Plus we're not going to be able to talk our way out of every problem.

For Keiko, adjust your pitch. We are not going to have Keiko become the face of the team, at least not for all social interactions, because she very much does not want to be. If you want to get Keiko to pursue social training do it in the context of her interests and skills. Her sheet's leveling notes say "Her social focus is on Diplomacy and Deal Making, which allows her to negotiate contracts.", so focus on that. She wants to make more and better contracts, she needs to train those skills because Noburi can't do it for her. That they might have benefits in dealing with humans is just gravy.
 
Yes, I feel certain that people will always e.g. use [jk] to tag posts that are intended only as humor. After all, why would you use [x] and make it an actual vote?
I will note that in the bit of my post you quoted I specified that when I said 'tag' I meant things like 'Action Plan:' and 'Training Hazou:', not [jk], and proposed a couple posts later that CounterBot can always just not pay attention to any initial plan vote/proposal without such a designation (so only the plan originator needs to make extra effort).

*Raises hand and waves again*
 
With the recent decanonised update, I decided to check out what (the hell) was happening over here -- I usually only read the Story-Only Thread. I didn't realise how weird the voting system is. I guess that explains why Hazou is such a fucking weirdo all the time.
Eh, some of the plans are certainly weird, but the voting system (currently) is just "cast a vote for each plan you think is good enough and the plan with the most at the end wins".
 
Seriously, expecting people to make extra effort is a bad idea. That's why I didn't implement Condorcet voting in the first place.

Naturally you ignore the votes that are not tagged correctly, that was the point of my post.

No. The characters made clear that this is about what they WANT, not about what they are able to do.

It is good of you to confirm that, because it didn't really read that way to me.


Well yes of course, but he needs to able to keep up with the rest of the team in social and combat stuff. Medical is the one that is easiest to leave lagging. EDIT: Actually, if he's the Diplomancer he needs to lead in social skills.

EDIT: Also I'm considering stuff from the perspective of full jounin builds and how much room there is to get what. Check my sig for the builds to see what I mean.

Further diplomacy training will just need to come later, and it's not like he's bad at his current level. Plus we're not going to be able to talk our way out of every problem.

Actually, our social dice are our weakest point after Stealth and nowhere near where we want them. We need to invest on both Deception and Diplomacy like yesterday.

For Keiko, adjust your pitch.

Actually, I don't think @Velorien took anything from our planned pitch. So I guess the thing to do next is to make an actual pitch. Here's the one that I had in my plan for Chapter 84:

  • Talk to Nobby and Keiko about changing our main Diplomancer
    • Talk to Nobby first
      • Our reasoning
        • High level Diplomacy is really hard, and Nobby is already pursuing two other hard subjects (Medicine, Water Jutsu)
        • Keiko will have to learn to maneuver social situations with the pangolins anyway
        • Vampiric Dew and keeping out of sight go so well together
          • "I am not blinded by the fog of war, Hazou. I am the fog of war. A team mysteriously vanishes in the forest, and you think that of me? No, I am the one who makes them vanish!"
        • It would be nice if our only medic wouldn't be the most obvious target to attack in the party
      • Our emotions
        • Nobby is an incredible ninja and has nothing to prove to anyone
        • He is obviously the most socially adept out of the genin, but that goes for his chakra control and potential as a ninjutsu specialist too
        • It is his call, job designation won't work in the long run if people are not 100% behind them
    • If Nobby agreed, talk to Keiko
      • Figure out with Nobby how to sell the idea to Keiko
        1. It sucks for the moment, but it'll synergize really well with her pangolins.
        2. Some of her best friends are giant insectivore armored tanks. Even when she's not talking to the pangolins directly better social skills will allow her to capitalize on the fear and respect that inspires.
        3. Her bloodline is pretty kickass, but social skills are its big failure mode. If she can get good at diplomacy she can start using them together to be even better at analysis.
          1. She might be able to go full psychohistory in the future.
        4. We've got her back and know she can do this if she wants to
 
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