The worry is that would be seen as fairly derivative and therefore less impactful.

Although, what if we ask Jiraiya how best to help mom?

I wonder why we are so obsessed with Hazou's mother.

What exactly is that going to give us? How does it help us survive?

There's so much uncertainty in how Jiraiya respond. Are you going to regret the decision if Jairaiya says, "there's nothing I can do" or "I am not willing to trigger a fourth shinobi world war"?

I suggest we focus on making sure our team survive.

Yes, mommy coming with the team is nice, and will increase team survival, but things can happen on missions, especially if you're a missing nin. Mommy can die. Can Hazou live with that?
 
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What exactly is that going to give us? How does it help us survive?
Another Iron Nerve user and a jounin who is hugely loyal to our avatar. Her combat strength and additional knowledge / experience (to supplement Mari's, given that the latter is iirc in her early 20s while Hannah would be in her early 30s) will make a world of difference to our survival if we get her out.

If all we can get is information on her, I'd be waaaay less enthusiastic, which is why we need to ask Jiraiya what we can actually get in exchange for this favor.

Are you going to regret the decision if Jairaiya says, "there's nothing I can do" or "I am not willing to trigger a fourth shinobi world war"?
The decision to ask "what can you do to tell me about / help my mom?"? No, I won't regret it, because we won't have spent our favor and can just ask for cool new seals.

things can happen on missions, especially if you're a missing nin. Mommy can die. Can Hazou live with that?
Things can happen on missions if you're a village nin, see: Dad. At least if she's with us she probably won't kill herself and we can help protect each other. Could Hazou live with himself if he left her in Mist and his actions eventually got her tortured and the disposed of for info, or if she kills herself to avoid that happening, or if she dies on a mission and we never even tried to get her out? The situation isn't nearly as one-sided as you're portraying it.
 
Arguments in favor of wind weapon buffs:

  • Summoning advice/training
  • Things Pangolins want (so she can make contracts easier)

We should really ask Pandaa about either of these first. No need to burn a favor when we already have a liaison on demand.

Technique hacking instruction

As others have pointed out, Hazou would be better suited for this since Keiko has used her Monomaniacal Skill on Summoning. Since this is a favor for Keiko, I doubt she will be interested in using her favor on him.

A wind technique which makes her faster

Mari already has wind wall ready to teach and that also has the advantages of increasing the entire party's move speed as well as deflectin projectiles.

A wind technique which creates a breeze (because we want to build an airship)

If such a technique exists, I'd rather have something more along the lines of a push-back technique so Keiko can disengage from an opponent trying to fight her in melee range. So long as the technique pushes the assailant back as well as pushing Keiko away from her starting location it would be trivial to use that for aerial propulsion as well. I am mostly in favor of this alternative.

That being said, I originally proposed wind weapon enhancement since (theoretically) it would improve Keiko's strongest skill combat skill, Weapons, like Roki boosts Hazou's tai jutsu.

From the official Naruto wiki page on Asuma:
Asuma had the ability to use both Wind and Fire Release nature transformations. He would mainly use his wind-nature manipulation abilities in combination with his trench knives to increase their lethality. When tutoring Naruto Uzumaki about wind-natured chakra, Asuma explained that enhanced with it by someone with an affinity for Wind Release, the trench knives possessed enough striking power to pierce through rock.[24] Asuma was also well-versed in ranged wind techniques, such as the Wind Release: Dust Cloud Technique. In the anime, it was shown that he could use his wind chakra to levitate his trench knives and control them remotely.

Infusing weapons with wind chakra allows them to puncture through stone, so Keiko would then be able to attack through any obscuring MEW walls Hazou makes after we have used them for defense. Adding explosive tags to the ends of the weapons would allow us to have armor piercing explosives in case we want to remotely splat someone. Also, she would be able to throw PMYF kunai through walls so that we can create our own escape routes as needed.

Mechanically speaking, having a, for all intents and purposes, weapon style that can be applied to all weapons means Keiko can still use whatever weapon(s) she wants without massive penalties. Additionally, just like Roki the initial levels of the weapon enhancement will allow Keiko to still level up other non-combat skills while still increasing her best offensive skill at the fraction of the cost it would be to get only Weapons levels. Keiko will be leveling up Capacity regardless of our intentions since she wants to summon more Pangolins but this gives her a way to utilize her excess chakra whenever she runs out of Pangolins to summon (like how the leader of the rollers was poofed almost instantly and Keiko only had her weapons to fall back to).

While we may be unable to get chakra blades (for now), if the QM's follow canon in regards to wind infusing training, Keiko will still need to practice first with a genuine chakra blade. If Asuma is similar to canon, he should have two and so Keiko could do a training montage like Naruto did in canon. She may or may not need the first ten levels in order to continue improving on her own like Hazou needed a teacher for Sealing, but even if she doesn't explicitly need one having a teacher should make the process itself go faster (I can't remember where in the thread it was posted, but I remember the QM's once saying that Hazou would be able to research faster if he collaborated with Kagome rather than simply working on his own). Furthermore, as a wind technique, Keiko should get some training discounts since she already has 8 levels in Zephyr's Reach.

Don't forget that every single team member still needs to increase skills other than new shiny skills. When was the last time we increased our team's tac move or our stealth? Those are our primary defenses against getting caught and killed by hunter-nin after all.

Anything that can augment Keiko's 20 Weapons dice while still allowing her to increase her needed social, survival, and summoning skills seems to be worth it to me. We could get another utility jutsu but I fear it will just end up like Zephyr's Reach which we sunk a lot of XP into with minimal returns.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien how well-developed is ninja understanding of game theory? E.g. do they have readily-understood terms for concepts like prisoners' dilemma, coordination problems, Nash equilibria, meta...?
 
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I wonder why we are so obsessed with Hazou's mother.

What exactly is that going to give us? How does it help us survive?

There's so much uncertainty in how Jiraiya respond. Are you going to regret the decision if Jairaiya says, "there's nothing I can do" or "I am not willing to trigger a fourth shinobi world war"?

I suggest we focus on making sure our team survive.

Yes, mommy coming with the team is nice, and will increase team survival, but things can happen on missions, especially if you're a missing nin. Mommy can die. Can Hazou live with that?

Hazou deeply cares about his mom, we care about our party's emotional well-being and the well-being of their loved ones (more so for Hazou), and thusly most of us also really want to help her. If we encountered one of the team's loved ones in the field, most of the thread (I predict) would immediately call Code White and evac without lethally engaging, since they are more within our sphere of concern. Hana had a pretty shit life, and we've personally seen her POV in interludes showing this, then the only remaining beam of light is taken from her, and I've been worried that she'll kill herself, which would be a gut punch. I'm still not entirely certain what action would be best for her, since defecting would be dangerous, but right now she's gotta be in a huge despair spiral and the danger of her offing herself or dying in a mission out of apathy potentially outweighs the risk of her dying because of us. I just really want to have that reunion scene. I've wanted to help her since the start of this entire story, and others have too.

And yeah, Jiraiya knowing that there's a Mist jounin with a high defection chance, huge reasons to defect to work for him, and would cause Team Uplift to be enormously grateful? He might actually go for it. Hello there, jounin Iron Nerve-user with a weak claim on clan leadership.
 
Hi all, long-time (well, couple-months'-time) reader, first time poster here.

First off, wanted to say I've really enjoyed the quest so far, and offer thanks to eaglejarl and Velorien (and all you contribute-y people) for making such a tense and engaging story/game.

Also, I'm really glad people are discussing the issue where Hazou offers suggestions that make Mari want to pinch his ear (or would, if she knew about them). It's not great for the quest as a story, and it's suboptimal for us as players as well, insofar as it not only a) prevents us from achieving the immediate goals those suggestions were aimed at, but b) weakens our long-term ability to convince our team members to follow our plans and c) weakens team relations/function in general by bringing up painful subjects. (Though a) is probably the most relevant at this point, we should probably consider the risks of b) and c), especially when we know intra-team tensions are relatively high.)

Hazou is the hivemind-avatar, the character we control, who'll somehow contort himself to follow the letter and (GM-interpreted) spirit of our suggestions. From what I can tell, his teammates are decidedly not; they'll go along with strategies we pass on, if those strategies strike them as reasonable, and aren't suggested in ways that trigger bad feelings. Optimizing Hazou's stats is constrained only by the algorithmic rules of the game; optimizing his teammates' is constrained by the rules of the heart, which may be similarly strict, if more opaque.

I don't have enough experience/knowledge to analyze the utility of e.g. Keiko becoming the talky genin, but I think it's important to consider whether we can pivot to that now, character-wise--i.e., to what extent we can make it palatable to her. Emphasizing the value of getting better at negotiating summons, offering a way to train that's not with Mari*, and not thrusting her into constant social interaction (and simultaneously taking Noburi out of it), all seem like important parts of this.

*Ideally phrasing the plan so that this doesn't involve saying "Oh, and I bet you're feeling really awkward about training with Inoue-sensei right now, so..."
 
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Have we considered possibly asking Big J what he thinks we should ask for?
[...]he'd just shoot us an incredibly disappointed look.
I dunno, he might appreciate us going meta. I certainly would :D

Re: action plan, I added some stuff about how Keiko should keep other ideas in mind (e.g. defensive, mobility, and direct-offense Wind jutsu) and not rely too heavily on Hazou's judgement here, and also added asking the team what they think about passing along our tower-building prototype, since we need to get some reward for that.
Also I may not have actually voted post-update, so
[X] Whose Leaf Does Not Wither
[X] Action Plan: Whose Leaf Does Not Wither

Goals
  1. Survive
  2. Stay on Jiraiya / Leaf's good side, including our minders
  3. Maintain cover / don't cause any incidents
  4. Check up on Akane
  5. Agree on rewards
  6. Get to know more about Leaf / our minders
Methods
  1. Dispel
  2. Greet our escorts less formally - we're glad to meet them, and hope that we can be friends or at least have an enjoyable time together.
    1. If Hazou gets snark for this, point out that as Akane's sensei, it falls to him to keep up the level of youthfulness while she's indisposed.
    2. Throughout the day as we build up rapport:
      1. Build bridges and genuinely try to make friends; get Keiko involved where possible, and Noburi if he is not doing so on his own.
      2. Share Mist and Missing-nin life trivialities, ask about Leaf (e.g. things we do the same, things we do different)
      3. What do ninjas do here to relax? What are their favorite foods? I thought there would be more trees?
  3. Confirm our cover story as well as any disguises we may use. Learn what we are expected to do in Konoha and what we explicitly can and can't do during our stay
    1. Do we need to have any paperwork or identification on us?
    2. Is Keiko clear to interact with summons and/or go to the Summon Realm to conduct business there?
    3. Are there going to be any opportunities for training/sparring?
    4. Specifically, is there a library we're authorized to read at / borrow from? (Assuming Hazou has heard of such a thing)
  4. Go get Noburi's barrel and the supplies to fix it, as Jiraiya instructed
    1. See if we can't find a pack of some kind to disguise it without compromising function, which preferrably doesn't sacrifice aesthetics.
  5. Check on Akane
    1. Do any of our minders know where we could find get-well-soon flowers to bring?
    2. Can we get her some reading material to help pass the time? Engineering stuff, fiction?
      1. If there are issues with us having insufficient authorization to access such material, is there someone else who could do so?
    3. Send (1) and (2) along if we cannot see her in person, and ask when we will be able to visit her.
    4. If we get to visit her, tell her about Jiraya's unilateral decision to reinstate her, and that he didn't throw us out when we brought up our long-term plans
    5. Don't push for a decision about sticking with us
      1. It is a big question, and her recuperation will take time, she has time
      2. Discuss rewards with her (see rewards section)
  6. Leaf tour / sightseeing / leisure time - follow any set itinerary from Team Asuma, or freewheel it if not
    1. Are there any places we should visit as if we were just average tourists?
    2. Is Jiraiya paying for lunch? Hazou is craving ramen.
  7. Once we are back in quarters for the night
    1. Dispel
    2. Make clear to Keiko that Hazou is not especially sure about Wind-weapon techniques are the best thing for her to ask about even just among other Wind techniques (e.g. there may be defensive, mobility, or direct-offense options that have higher marginal utility), and that she should of course put the heaviest weight on her own assessment.
    3. Hazou should dedicate time to actively de-stressing - meditation, stretching, hot bath.
    4. Sound out the team's views on handing our tower-lifting prototype to J, since we have all the pieces sealed in a bag already.
      1. It sounded like he would be willing to give a substantial reward for it, and it's not like he can't work it out himself given a little bit of time since he's already been given the idea, which is totally worth something on its own.
    5. Noburi presumably gets to work on the barrel (Hazou is not suggesting this to him, it's just a QM prompt)
Contingencies
  1. Don't piss off Leaf
    1. Be polite to everyone we meet
    2. Listen to our handlers and follow their (reasonable) instructions to the letter
  2. Try to minimize Kagome's stress level by not making him talk too much / interact with non-teammates if he doesn't feel like it, keeping close-by, encouraging him to eat any of the nice food we get that someone else has already checked for poison (are there chocolatiers in Leaf?)
  3. Safety and Security Rules
    1. Never be in a group of less than two (Except for Mari)
    2. Keep a watch in our rooms even at night
    3. Make sure we all have whatever the local equivalent of white flags are
    4. Try to stay in public areas with a reasonable number of civilians and other ninja
  4. Combat contingencies
    1. White tactics by default
    2. Use any panic buttons Jiraiya has given us (none yet, sounds like)
    3. Try to leave the city or converge on Jiraiya's office to turn ourselves in. Make sure we're doing the equivalent of waving white flags.
  5. Assume we are being spied on at all times by multiple hostile parties
  6. Ask minders / J if we have access to some version of a panic button, whether seal-based or a colored firework or what, in the event of trouble

Here is a draft for what to tell Jiraiya about his utopia question, criticisms or phrasing improvements are welcome and please let me know if there are points I failed to hit based on the thread's earlier discussion of the topic.
You asked why Fire wasn't the kind of utopia I talked about building, despite its military might and abundance of resources. I didn't answer because, given that not a minute beforehand you had said the answer almost explicitly when you talked about how every major player considers only their own ingroup to have any moral weight. And make no mistake, that is what you said - you said you would sleep well after murdering a Sand citizen to save a Leaf one, not that you would consider it a necessary tragedy to protect the people you care about, not that you would devote so much as a second to thinking of how to avoid needing to make that choice again in the future, and you said everyone else feels the same way.

By the time you care more about your country than other countries, about your village more than others in your country, your clan more than others in your village, your immediate family more than others in your clan, you've managed to convince yourself a foreigner's life worth isn't worth a second of thought.

When the whole world does that, it's incredibly, stupendously easy for everyone to become enemies - if everyone's ingroup matters so much more than their outgroup that they would happily slaughter all of the outgroup's children for the slightest advantage to their ingroup, then everyone looks like monsters to everyone else. At that point, it's even easier to say all foreigners are morally irrelevant and unworthy of compassion, consideration, or thought, locking the entire world into a spiral of indifference, distrust, and hatred.

Which gives us the answer to your original question. The reason Fire isn't a utopia is that it, too, is locked into this downward spiral with the rest of civilization, and even though it's strong, it's not as strong as everyone all at once. And if you withdraw resources from maintaining your current military dominance to focus on things like civilian wellbeing and population growth, your outgoup would see that apparent weakness as an opportunity to help their ingroup by hurting your ingroup, which of course they don't care about since you're immoral monsters, and they would take advantage of it. And if you did anything that would put you on a clear trajectory to become strong enough to fight them all off at once, the entire world will throw everything they had at you, even though they'd be eviscerated afterwards and have an even harder time stalling civilization's collapse back into the wilderness, because to them, Fire becoming strong doesn't look like people growing happy and prosperous, it looks like a sea of cleverly disguised demons trying to build up enough strength to sweep across the border and kill everyone they love. So Leaf has to contribute to the status quo - pumping out as many ninja as you can lest the other villages sense weakness of numbers, binding them as tightly as you can to the ingroup lest they fight even slightly less fiercely for the good people of Fire against the evil immoral demons that you tell them inhabit the rest of the world.

But it isn't working, and something has to change, or everything is going to crumble into dust, and everyone is going to die - including Leaf. So, again, will you help us?

Finally, a draft for reward-relevant questions I based on @Twofold's big list. I tried to capture what I think the hivemind will need to know before final voting on a reward. Again, if you find things I missed or suggest improvements to phrasing I will be your best friend for at least, like, a minute.

If for some reason J insists on us giving our rewards:
  1. Most of these rewards are centered around making us stronger and better assets, so it's against Jiraya's interests to be stingy here
  2. Check if he is okay with us discussing fairly frankly some admitted longshots first; if not, skip this section.
    1. Getting Kurosawa Hana out of Kiri
      1. Jounin Iron Nerve-user with a high defection chance, huge reasons to defect to work for him specifically, and would cause Team Uplift to be safer, saner, enormously grateful, and probably more stable due to her greater experience.
      2. If this is gonna start the Fourth Jashin-damned Shinobi War, obviously not worth it, and is obviously a huge ask in terms of difficulty and risk, but is this a thing we that is even on the table as far as favors, or even accumulated favors?
    2. Does any kind of pass to cross Fire borders come packaged with Akane's reinstatement and our continued loyalty?
      1. We recognize that this is unlikely due to the need to maintain deniability, but Akane is much less of a carrot if we can't come to see her (if she does not stick with us) / will need to be able to access Leaf resources and her friends and family if she does stick with us.
      2. If J gets smug / team gives us shit for saying we're loyal to Leaf/J, maintain that since we are loyal to Akane who is presumably loyal to Leaf, we are at least second-order loyal to them, and in any case they appear to represent the best chance at fixing things.
      3. If J asks why we're now uncertain whether she'll stick with us, maintain that we are simply planning for all possibilties and that the choice remains hers.
    3. [Don't actually discuss unless this is moved outside of brackets: Maybe something about agreeing to not immediately slaughter us if something goes awry in the future? We don't expect it will, and we will make every effort to ensure it doesn't, but we didn't expect Hot Springs either and look how that turned out.]
  3. Check if he is okay with us discussing some generalites of less-longshot options before asking for a specific thing
    1. Seal designs: are these even on the table? Would he be willing to give us either an array of low-to-medium level utility seals that he thinks would contribute most to our effectiveness, or to do a deeper dive into e.g. storage seals and the extremes of what they can be used for?
      1. Examples of utility seals
        1. Communication range, especially surreptitiously
        2. Night vision or other sensory enhancements
        3. Advanced alarm seals
        4. SCBA / environmental protection
        5. Eye/ear protection
        6. Sound muffling seals / other stealth enhancements
    2. Jutsu: he said he would get us a teacher at the end of our interactions with him in Yuni - if that no longer holds, how much is he willing to teach us now (e.g. # of techniques at particular ranks - describe the jutsu plan if prompted)
    3. Momma Kurosawa: in the event that we are not getting her out, can we attempt to get a message to her, even just "your son is alive and loves you"?
    4. Can we safely assume we will be given / at least have the chance to buy new ninja gear and essentials, what with our old stuff being potentially biosealer-contaminated?
      1. An up-to-date bingo book or comparable intel would also be really nice but we're not about to spend a favor on it.
  4. Are there missions he has planned for us that he can tell us about before we make our decision?
  5. The update should end at this point for a vote on the reward.
 
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Getting Kurosawa Hana out of Kiri

Momma Kurosawa: in the event that we are not getting her out, can we attempt to get a message to her, even just "your son is alive and loves you"?

For both of these I would add: "If these ideas are currently not doable, we would still like current information on what mom is up to and what her position is in Mist."

She is going to turn up at one point or the other (not necessarily as an ally) and I don't want Hazou to get blindsided by it.

EDIT: Almost forgot:

[X] Whose Leaf Does Not Wither

(I'm going with Hazou's (unofficial) theme color, since I see the next update being about Hazou reasserting his own identity as a sane person. Relatively speaking of course.)
 
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expect that these advantages will outweigh the marginally increased probability of encountering enemy Bloodline users.

Our disagreement here is that I believe the increased probability to not be marginal, but rather, significant. As evidenced by the last time a bloodline was suggested (and only time this happened outside of character creation) a QM swiftly made the bloodline canon and gave it to a clan of hunter-nin, with the implication that they would now be tracking us. Later, Oliwhail(?) accidentally canonised that said clan of hunter-nin was from Hot Springs, and that yes, they are almost certainly tracking us.

(Also note that this is the only time, to our knowledge, that non-canon bloodlines other than Mori, Kurosawa, or Wakahisa have appeared in the story.)

I realise that one data-point is not a trend, but given what happened, I am not keen to encourage more bloodline ideas being posted in-thread.
 
I realise that one data-point is not a trend, but given what happened, I am not keen to encourage more bloodline ideas being posted in-thread.
On the other hand, QMs created Akane's character out of a meme that the players had taken up to the point of @eaglejarl actually putting a green spandex suit into Hazou's inventory for a while, and she's been invaluable to the team. Our OOC writings can certainly affect what happens in-universe --- however Rational it might be --- and it's good as often as it's bad.

Upon the whole, our participation in the quest is premised on QMs not being actually malicious (for all the Would We Do That To You jokes), so I trust that net-net, they will not use our OOC brainstorms to hurt our characters more than they will use them to help them. Yes, right now, there are hunter-nin after us that have a bloodline that we had brainstormed. But, the next bloodline someone describes might show up in an ally or even the seventh member of the nakama and prove as critical to founding VHitH as Senju's was critical to founding Konoha.
 
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Didn't we want to make the world a better place where wanton murder because someone else has a shiny is not the default action?

This would be a bad thing, because civilization instability and whatnot. I'm only for murdering someone to get chakra blades if, according to our values, they are better off dead.

Imagine a missing-nin who resides within Wind (or Earth or Lightning), near the border of Fire. He attacks caravans going to Fire unless they're from his host country. He's powerful enough that this is doing nonnegligible economic damage to Fire, but not quite enough for them to risk an international incident going after him. Likewise, his host country isn't quite ready to get up the nonnegligible manpower to dispatch of him because of the economic damage he's doing to an enemy. Thus, a stable equilibrium where we have a missing-nin that's not causing quite enough trouble for any country to want to dispatch of (even if he has chakra blades which would be a valuable addition to their armory), and our missing-nin is going to be careful to not tip the balance to a point where it becomes worth it for a nation to have him offed. I think we all agree he's better dead than alive. Also, the only thing keeping Fire from offing him (international incident) isn't holding us back, so it makes sense for us to have at him.

This is a very specific story. Some elements follow from others, but requires a missing-nin with chakra blades (rare) who decides, among a lot of alternatives, on this one very specific way of playing the balance of powers to not get killed. It is absolutely a very long shot that a ninja within these parameters exists. But, seeing as it's an equilibrium that keeps a missing-nin from getting himself killed, worth a few percentage points of probability mass.

(I might be misunderstanding how much freedom hunter-nin have with international borders. I also have faith in bureaucracy to maintain that We Have No Missing-Nin At Our Border So Any Hunter-Nin Will Be Viewed As An Act Of Aggression.)

In general, as a hivemind, we're capable of generating a bunch of parallel possibilities. It is in our interest to generate oodles of low-probability, high-reward alternatives that are cheap to check and see what sticks.

something about agreeing to not immediately slaughter us if something goes awry in the future? We don't expect it will, and we will make every effort to ensure it doesn't, but we didn't expect Hot Springs either and look how that turned out.

It is written: "Situation normal, all fucked up."

We should expect things to go awry, at least a little, because that's what normally happens. We should absolutely do our utmost to preempt it. But it's unreasonable to expect that we'll play so perfectly things will never go awry. Likewise, it's unreasonable that Jiraiya expect nothing to ever go awry.
 
Of course, no mission we ever executed had things went perfectly.

Inoue Mari killed a creepy ninja in the Liberator arc, the uplift team getting ambushed by rogue mountain ninjas, the hot spring incident in which we rushed, and now the biosealmistress mission when at the end Akane got unlucky.
 
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I dunno, he might appreciate us going meta. I certainly would :D

That's what I was thinking, too. Thinking over it again, though, Jiraiya doesn't have character sheets or dice-optimizing python scripts, so his opinion may not be all that useful unless he stumbled across another summoning scroll in the last few months.

@Langevin I agree that we should get good at talking to teammates in a way that doesn't upset them. Any time an action plan mentions trying to get them to do something we should probably talk about how to convince them. Maybe not a full flowchart, but just a "don't push them", "emphasize how useful it would be for X", "emphasize how powerful Nobby is and how much more powerful he could be" and so on.

As evidenced by the last time a bloodline was suggested (and only time this happened outside of character creation) a QM swiftly made the bloodline canon and gave it to a clan of hunter-nin, with the implication that they would now be tracking us.

What was the bloodline that got canonized?
 
@Twofold

Restinan said:
It does irk me when Hazou gets called an idiot all the time by his teammates even though he has actually thought things through. That has been going on for a long time though, so I guess I should just get over it.

This is the opposite of true, if a problem has been going on for a long time you should address it immediately :(

So this quote of @Restinan by @OilWhail got an Insightful by @Velorian. There's also the fact that the hivemind primarily models Hazou as a rational adult (with predilection towards eccentricity and munchkinnery)

As the QMs have used thread chatter as NPCs action and motivation before, I'd like to posits that:

Truth:
Hazou is proud of his contribution as idea guy
Hazou handles criticism like an adult
The source of stress for Hazou is borne of protectiveness, and any measure of insecurity or anxiety due to team interaction is OOC


-> Therefore, any feeling otherwise on this thread is divorce to Hazou's mental state.
-> Therefore, there is no problem.

Otherwise:

Mari is constantly monitoring Hazou, due to training him as a leader, and will intervene or supports him as necessary (on or off-screen)

I do feel like Hazou kinda rolls over at the first sign of opposition, though. Maybe it's a function of phrasing "Only do this if they're 100% onboard, otherwise nvm", ehh. The best we can do is strongly insists on something anyway, as we still have no actual authority.
 
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Could you elaborate on this? We already know that a 5SB will fail to form if there is matter in between the seals when it first activates. Or are you asking what happens when living matter encounters the edge of a 5SB? Or something else entirely?
I believe you are thinking of Force Walls.

What I mean is: what happens if the central seal of a 5SB is attached to a plant or an animal? What if said plant or animal is dead at the time?
 
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I do feel like Hazou kinda rolls over at the first sign of opposition, though. Maybe it's a function of phrasing "Only do this if they're 100% onboard, otherwise nvm", ehh. The best we can do is strongly insists on something anyway, as we still have no actual authority.
I mean, at this point, Keiko is willing to give up her favor for a 'suggestion' from Hazou which she thinks is dumb, without justification, because she trusts Hazou's judgement. Additionally, we phrased the face switching conversation as 'what are your thoughts?' Not 'this is our decision.' Neither Keiko nor Noburi would like that decision, and it would likely cause some drama, but I expect they'd follow through if we asked them. We have defacto authority even if it isn't explicit or codified. That comes from us repeatedly making good choices and them seeing the results of our decisions. On the other hand, we've done very little to inspire trust in our social judgement, so we have less authority there.

Personally, I don't mind Hazou being called an idiot all the time (and I also haven't particularly noticed it). Mechanically, Hazou's mental state appears to be determined by the thread, so as long as we don't pass another joke vote, he's really not in danger of mental breakdown. And given they follow his de facto authority, and clearly respect his ideas, I don't mind the teasing.
 
@Twofold





So this quote of @Restinan by @OilWhail got an Insightful by @Velorian. There's also the fact that the hivemind primarily models Hazou as a rational adult (with predilection towards eccentricity and munchkinnery)

As the QMs have used thread chatter as NPCs action and motivation before, I'd like to posits that:

Truth:
Hazou is proud of his contribution as idea guy
Hazou handles criticism like an adult
The source of stress for Hazou is borne of protectiveness, and any measure of insecurity or anxiety due to team interaction is OOC


-> Therefore, any feeling otherwise on this thread is divorce to Hazou's mental state.
-> Therefore, there is no problem.

Otherwise:

Mari is constantly monitoring Hazou, due to training him as a leader, and will intervene or supports him as necessary (on or off-screen)

I do feel like Hazou kinda rolls over at the first sign of opposition, though. Maybe it's a function of phrasing "Only do this if they're 100% onboard, otherwise nvm", ehh. The best we can do is strongly insists on something anyway, as we still have no actual authority.

Could you please go easy on (i.e., not use unless really necessary) colors and bolding? It's alternately eye-searing and hard to read against the black background of my chosen theme.
 
Random thought:

You know, Hazou has the right 'bloodline' to be a typical shonen protagonist, given that his bloodline makes him very good at punching and kicking asses. However, he doesn't act like a typical shonen protagonist. His fighting and punching doesn't convince people to be on his side.

Yet, he is still in many way, a shonen protagonist with his idealism and hope for the future.

And unlike most 'intelligent' characters, such as Bluma Briefs or Light Yagami, he is still relatable; his plans are understandable.

I think it would do well in Shonen Jump as a comic.
 
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I would TOTALLY read a Marked for Death manga :D

Finalized plan, for @eaglejarl's convenience
[X] Action Plan: Whose Leaf Does Not Wither

Goals
  1. Survive
  2. Stay on Jiraiya / Leaf's good side, including our minders
  3. Maintain cover / don't cause any incidents
  4. Check up on Akane
  5. Agree on rewards
  6. Get to know more about Leaf / our minders
Methods
  1. Dispel
  2. Greet our escorts less formally - we're glad to meet them, and hope that we can be friends or at least have an enjoyable time together.
    1. If Hazou gets snark for this, point out that as Akane's sensei, it falls to him to keep up the level of youthfulness while she's indisposed.
    2. Throughout the day as we build up rapport:
      1. Build bridges and genuinely try to make friends; get Keiko involved where possible, and Noburi if he is not doing so on his own.
      2. Share Mist and Missing-nin life trivialities, ask about Leaf (e.g. things we do the same, things we do different)
      3. What do ninjas do here to relax? What are their favorite foods? I thought there would be more trees?
  3. Confirm our cover story as well as any disguises we may use. Learn what we are expected to do in Konoha and what we explicitly can and can't do during our stay
    1. Do we need to have any paperwork or identification on us?
    2. Is Keiko clear to interact with summons and/or go to the Summon Realm to conduct business there?
    3. Are there going to be any opportunities for training/sparring?
    4. Specifically, is there a library we're authorized to read at / borrow from? (Assuming Hazou has heard of such a thing)
  4. Go get Noburi's barrel and the supplies to fix it, as Jiraiya instructed
    1. See if we can't find a pack of some kind to disguise it without compromising function, which preferrably doesn't sacrifice aesthetics.
  5. Check on Akane
    1. Do any of our minders know where we could find get-well-soon flowers to bring?
    2. Can we get her some reading material to help pass the time? Engineering stuff, fiction?
      1. If there are issues with us having insufficient authorization to access such material, is there someone else who could do so?
    3. Send (1) and (2) along if we cannot see her in person, and ask when we will be able to visit her.
    4. If we get to visit her, tell her about Jiraya's unilateral decision to reinstate her, and that he didn't throw us out when we brought up our long-term plans
    5. Don't push for a decision about sticking with us
      1. It is a big question, and her recuperation will take time, she has time
      2. Discuss rewards with her (see rewards section)
  6. Leaf tour / sightseeing / leisure time - follow any set itinerary from Team Asuma, or freewheel it if not
    1. Are there any places we should visit as if we were just average tourists?
    2. Is Jiraiya paying for lunch? Hazou is craving ramen.
  7. Once we are back in quarters for the night
    1. Dispel
    2. Kagome has probably already done so, but if not, Hazou and Kagome look around our quarters for monitor seals. Don't mess with them, since that would presumably piss Leaf off, but we should know where they are, and Hazou should look at any we find. Stop if a nice ANBU operative knocks on the door to tell us to knock it off.
    3. Make clear to Keiko that Hazou is not especially sure about Wind-weapon techniques being the best thing for her to ask for even just among other Wind techniques (e.g. there may be defensive, mobility, or direct-offense options that have higher marginal utility), and that she should of course put the heaviest weight on her own assessment.
    4. Hazou should dedicate time to actively de-stressing - meditation, stretching, hot bath.
    5. Sound out the team's views on handing our tower-lifting prototype to J, since we have all the pieces sealed in a bag already.
      1. It sounded like he would be willing to give a substantial reward for it, and it's not like he can't work it out himself given a little bit of time since he's already been given the idea, which is totally worth something on its own.
    6. Noburi presumably gets to work on the barrel (Hazou is not suggesting this to him, it's just a QM prompt)
Contingencies
  1. Don't piss off Leaf
    1. Be polite to everyone we meet
    2. Listen to our handlers and follow their (reasonable) instructions to the letter
  2. Try to minimize Kagome's stress level by not making him talk too much / interact with non-teammates if he doesn't feel like it, keeping close-by, encouraging him to eat any of the nice food we get that someone has already been checked for poison (are there chocolatiers in Leaf?)
  3. Safety and Security Rules
    1. Never be in a group of less than two (Except for Mari)
    2. Keep a watch in our rooms even at night
    3. Make sure we all have whatever the local equivalent of white flags are
    4. Try to stay in public areas with a reasonable number of civilians and other ninja
  4. Combat contingencies
    1. White tactics by default
    2. Use any panic buttons Jiraiya has given us (none yet, sounds like)
    3. Try to leave the city or converge on Jiraiya's office to turn ourselves in. Make sure we're doing the equivalent of waving white flags.
  5. Assume we are being spied on at all times by multiple hostile parties
  6. Ask minders / J if we have access to some version of a panic button, whether seal-based or a colored firework or what, in the event of trouble
  7. If the topic of why Fire isn't a model for what Hazou wants to acheive comes up again, consider drawing from
    When you asked why Fire wasn't a utopia, I was confused because you had said just said the answer yourself: the major players consider only their own people to have any moral weight. And that is what you said - you said you would sleep well after killing a Sand citizen to save a Leaf one, not that you would consider it a necessary tragedy to protect the people you care about, not that you would devote so much as a second of thought to avoiding having to make that choice again in the future, and you said everyone else feels the same way. When the whole world does that, then everyone looks like monsters to everyone else. At that point, it's even easier to say all foreigners are morally irrelevant, trapping the entire world in a spiral of indifference and hatred, so that the current equilibrium can result from initial conditions where everyone thinks foreigners are fine but cares about their clan and village even more. Which gives us the answer to your original question: the reason Fire isn't a utopia is that it, too, is locked into that downward spiral, and even though it's strong, it's not as strong as everyone else all at once. If you withdraw resources from maintaining your current military dominance to focus on things like civilian wellbeing, other nations will see that apparent weakness as an opportunity to help their people by hurting yours, who of course they don't care about since as far as they're concerned you're immoral monsters, and they would try to take advantage of it. Boom, the next shinobi war. And if you did anything that would put you on a clear trajectory to become strong enough to fight them all off at once, like letting civilians live well enough to lead to significant population growth, the entire world will throw everything they had at you, even though they'd be eviscerated afterwards and have an even harder time stalling civilization's collapse, because to them, Fire becoming strong doesn't look like people growing happy and prosperous, it looks like a sea of cleverly disguised demons trying to build up enough strength to sweep across the border and kill everyone they love. So Leaf ends up having to contribute to the status quo, even if you guys are better about humanizing the enemy than others, according to Akane. But it isn't working, and something has to change, or everything is going to crumble into dust, and everyone is going to die - including Leaf. So, again, will you help us?
    1. What to do about it? Part of that is why we need him on board - preventing wars from breaking out while the fixing is happening, and then figuring out a way to change the incentives that result in things like distrust and scorch squads. Make it so that "cooperate" becomes the winning option even in the non-iterated case of this prisoners' dilemma. That, or make Leaf so strong so fast that everyone's best option is to give up, but even then people won't actually be reasonable since they're scared and angry and distrustful. Even if there were a jutsu to magically restore everyone's view of each other as people deserving moral consideration, it wouldn't be anything like a permanent solution.
  8. If for some reason J insists on giving us our rewards:
    1. Most of these rewards are centered around making us stronger and better assets, so it's against Jiraya's interests to be stingy here
    2. Check if he is okay with us discussing fairly frankly some admitted longshots first; if not, skip this section.
      1. Kurosawa Hana
        1. Getting her out of Kiri
          1. Jounin Iron Nerve-user with huge reasons to defect to work for him specifically, and would cause Team Uplift to be safer, saner, enormously grateful, and probably more stable due to her greater experience.
          2. If this is gonna start the Fourth Jashin-damned Shinobi War, obviously not worth it, and is obviously a huge ask in terms of difficulty and risk, but is this a thing we that is even on the table as far as favors, or even accumulated favors?
        2. If not getting her out, how feasible is an attempt to get a message to her, even just "your son is alive and loves you"? In addition to or barring that, could we get information on what she is up to and what her position is in Mist?
      1. Does any kind of pass to cross Fire borders come packaged with Akane's reinstatement and our continued loyalty?
        1. We recognize that this is unlikely due to the need to maintain deniability, but Akane is much less of a carrot if we can't come to see her (if she does not stick with us) / will need to be able to access Leaf resources and her friends and family if she does stick with us.
        2. If J gets smug / team gives us shit for saying we're loyal to Leaf/J, maintain that since we are loyal to Akane who is presumably loyal to Leaf, we are at least second-order loyal to them, and in any case they appear to represent the best chance at fixing things.
        3. If J asks why we're now uncertain whether she'll stick with us, maintain that we are simply planning for all possibilties and that the choice remains hers.
      2. [Don't actually discuss unless this is moved outside of brackets: Maybe something about agreeing to not immediately slaughter us if something goes awry in the future? We don't expect it will, and we will make every effort to ensure it doesn't, but we didn't expect Hot Springs either and look how that turned out.]
    1. Check if he is okay with us discussing some generalites of less-longshot options before asking for a specific thing
      1. Seal designs: are these even on the table? Would he be willing to give us either an array of low-to-medium level utility seals that he thinks would contribute most to our effectiveness, or to do a deeper dive into e.g. storage seals and the extremes of what they can be used for?
        1. Examples of utility seals
          1. Communication range, especially surreptitiously
          2. Night vision or other sensory enhancements
          3. Advanced alarm seals
          4. SCBA / environmental protection
          5. Eye/ear protection
          6. Sound muffling seals / other stealth enhancements
      2. Jutsu: he said he would get us a teacher at the end of our interactions with him in Yuni - if that no longer holds, how much is he willing to teach us now (e.g. # of techniques at particular ranks - describe the jutsu plan if prompted)
      3. Can we safely assume we will be given / at least have the chance to buy new ninja gear and essentials, what with our old stuff being potentially biosealer-contaminated?
        1. An up-to-date bingo book or comparable intel would also be really nice but we're not about to spend a favor on it.
    2. Are there missions he has planned for us that he can tell us about before we make our decision?
    3. The update should end at this point for a vote on the reward.
 
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IIRC, Leaf Ninja Academy, at least according to Akane, doesn't paint the enemy as evil demons, but recognized that they are people just like them.
 
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