Isn't that what arguments and discussions do? I genuinely fail to see how this is being interpreted as an attack.
Yeah, but there's a marked difference between persuading Keiko to change her mind on logical merits - admittedly presented in a compelling fashion - and a guilt trip playing on Keiko's difficulties with social interaction. The former is entirely reasonable, and indeed probably the correct response to someone you care about doing something you'd rather they didn't; the latter is worth apologizing for. I do not believe Hazou was expecting Mari to use the latter.
Yeah, but there's a marked difference between persuading Keiko to change her mind on logical merits - admittedly presented in a compelling fashion - and a guilt trip playing on Keiko's difficulties with social interaction. The former is entirely reasonable, and indeed probably the correct response to someone you care about doing something you'd rather they didn't; the latter is worth apologizing for. I do not believe Hazou was expecting Mari to use the latter.
My issue is that Keiko had made what appears to me to be her final decision on the matter: she would no longer tolerate selling weapons to the Pangolins. She clearly put thought into the consequences of her actions, both towards her personal power and towards the Goketsu's. FMPOV Hazou, by continuing his attempt to change her mind (read: to convince her to keep selling weapons) even after knowing of this, is demonstrating once again his issues with agency: he should not have responded by continuing to persuade her past the point where she had made her final, well-thought-out, decision.

Like...if I were Hazou here, after the first reaction, I would have asked if she were at all willing to consider options that would have allowed her to maintain her position among the Summons while still allowing her to not sell weapons to the Pangolins and/or stopped the genocide they're perpetuating. IFF she said she was, then I'd start discussing other possible options while still acknowledging that Keiko's basically the boss here and that her decision is still the final one.

And no matter what the above results in, I'd thank her for being brave to tell us, and ask only that, in future, she be willing to tell us her concerns and plans to make X decision before a unilateral decision has been made.

Edit: To be clear, I'm taking offense to Hazou attempting to change her mind when he should have attempted to ask Keiko if she was willing to have her mind changed if a better option presented herself. The former conflicts with Hazou's vow to respect the agency of others, FMPOV.
 
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Hanzo ordering Mari to change Keiko's mind was the only thing in the update that didn't make sense to me. The Shika-spaining was hilarious.
 
nudge Hazou towards noticing the anomaly as well
I am very much against this. The great henge retcon is for me a pure gaming abstraction, and a necessary evil, and I gate when it's even referenced in game as something that happened. It's akin to a dnd character noticing that taking items out of his pocket doesn't take time, or the wizard realising he has an infinite amount of powdered bat guano and strips of fat in his spell component pouch. Nothing good (from the gameplay perspective, narrative might be interesting) will come out of that.
 
The great henge retcon is for me a pure gaming abstraction, and a necessary evil, and I gate when it's even referenced in game as something that happened
QMs disagree:
Henge is not coming back. We have no intention of creating anything similar. Everyone should feel free to stop asking about it, because it's not happening. Ever. Even in the wildly improbable event that you somehow convince @Velorien and @OliWhail that it should be brought back, they are not going to convince me, since I was the one who originally convinced them that it would be okay to remove it. (All three of us wanted to, I was just the one who first crossed the line into "Yes, it's okay to do this thing.")

For those who are bothered by it, I suggest that you are bothered not because it happened but because you follow the discussion thread and are therefore aware of the behind-the-scenes causes. Had it simply been a thing that you saw in the Story-Only Thread, I bet the reaction would have been "Whoa! What's all this about shifts in reality?! Why is Kagome the only one who knows about it? Huh, interesting. I wonder what's behind it?"

Now, what does this mean in-universe:

Henge existed and was used for centuries. It was a normal part of ninja life. There were thousands of reports and stories and etc.

Then, about six weeks ago (1068 AS, roughly November 15), reality changed. Maybe there was a seal failure somewhere, maybe it's something to do with chakra, maybe it's the Tailed Beasts attempting to break free of their prisons. Who knows? Regardless, the henge jutsu ceased to function. Furthermore, all memories and records of it ceased to exist. Sections of reports will be blank, or smudged, or in some other way have lost information. Memories are fuzzy and it doesn't seem terribly surprising so what's the point in poking at it? Some people will have a sense of confusion or alarm when they notice themselves doing things by reflex that they can't quite remember the point of, but there's a lot going on at any given moment so a minor moment of forgetfulness is not super important. Other people, ones for whom henge was a major part of their career, will be freaking out. There are not nearly as many of those people as a naïve reading might suggest.

So, how did that Mist proctor disguise herself during the third event? She used henge. How do the kids think she did it, now that they cannot remember the existence of henge? The question doesn't really come to mind. When it comes near the edges of thought, as it did with Keiko, she wondered about it in passing for a moment and then vaguely decided that it must have been a wig and makeup, and probably a lousy job too.

If this damages your calm, that's a pity. You have two choices: Get bent out of shape and nurse a grievance forevermore, or assume that it's a thing that actually happened in-universe and that there will be ramifications to that. That perhaps characters will discover this enormous hole in reality and just maybe there will be some kind of reaction and maybe one or two plot threads might spin out of it.

Keep in mind that it's only been six weeks in-universe and all the main characters have had one or two things going on in that time. Yes, the deletion of henge is a major event that will have an impact on the plot going forward. Honestly, I'm glad that the grue was suggested and that the other QMs went for it, because (a) it makes our lives hella easier and (b) it makes a great lead-in to certain bits of the worldbuilding that we otherwise would probably have had to leave completely offscreen for the foreseeable future.
It's going to become part of the story one way or another. Let's be proactive for once and introduce it on our terms, and rake in some profit while we're at it.
 
Right, so...

@huhYeahGoodPoint @Noumero I'd like for any apologies to Keiko to run the same way we did with Kagome: yeah, we screwed up, but she could have done things better as well. To be specific, she should have trusted us (well, maybe not Hazou) to have come to us, not with what appeared to be a unilateral decision, but with the willingness to at least consider other options, which she did not seem to be willing to do.

And also there's this stupidly paranoid part of me which is screaming that she would have sabotaged Noburi's Summoning training if she had to train him, and that was why she tried to foist it off on Sarutobi.
 
I want to offer a short plan update that is compatible with every other plan proposed so far and will just make them better through extra error checking. Let me know what you think.

Problem set and solution:
Hanzo has a problem with empathy (low empathy skill) and 'the leaf point of view' aka how the leaf perceives him and will view his ideas/actions. This can lead to consequences in the socio political arena. Learning to be more empathic is not feasible short term, he is furthermore controlled by a psychopathic hive mind, which makes empathy hard. Deception and presence plays more to his strengths. The solution would be to have an additional voice in his council to weight in on empathic issues and reduce foot in mouth occurrences. A person with a high trust score and the required skill set exists. Hence, Hire Akane as worlds best secretary and have her perform plan fault analysis for empathic and public relation issues, similar to Keiko, just with a different focus. Also, worlds best ___ internal monologue will be back!



[X] Make Akane worlds best social secretary
  • Ask Akane if she wants the job, Make good arguments for her to build her confidence: I trust your opinion, You know I need the help, I appreciate your input allways...
    • if yes: give her the job
      • Have a 1h Taijutsu session with her every morning where you talk through social interactions for the day (pan faut checking)
        • Listen to her advice (obvious, duh)
      • Teach her the Pangolin telepathy jutsu to hopefully prevent some foot in mouth situations
      • Have her manage Hanzos social calendar and sheduling, she will be great at it.
    • if no,
      • try more arguments, listen to demands, make concessions then hopefully go to if yes:
      • ask her to find a better candidate and fill in until she found a replacement
 
Thanks for having me.

Chaos leads to instability, instability means that a smaller force (influence/group of people) can have a bigger effect and might change the outcome more easily. With the stable solution being Hiashi elected Hokage, chaos is a good thing. Something like a really nice political scandal would be godsend, like Ami posting his blackmail material in the newspaper or something.

Hey, I Iike you. Welcome aboard.

let's kill Kagome for trying to murder Minami" levels of painful

To be fair, I proposed that when the the leading vote was literally suicide after he actually killed Minami, leaving us with a choice between burning everything and running (and leaving Mari and possibly Akane to die), letting him go (and getting us all tortured and interrogated and then executed for treason when we got back), trying to capture him and take him back to be tortured and interrogated and then executed for treason (with high probabilities of collateral damage), or maybe killing him quickly and painlessly and trying to salvage the best of a horrible situation.

I get that you find it painful and don't want to play Sociopath Simulator. I hope that you also get that my feathers are ruffled for yet again catching flak after all this time after attempting to be a voice of reason at perhaps the thread's peak insanity and one of the most dire situations we've found ourselves in.

On a slightly meta note, we've seen before that the thread's stated views are used to inform Hazou's outlook on various things, even outside of explicit votes. I'm noting that a lot of people who do actually care about Keiko are speaking purely in terms of solving the problem - which makes sense, because it's potentially solvable. I worry that Hazou's views are going to lean further towards making use of Keiko as a tool than the thread actually wants, but can't see a way to solve this issue without a bunch of people writing otherwise pointless posts about how much they like Keiko, which isn't ideal. Can we think of a way to deal with this meta problem, that the thread tends strongly towards focusing on problems we can solve, and that has potential negative effects on Hazou's character?

I vote for embracing it wholeheartedly and instead working towards getting the people around us to understand that Hazou has the best intentions but is just as flawed as the rest of them (sans Nobbro ofc).

Solving problems is what we do, and we're going to step on toes. But what usually happens is repeated cycles of toecrunching, people going off on Hazou or having emotional breakdowns, and then us dropping everything to grovel and apologize and make amends before getting back to plotting on how to fix everything once things are reasonably stable again.

Not the healthiest of dynamics imo.

If anyone feels hurt or used or disregarded or left out it's most likely because we didn't know or didn't think about the issue and thus didn't factor it in. It's certainly not because we don't care, and it's only sometimes that we actually have to sociopathically disregard feeling and emotion and wellbeing and treat people as tools/obstacles in order to get a better outcome.

That can only be remedied with clear and honest discussion ahead of time. (Well, the feelings thing at least. Sometimes you gotta sociopath.)

Oh. Also, I like Keiko and want her to be happy.

[X] Plan Talk To Keiko and Ino

@Deathbybunnies Can you also add a non-apologetic, non-grovelling, non-accusatory discussion with Mari?
 
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I feel very concerned about using these seals in any situation where a foreign shinobi could possibly get hold of these. Yes, we can mitigate the chances of this happening. No, I don't think it's worth it.

Also, people are gonna talk about how the Goketsu clan head and a foreign shinobi are having a conversation so private they even deployed measures against fellow Leaf-nin. Cue paranoia about them being traitors.
First: "Maximize my personal influence on Leaf politics."
Should add a note that we want to have veto power on the broad details, since this is so open to interpretation and fuckery. Or we could just be more specific as to how, maybe state the broad goal (maximize personal influence on Leaf politics), learn what she'd be willing and able to do, and then decide from there?
 
(Correct me if I'm very wrong on this, but wasn't there a reason that Summons can't make Seals themselves somewhere? This line of thought is dependant on humans having a monopoly or decisive advantage on Seal-production.)

I really do think people, maybe even the writers (no offense guys, I admire the level of work you put into this but you only have so much attention to ration), don't give the Summon races enough agency. People (including GMs?) seem to me to be treating the Pagolin's atrocities as some sort of abstract linearly increasing moral debt. Hazou owes more Uplift for more people and cultures they conquer and destroy, but it really only exists as a big red bar of Bad Mojo that's slowly increasing. They're just a black box that turns Bad Karma into Cash. As long as Hazou gets more Good Karma from the money than he bought it with he's a Good Person. It feels like with all the details of tense geopolitics being described so well in the story and the issue being so present for so long in the story it's time for modelled actors in the Summon Realm to proactively respond to the new dynamic. They've had time to process the Pagolin's new capabilities, investigate, draw conclusions and put out feelers. Something could be coming soon.

They all have Summoners, they all know Seals come from the Human Path, and they probably know or assume the Pagolin's have a Summoner now. Now Keiko's been internationally revealed as the Pagolin Summoner at the Chunin exams any of the races having their Summoners keep an ear to the ground will know who to target to cut the head off the (metaphorical) snake.

Any high-ranking member of a village with survivors from the Battle of the Gods will know about Skywalkers. A Summoner is very likely to be a high-ranking member and could share that information with their Summons, who can put two and two together and start trying to secure a source of weapons to counter the Pagolins.

The incentives are also all there for, effectively, an Atlantic Ocean Slave Trade of Seals for Blood-Money. Any Summon race that doesn't get a large supply of human seals will be at a massive military disadvantage. To pay for seals they need resources. Those resources are secured by conquering and exploiting your neighbours... for which you need Seals, more than they have. Which means you need more resources than they have. Which means...

The new resources coming in from the Seals arms-trade adds a new level of competition and tension between the human villages. Maybe comparable to the cash influx from New World cash-crop colonies or Spain's American gold. If you have Sealmasters and lots of Summon Contracts then you have a giant influx of wealth. If you have one or the other you're a target, if you have none then you're a minor power overnight if you don't conquer someone who has them. Proxy wars will start to play a role too. If the Pagolins conquer Cloud's Jaguar Summons then Cloud just loses one of it's key income streams. Time to go to war with Konoha, or cut a deal with Hiashi "Peacenik" Hyuuga for the Scroll and Summoner's head.
 
@huhYeahGoodPoint @Noumero I'd like for any apologies to Keiko to run the same way we did with Kagome: yeah, we screwed up, but she could have done things better as well. To be specific, she should have trusted us (well, maybe not Hazou) to have come to us, not with what appeared to be a unilateral decision, but with the willingness to at least consider other options, which she did not seem to be willing to do.
Done. How does this look?
  • You screwed up. The Pangolin situation distressed Keiko extremely, until she clearly couldn't bear it, and she put thought into ensuring that her decision won't hurt the clan. You shouldn't have immediately ordered Mari to stop her. Apologize for that at the first opportunity; reaffirm that you're still family.
    • But Keiko made a mistake as well. She shouldn't have made an unilateral decision, she should've trusted us enough to discuss it in advance, at least consider other options.
I feel very concerned about using these seals in any situation where a foreign shinobi could possibly get hold of these. Yes, we can mitigate the chances of this happening. No, I don't think it's worth it.

Also, people are gonna talk about how the Goketsu clan head and a foreign shinobi are having a conversation so private they even deployed measures against fellow Leaf-nin. Cue paranoia about them being traitors.
Didn't Kagome put them all over our residence anyway? We'll only need an excuse to let her in.

As to her stealing the seals — are they even visible? I assumed that they were long-lived, that Kagome just put them under plants/furniture and is periodically replacing them.
Should add a note that we want to have veto power on the broad details, since this is so open to interpretation and fuckery. Or we could just be more specific as to how, maybe state the broad goal (maximize personal influence on Leaf politics), learn what she'd be willing and able to do, and then decide from there?
"Maximize personal influence on Leaf politics in ways we wouldn't object to"?
 
Done. How does this look?
Beautiful.
Didn't Kagome put them all over our residence anyway? We'll only need an excuse to let her in.

As to her stealing the seals — are they even visible? I assumed that they were long-lived, that Kagome just put them under plants/furniture and is periodically replacing them.
He did? If the mansions already coated, then I can tolerate her going. Might want to have Mari keep an eye on her, though, just in case.
"Maximize personal influence on Leaf politics in ways we wouldn't object to"?
How about "Work with us to maximize our personal influence on Leaf politics."?

[x] Action Plan: Impure World Domination
 
@Noumero I like your plan except for the first bullet point.

Damage-control:
  • You screwed up. The Pangolin situation distressed Keiko extremely, until she clearly couldn't bear it, and she put thought into ensuring that her decision won't hurt the clan. You shouldn't have immediately ordered Mari to stop her. Apologize for that at the first opportunity; reaffirm that you're still family.
    • But Keiko made a mistake as well. She shouldn't have made an unilateral decision, she should've trusted us enough to discuss it in advance, at least consider other options.
  • But you've failed Mari more. She manipulated Keiko on your orders — because you've misjudged Mari's mental state, didn't take into account how her depression would bias her. Your mistake likely exacerbated it.
  • Talk with Mari. Admit your mistake, reaffirm your full responsibility over it.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan".
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.

If you would be willing to completely throw that out in favor of having CCnJ discussions with Keiko and Mari wherein we actually talk about the issues and try to understand each other instead of flying between grovelling and admonishment in the name of "damage control," I'd be happy to vote for it.
 
If you would be willing to completely throw that out in favor of having CCnJ discussions with Keiko and Mari wherein we actually talk about the issues and try to understand each other instead of flying between grovelling and admonishment in the name of "damage control," I'd be happy to vote for it.
This please.

Team Disunity is painful. Get everyone back on the same page and communicating about things instead of just shouting emotionally at each other and floundering around like headless chickens.
 
Uhm...personally, for the Mari situation, i'm the opinion that Mari needs to....choose.
As long as she remains a tool, nothing will change, so we need to ask her what she wants to do:
  • Remain a tool for the Clan.
    - We will survive in the short-term, until watching our parental figure(she is, she took the role) crushing herself for us will break us.
    -She won't be any closer to make amend for what she did
    -Sooner or later she will snap
  • She can return to crippling self-loathing, doing nothing while her world crumble around her, and regret like she did when Jiraiya died.
    - we could not survive
    - we could become puppets in someone else hands
    - we would suffer.
    -It just postpones the decision, and resolve nothing.
  • She can accept that she is a person that did horrible things, and she she can try to make a new path for herself with the skills she used to destroy so many people or grow new skills for a new person.
    This path can be protecting us, being a person she would be proud of, or both.
    -it's not important if it's possible or not to make amend, it's that, if she truly believes what she did is so horrible, trying to make amend is her only choice, even if it end in failure.
    -It will keep the clan safe.
    -It will make the family happy, to see her walk a road that doesn't bring to self-destruction.
    -It's the only road that has a chance of her and us not looking back with regret on these days.
  • She can commit suicide
    -It will not atone for anything, if her sins are really that big, her dying wouldn't give peace to anyone.
    -It will devastate the family....the family could also die from it.
    -Mari would die.
    -You can't change,nor atone, for anything if your dead
    -You probably cannot take it.
  • For better or worse, you trust her, because the Mari you know was the best person she could be and now she can decide what kind of person she want to be.
  • It's a second chance, hers.
I'm currently under exams, so i don't have time to make a plan, but these would, generally speaking, the emotional places i would touch.
The self-loathing will remain, but hopefully tempered by a vision of the future.

Now, on specific plans...

Damage-control:
  • You've screwed up. The Pangolin situation distressed Keiko extremely, until she clearly couldn't bear it, and she put thought into ensuring that her decision won't hurt the clan. You shouldn't have immediately ordered Mari to stop her. Apologize for that at the first opportunity; reaffirm that you're still family.
  • But you've failed Mari more. She manipulated Keiko on your orders — because you've misjudged Mari's mental state, didn't take into account how her depression would bias her. Your mistake likely exacerbated it.
  • Talk with Mari. Admit your mistake, reaffirm your full responsibility over it.
    • Amend your initial order: "protect the members of the clan".
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.

Keiko was ready to have legal battle with us, she started with an ultimatum.
Saying sorry it's fine, but this something we need to talk with Keiko.
-She needs to talk about her needs, before she snaps, because we're humans too.
-We're a family, did she really think we would have just...stole the contract if she explained to us the situation? said "I can't do this anymore"? Does she trust us so little?
 
Like...if I were Hazou here, after the first reaction, I would have asked if she were at all willing to consider options that would have allowed her to maintain her position among the Summons while still allowing her to not sell weapons to the Pangolins and/or stopped the genocide they're perpetuating. IFF she said she was, then I'd start discussing other possible options while still acknowledging that Keiko's basically the boss here and that her decision is still the final one.

I can agree that the way he started the argument was not ideal but we can't say for certain whether or not he would have just been stubborn about it or relented eventually. The previous chapter where he makes decisions for the clan indicates the latter.


This wasn't an argument based on logical merits, this was an extended guilt trip, playing on a weakness of Keiko's she's intimately familiar with. For all that Keiko is prone to massive dramatic overreactions, her decision to treat Mari as a hostile social expert was not unwarranted here.

Fair but remember that Hazou did not know in advance that this was going to be a guilt trip when he allowed Mari to speak so we cannot fault him for that.

For not stopping it? Probably. I am saying 'probably' here because I don't know whether Hazou even caught on about what Mari was doing until later in. Or if he did at all.
If we accept the fact that Mari did start social combat with her teammates then we can also assume that she has no qualms phrasing it in a way that also fools people like Hazou or Noburi until they have time to reflect upon it later (i.e. an AoE effect basically).

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail

Can you tell us whether Hazou realized what Mari was doing at some point and whether he was OK with it? Or did he reprimand her after Keiko had left?

I get that you find it painful and don't want to play Sociopath Simulator. I hope that you also get that my feathers are ruffled for yet again catching flak after all this time after attempting to be a voice of reason at perhaps the thread's peak insanity and one of the most dire situations we've found ourselves in.

No ruffling of feathers intended. I honestly didn't even remember who had suggested the idea and only vaguely remember that suicide was an other option being thrown about.
 
Amy's favors remain endlessly suspicious to me. Like, she wins every way on them.

Honest insight into what ninjas want is hard to get, unless rubes just walk up and tell you in order to earn your imaginary tokens.

It lets her do stuff and if people get mad she can just say it is to repay an asked favor from X, and try to redirect their ire.

If she's asked for something she doesn't want she just misinterprets the request and does something awful, and the beggar kicks himself for wording it wrong.

We shouldn't put any faith, at all, in the idea that this one random social spec, unlike all other ninja, is bound by anything other than coercion.
 
I can agree that the way he started the argument was not ideal but we can't say for certain whether or not he would have just been stubborn about it or relented eventually. The previous chapter where he makes decisions for the clan indicates the latter.
I'm not talking about the start of the argument, I've been interpreting it as his gut reaction and that's OK. Not ideal, but OK.

I'm talking about the fact that Hazou intended on continuing the argument past the point where it was reasonable to do so. Whether he did it himself or had Mari do it, or if he would have been stubborn or relented later, is irrelevant: he should not have tried to persuade Keiko to change his course, and should have either accepted her decision or, at the very least, gotten confirmation that Keiko was willing to consider alternate solutions before discussing them.
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on May 24, 2019 at 9:27 AM, finished with 324 posts and 24 votes.
 
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