RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

firefossil · Jun 3, 2024

Datamining from Multiversus has voice lines of Pickle Rick trash talking a "little miss anime" with a red hood, scythe, semblance, and dust.

That said such isn't a guarantee. There have been other characters lurking in other character's voice records that subsequently got purged entirely rather than added to the game, most prominently Gandalf. However being present in the post-Roiland rerecorded lines would peg Ruby as having been under consideration relatively recently.

It reminds me of how RWBY got crossed over with DC comics. It seems like there were definitely people at WB interested in doing more with RWBY, despite the actions of a certain exec.

Zam · Jun 3, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
Honestly, the only part about the "were gods so we can't expect them to act like people" that I am actually OK with is whenever its used against the argument of the Brothers doing stuff that doesn't make sense to their eyes. Doesn't mean that they didn't kill millions of people, doesn't mean that what they did wasn't horrifically wrong, it just means that their logic and reasoning would be different than ours and lead to a different conclusion to our, because well, they are alien. It just seems weird though to use that as justification that the Gods are perfectly fine.

As I said, their logic and reasoning was being pissed of at a few hundred people for rebelling against them and so they killed everyone. Meanwhile Light frames his issue as people "Still" fighting each other even though that had zero to do with the previous genocide. Again, I just did a whole post on this so I'll just quote it: I bolded the important sections.

Zam said:
What I mean is the whole "Well they're gods" angle really doesn't work any better than people insisting that the Maidens have to have seasonal powers does. The Maidens do not actually embodiments of the seasons, the brothers are not actually manifestations, embodiments or the inherent arbiters of creation and destruction, knowledge or choice the way Zeus is for storms and hospitality. These are just things they have a lot of power over and not even in specific domains they are literal twins, its just preference and aesthetic.

This isn't about you but in general:
I also find it weird people keep trying to latch onto the "Well they're gods we can't expect them to act like people" and then act like Salem is 100% human and also bereft of any other motives beyond petty selfishness and spite. Despite her also being ancient to an ungodly degree, functionally immortal, very blatantly no longer human and in possession of supernatural abilities no one else has. Hell, she actually was imbued with destructive desires, so by the logic of "They're gods" its actually harder to blame Salem for her actions when she at least is canonically confirmed to be imbued with an inherently destructive impulse by her new nature.

The same cannot be said for the Brothers.

Again, humans were not mosquitos, mosquitos cannot talk to you, they cannot trick you with their words, other Afterans including the Blacksmith is more than capable of understanding or trying to understand people, the brothers are not of an alien mindset they're just dicks.

firefossil said:
It reminds me of how RWBY got crossed over with DC comics. It seems like there were definitely people at WB interested in doing more with RWBY, despite the actions of a certain exec.

By all accounts the RWBY stuff seemed to be doing fine, hell RWBY was internally funded or done via partners, it cost the bastard nothing to keep it. But then this is also the guy who gutted like 90% of Cartoon network for pocket change. Long term business decisions he is not making.

Zurcior · Jun 3, 2024

Zam said:
Now, the Blacksmiths words there actually do support your case, however as before Miles said evolution and Remnant itself is seemingly a creation of the Brothers, so the current Remntantians may be more like unintended successors, not directly invented by the Brothers but existing as an indirect result of what they made.

They do more than support my case, they prove it. It's a direct statement from a narratively objective source that refers to Second Humanity as creations of the Brother Gods. And it's more evidence and canon statements from the narrative than you have provided for your unsubstantiated theory.

PrismatiChampion · Jun 3, 2024

Zurcior said:
They do more than support my case, they prove it. It's a direct statement from a narratively objective source that refers to Second Humanity as creations of the Brother Gods. And it's more evidence and canon statements from the narrative than you have provided for your unsubstantiated theory.

The Brothers created Remnant. Therefore anything that comes from it falls under the Brothers purview as their creation. So they are literally the Brothers creation, but that doesn't mean that they were created directly by the Brothers.

Zam · Jun 4, 2024

Zurcior, PrismatiChampion already outlined my response and given how angry and otherwise rude this topic makes you I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Zurcior · Jun 4, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
The Brothers created Remnant. Therefore anything that comes from it falls under the Brothers purview as their creation. So they are literally the Brothers creation, but that doesn't mean that they were created directly by the Brothers.

The Blacksmith directly referred to RWBYJ, Alex, & Lewis, members of Second Humanity, as the Gods' creations that changed the Ever After. It wasn't a mound of dirt nor a pile of rocks from Remnant that changed the Ever After. It was Humans and Faunus. She didn't call them byproducts or accidents or a side effect; she called them creations. She wasn't being coy nor indirect or trying to be cryptically metaphorical for dramatic flair.

If you believe otherwise, provide actual proof from the story.

Zam said:
Zurcior, PrismatiChampion already outlined my response and given how angry and otherwise rude this topic makes you I'm just gonna leave it at that.

So, are you going to provide any evidence to back up your theory or not?

Zam · Jun 4, 2024

Zurcior said:
So, are you going to provide any evidence to back up your theory or not?

Zurcior, I'm gonna gloss over all your own behavior this discussion and just say that everyone who disagreed with you already outlined their reasoning. I'm not doing it again just so you can keep being angry that some of us are taking word of an author over a statement that could be a case of poetic language.

Anyway, in more optimistic news, a friend of mine recently got their Youtube channel back up and running and is doing RWBY art, they love the series and are very skilled!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UARpGsa7RUs

Pugman · Jun 4, 2024

Zurcior said:
The Blacksmith directly referred to RWBYJ, Alex, & Lewis, members of Second Humanity, as the Gods' creations that changed the Ever After. It wasn't a mound of dirt nor a pile of rocks from Remnant that changed the Ever After. It was Humans and Faunus. She didn't call them byproducts or accidents or a side effect; she called them creations. She wasn't being coy nor indirect or trying to be cryptically metaphorical for dramatic flair.

If you believe otherwise, provide actual proof from the story.

It's not worth it. Some people hate The Brothers so much they refuse to give them any credit.
All some people see are negatives and they can't let go of past actions.

Zam said:
word of an author

Just a quick two cents, that "word of an author" was, as said at the start of this whole debate, was PERSONAL OPINION.
i.e. not a fact with evidence in the writing thus far.

That is all I will say to that.

PrismatiChampion · Jun 4, 2024

Zurcior said:
The Blacksmith directly referred to RWBYJ, Alex, & Lewis, members of Second Humanity, as the Gods' creations that changed the Ever After. It wasn't a mound of dirt nor a pile of rocks from Remnant that changed the Ever After. It was Humans and Faunus. She didn't call them byproducts or accidents or a side effect; she called them creations. She wasn't being coy nor indirect or trying to be cryptically metaphorical for dramatic flair.

If you believe otherwise, provide actual proof from the story.

Where is your evidence that your right though? Where is your evidence that the Blacksmith when she said creation meant the Second humanity was directly created, instead of referring to them collectively as the Brothers creation because the Brothers caused the very events that lead to their creation(death of humanity, creation of the world)? Hell, there are animals that we know were created by evolution and yet people in Christian religions still consider them "one of God's creations"(just look at dogs. We know that dogs were created through evolution guided by human hands but they are still considered one of his creations). This is present throughout many religions, so its not a new thing to refer to anything that was even caused indirectly as a part of a God's creation. And by your own standards here, RWBY+J wouldn't have actually been the Brothers creation either since they were created through a form of evolution that has caused some changes between them and ancient humanity(unless you want to believe that humanity 2.0 never evolved, in which case there isn't even an argument because then your just being obtuse).

Zurcior · Jun 4, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
Where is your evidence that your right though?

Do you have any canon statements as evidence for your theory or not? Because you have a lot of nerve to accuse me of being obtuse when you keep dodging the question.

PrismatiChampion · Jun 4, 2024

Zurcior said:
Do you have any canon statements as evidence for your theory or not? Because you have a lot of nerve to accuse me of being obtuse when you keep dodging the question.

I never said I did have those canon statements. We were discussing a theory about the formation of Humanity 2.0, with the additional information about what Miles Luna's opinion on the matter would be(which would still end up influencing any later canon made by the writers, since hes a writer). You came in saying that it couldn't possibly be evolution on its own because they were called the Brother's creations by the Blacksmith, and I responded that them being called that doesn't mean that Humanity 2.0 was directly created by the Brother's. That was all. We have no canon on what caused Humanity 2.0 to exist, only what one of the writers would prefer to happen if they write out that story line.

And by the way, the only way that my mention of you being obtuse would apply to you would be if you were actually believing that Humanity 2.0 never biologically changed since their conception. So, either you misinterpreted my post or you actually believe that Humanity 2.0 just doesn't follow our knowledge of genetics.

Zurcior · Jun 4, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
I never said I did have those canon statements.

I didn't say you said it. I asked for it.

PrismatiChampion said:
I responded that them being called that doesn't mean that Humanity 2.0 was directly created by the Brother's.

The words used in dialogue are important, and the Blacksmith used simple, direct language to refer to RWBY+J as creations of the Brothers. No words she used implied any other means of creation. If the writers wanted to imply otherwise, they would have made the Blacksmith do so. But that's not what happened. She didn't call them "Remnant's offsprings" nor the "byproduct of the Pool of Life" nor a "happy little accident". The writers had her reference only the Brothers as their creators; nothing nor no one else.

You're basically saying that the Blacksmith didn't actually mean what she said when she said it, and that we're supposed to make a leap of logic to believe that, "Well, actually, you weren't directly created by the Gods. You're only a creation of a creation", is what she really meant even though she never said nor implied that with the words she used.

PrismatiChampion · Jun 4, 2024

Zurcior said:
The words used in dialogue are important, and the Blacksmith used simple, direct language to refer to RWBY+J as creations of the Brothers. No words she used implied any other means of creation. If the writers wanted to imply otherwise, they would have made the Blacksmith do so. But that's not what happened. She didn't call them "Remnant's offsprings" nor the "byproduct of the Pool of Life" nor a "happy little accident". The writers had her reference only the Brothers as their creators; nothing nor no one else.

You're basically saying that the Blacksmith didn't actually mean what she said when she said it, and that we're supposed to make a leap of logic to believe that, "Well, actually, you weren't directly created by the Gods. You're only a creation of a creation", is what she really meant even though she never said nor implied that with the words she used.

No, what I am saying is that saying something is a creation of a God can have multiple meanings. If we use the strictest definition, as in directly responsible for the formation of something, than RWBY, Jaune, Alyx, they all aren't actually creations of the Brothers. That was also my entire point about religions. Many that worship Gods consider humanity as that Gods creation, despite the God never being directly responsible for each individual human. They were responsible for creating the circumstances of current humanities creation, whether by creating the original humans or by creating the world. And thats the exact same situation that would happen in this case. Humanity 2.0 isn't magically not considered one of the Brothers creations if they weren't manufactured by them, it just makes them an unintended creation. The Brothers themselves are still responsible for the creation of humanity 2.0 even if they didn't create them directly, since they set up the circumstances that birthed humanity through their experiment. I mean, if someone made a batch of concrete, would you consider them not the person who made the concrete since it didn't happen immediately? Or would you consider them the person that made that batch of concrete because they set up the circumstances that led to the concretes formation?

Zurcior · Jun 4, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
*snip*

While this is true and I see your point, the context of the Blacksmith's speech was giving RWBY+J the Brothers' backstory. It was not a theological discussion. RWBY+J don't even worship the Brothers despite knowing they exist. Neither does the Blacksmith. I don't recall religion even being brought up in the show since Volume 4.

PrismatiChampion said:
Humanity 2.0 isn't magically not considered one of the Brothers creations if they weren't manufactured by them, it just makes them an unintended creation.

But that's the thing. How could they be unintentionally created when the GoL was the one who said they'd be back? It can't be unintended if he knew.

PrismatiChampion · Jun 5, 2024

Zurcior said:
While this is true and I see your point, the context of the Blacksmith's speech was giving RWBY+J the Brothers' backstory. It was not a theological discussion. RWBY+J don't even worship the Brothers despite knowing they exist. Neither does the Blacksmith. I don't recall religion even being brought up in the show since Volume 4.

It doesn't have to be theological though. They only reason I brought up religion was because its an example of how creation can be used in that way. Thats also why I was putting concrete as a later example.

Though:

Zurcior said:
the context of the Blacksmith's speech was giving RWBY+J the Brothers' backstory.

To many who believe in any religion, their God/s both exist and are a part of history. So stuff like the Bible to people who follow Christianity would be history, not just theological. So yes, it absolutely can be used in anything pertaining to history.

Zurcior said:
But that's the thing. How could they be unintentionally created when the GoL was the one who said they'd be back? It can't be unintended if he knew.

We don't actually know the full context behind that. It could very well be that the Brothers create humanity later and thats what that means, but it could also mean they came back and discovered that a species was really close to evolving into another humanity. Or of course it could mean that they do indeed have the ability to see into the future and they saw humanity come about, but didn't realize it until they saw the future. There are many different possibilities for how they could have known that humanity was coming back other than being directly responsible for their creation.

Zam · Jun 5, 2024

I am so sick of seeing people defend two genocidal egotistists whose sole claim to authority is having the biggest stick. & no "We made you" is not a better basis for authority the might makes right stances of the brothers who can't understand balance, anymore than it is for Jac to abuse his kids. Fact is, not everyone thinks gods deserve special privilege's and some folks are just going to have to come to terms with that as much as any other opinion put forward here.

Ultimately, Miles said a thing, people who liked the term used wanted to discuss it and outlined our reasoning for why we think the Blacksmith could be using poetic language to describe how being born of Remnant would still be considered the Brothers creations even if not directly made by them. Or otherwise why we think Light didn't just whip up a new batch of people but with Semblances this time.

These reasons ranged from how language can work,
To the fact Faunus throw a big old wrench into the equation & they are a species if we're taking characters literally,
To themes regarding 2.0's independence compared to 1.0 getting all their powers from the gods while Aura could be their own,
To the fact Lights proclamation/explanation regarding the moral failures of the last batch not aligning with what actually happened and so coming across as suspicious,
To the fact we have no idea why they'd do this in the first place (& with the reasons provided feeling rather out of character for anyone who doesn't think two genocidal man children aren't somehow special because of the aforementioned big sticks)

One doesn't need to agree with these takes, but these are hardly thoughtless claims of people unwilling to give credit where its due given one of the people making them actually holds the brothers in much higher esteem than I do. But it is also clear that this topic has begun entering a circular format so I mostly wanted to cap off this chat with the above for clarity's sake.

Huh, idle aside, but the gate wasn't even how Alyx, Lewis, RWBY, Jaune or Neo even got there. It was how they left, but as far as we know they all fell in through some other crack or by falling into an abyss. That doesn't strictly matter, I just think its amusing.

Though I suppose Remnantians could have developed Aura on their own without the Brothers intended it, that could work pretty well, like they did remake them but didn't grant the magic cos spite (Cos if they did remake people then refusing to give them magic for fighting amongst themselves makes zero sense, what did they kill each other the instant they saw one another?) & as a result the people found their own path to power.

Anyway I'm off to bed.

PrismatiChampion · Jun 5, 2024

Zam said:
I am so sick of seeing people defend two genocidal egotistists whose sole claim to authority is having the biggest stick. & no "We made you" is not a better basis for authority the might makes right stances of the brothers who can't understand balance, anymore than it is for Jac to abuse his kids. Fact is, not everyone thinks gods deserve special privilege's and some folks are just going to have to come to terms with that as much as any other opinion put forward here.

Ultimately, Miles said a thing, people who liked the term used wanted to discuss it and outlined our reasoning for why we think the Blacksmith could be using poetic language to describe how being born of Remnant would still be considered the Brothers creations even if not directly made by them. Or otherwise why we think Light didn't just whip up a new batch of people but with Semblances this time.

These reasons ranged from how language can work,

To the fact Faunus throw a big old wrench into the equation & they are a species if we're taking characters literally,

To themes regarding 2.0's independence compared to 1.0 getting all their powers from the gods while Aura could be their own,

To the fact Lights proclamation/explanation regarding the moral failures of the last batch not aligning with what actually happened and so coming across as suspicious,

To the fact we have no idea why they'd do this in the first place (& with the reasons provided feeling rather out of character for anyone who doesn't think two genocidal man children aren't somehow special because of the aforementioned big sticks)

One doesn't need to agree with these takes, but these are hardly thoughtless claims of people unwilling to give credit where its due given one of the people making them actually holds the brothers in much higher esteem than I do. But it is also clear that this topic has begun entering a circular format so I mostly wanted to cap off this chat with the above for clarity's sake.

Huh, idle aside, but the gate wasn't even how Alyx, Lewis, RWBY, Jaune or Neo even got there. It was how they left, but as far as we know they all fell in through some other crack or by falling into an abyss. That doesn't strictly matter, I just think its amusing.

Though I suppose Remnantians could have developed Aura on their own without the Brothers intended it, that could work pretty well, like they did remake them but didn't grant the magic cos spite (Cos if they did remake people then refusing to give them magic for fighting amongst themselves makes zero sense, what did they kill each other the instant they saw one another?) & as a result the people found their own path to power.

Anyway I'm off to bed.

...Who's defending the Gods? If your talking about @Pugman and I, I don't believe we've ever defended the Gods, just weren't as harsh on them as you and others are. If your talking about @Zurcior, they haven't defended the Gods either, since they are only saying they believe the Gods created humanity 2.0.

Though seriously, while I agree with most of your post, your first paragraph is highly confrontational and doesn't seem like your trying to account for people having other opinions than you. This is a discussion forum, no one is forcing you to our beliefs but if you start talking about the Gods or responding to us talking about the Gods with your view you have to expect people to respond about how they view it. Especially when you respond to us about that topic.

I mean, look at this post.

PrismatiChampion said:
Honestly, the only part about the "were gods so we can't expect them to act like people" that I am actually OK with is whenever its used against the argument of the Brothers doing stuff that doesn't make sense to their eyes. Doesn't mean that they didn't kill millions of people, doesn't mean that what they did wasn't horrifically wrong, it just means that their logic and reasoning would be different than ours and lead to a different conclusion to our, because well, they are alien. It just seems weird though to use that as justification that the Gods are perfectly fine.

I was using that as something to boost your argument against people saying using the Gods being different as a means to blame Salem or others for their actions, and instead you then respond to me talking about how because the Gods can talk to humans they therefore don't have an alien mindset. Which I still disagree with. You can't expect others to just leave you be when continue to engage in the topic. Now, you may not have this focused at us, but I can't really tell what your talking about since we were just discussing the topic of the Gods and have no way of knowing whether or not your talking about us or some random internet weirdos who post that stuff under artwork of the Gods, like bumblebee haters posting under artwork of Blake or Yang.

Edit: I do find it funny though, that you use Zeus of all examples for your example of a God embodying a concept, since hes kinda known for other stuff. Many of them definitely not hospitality or storms, or his supposed other embodiment of justice.

Pugman · Jun 5, 2024

*Ahem*

Happy Birthday, Nora Valkirye

Zam · Jun 6, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
...Who's defending the Gods? If your talking about @Pugman and I, I don't believe we've ever defended the Gods, just weren't as harsh on them as you and others are. If your talking about @Zurcior, they haven't defended the Gods either, since they are only saying they believe the Gods created humanity 2.0.

Though seriously, while I agree with most of your post, your first paragraph is highly confrontational and doesn't seem like your trying to account for people having other opinions than you. This is a discussion forum, no one is forcing you to our beliefs but if you start talking about the Gods or responding to us talking about the Gods with your view you have to expect people to respond about how they view it. Especially when you respond to us about that topic.

I am referring back to the long and ongoing string of arguments that this one is simply the most recent version of, though also the suggestion the gods are orchestrating everything to try and help Salem, sure as hell seems like defending them to me.

Not to be blunt but there's been no shortage of confrontational tones throughout this conversation, something I highlighted several times while holding my tongue, and I had no desire for my intention to summarize the course of this debate to be seen as acquiescence rather than an acknowledgement it was a waste of time.

PrismatiChampion said:
I was using that as something to boost your argument against people saying using the Gods being different as a means to blame Salem or others for their actions, and instead you then respond to me talking about how because the Gods can talk to humans they therefore don't have an alien mindset. Which I still disagree with. You can't expect others to just leave you be when continue to engage in the topic. Now, you may not have this focused at us, but I can't really tell what your talking about since we were just discussing the topic of the Gods and have no way of knowing whether or not your talking about us or some random internet weirdos who post that stuff under artwork of the Gods, like bumblebee haters posting under artwork of Blake or Yang.

Edit: I do find it funny though, that you use Zeus of all examples for your example of a God embodying a concept, since hes kinda known for other stuff. Many of them definitely not hospitality or storms, or his supposed other embodiment of justice.

PrismatiChampion said:
I was using that as something to boost your argument against people saying using the Gods being different as a means to blame Salem or others for their actions, and instead you then respond to me talking about how because the Gods can talk to humans they therefore don't have an alien mindset. Which I still disagree with. You can't expect others to just leave you be when continue to engage in the topic. Now, you may not have this focused at us, but I can't really tell what your talking about since we were just discussing the topic of the Gods and have no way of knowing whether or not your talking about us or some random internet weirdos who post that stuff under artwork of the Gods, like bumblebee haters posting under artwork of Blake or Yang.

... PrismatiChampion you actively compared humans to mosquitos in your post and Darkness killing all of them in response tot he actions of a few as being akin to swatting said mosquitos.

PrismatiChampion said:
To be fair I wouldn't consider that subservience either, rather the Gods getting annoyed that a mosquito dared to drink its blood. I mean, every time I kill a mosquito for attacking me its not because the mosquito wasn't subservient.

That is to say you compared humans capable of communicating with and outsmarting the Brothers to nearly brainless animals that rely entirely on instinct and the killing of an entire planet to the killing of one.

This is the same stuff others keep saying about the gods, that they can just do these things and can't be judged for them by the same metric Salem can be, hence why people blame her for Darkness's actions & just like... Assume Light has a good reason for plotting genocide I guess? Cos again I am referring back to all the discourse surrounding this chat not just this one conversation.

PrismatiChampion said:
Edit: I do find it funny though, that you use Zeus of all examples for your example of a God embodying a concept, since hes kinda known for other stuff. Many of them definitely not hospitality or storms, or his supposed other embodiment of justice.

I used Zeus because he is both well known for being an evil piece of shit god and to be widely considered as such, while also his actions making sense in the Greek context of gods because he wasn't the deity of chastity or human rights. Zeus's domain as a god of hospitality means he takes that shit seriously, but that doesn't reflect on his personality in other areas. IE, he will assault someone willy nilly, but if they are guest in his home, by the fate no, that would be a violation of guest rights and be utterly antithesis!

Its like how when Hera punishes people for being assaulted or seduced by Zeus, its not because she is specifically vindictive in this case, its that she is the goddess of marriage and in her role within the Greek belief system she existed to serve as a warning against any kind of broken vows. It doesn't matter than its not fair, because its not her job within the story to be fair, its her job within the story to be a source of divine retribution making any failure in one's vows seem terrible. It just so happens sexism means that comes off as awful to us because we view it as a reflection o her character and not her narrative or societal role.

The brothers are not like this, they are part of a fictional story bein told in the moment, where-in I doubt the theme will be "Let the two assholes who commit genocide do what they want" so they are antithetical to the heroic characters, IE, they are a villainous force within the narrative not a heroic or neutral or ignorant one. Outside of theming and into in universe world building, both hold equal sway over all four concepts/powers and basically do whatever suits them when it suits up and to including violating their entirely invented 'balance'. Hence why I compare them to men like Adam and Jac, because they are much closer to them or Ironwood in terms of being hypocritical bastards who only utilize high minded ideas when it suits them and casually violate them for selfish or petty reasons.

This is the stuff I mean when I say them being Afterans or "Gods" doesn't actually serve as any means of abdicating or abjuring their responsibility for their intentionally cruel and murderous actions.

The brothers are like Adam when he kills his own followers for sassing him, like Jac when he lets people freeze to cover his own ass, like Ironwood when he puts Mantle in danger and then leaving it to die because it less important to him than Atlas. The brothers are not motivated by high minded ideals anymore than Adam was by justice, they may think they are smart just as Jac did but they can still be fooled, they may think that their actions are righteous but like Ironwood they are villainous. & just like all those men, they knew enough, or had the resources to learn, to know better than to act as they do but don't. Both in universe and within the narrative as far as I see it.

This is a stance that has been actively and aggressively rejected by multiple forum posters here and has been for a long time. As I said in my original post, people are free to think what they want and post as they please, but don't ever expect to convince me that the brothers genocide are anything but villains.

Matrix Dragon · Jun 6, 2024

MetropolisMCU said:
That the Brothers don't have a say in the fate of humanity... because this humanity isn't theirs.

I gotta say, that would be a fascinating little twist, and really raise the question of why the asshole cursed Ozma with reincarnation and the threat of the relics...

PrismatiChampion · Jun 6, 2024

Zam said:
... PrismatiChampion you actively compared humans to mosquitos in your post and Darkness killing all of them in response tot he actions of a few as being akin to swatting said mosquitos.
That is to say you compared humans capable of communicating with and outsmarting the Brothers to nearly brainless animals that rely entirely on instinct and the killing of an entire planet to the killing of one.

This is the same stuff others keep saying about the gods, that they can just do these things and can't be judged for them by the same metric Salem can be, hence why people blame her for Darkness's actions & just like... Assume Light has a good reason for plotting genocide I guess? Cos again I am referring back to all the discourse surrounding this chat not just this one conversation.

...Please tell me your joking. Please tell me that you are just making some long joke instead of misinterpreting my post that badly.

It was about the relationship between the gods and the humans. I was never comparing humans to mosquitos, I was saying that that was the relationship between the Gods and humans. Humans were just insects underneath their feet. Barely a nuisance. That entire conversation we were having was over you saying they wanted subservience, and I was saying I don't think its exactly that, and compared the way they view humans to the way we view insects, though now that I am thinking about it rodents would have been a better example. We don't expect subservience from insects or rodents, we expect most of them to when they get in our way, unless we end up testing stuff on them.

Though I don't know about you, but I feel pretty dumb whenever I try to kill a mosquito and they dodge me.

Zam said:
I used Zeus because he is both well known for being an evil piece of shit god and to be widely considered as such, while also his actions making sense in the Greek context of gods because he wasn't the deity of chastity or human rights. Zeus's domain as a god of hospitality means he takes that shit seriously, but that doesn't reflect on his personality in other areas. IE, he will assault someone willy nilly, but if they are guest in his home, by the fate no, that would be a violation of guest rights and be utterly antithesis!

Its like how when Hera punishes people for being assaulted or seduced by Zeus, its not because she is specifically vindictive in this case, its that she is the goddess of marriage and in her role within the Greek belief system she existed to serve as a warning against any kind of broken vows. It doesn't matter than its not fair, because its not her job within the story to be fair, its her job within the story to be a source of divine retribution making any failure in one's vows seem terrible. It just so happens sexism means that comes off as awful to us because we view it as a reflection o her character and not her narrative or societal role.

Hera probably would have been the better example. Zeus is also known as the God of justice, the freedom keeper, and the keeper of oaths. He might have his own twisted sense of justice, but he definitely had Apollo work as a slave a few times, and Poseidon once. And nothing needs to be said about the oath part.

Zam said:
This is the stuff I mean when I say them being Afterans or "Gods" doesn't actually serve as any means of abdicating or abjuring their responsibility for their intentionally cruel and murderous actions.

Zam said:
This is a stance that has been actively and aggressively rejected by multiple forum posters here and has been for a long time. As I said in my original post, people are free to think what they want and post as they please, but don't ever expect to convince me that the brothers genocide are anything but villains.

So I saw one person in the last two pages do anything similar to that. And they weren't even saying that the Gods were perfectly fine and not in the wrong, they were saying they might have realized they made a mistake and tried to fix it in a misguided way. Even though I don't agree with them, that is definitely not trying to absolve the Gods of what they did. In fact, they responded to you once when you asked your question and then stopped responding to you about the topic. So I'm now just trying to figure out what brought that post on? I am not seeing any sign of people trying to absolve the Gods of their crimes, only people trying to understand their actions. And then suddenly your post saying people are trying to convince you that the Gods shouldn't be held accountable for their actions popped up out of no where.

Zam · Jun 6, 2024

PrismatiChampion said:
...Please tell me your joking. Please tell me that you are just making some long joke instead of misinterpreting my post that badly.

It was about the relationship between the gods and the humans. I was never comparing humans to mosquitos, I was saying that that was the relationship between the Gods and humans. Humans were just insects underneath their feet. Barely a nuisance. That entire conversation we were having was over you saying they wanted subservience, and I was saying I don't think its exactly that, and compared the way they view humans to the way we view insects, though now that I am thinking about it rodents would have been a better example. We don't expect subservience from insects or rodents, we expect most of them to when they get in our way, unless we end up testing stuff on them.

Though I don't know about you, but I feel pretty dumb whenever I try to kill a mosquito and they dodge me.

The gods created rules, arbitrarily and then would arbitrarily enforce or break them on whims. The gods received offerings, we see this with both of Salem's visits. The gods do not take well to people not doing what they are told, either peacing out instantly or going into over kill mode. Then Light drags Ozma's soul out of cold storage and gives him marching orders on what state he wants the people of Remnant to be in and if they are not they all die. Just because Light isn't screaming "Obey!" every other sentences doesn't mean he doesn't expect/demand subservience.

Also as to the "I was never comparing humans to mosquitos, I was saying that that was the relationship between the Gods and humans. Humans were just insects underneath their feet." Do you just mean in terms of raw power, or in some other way because the raw power way is the only way that comparison makes sense and even then if I could communicate with mosquitos or rodents I'd both be far less inclined to kill them and we would still be on more even parity as intellectuals at the very least, so the dynamic is still different.

PrismatiChampion said:
Hera probably would have been the better example. Zeus is also known as the God of justice, the freedom keeper, and the keeper of oaths. He might have his own twisted sense of justice, but he definitely had Apollo work as a slave a few times, and Poseidon once. And nothing needs to be said about the oath part.

Probably, that's a fair call.

I mean, the Greeks fucking loved slavery, they were bastards for it. Hence why I rather the Achaemenid Empire, they at least said slavery was bad rather than a moral good society ran on. Also they didn't murder women doctors, which a lot of Greece also did :/

PrismatiChampion said:
So I saw one person in the last two pages do anything similar to that. And they weren't even saying that the Gods were perfectly fine and not in the wrong, they were saying they might have realized they made a mistake and tried to fix it in a misguided way. Even though I don't agree with them, that is definitely not trying to absolve the Gods of what they did. In fact, they responded to you once when you asked your question and then stopped responding to you about the topic. So I'm now just trying to figure out what brought that post on? I am not seeing any sign of people trying to absolve the Gods of their crimes, only people trying to understand their actions. And then suddenly your post saying people are trying to convince you that the Gods shouldn't be held accountable for their actions popped up out of no where.

As I said, this debate has been going on for years, since the moment we found out the gods wiped out the first generation and threatened to wipe out the next there have been people arguing that we cannot judge the brothers by the same metric we do Salem, that being gods they simply operate differently and so on and so forth. Its part of why I find the conversation so tiresome, because the core argument behind it all never seems to change and its been going on for literal years. Also most of my post was just summing up the evolution VS creation matter so I am unsure why you are so focused on this side of things, again I'm hardly the only person in this chat whose been sharp toned, and it at least took me awhile to get there.

GuestLurker · Jun 6, 2024

Zam said:
Hence why I rather the Achaemenid Empire, they at least said slavery was bad rather than a moral good society ran on.

They still had it, but I believe it was more regulated than in other places, from what I remember about it? I don't look into it often enough to know, even though Cyrus is arguably the only truly "GOOD" emperor in history.

Zam said:
As I said, this debate has been going on for years, since the moment we found out the gods wiped out the first generation and threatened to wipe out the next there have been people arguing that we cannot judge the brothers by the same metric we do Salem, that being gods they simply operate differently and so on and so forth.

I think the problem is that you see those all as the same argument instead of looking at the different reasons why different people think that the Brothers are special cases to break down why they're wrong to put them on that pedestal.

Zam · Jun 7, 2024

GuestLurker said:
They still had it, but I believe it was more regulated than in other places, from what I remember about it? I don't look into it often enough to know, even though Cyrus is arguably the only truly "GOOD" emperor in history.

Oh definitely, sorry if I failed to convey that in the initial post I was mostly saying their society didn't run on slavery the way many Greeks did and there at least seemed to be open discussion about whether it was moral or acceptable, and yeah there were if I recall laws protecting slaves. Still not great, but compared to their competition it was a major step up from "Slavery is a moral good & norm" which was most of Greece. Also yeah Cyrus was great, like still an Emperor, but if I had to pick someone to be conquered by he'd be at the top of the list. I mean how good you have you have to be at the emperor thing that even your enemies are like, "Damn, he's cool."

GuestLurker said:
I think the problem is that you see those all as the same argument instead of looking at the different reasons why different people think that the Brothers are special cases to break down why they're wrong to put them on that pedestal.

Maybe? It feels hard to distinguish between them to be honest, but that may be because I find any ground given to the genocide brothers inherently irksome.

Matrix Dragon said:
I gotta say, that would be a fascinating little twist, and really raise the question of why the asshole cursed Ozma with reincarnation and the threat of the relics...

I would say entitlement and or to fuck with Salem out of pettiness, maybe another experiment, probably a combo of all three or more. I can't envision a particularly good reason to go around violating the "Balance" of life and death, mutilating souls and and plotting a genocide so that may just be me.

GuestLurker · Jun 7, 2024

Zam said:
I mean how good you have you have to be at the emperor thing that even your enemies are like, "Damn, he's cool."

Guy was the first one called a messiah IIRC, because he made the situation that much better for everybody, and he became emperor by fighting what some consider one of the most evil empires in history. I hate empires on principle, but still: "Damn, he's cool."

Zam said:
I would say entitlement and or to fuck with Salem out of pettiness, maybe another experiment, probably a combo of all three or more. I can't envision a particularly good reason to go around violating the "Balance" of life and death, mutilating souls and and plotting a genocide so that may just be me.

He thinks whatever it is is a good reason, just like he thought not having to clean up and make more space for people when they grow or multiply was a good reason to make death a thing.

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