This is tricky for us as players to anticipate because we are operating under the assumption that there is no social combat between teammates so there is no point to explicitly warn Mari not to do that. It's a given.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that I think Keiko misinterpreted the situation and there was no actual social combat taking place.

Remember, she is an unreliable narrator not just in the way all limited PoV retellings are: she is also lying to herself a lot because she doesn't like herself very much. She is also a pessimistic person in general.

If she always thinks the worst of herself and how others would react to her, then of course she would interpret everything Mari said under that lense. Anything that validates her perception of people hating her will get amplified and signs to the contrary will be ignored.

And just as a general statement to what I read over the last few pages:

1) I am vehemently opposed to apologizing to Keiko or Mari. Not because I think we are above reproach but because we have not established what exactly happened. People are quick to assume that Hazou deliberately used Mari to attack Keiko and therefore we have something to apologize for. But as long as we actually find out the truth there is no point in apologizing. I don't want Hazou's apologies to become worthless nor do I want him to become some sort Mari-lite martyr.

2) Some of the posts arguing to ignore/punish Keiko were painful to read (like "let's kill Kagome for trying to murder Minami" levels of painful). I like all of the characters in Team Uplift - including their flaws. And I really don't want to play Sociopath Simulator 2019 where we discard family members because "they are too much work" or "offer little RoI" (not quoting anyone in particular, just the impression I got).


I don't think cutting off family members necessarily makes this a "Sociopath Simulator." While I do wish for Keiko to be happy and not ridden with as much guilt as she currently is for the Seven Path Genocide, I think there are literally two people who could feasibly help her though this: Ami and Tenten. Ami because she's literally seen her as perfect for her entire life and Tenten because she's the only other person in her world who she actually trusts enough to make the minimal amount of physical contact with her (seriously, when she freaked out when Kagome touched her, I felt hurt). I didn't include Mari because, as of last chapter, it seems like Keiko has perceived her as a hostile social agent (at least in that single scenario).

I would also like to mention that we have been extremely patient with Keiko up until Jiraiya's death. Despite this patience, I rarely felt that she really cared for us in an intimate manner. I certainly felt this form Noburi, who wears his emotions on his sleeve, and similarly from Akane. I think this may be important to bring up, if not at this moment, at some point in the future, because it would be hard to believe that neither Hazou, Noburi, or Akane feel at all hurt by her manner.

Of course, this may be myself projecting neurotypical behavior onto a character who clearly displays non-neurotypical thoughts and behaviors.



@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail
Before I forget, while the whole "threatening to kill Hazou" thing can be funny, I would like to know how Hazou actually feels regarding that. While we as the Hive Mind may not take something seriously, Hazou's emotions should be taken into account.

[X] Plan Talk To Keiko and Ino
 
Cool.

What about this? @Vecht?
  • Aftermath:
    • Talk to Keiko. Reaffirm you're still family.
      • CCnJ: There were better ways to handle it on both of your parts. Hazou shouldn't have tried to override her after it was made clear she thought her decision through. Keiko shouldn't have presented us with an ultimatum; she should've trusted us enough to discuss it in advance, to at least consider other options.
    • You've made a bigger mistake with Mari. She manipulated Keiko on your orders — because you've misjudged her mental state, didn't take into account how her depression would bias her. You'll need to take it into account going forward.
    • Talk to her. Admit your mistake, reaffirm your full responsibility over it.
      • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan".
      • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
I'm leery of trying to CCnJ Mari; I feel it'd require a full plan, not part of a subsection.
 
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I'm talking about the fact that Hazou intended on continuing the argument past the point where it was reasonable to do so. Whether he did it himself or had Mari do it is irrelevant: he should not have tried to persuade Keiko to change his course, and should have either accepted her decision or, at the very least, gotten confirmation that Keiko was willing to consider alternate solutions before discussing them.
It's entirely reasonable to be bewildered and confused and a bit angry that Keiko just decided to unilaterally do something that effects pretty much everyone you care about in a potentially extremely negative way

At absolutely no point did she come up to us and say "Hey Hazou, this thing is really bothering me still and I'm thinking about just ditching the deal entirely. Like, I really really want to do that and I just don't want to sell any weapons to the 7th Path anymore, its too much for me."

What we got was aggression and the Team Dynamics equivalent of a "Checkmate."

Instead of talking to anyone about this, about how she feels about this, about what she wants to do about this, she spent her time reading up on Leaf legalese and preparing for "Keiko stands up at dinner and decides that The Matter Is Closed." She even brought Tenten there for moral support.

Quite frankly, I'm totally fine with ditching the Pangolin Deal. So what? We can pull off some bullshit to get money. We can probably do some 4d chess bullshit to get more scrolls anyway. I'm proud that she's brave enough to bring this up.

Thats not the problem here.

The problem is, in typical Keiko fashion, she priveleged "The Team will not care about my opinions or what I have to say so I must make sure this gets done regardless." or whatever over actually communicating literally any of this like a teammate.

I thought we already hashed this out with the Hazou-Keiko-Ami arc, in all honesty:

And what is left when my fury has exhausted itself…

"…is the knowledge that you never asked. You never cared."

Hazō flinched. "That isn't true at all, Keiko. I just thought… if I asked, you'd dismiss it out of hand. I thought it would better to at least have one meeting first."

"Of course I would!" Keiko said. "The very idea is appalling." She gestured in the vague direction of the inn with two frustrated hands. "Witness what you wrought after a single meeting!"

But then her hands fell to her sides as if the life had been drained out of them. "Yes, I would have refused. But Hazō, that is the point where normal people seek to persuade. You could have offered whatever arguments were compelling enough to override Jiraiya's better judgement. You could have considered my personality, which you know better than most, and the reasons behind my refusal, and applied your prodigious creativity to addressing my concerns. And even then… if despite your best efforts I held fast to my position..."

Stop being a pile of idiots that NEVER TELLS THE OTHERS ANYTHING and work together like an actual goddamn team. This isn't hard to do. It takes literal minutes! Pretty much all of those conversations happened on the order of 5 to 10 minutes. Is it so difficult to talk to your blood-brother about such concerns? Why? Why is it so goddamn difficult to communicate? Why is it so hard to work on improving these skills when all parties involve acknowledge that they frequently misunderstand each other and there are significant instances in which this causes massive problems?

It's just so petty to me.
 
It's literally the CCnJ scene from Noumero's plan with the Ino section from huhyeahgoodpoint's plan. I'll refine it later.

[X] Action Plan: Discussions and Condolences

Word Count: ???
  • About yesterday...:
    • You screwed up. The Pangolin situation distressed Keiko extremely, until she clearly couldn't bear it, and she put thought into ensuring that her decision won't hurt the clan. You shouldn't have immediately ordered Mari to stop her. Apologize for that at the first opportunity; reaffirm that you're still family.
      • But Keiko made a mistake as well. She shouldn't have made an unilateral decision, she should've trusted us enough to discuss it in advance, at least consider other options.
    • But you've failed Mari more. She manipulated Keiko on your orders — because you've misjudged Mari's mental state, didn't take into account how her depression would bias her. Your mistake likely exacerbated it.
    • Talk with Mari. Admit your mistake, reaffirm your full responsibility over it.
      • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan".
      • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Go meet Ino.
    • Ask Mari for advice on a flower bouquet of mourning.
      • Intended meaning should be "we do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
    • Go ask to see Ino.
      • If she is not taking visitors, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
      • If she is taking visitors, offer the bouquet and offer to commiserate.
        • It's true. Hazou doesn't know what she's lost.
        • He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
        • But Hazou would like to know what we did lose.
      • If she's up to it, we can talk shop.
        • Who are the Yamanaka - or really, the Nara, Yamanaka, and Akimichi - supporting for the Hat?
        • Is there anything else we can do to help?
        • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
 
Frankly, I think that discussions with Mari can and should be deferred until after the immediate political crisis is over. Telling her "Hey we'll need to talk after the whole hat kerfuffle is sorted out" is fine -- giving her a form of ultimatum for personal growth is not.
 
Cool.

What about this? @Vecht?

I'm leery of trying to CCnJ Mari; I feel it'd require a full plan, not part of a subsection.

Eeeeeeeeh not happy but with it's markedly less likely to end in bloodshed and tears.

With Keiko, can you bring up the argument we had with Jiraiya before we left? Point to that as evidence that we will be glad to see an end to the Pangolin genocidal conquest. Stress that our plans with respect to MAD on the 7th path (even if she thinks it was misguided) were ultimately aimed at creating a lasting peace for as many clans as possible. If she wants to cut the deal entirely, we support her.

I would also suggest that she allow us to order her to end the deal in the capacity as Clan Head so that she can use that to position herself better reputationally in the fallout.

Regarding Mari, how about something like this to replace the two bullets? :
  • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko and using her to do so. Thank her for her attempt to intervene. Reaffirm you take full responsibility for any actions she takes to protect the clan.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". The clan means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
[x] Action Plan: Impure World Domination
 
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Stress that our plans with respect to MAD on the 7th path (even if she thinks it was misguided) were ultimately aimed at creating a lasting peace for as many clans as possible
I think she understood this? Her arguments were purely deontological, not utilitarian: she didn't want to feel responsible for selling weapons to genocidal empires, even if that resulted in less deaths in the future. "A path to eventual world peace so simple and effective it could only have been conceived of by an original thinker without peer" — I don't think she was being sarcastic here.

Implementing the rest.
 
It's a little late, but thanks for planning, voting, and writing the update that reunites Akane with the team, guys. That's one stress box cleared.

for just this one moment, she was at peace.

Cute. I'm sad that Keiko, and tbh irl people, don't share their triumphs with their friends more. Nevertheless, I'm pleased that Keiko has grown enough to have actual joy, occasionally, and wanted to spread them to people she loves and whom loves her.

second, a flash of steely-eyed focus behind her smile almost made Kei feel afra

Are we sure Mari 'failed'? Her manipulation was like a cudgel. She very obviously takes into account Tenten's presence and I'd like to think Hazo has the presence of mind to intercede if she hadn't.

Would it be possible to get Hazo POV update right after the dinner?

he priest raised his hands, and without interrupting his reading, began to quickly juggle the seven gems, clockwise as was only prop

Hehe. I dearly hope it was some Jiraiya-type smartarse who came up with that juggling idea to get out of a wedding.

"Then Mori visited me two days ago and a number of things became clear

A bit confused by the timeline. Confused that Shikamaru so completely dominate the whole clan at deception; our values are aligned, but I guess we ought to be on guard or deceive him ourselves as well.

Is Ami forming a clanless clan going to be good or bad? It's going to look real uncomfortable to clans and closely allies us in their estimations.

I think, going forward, it's important to solidify Hazou'a trait as open to discussions, even more so than now. 'A highly creative control freak with poor grasp of secrecy' reputation can be improved, we don't want people to work *around* us.
 
Changes made. @faflec, any objections?

[x] Action Plan: Impure World Domination
Wordcount: 398
  • Aftermath:
    • Talk to Keiko. Reaffirm you're still family.
      • CCnJ: There were better ways to handle it, on both of your parts. Hazou shouldn't have tried to override her after it was made clear she thought her decision through. Keiko shouldn't have presented us with an ultimatum; she should've trusted us enough to discuss it in advance, to at least consider other options.
      • Suggest salvaging Keiko's relations with the Pangolins by claiming Hazou ordered to end the deal.
    • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
      • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
      • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Consider acquiring intel on the Hagoromo's internal politics, perhaps by covertly fishing for information in bars. Considering your disguise skills...
    • ... or lack thereof. How do you wear a wig again? Or appear older? Or feminine? Practice with mirror.
    • Do you have IN movements for putting on disguises? Reflect on the last time you used them. Something is... off.
    • It's been off for weeks, since your entire team inexplicably lost disguise kits mid-Exams.
    • What about spotting disguise? Logically, if you suspect an infiltrator, you should check their height, weight... but instead you're inclined to hit them? And Noburi too...
  • Meet with Kagome and Mari (secure room).
    • Describe your disguise-related freakout.
    • Mari, an infiltration specialist: Did you notice anything wrong? Has Hazou gone mad?
    • Kagome: any idea what happened?
    • Discuss the topic in-depth. Figure out whether you or the world is crazy; pin down how exactly.
  • Meet with Ami. Secure room at the compound: Anti-Hyuuga seals, Silence Mines. Yuuichi waits outside.
    • Accept her previous terms: no social games, clear exchange of information and commitments.
    • If investigation into disguises bore fruits:
      • You possess novel information of major importance to infiltration specialists. Likely unique information.
      • You're willing to reveal it for a favour.
      • Don't answer any questions about it unless she accepts.
    • Spend favour(s):
      • First: "Work with me to maximize my personal influence on Leaf politics."
        • Whether by elevating the Gouketsu, helping Mari become Hokage, taking down the Hyuuga, introducing cultural changes, or otherwise.
      • Second (if available): "Maximize my social competence over the next half-a-year".
        • Non-binding suggestion: IN social training.
 
Two things occurred to me:

1) I REALLY like how y'all do planning. Cooperative, plans evolving, pieces being shared back and forth... It's brilliant to see.

2) Bullets on Xenforo are in fact a nightmare. If y'all want to try doing plans without them, that's fine. Either do short paragraphs or do a "bullet list" in Markdown style:

* Section 1
** Subitem
*** Sub-subitem

* Section 2
** Item 2.a
*** Item 2.a.1

If you do it that way, please keep a blank like between the sections for ease of reference.

If there's some other clear format you like, feel free to experiment.

Note: I don't know how @Velorien feels on the issue, so be sure to check with him before changing for his plans.
 
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Changes made. @faflec, any objections?
More a suggestion, which may well be controversial: We could say that, due to developments on the Human Path, the Goketsu have to sell the seals through the Toad Clan and their soon-to-be Summoner, who is also of the Goketsu. Keiko specifically can no longer sell the seals to the Pangolin. The Goketsu honor their obligations blah blah we will cover costs for the inconvenience blah blah. It should work to keep Keiko's position while retaining that sweet sweet blood money. But, uh, yeah Keiko will probably still be pissed.
 
There's a thing I think about a lot.

It is when Tsunsade said, about Hiashi, that the problem wasn't him getting the hat, it was him keeping it.

That strikes me as correct.

Like, if we win, put Inoue or whoever up. It will be basically an electoral college victory. We'll have votes from multiple one man clans, Ami's union members, etc.

That feels to me like it will prompt the same thing we just got from Keiko, someone being like 'you win the argument, now fuck you'.

That is, I think a losing Hiashi won't see his defeat as legitimate, and will launch a coup. And I know the hivemind's natural response to a challenge is to confidently declare that we'll just out-of'the-box think our way to victory, but my point is that even flawless victory, over our own village, would be a kind of defeat.

I want to have Hazou get with Shilamary, Tsunade, Naruyo, etc, and explore the idea of letting Hiashi take the hat and take point on the upcoming war. Is there a way he could believably commit to not purging is in exchange for a non contested election, etc?

I think whoever becomes Hokage this time, Naruto will be the next one, and I think it possible that Hiashi is the man that the hour is calling for.
 
It's entirely reasonable to be bewildered and confused and a bit angry that Keiko just decided to unilaterally do something that effects pretty much everyone you care about in a potentially extremely negative way

At absolutely no point did she come up to us and say "Hey Hazou, this thing is really bothering me still and I'm thinking about just ditching the deal entirely. Like, I really really want to do that and I just don't want to sell any weapons to the 7th Path anymore, its too much for me."

What we got was aggression and the Team Dynamics equivalent of a "Checkmate."

Instead of talking to anyone about this, about how she feels about this, about what she wants to do about this, she spent her time reading up on Leaf legalese and preparing for "Keiko stands up at dinner and decides that The Matter Is Closed." She even brought Tenten there for moral support.

Quite frankly, I'm totally fine with ditching the Pangolin Deal. So what? We can pull off some bullshit to get money. We can probably do some 4d chess bullshit to get more scrolls anyway. I'm proud that she's brave enough to bring this up.

Thats not the problem here.

The problem is, in typical Keiko fashion, she priveleged "The Team will not care about my opinions or what I have to say so I must make sure this gets done regardless." or whatever over actually communicating literally any of this like a teammate.

I thought we already hashed this out with the Hazou-Keiko-Ami arc, in all honesty:



Stop being a pile of idiots that NEVER TELLS THE OTHERS ANYTHING and work together like an actual goddamn team. This isn't hard to do. It takes literal minutes! Pretty much all of those conversations happened on the order of 5 to 10 minutes. Is it so difficult to talk to your blood-brother about such concerns? Why? Why is it so goddamn difficult to communicate? Why is it so hard to work on improving these skills when all parties involve acknowledge that they frequently misunderstand each other and there are significant instances in which this causes massive problems?

It's just so petty to me.
Right, so, first. I forgot to respond to this first, sorry for that.

Second, this isn't the issue I have. Hazou has every right to be angry at Keiko for the way she ended the agreement. I agree with this. My issue is that Hazou responded to Keiko's actions by ignoring his promise to respect Keiko's agency (which she establishes by heavily implying that she's not open to discussion) and not even bothering to confirm that he's reading her correctly (as in, asking to make sure that she won't budge on this). Instead he attempts to convince her to not break the deal, and then lets Mari try.
 
  • But you've failed Mari more. She manipulated Keiko on your orders — because you've misjudged Mari's mental state, didn't take into account how her depression would bias her. Your mistake likely exacerbated it.
  • Talk with Mari. Admit your mistake, reaffirm your full responsibility over it.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan".
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.


Are there non-obvious intent behind Mari's actions? It surprises me how poorly her manipulation was; and because this is a story, Mari's steely eyed focus strikes me as narrative foreshadowing.

"Mari guilt trip Keiko, fails." To me underestimates Mari too much. She very deliberately takes into account Tenten's presence and probably likely action.

Is she trying to cut ties with Keiko? Pushes her away from the clan? Reinforces the decision and sabotage any attempts by Hazou to keep the contract?
 
Second, this isn't the issue I have. Hazou has every right to be angry at Keiko for the way she ended the agreement. I agree with this. My issue is that Hazou responded to Keiko's actions by ignoring his promise to respect Keiko's agency (which she establishes by heavily implying that she's not open to discussion) and not even bothering to confirm that he's reading her correctly (as in, asking to make sure that she won't budge on this). Instead he attempts to convince her to not break the deal, and then lets Mari try.
My point is that the response is reasonable given the suddenness and the out-of-left-field nature, as well as with the open aggression in which it was delivered.

While I too wish that the kid was able to Iron Nerve himself into perfect composure,kill his monkey-brain emotional response, pause the conversation with a sip of coffee (or in this case spiced hot chocolate) while intuiting motives, self-inserting as Keiko to see her viewpoint on the situation, and simulating conversation paths (up to and including predicting what Mari was going to do in the moment if given free reign) in a manner of seconds before gently raising a hand and getting to the bottom of this with open dialogue... the fact of the matter is is that he's not able to do that yet.
 
2) Bullets on Xenforo are in fact a nightmare. If y'all want to try doing plans without them, that's fine. Either do short paragraphs or do a "bullet list" in Markdown style:
Nah, I love the ghost bullets. They keep life interesting.
More a suggestion, which may well be controversial: We could say that, due to developments on the Human Path, the Goketsu have to sell the seals through the Toad Clan and their soon-to-be Summoner, who is also of the Goketsu. Keiko specifically can no longer sell the seals to the Pangolin. The Goketsu honor their obligations blah blah we will cover costs for the inconvenience blah blah. It should work to keep Keiko's position while retaining that sweet sweet blood money. But, uh, yeah Keiko will probably still be pissed.
Let's table this for now? We're not making final decisions here yet, I think.
 
My point is that the response is reasonable given the suddenness and the out-of-left-field nature, as well as with the open aggression in which it was delivered.

While I too wish that the kid was able to Iron Nerve himself into perfect composure,kill his monkey-brain emotional response, pause the conversation with a sip of coffee (or in this case spiced hot chocolate) while intuiting motives, self-inserting as Keiko to see her viewpoint on the situation, and simulating conversation paths (up to and including predicting what Mari was going to do in the moment if given free reign) in a manner of seconds before gently raising a hand and getting to the bottom of this with open dialogue... the fact of the matter is is that he's not able to do that yet.
By the way -- what would be the best way to move his characterization in that direction? More self-meditation stuff in line with what @huhYeahGoodPoint is doing? @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail do you have any input?
 
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