Yeah, I kind-of feel directly responsible for this one. I know it was the culmination of the entire thread's work, but... If I didn't write that plan about ranting at Zabuza, he would've successfully destroyed the Leaf/Mist alliance, leading to WW4 in hours. It would have surely distracted the EN for long enough for the Akatsuki to complete their ritual, and win. And I screwed it all up at the last moment.
"That's an effective solution, but it requires me to continue to do arbitrarily declared icky, so no and I'm done talking about alternatives to my unilateral refusal of icky."
"That's an effective solution, but it requires me to continue to do arbitrarily declared icky, so no and I'm done talking about alternatives to my unilateral refusal of icky."
Full utilitarianism is not a the only paradigm in the world, and judging everyone by that paradigm is going to end badly, for everyone.
It's just an ethical imperative, "I refuse to help with genocide, because it's wrong".
We can try to explain her why, but her reason are far from childish, and are more "Uplift" than ours.
See? This is my problem, since this is a quest, everyone and their mother assumed this whole Keiko thing was a sidequest, it looked like one, now that It stopped looking like its completable, I wanna cut our losses and forget about it.
With all due respect....
If people assumed that, because it's a quest there is clearly a way to bring Ami in Leaf, or that everything can be done, thing will go badly.
This is more.... a world that we interact thanks to Hazou, that behaves in a coherent way, and if it does not thanks to something, then the the offending gets shifted away, violently.
You can't really "cut your losses", because Keiko is family, for example, even if we do, there will be mental ripercussion on Hazou.
Cut our losses is not a "Let's ignore this sidequest" but "Oh shit, drama and pain, like it would happen in the real world".
I'll admit that our GMs creates wonderful narrative from this, so clearly the system is working as intented.
We should probably inform the rest of Leaf about Ami and what she does.
Or better, blackmail Ami so that we keep our mouth shut.
Jiraiya didn't know about Ami and her capabilities, Mari probably didn't know that Ami became a Jonin and managed to create her powerful network (she was likely aware of it's existance, but not the actual extend), because she went missing nin:
The best Jiraiya was going to get was this Ami girl, the older sister Keiko never mentioned, and she could be trouble on a whole other level. Jiraiya still hadn't worked out why she was there or what her game was, and it was only a matter of time before she used that innocent façade of hers to stick some diplomatic dagger in his back.
She paused, frowning in thought. "Hm...Ami is only a little older than you, isn't she? Probably about chūnin age, actually. I wonder if you'll end up competing against her." She smiled sadly and shook her head. "That would be a bad fight. The latest intelligence reports say that she's both furious and disappointed in you for the way you betrayed your family. You really should drop out, Keiko. Wait until next year or the year after; Ami will have been promoted by then so you won't have to worry about seeing the look in her eyes as she comes at you across the field. Or face the humiliation of losing to someone who can do everything you can but better."
"Keiko, Neira is playing on your fears, and she is lying through her teeth," Mari-sensei said. "Leaf has no dossier on Ami, Neira is just guessing what's going to hurt you the most. I know Ami. I know Ami, and all of your cousins, and your parents. I studied them before we left Mist, because I wanted to know what sort of genin we were being assigned. Ami does not hate you. In fact, I will bet you twenty thousand ryo, which is all the money I happen to possess at the moment, that she has been loudly defending you ever since we left. I'm certain that she misses you and that she will be delighted to see you again. She'll call you 'runt' and make a joke about how it took you long enough to get back. If she's told in advance that you're coming then she'll probably have a bunch of candied sesame seeds in her pocket when you meet."
Mari probably didn't tell Leaf any relevant intel because she wanted to avoid her being assassinated. Mari did say that she want's to avoid the death of her friends and our close family, so she would probably not tell other people what she knows to avoid Ami becoming a target. Espacially if she is one of Ruy's and Biwakos actual granddaughters.
We really shouldn't let her walk aroung Leaf without far more scrutiny, Keiko basically worshipps her, Shikamaru is basically getting blackmailed and threatened by her and that Shimura guy is already eating out of her hand. (And Keiko is not going to inform us about any of this, because nobody informs us about anything).
So, suggetions:
Inform Mari what happened in Mist (including that Jiraiya was fully willing to marry Hazou off and his analysis of the situation)
Coordinate with Mari to blackmail her? Contain her? Keep an eye on what she is doing?
Have Neji with Skywalkers track her? We have all those crazy sensor guys around, we should make use of that.
I think the closest thing to a psychiatrist that's been explicitly shown was the woman (I want to say Ino's relative?) who helped us locate and work on our exploitable issues prior to the exams. I don't know if that kind of practice would help more than it hurt, though.
Failing that, 12th-century military dictator-land does have ninjutsu. It's conceivable that e.g. the Yamanaka might have mind skills that could help someone with their issues, if the patient trusted the Yamanaka not to mess around and the Yamanaka trusted the patient to not reveal the technique's existence or details. I doubt we're in enough with them that we'd know one way or the other.
I think the closest thing to a psychiatrist that's been explicitly shown was the woman (I want to say Ino's relative?) who helped us locate and work on our exploitable issues prior to the exams. I don't know if that kind of practice would help more than it hurt, though.
Failing that, 12th-century military dictator-land does have ninjutsu. It's conceivable that e.g. the Yamanaka might have mind skills that could help someone with their issues, if the patient trusted the Yamanaka not to mess around and the Yamanaka trusted the patient to not reveal the technique's existence or details. I doubt we're in enough with them that we'd know one way or the other.
I mean stopping her from doing whatever she is planning to do, if that wasn't clear.
Ami has Kage level social an has great ambition, why would we let her roam wild and do what she wants? We can support her if this somehow helps us, but just ignoring her is going to be a big mistake with Shikaku,Inoichi and Jiraiya being dead, Hiashi and Tsunade mostly being in the hospital.
The last time Mari met with another Mist kunoichi worked out well for all parties involved. So sure, why not?
(Ami is likely on our side here anyway. Well, as much as an agent of chaos can be. There are benefits to helping us stay safe and accumulate power because we are important to Keiko, and because she wants us to owe us favors. And the more powerful we get, the more we can do for her.)
Eh, Ami will kill her once she is of no use to her anymore. We just have to keep Mari being useful and there will be no assassination attempts by AMI (Leaf edition).
I just want to thank y'all for spending your time and effort writing this quest for us. In particular, to Velorien, this update was amazingly well written.
I try to avoid knowing about my country's politics. it makes me feel helpless and depressed, and these days the whole thing's a low-key dumpster fire anyway.
It's the "for some reason they keep coming back for more" kind of malevolence, not the "I want your gameplay experience to suck" kind of malevolence. In trope terms, it's Magnificent Bastard versus Smug Snake.
I don't understand this "Hazou knew that Mari was going to try to social-fu Keiko into the ground (and poorly) instead of say, believing she would put forth a compelling argument to change her mind." thing folks are going on about.
I think that Hazou expected Mari to try argue on a normal level.
But I also think he should have anticipated what actually happened.
Moving forward, Hazou should instruct Mari not to use her social-fu against any clan members until further notice, and also ask for details about what exactly Mari is doing to Leaf, seeing that Hazou is ultimately responsible.
Moving forward, Hazou should instruct Mari not to use her social-fu against any clan members until further notice, and also ask for details about what exactly Mari is doing to Leaf, seeing that Hazou is ultimately responsible.
This is tricky for us as players to anticipate because we are operating under the assumption that there is no social combat between teammates so there is no point to explicitly warn Mari not to do that. It's a given.
This is also one of the biggest reasons that I think Keiko misinterpreted the situation and there was no actual social combat taking place.
Remember, she is an unreliable narrator not just in the way all limited PoV retellings are: she is also lying to herself a lot because she doesn't like herself very much. She is also a pessimistic person in general.
If she always thinks the worst of herself and how others would react to her, then of course she would interpret everything Mari said under that lense. Anything that validates her perception of people hating her will get amplified and signs to the contrary will be ignored.
And just as a general statement to what I read over the last few pages:
1) I am vehemently opposed to apologizing to Keiko or Mari. Not because I think we are above reproach but because we have not established what exactly happened. People are quick to assume that Hazou deliberately used Mari to attack Keiko and therefore we have something to apologize for. But as long as we actually find out the truth there is no point in apologizing. I don't want Hazou's apologies to become worthless nor do I want him to become some sort Mari-lite martyr.
2) Some of the posts arguing to ignore/punish Keiko were painful to read (like "let's kill Kagome for trying to murder Minami" levels of painful). I like all of the characters in Team Uplift - including their flaws. And I really don't want to play Sociopath Simulator 2019 where we discard family members because "they are too much work" or "offer little RoI" (not quoting anyone in particular, just the impression I got).
I think Hazou needs to tell his family about the Zabuza flashback.
If this were a novel, I would expect the first flashback to be foreshadowing for Hazou having a breakdown in the middle of something important.
Since it's a quest instead, let's try to avoid that.
She is sorta resolving her issues of assertiveness, but it seems to come in jumps of "I'm going to make a unilateral decision without telling anyone and then leaving" instead of either staying after her declaration to create a new plan or at the very least mentioning her uncomfortableness with a plan before hand instead of just letting it build up until it explodes.
Having thought about it, it's pretty clear to me that there was a breakdown in communication with Keiko as to the purpose of the United Summon Nations plan. It was very explicitly not intended to demilitarize them, nor especially to reduce our dependence on selling them arms.
Had Keiko expressed that the lattermost was what she was concerned about prior to storming off, Hazou could have put forth a number of ideas (Salt empire, ice with Akane, serving as the go-between for low-logistics trade) to reduce our dependence on foreign oil gold. We didn't realize that that, specifically, was her problem, any more than Hazou did.
We should literally just sit down with her, lay out the plan as it currently stands, discuss the specific parts she has problems with and talk about alternatives to those problems. We should then gently admonish her that her opinions matter and we'll take them into account, and that she is indeed entitled to make decisions regarding the Pangolins etc. but to please tell us that she's going to do so beforehand so that we can prepare.
On a slightly meta note, we've seen before that the thread's stated views are used to inform Hazou's outlook on various things, even outside of explicit votes. I'm noting that a lot of people who do actually care about Keiko are speaking purely in terms of solving the problem - which makes sense, because it's potentially solvable. I worry that Hazou's views are going to lean further towards making use of Keiko as a tool than the thread actually wants, but can't see a way to solve this issue without a bunch of people writing otherwise pointless posts about how much they like Keiko, which isn't ideal. Can we think of a way to deal with this meta problem, that the thread tends strongly towards focusing on problems we can solve, and that has potential negative effects on Hazou's character?
[X] Plan Talk To Keiko and Ino
Talk with Keiko:
We need to discuss the Seventh Path, and your views on it.
What are your exact objections to our previous stance? We've been under the impression that your displeasure was from the carnage caused from our trade, and not specifically her involvement in the affair.
Go through our plan with Keiko's exact stance in mind. Can we salvage anything?
What about using noncombat seals?
Do you have similar objections to dealing with the Toads?
You have the final word in all decisions regarding the Pangolins, but we'd appreciate the chance to discuss whether there are better options.
How should we present this to them to minimize damage to your relations? Maybe we could blame the decision on Leaf?
Leaf's going to have some issues with local chakra beast suppression. We know Summons have strict population controls...maybe we could let them hunt Chakra beasts en masse across Fire to harvest their Chakra?
Possible other money-making ideas we should look into:
Salt Empire
Ice transport
Future Plan stuff:
Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
"Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
Go meet Ino.
Ask Mari to help arrange a flower bouquet.
Intended meaning: "We do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
Ask to see Ino.
If she's not available, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
Who are the Yamanaka - or really, ISC - supporting for the Hat?
Is there anything else we can do to help?
Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
Thank her for her time.
I've stolen the second half of this plan from @huhYeahGoodPoint 's plan, which I hope they're okay with.
I've dropped the apology, because I'm not really sure that Hazou acted out of line, to be honest. Keiko dropped a bombshell - of course his first reaction was surprise and denial. If nothing else, the timing was terrible. I'd rather sit down with her and discuss said bombshell, exactly what her views are (since we apparently failed to understand them the first time around), and what our new approach is going to be.
I don't think that requires an apology - Mari signaled she wanted to say something and Hazou deferred to her. It wasn't obvious that Mari was about to launch into a full-scale social assault on Keiko, and Hazou's infamous lack of situational social awareness works in our favour this time - both IC and OOC, it's entirely believable he was expecting a discussion, maybe an attempt to convince Keiko, but not that.
On the other hand, we might want to ask Keiko not to hold Mari's attempt against her, since Mari's in a particularly bad place right now and her judgement is probably impaired, especially with regard to her loved ones.
I don't think that requires an apology - Mari signaled she wanted to say something and Hazou deferred to her. It wasn't obvious that Mari was about to launch into a full-scale social assault on Keiko, and Hazou's infamous lack of situational social awareness works in our favour this time - both IC and OOC, it's entirely believable he was expecting a discussion, maybe an attempt to convince Keiko, but not that.
On the other hand, we might want to ask Keiko not to hold Mari's attempt against her, since Mari's in a particularly bad place right now and her judgement is probably impaired, especially with regard to her loved ones.
Yeah, but there's a marked difference between persuading Keiko to change her mind on logical merits - admittedly presented in a compelling fashion - and a guilt trip playing on Keiko's difficulties with social interaction. The former is entirely reasonable, and indeed probably the correct response to someone you care about doing something you'd rather they didn't; the latter is worth apologizing for. I do not believe Hazou was expecting Mari to use the latter.
Hazō opened his mouth again, but Mari-sensei raised her hand. She glanced at him for confirmation, and he nodded.
She gave Tenten a quick appraising look, then looked up at Kei.
"Keiko," she said. "I'm very proud of you. I know it can't have been an easy decision. I can't pretend I'm not a little anxious, but we're the ones who chose to trust you with our finances. If you've decided that we can stay afloat without the pangolin income, all I can do is have faith in you.
"In a way, I envy your courage. I've cut and run plenty of times in my life because I was too scared to face my problems head-on. You know that better than anyone, since it's how we all ended up in the Swamp of Death to begin with. I told myself that I couldn't make a difference because Yagura was too strong, and then Shikigami gave me an excuse to pretend I was being moral when I was just running away. I surrendered my agency out of fear. You're surrendering yours as an informed decision, and that makes all the difference.
"I know it must have been tough to make a decision based on your own independent judgement, especially when what you choose could end up determining the futures of two worlds. It must have taken you months of thinking, with no one you could trust to help you decide, or to help you shoulder such a huge responsibility. Nobody should have to go through that when they have a family that's supposed to support them."
Mari-sensei's eyes shimmered with unshed tears.
"Keiko, I'm so sorry for being such a poor mother to you that I never realised the depth of your feelings. I'm sorry that I wasn't there for you when you needed me because I was too busy worrying about the survival of the clan, forgetting that the clan is made up of its people. I should have taken the time to talk to you and find out how you really felt, and then maybe we could have figured this out together, step by step. I hope you can forgive me."
She bowed her head in apology. "I know it's too late to make amends for how much I've hurt you. All I can do is offer to help you work out where to go from here, and to believe in the responsible adult you've become. You've trusted us with your future often enough… maybe it's time we trusted you with ours.
"Do it just one more time, Keiko. Look me in the eye, and tell me that this is what you want to do."
Kei felt dizzy. The room blurred around her. This was too much. She felt sick. Who did she think she was? To come here and throw an ultimatum in the face of the people who loved her? To play the martyr when they would be the ones paying the price? To allow herself to believe, even for a second, that a broken thing like her had the right to decide other people's destinies? She did not deserve Mari-sensei's kindness. She barely deserved to live—
Into Kei's violently cleared mind flooded one of Mari-sensei's own teachings. Unexpected. On some level frightening by its very presence. Yet somehow…
For someone like you, Keiko, there is only one defence against a hostile social expert. Do not engage. Do not speak to them. Do not make eye contact. If possible, do not look at them at all, because body language is a weapon. Do not listen. If you can't escape, speak pleasantries until you can get out of the conversation. Never be alone with them. Above all, do not listen. As a last resort, assume that everything they say, without exception, is a lie. It will cost you, but not as much as going toe-to-toe with someone you know is better at lying than you are at catching lies.
Mari-sensei was not a hostile social expert. She was one of the very few people Kei trusted unreservedly in this world. But if Kei had gone from conviction to nausea in seconds, if it had taken a serious boundary violation to render her able to think…
This wasn't an argument based on logical merits, this was an extended guilt trip, playing on a weakness of Keiko's she's intimately familiar with. For all that Keiko is prone to massive dramatic overreactions, her decision to treat Mari as a hostile social expert was not unwarranted here.
I understand that dealing with the consequences of Hazou's misstep is important, insofar as this misstep is actual, but we mustn't forget that we are, in fact, in a precarious position that just became even more precarious. Thankfully, we now have access to a very clever person who owes us a favour.
Includes some of @huhYeahGoodPoint 's and @Jello_Raptor's ideas for damage-control with Keiko and Mari. But they've been made... milder.
[x] Action Plan: Impure World Domination Wordcount: 385
Last-night aftermath:
Talk to Keiko. Reaffirm you're still family.
CCnJ: You won't ask her to change her decision, but you both could've handled that better. Hazou should've paid more attention to her mental state, and shouldn't have tried to override her after she made her decision clear. Keiko shouldn't have presented us with an ultimatum; she should've trusted us enough to bring it up in advance, to work with us on it.
Suggest salvaging Keiko's relations with the Pangolins by claiming Hazou ordered to end the deal.
Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
"Clan" includes her: her well-being matters. She shouldn't take actions which would damage her self-image even further, shouldn't cross new lines.
Consider acquiring intel on the Hagoromo's internal politics, perhaps by covertly fishing for information in bars. Considering your disguise skills...
... or lack thereof. How do you wear a wig again? Or appear older/feminine? Practice with mirror.
Do you have IN movements for putting on disguises? Reflect on the first time you used them. Something is... off. It's been off for weeks, since you lost disguise kits.
What about spotting disguise? Logically, if you suspect an infiltrator, you should check their height, weight... but instead you're inclined to hit them? And Noburi too...
Meet with Kagome and Mari (high-security room, Silent Mines + Anti-Hyuuga Seals).
Describe your disguise-related concerns.
Mari, an infiltration specialist: Did you notice anything wrong? Has Hazou gone mad?
Kagome: any idea what happened?
Discuss the topic in-depth. Figure out whether you or the world is crazy. Pin down how exactly.
Classify it accordingly (need-to-know?).
Update Mari on our history with Ami.
If investigation into disguises succeeds: suggest exchanging Ami that information for a favour. (She may be already investigating this: avoid information leaks.)
Suggested requests:
Politics:
Open-ended: "Work with me to maximize my personal influence on Leaf politics."
Specific: Assist the Gouketsu against the Hyuuga bloc.
Social:
Open-ended: "Maximize my social competence over the next half-a-year".
Specific: Arrange for IN social training.
Use specific or open-ended requests? Other specific requests?
After the discussion, ask Keiko to invite Ami to the compound ASAP: you want to spend your favour.
Send Ino a mourning bouquet (with Mari's assistance).
Meet with Ami. Secure room at the compound (Anti-Hyuuga seals, Silence Mines). Yuuichi waits outside.
Accept her previous terms: no social games, clear exchange of information and commitments.
If investigation into disguises bore fruits:
You possess novel information of major importance to infiltration specialists. Likely unique information.
You're willing to reveal it for a favour.
Don't answer any questions about it unless she accepts.
Spend favour(s):
(Discuss with Mari first: open-ended or specific? If you have only 1 favour, spend it on power or social?)
Politics:
Open-ended: "Work with me to maximize my personal influence on Leaf politics."
Specific: Assist the Gouketsu against the Hyuuga bloc.
Social:
Open-ended: "Maximize my social competence over the next half-a-year".
Specific: Arrange for IN social training.
Reasoning:
1. Ami is a ridiculously powerful political agent. She managed to almost effortlessly get herself into Leaf with minimal oversight, even as the thread found itself unable to as much as message her, and a few days after arriving, she already arranged for the creation of a clan. She may or may not be more competent politically than Mari was at her prime; she is definitely more on-point than anyone in our clan currently, and she has a lot of experience working with pseudo-chaotic systems, such as Leaf's current internal politics.
2. Unfortunately, she isn't our ally; she is an active issue. She is going to mess up Leaf's internal politics, and we do not have any assurance that she won't throw us off a cliff in the process. Keiko is part of the Nara clan now; her fortunes are not tied to the Gouketsu as much as they used to. Ami'll surely cushion our fall, because she cares about Keiko's feelings and Keiko will be sad if we go splat, but there's no guarantee that we won't end up as the most minor of minor clans, glad just to be alive... or, perhaps, deeply in debt to Ami, and acting on her orders with minimal personal agency. (And no, Velorien's promise that "the resultant chaos will be interpreted favourably to us" was conditional on us successfully getting her into Leaf. We had no hand in helping her; all bets are off on what happens now.)
3. Fortunately, we have her favour. We can take it, and channel her absurd proficiency into creating beneficial-to-us chaos. I'm willing to change the exact wording, but an open-ended request to "maximize our personal influence over Leaf politics" would be my choice. It covers everything: taking Hiashi down, helping Mari with her campaign or convincing her it'd be better for Asuma to win, ensuring we're not ran out of town or killed by the enraged clans, and most importantly, ensuring that Ami doesn't turn us into her puppets.
4. In the last update, we saw that Ami is looking into the hole the henge fell into — she was planning to ask Mari about her disguise skills "going rusty". We could beat her to the punch — nudge Hazou towards noticing the anomaly as well, have him talk to Mari and Kagome (resident eldritch horror specialist), try to ensure that Kagome tells us about the henge. If that succeeds, we'll be able to sell this information to her in exchange for another favour.
5. This favour could be spent on whatever the thread desires — fixing Mari, or Iron Nerve Socials, or just "making Hazou socially competent".
6. If we plan to do any of this, we must do it now. Next update will be too late: Ami will have already approached Mari and figured out everything about the henge, and she'll have already started several unknown politics-influencing plots, making it much harder to course-correct her into helping the Gouketsu.
