Apparently Naruto hasn't told Orochimaru about the rift yet. We should ask him [Naruto] about that.
Suddenly I'm taking Kagome's theory that Naruto is possessed by the Nine-Tails a lot more seriously...
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- United States
Damn, this is the answer to something we've been wondering for the entire quest!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Though this sounds plausible to me, Oro isn't necessarily right about everything
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
...
*sigh*
Off to change the passwords...
Damnit!
*changes them again*
faflec, would you do the honors?
He might have been referring to Mari...
- Location
- United States
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Has Hazō downloaded unspecified privacy/OPSEC seals during his visits to the Tower, the Nara private conference room, and other secured sites he's been in?
Not asking for mechanics, just whether we have things we can throw prep days at if we pursue improving our OPSEC capabilities.
EDIT: Further instances showing the prevalence of privacy seals (some of which Hazō would have automatically downloaded in-scene).
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Oro-chan doesn't have time to explain the math behind potential energy stored in substances pushed against their diffusion gradients
EDIT:
Fixed, thanks.
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- Location
- Washington, USA
Even if he's wrong about root causality, seems relevant enough to core competence that it'd have to be one of those Newtonian-vs.-Relativistic things where his theory produces accurate-enough predictions under practically all attainable conditions. Would anything hold him back from opening up countless chakra beasts to figure out exactly what makes them tick, if he thought he might need to know? Maybe set up breeding populations of some model organism in isolated habitats with precisely controlled ambient chakra profiles, plot out a whole dose-response curve.
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- He/Him
W h a t
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- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, he has. Not as many as you'd think, however: privacy seals are traditionally placed in a way that prevents the design from being seen, because the last thing you want is a visiting sealmaster (or any ninja with a highly-trained visual memory) to identify which privacy seals you're using and figure out countermeasures for when they want to spy on you.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Was the suggestion incorrect mechanically? It's what's in Kei and Akane's sheets - did I forget something that should change it for Nobs..?
EDIT:
Oh, to be clear: I fixed Noburi's. Hazou's was already correct so far as I could tell.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I didn't think you still did QM stuff 🗿
- Location
- United States
Collecting quotes of any instances of privacy seals Hazō likely downloaded (that weren't his own). Please ignore.
Between the quotes I've gotten here and above it looks like Hazō has seen a fair amount, notably including anything Tower-restricted that Jiraiya used during high-OPSEC conversations while he was Hokage and didn't pass down to us, Minato's seals from the time Naruto volunteered them for that Ami cave conversation (and maybe some from the time we were at his house), and possibly some stuff from the Nara.
From quote-hunting people sometimes obscure their permanently installed privacy seals (though not always), but frequently just place them on the ground in field conditions or in plain-sight on the wall when higher OPSEC than usual is needed.
Between the quotes I've gotten here and above it looks like Hazō has seen a fair amount, notably including anything Tower-restricted that Jiraiya used during high-OPSEC conversations while he was Hokage and didn't pass down to us, Minato's seals from the time Naruto volunteered them for that Ami cave conversation (and maybe some from the time we were at his house), and possibly some stuff from the Nara.
From quote-hunting people sometimes obscure their permanently installed privacy seals (though not always), but frequently just place them on the ground in field conditions or in plain-sight on the wall when higher OPSEC than usual is needed.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I like the idea, but this feels like the sort of angle where the Jashin's in the details.
Ultimately, our goal here is to maximize research done (on runecrafting and/or necromancy) without getting caught by the Akatsuki. Getting caught doing runecrafting yields it to the Akatsuki, which Hazou and Orochimaru both agree is unacceptable. Getting caught doing necromancy makes the Akatsuki intent on killing us.
I'm not primarily worried about the Akatsuki catching Hazou in the middle of his research, if I'm being honest. We take our own OPSEC precautions, interrupting a sealmaster mid-research is generally considered unwise, etc. Rather, what I'm worried about is the Akatsuki showing up and demanding to meet Hazou and then interrogating him. In such a scenario, we wrap up our high-OPSEC research, go meet the Akatsuki, and then spills the beans because their Deceit beats his. "Hazou, you have been obeying my order, correct?" --> "Uhhh yes." --> "I don't believe you. If you want to live, tell me what you have been researching and why you think I shouldn't kill you for it."
Doing our research in the Basement doesn't do much to ward against this. If the Akatsuki want to meet Hazou and interrogate him, they're perfectly capable of waiting until we surface for the day, or grabbing one of our clones instead. I must stress: we have reason to expect the Akatsuki to specifically be interested in specifically getting to interrogate Hazou, in a way that means they will not be dissuaded by small roadblocks. If we cannot abide an interrogation (and we cannot, no matter how good our OPSEC was, if we go ahead with forbidden research) then we need a major roadblock to stand a chance of avoiding interrogation.
So we'd have to lean further into the Orochimaru collaboration, staying in his Basement at all times in a way that puts Orochimaru between us and the Akatsuki. This is... expensive. Even provided Orochimaru would agree to this (and I feel he is unlikely to choose to shield us against the entire Akatsuki if he knows that's what we're intending), our contact with Leaf drops precipitously. It is essentially impossible to do clan head work, for instance, from within Orochimaru's basement. It's also not a pleasant location for dates with Ino, or to hang out with Noburi, etc. We've also recently seen how our family treats proximity with Orochimaru as a constant risk to our health and sanity: even if we convince them that we have not already "come back wrong" when we describe this plan, they would likely expect that to happen over the course of our new living conditions.
In truth, I expect a stay with Orochimaru sufficient to ward off the Akatsuki would be comparable to going missing in a lot of respects. We don't officially betray Leaf, is really the main difference, but even supposing everything resolves all hunky-dory then we're still the guy who (in the eyes of the world) pretty much became Orochimaru's apprentice, and that stigma is also going to cling to us.
But if you really ask me, I don't think even this route would be sufficient to stop the Akatsuki. I mentioned earlier that they are specifically interested in specifically interrogating Hazou. He mentions it in this very update, but him retreating into Orochimaru's basement could easily be seen as a sign of probable guilt, that we have something to hide from the Akatsuki. If you were the Akatsuki in a situation like this, would you pack up and go home? Of course not. You would redouble your efforts to reach and interrogate Hazou, since you now have strong reason to believe that if you don't he will attempt to stop your plans in their tracks. Even if Orochimaru drew a line in the sand and said "I will not surrender Hazou to you and will fight to the death to protect him" (and I again feel like Orochimaru would probably not do this) he is but one Essie against half a dozen.
In the end, I see this route leading to Orochimaru telling Hazou to go missing. It's the same calculus Orochimaru made fifteen years ago, after all. If there's no way to complete your research in Leaf, you have no choice but to leave Leaf. His protection is no true subsitute, I fear, for going missing, and I don't feel like it makes it all that much safer to get a head start and begin research before leaving. I would still, as things stand, want to refrain from that kind of research until we are reasonably sure we will be out of Leaf before anyone shows up to interrogate us.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I love this phrase, and vote that the playerbase begins to implement it, immediately.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ughhhh I do not want to go missing with Snuncle. As fun as he is in small doses I feel like this would get old very quickly, and we would not really have a way to get away from him, or the option of defying him if he wants us to start doing some fucked up shit
But we have been obeying the terms of the agreement. We have not done dimensionalism research. They don't expect us not to do any research at all. If anything Runecrafting is something we originally were working on primarily to fix the Great Seal - which is our stated goal as to why we refused their offer (well, the Dragonwar is but these are related).
I think if social rolls were a magic bullet that could let them find out all our secrets unrelated to the theme of the conversation then Orochimaru would already know about Necromancy as of this chapter. He does not. Besides if Akatsuki ask, we can truthfully say that we have been collaborating with Orochimaru on classified secrets of his and that we are not at liberty to divulge them without his permission.
The thing is, we don't need to lie, even if pressed - there is simply no need to divulge all our secrets and it is not something they should expect us to do. It took the threat of annihilation to strongarm Leaf into giving up Clan Secrets - and they cannot do that a second time without due justification. Heck, they cannot even aura blast us into talking without physical assault because we have the Resolve to no-sell that.
Its not like the entire Akatsuki would be coming to question us - likely just one member or a pair - and since the meeting happens in Leaf proper, they would frankly lack the firepower to blatantly violate the village's authority and kill us without pretenses or justification just because they wanted us to divulge our Clan Secrets and we refused - because they could - and would - literally die if they tried that. They show up to our Clan Compound, the Tower knows within seconds and Mari etc are nearby by the time the conversation escalates to that point (which I don't think it would) and so their hands are largely tied in terms of being *excessively* unreasonable towards us. Its not in their interest to be that, either.
Besides, do you really think they would push us to reveal the Snake Sannin's secrets? As far as they are concerned they just want to be assured that we are not working on the Rift. Heck, we even just warned Kisame which should earn a few brownie points in that regard. Some concerns are warranted, some risks are there - but they are not really any greater than those we would suffer if we went missing. If anything, going missing removes all our clout, all our connections and protections and paints a big bounty on our heads, for Akatsuki which would activiely try and kill us at that point - and every ninja village which would love to pry all of Leaf's secrets from our minds, alongside stealing multiple Summoning Scrolls.
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- Location
- United States
Heck yeah!
That's still a decent amount of stuff we plundered just by talking to people at their place, not to mention the stuff people use right in front of us in the field….
(If you can't tell, recent events have firmly rekindled my interest in all things OPSEC. Might be that we research some of privacy seals or runes soon!)
Worse, Oro might prefer Hazou dead to having him wander around the countryside like a godamn lootbox.
If Hazou dies, Oro has a monopoly on PS. If Hazou gets captured, PS spreads to another hidden village, and eventually to Akatsuki and the EN as a whole.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Well that's the other side of the coin, imo. If we think we can honestly get through the interrogation without angering the Akatsuki and being forced to divulge our secrets, then what advantage does Orochimaru give us? Do we think it's likely they'll run into us in the middle of rune research, when we normally have at least one Hazou running around doing non-research things? We have our own OPSEC precautions, and while they're not as good as Orochimaru's they're not half bad themselves. (for instance, all runecrafting notes are stored on the Seventh Path, leaving no evidenc behind).
My argument here is not that we can or can't do runecrafting research, but that Orochimaru's help doesn't provide much comparative advantage. Either it is possible for us to research on our own without his help, or we are not safe even with his help, with very little wiggle room between the two.
Look, we are a Clan Head and a Summoner and our Clan makes up a substantial portion of Leaf's power at this point and Naruto cannot afford to let us die for too many reasons to mention. An Akatsuki pair cannot afford to violate Leaf's sovereignity by blatantly killing extremely important people such as ourselves without due cause because that would provoke the exact same response as killing the Hokage. Sure, Hidan killed Asuma (against Kakuzu's wishes!)... but guess what, one of them died for it and the other ONLY escaped because he is immortal. They are a little short on immortals and Hidan is the one ninja they will not send anywhere near Leaf anytime soon after what happened.
Sure, they blackmailed Leaf for the incident because of course they did, but I imagine they treasure their lives over prying Clan Secrets (and the Snake Sannin's) from our minds out of sheer curiosity/paranoia, because that's what interrogating us to the point we would need to divulge them or die, would amount to. Basically as long as we have authentic reasons to refuse sharing the details of our research while being able to truthfully confirm that we are not researching Dimensionalism/The Rift and have no notes on Runecrafting that they can see, they have no reason to push.
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Well, the ability to do research safely in the Basement is one thing - which means the Akatsuki has no research materials to steal from us even if they demand we hand them over - and that we can truthfully say that we are collaborating with the Snake Sannin and cannot divulge the details of our project without his express approval. That's a rather big gain right there because it puts yet another reason on the big pile of already existing reasons that tell them "being unreasonable in our interrogation is dangerous and not worth it - surface questioning checks out and he did warn Kisame and the last time we acted like utter jerks Kakuzu died for it and we are not Hidan with his bullshit immortality to escape".
Another advantage is the collaboration itself. Orochimaru is... well, Orochimaru. We would get a whole lot of research done in much less time than otherwise and every opportunity to impress him and gain his respect as well as just genuinely interest him and build a relationship, both increases our safety and provides fantastic opportunities like further trades. We have a lot that we can learn from him, sleezy snake psychopath or not, and conversations with him are also helpful if we don't want him to turn on Leaf and become a big bad in the future - we could even try and reform him as a person somewhat which has been theorized is maybe possible.
There are many hypothetical and non-obvious benefits that would have to be heavily weighted for feasiblity and risk vs reward, too. For example - we could get him on board with Project Necromancy if we ever trust him enough to do that. He has every reason to not want Pain back as the entire Akatsuki would hunt him down afterwards - and he would probably like Jiraiya back, too, even if he would never admit it. Plus.. well, its an Immortality vector which is of huge personal interest to him.
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Zampano
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- Location
- Simping for DSB
tbh I think your argument proves too much. Hazo already knows the secret of runesealing, and will give it up in any interrogation scenario. Additionally, Hazo is (arguably) already breaking the Dimensionalism ban by picking up TH, which is a prerequisite for MS, which is part of Kagome's proposed dimensionalism chain. (The Hivemind may or may not have revealed that ulterior motive to Hazopilot yet.)
These secrets will be divulged in any interrogation regardless of whether Hazo does additional runesealing research at home or in the Basement. The downside outcome is already baked in. Instead, the only thing we have control over is the probability of an interrogation, and it sounds like the thread believes that Leaf and Oro and Goketsu privacy procedures are all unable to even delay a visit by Akatsuki.
If that's true, then the only course of action is to go missing immediately.
I hope that's not true.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
With Hazou's Resolve being as high as it is, I'm not certain this is true. Especially given that several members of the playerbase (myself included) have firmly stated that we would rather Hazou kill himself than reveal anything to the Akatsuki.
In addition to all the above, its also worth noting that Akatsuki is a little short on manpower right now. I expect Sasori and Konan to stay in Rain on relatively permanent basis, the former has to to get his research done and the latter is the Kage of Rain. Hidan is not going anywhere near Leaf after what happened the last time, either. Who would they send? I imagine the most likely pair would be Itachi and Kisame.
Ami remarked how Kisame was the most reasonable of the Akatsuki. And we literally just warned him against what would have been assisted suicide on his part. And provided intelligence on the enemies he would be fighting. He will not interrogate us to death on his own accord.
Meanwhile Itachi has vested interest in not thinking of himself as a gullible idiot. He chose to trust us and he would hate to see that trust betrayed because it would reflect poorly on his judgement and make him think he got played like a fiddle. He made visible, genuine effort to change his ways and to treat us as human beings when he had both reason and leverage to just kill us on the spot, the last time. So unless we give him cause - real, non-paranoid cause - to suspect that we went back on our promise, he simply won't push for clan secrets etc.
Ami remarked how Kisame was the most reasonable of the Akatsuki. And we literally just warned him against what would have been assisted suicide on his part. And provided intelligence on the enemies he would be fighting. He will not interrogate us to death on his own accord.
Meanwhile Itachi has vested interest in not thinking of himself as a gullible idiot. He chose to trust us and he would hate to see that trust betrayed because it would reflect poorly on his judgement and make him think he got played like a fiddle. He made visible, genuine effort to change his ways and to treat us as human beings when he had both reason and leverage to just kill us on the spot, the last time. So unless we give him cause - real, non-paranoid cause - to suspect that we went back on our promise, he simply won't push for clan secrets etc.
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Simply put, I think the thread is engaging in collective paranoia over the level of risks involved in an Akatsuki questioning while disregarding the many, many reasons why they would neither want nor be able to push things quite so far as to realize our fears, even putting aside the fact that so far we are adhering to the deal agreed upon and plan on doing so for months to come. Practically for what the thread fears to happen, they would have to come precommitted to murdering us and merely looking for an excuse to do so (like Hidan did to Asuma). And then chances are at least one member of the Akatsuki pair that came would die in the aftermatch, if not both. Caution is advised, sure, but...
I don't think I want to go missing and abandon Leaf and Clan Gouketsu and all our social connections and clout and protections and Uplift reforms and make ourselves a guaranteed enemy of the Akatsuki that will be actively hunted by them AND every village for our treason and shinies, all while we'd even struggle to FOOM and get a good XP rate anymore.
I don't think I want to abandon everything Hazou has been working towards all quest long over suspicion borne of a fear that (I believe) has a very small chance of ever being realized - especially when we have options which mitigate the risks even further and we clearly do.
I don't think I want to go missing and abandon Leaf and Clan Gouketsu and all our social connections and clout and protections and Uplift reforms and make ourselves a guaranteed enemy of the Akatsuki that will be actively hunted by them AND every village for our treason and shinies, all while we'd even struggle to FOOM and get a good XP rate anymore.
I don't think I want to abandon everything Hazou has been working towards all quest long over suspicion borne of a fear that (I believe) has a very small chance of ever being realized - especially when we have options which mitigate the risks even further and we clearly do.
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