I don't think it really passes the smell test that these lore caches remained undisturbed for ~950 years and we only just missed them to the previous generation.
One of the assumptions here is "something about the village era made a find-the-lore -caches strategy more viable.
I can generate some possibilities, but none of them are so compelling as to being obviously true.

would they suffocate even with a large force dome volume?
Dunno. Over 2 months, I'd assume so. But I didn't run the maths.
"Shouting through the air holes" is a moot point because writing exists for communication, they probably don't have enough food stores for most to survive anyways, etc.

But if you ran the numbers, I'd be interested. I'd probably start by looking for a US Navy or NASA source on how long people can survive rebreathing a volume of air.
 
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But if you ran the numbers, I'd be interested.
in case someone else is interested and is avoiding doing it in case it's repeat work, I'll mention I'm not gonna run the numbers.

also I don't know if you saw my edit?
and if we leave a few Usamatsu's Glorious Life-Saving Preserver around?

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suggestions for how to fix them
The QMs have requested player brainstorming power for things that benefit Hazou before. Like jutsu mechanics.
An idea for NPC agency. What if the QMs requested brainstorming power for things for NPCs? Ex: battle plans/jutsu for the Akatsuki? There are issues that this would give players OOC knowledge they shouldn't have. But the QMs don't have to say which ideas they have accepted. Also you could have requests where it doesn't matter if the players know about it (can't think of any off the top of my head).
 
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also I don't know if you saw my edit?
Dunno the specs and haven't done the maths.

And again it doesn't matter, because they can still report out(writing and holding up notes to talk through the invisible dome), and will still mostly die for other reasons(they probably don't have 300-600 person-months of food in storage, they may not have adequate/sustainable water purification, etc)
 
I don't think it really passes the smell test that these lore caches remained undisturbed for ~950 years and we only just missed them to the previous generation.

One of the assumptions here is "something about the village era made a find-the-lore -caches strategy more viable.
I can generate some possibilities, but none of them are so compelling as to being obviously true.
Oh, I think I've got it. During the warring clans era, clans both made and raided lore caches.
In the village era, clan store their lore differently(mostly in something like a clan vault in the Hidden village), so for the first time in a millennium, wild lore caches aren't being repopulated.
This left a ~50 year window between the village-based status quo subsuming the remaining clans, and 90+% of discoverable lore caches being depleted.
 
Another plausible point of intervention is decreasing the importance of the "hardcore-but-fair game" part of the experience. The common sentiment among long-term players is that we don't care that much about "player agency" or "earning our victories". We care about reading a rational, simulationist, internally consistent, well-written story. But that story doesn't have to pull double duty as a hardcore game.

If I'm honest -- we won the 'hardcore game' a long time ago. We won several times over, really; when we joined leaf, when we won the chuunin exams, when we killed akatsuki (the first time), when we rediscovered Runecraft and Minatosealing...
 
I don't think it really passes the smell test that these lore caches remained undisturbed for ~950 years and we only just missed them to the previous generation.
What lore caches? The setting does not look like anyone knows what the fuck they're doing. Sure, we don't know how Pain got the Rinnegan, but Pain doesn't know how we got runes. People seem somewhat convinced that Angry Crow Guy knows this 'lore' thing but despite running away with basically the whole accumulated knowledge of the Uchiha and having Pain on chat support he has not impressed on me that he could tell you which direction gravity goes. And for sure the people who are best palls with seventy-odd S rank supervillains have probably accumulated more than raiding Shiny Location #1 and calling foul when it was only moderately useful.
 
3 points.

1. I strongly agree with the high-res/low-res dichotomy. QMs have all but stated this explicitly in the past. This quest is ***incredibly*** ambitious. Tbh there's really nothing like it on the Internet. No disrespect to other QMs, many are great. This quest has had... 4? 5? The fundamental "issue" here stems from the scale of ambition. None of the QMs are able to work on this full time iirc.

2. The secondary conversation about whether this advantages or disadvantages Hazō relative to other characters seems very silly to me.

The majority of existing S-Ranks are a) geniuses with 2x of our base XP rate, b) have bullshit bloodlines and the clan secret training needed to full advantage of them, c) are jinchuriki. Hazō had none of these advantages.

At the start of the quest he was clever teenager with a potent yet not broken bloodline, nothing more. Heck, we've ***never*** been able to get access to the clan secrets needed to fully leverage the Iron Nerve, which isn't even as broken as the Sharingan (or any number of other bloodlines).

Under "low-res" simulation, absent player intervention, Hazō would probably be dead. At best a special Jonin missing-nin. He would never have joined Leaf. Never had a Clan he could belong to, much less one he would grow to lead. He would never garnered Orochimaru's respect before even reaching 18.

His one and only advantage has been the player base, and not just any player base but ***this*** player base. He essentially has an undocumented Thinker Bloodline that's at least as strong as anything else in the setting. Without the players he'd have died in the Swamp.

Player intervention is an inherent part of the "high-res" simulation. Once this has been factored into the equation, then Hazō has undoubtedly benefited far more from being in high-res than low-res.

Edit: if anything it's our allies that suffer. Ami vs Mari is actually a good example. Part of that could be handwoven away as Ami just being very good at self promotion, such that she is credited for events far more than she actually contributed to them. That feels a little like a rationalization though.

3. The parameters and simulationist goals of this quest were set far in advance. Before any of players, QMs, or lurkers grew so very invested in these characters. So, in this light, I'll say that ***if*** we stick with hard simulationism we should get mulligans. A limited number of chances to rewind time a chapter or two. Maybe just going to the Beta timeline.

I love the ambition of the simulationism. Yet after this many millions of words into this story, I'd rather sacrifice a bit of simulationism than sacrifice these characters. That's just my perspective as a reader though.
 
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Oh, I think I've got it. During the warring clans era, clans both made and raided lore caches.
In the village era, clan store their lore differently(mostly in something like a clan vault in the Hidden village), so for the first time in a millennium, wild lore caches aren't being repopulated.
This left a ~50 year window between the village-based status quo subsuming the remaining clans, and 90+% of discoverable lore caches being depleted.
Honestly this is kind of -- irrelevant to the grander discussion? Not that it's not important in its own right but like, it's a symptom of a greater problem which is probably better discussed directly.
 
It's really interesting to see Oro's strategy for handling Hazou. I wonder how long it's been since the last time he rolled a rapport check.
Between this and going out of his way to mention that he'll show us bioseals if we go to our next biosealing checkup, it's clear his control strategy for Hazou is to have a positive relationship where Hazou happily submits to his knife on the regular. He'll still install various conditioning routines and kill/control switches, obviously, but he hopes to mostly steer Hazou without needing them.
This bodes well for us, especially if we promptly purge our bioseals out and never got under his knife again, but otherwise keep up positive collaboration. Unless he gets pushy?

....Man, I hope the thread doesn't hear him respecting our abilities, and get besotted with him like an abused kid latching onto their first-ever source of validation.
(Who am I kidding, we're doomed. Players gonna be like: "But he respects us to much to plan contingencies against us!")
For a while there he kinda got pidgeonholed as the one remaining NPC who wasn't contractually forbidden from giving us useful advice about things to do, rather than things to avoid doing. Not to imply that all his advice was useful... but separating wheat from chaff, or medicine from poison, is different from clawing at sand.
I'd probably start by looking for a US Navy or NASA source on how long people can survive rebreathing a volume of air.
Deep hole in the ground, put a not-quite-superchiller at the bottom, dialed back to only cover the zone immediately around the hole, and to stay slightly too warm for LOX. Anywhere near sea level, excess CO2 kills people long before lack of oxygen, so make use of the same mysterious smoking snow which provided a key IC clue toward EM nukes. A hundred man-months of CO2 in the form of dry ice would probably only fill up twenty cubic meters or so, comparable to an equivalent supply of food - it's the same number of carbon atoms, after all, and similar density. If you really want to do the math properly, though, this would be the place to start: Life Support - Atomic Rockets
 
My thoughts on the simulationism/fun debate are below. I'm a relatively new player and haven't really had time to be worn down by the problems described, so that will influence my opinions - but I thought I should post them regardless.

So: we're fine with some degree of QM-guided steering, as long as it's towards problems that would be fun to solve and to plot points the QMs would enjoy writing. We're fine with narrative causality, as long as the resultant story-state is still internally consistent. We're fine with the QMs fudging the dice rolls, as long as it's for more narratively exciting outcomes (whether it's fudged in our favour or against it). Et cetera.
I agree that simulation lag, as described here, is a problem. I don't think I agree with the high-res/low-res thing - I've never been convinced that the NPCs actually get unrealistic benefits from this, on the whole, and the examples given don't particularly change my mind. The Akatsuki did not actually get the anti-Summoning seal array precisely because it was deemed unrealistic; Ami's schemes have never seemed particularly unrealistic to me, if you compare them to the kind of things we pull off as viewed from the outside; perhaps it's just that I joined relatively recently, but I've never had the impression that sealing was overly limited, and given what we've seen from the likes of Oro I'm inclined to think that that problem relates more to simulation lag (discouraging us from exploring the depths of the discipline because that would force the QMs to do work rigorously defining it) and the nature of our connection to Hazō than to low-res/high-res.

However, I can't agree with the section quoted above. Internal consistency is not just "this could have happened"; it's also "this had a reasonably high probability of happening". Narrative causality is intrinsically incompatible with internal consistency, because over time it becomes obvious under statistical analysis that the laws of probability don't actually hold in the setting. The confidence that as far as possible that is not happening is a huge part of what drew me to MfD in the first place; I am unlikely to continue to engage with the quest if it's removed. To say nothing of fudging the rolls - thankfully, I think the QMs have already said they won't do that at least for the 'hard' mechanically-demanded rolls, but what's the point in having mechanics at all if you break them whenever you don't like the outcome?

In turn, we would like the QMs to loosen up the rules on their end as well. Outcome-pump the hidden free variables of the simulation to accommodate our schemes sometimes, when those schemes seem exciting to all of us. Let Team Uplift display more agency, if and when it would be fun and in-character for them to do so – even if it would clash with the players' agency or lead to them solving our problems for us. Provide us with OOC information when it makes our life easier and doesn't open the door for egregious meta-gaming. (Paper bluntly telling us that the ACE date didn't matter for our ability to summon Cannai is a good example here. We would have preferred if we were told that at the very beginning, instead of engaging in the exhausting back-and-forth about the dates.) Et cetera.
On the other hand, I do think most of this paragraph is a good idea. I disagree strongly with outcome-pumping the simulation for similar reasons to those described above, but I would be absolutely fine with Team Uplift displaying more agency, if that is indeed a recognized problem (which I personally wouldn't have guessed just from reading the story); it makes the world more realistic, not less. Providing us with OOC information as long as it's not egregious also seems a reasonable compromise to make for the sake of efficiency, insofar as it allows the world to be better simulated elsewhere (and/or reduces the work needed to keep the quest running) by freeing up QM effort.

Given the number of players who did sign the letter, I don't expect this to have much impact - but I'd like to avoid the appearance of unanimous consensus.
 
But stuff like that... I mean, there's a certain degree to which that is in itself unfair to us, because we aren't 20 years in the future in game; we don't have that backlog of filled-in backstory-based XP and jutsu.
This sentiment seems like it's going against the basic concept of the quest. You're playing as a character who started at genin level and didn't have a backlog by design. (I also wouldn't argue that Hazō is deprived of XP compared to NPC ninja, considering that he is a beneficiary of a variety of unique XP bonuses that no non-Uplift ninja in the setting gets, way beyond what low-res simulation would assign according to his talent level.)
 
This sentiment seems like it's going against the basic concept of the quest. You're playing as a character who started at genin level and didn't have a backlog by design. (I also wouldn't argue that Hazō is deprived of XP compared to NPC ninja, considering that he is a beneficiary of a variety of unique XP bonuses that no non-Uplift ninja in the setting gets, way beyond what low-res simulation would assign according to his talent level.)
What I was trying to get at there was that like... if you ran all of our opposition at high resolution for their whole backstory, most of them would be dead, or very different from how they are when you run their backstory at low resolution, in a way that disadvantages us.
 
What I was trying to get at there was that like... if you ran all of our opposition at high resolution for their whole backstory, most of them would be dead, or very different from how they are when you run their backstory at low resolution, in a way that disadvantages us.
Conversely, if we ran you at low-res, then you would be long dead. You wouldn't even have made it out of the Swamp, considering that Mari's intervention was a consequence of high-res focus on you (and Keiko as your teammate). The same is true if we'd abstracted your survival to a few dice rolls, as genin missing-nin with Zabuza on your tail. To say nothing of being singled out for recruitment by Jiraiya or running across a recruitable sealmaster in a random forest.
 
What I was trying to get at there was that like... if you ran all of our opposition at high resolution for their whole backstory, most of them would be dead, or very different from how they are when you run their backstory at low resolution, in a way that disadvantages us.
Well, that's a little unfair. Most of our counterfactual opposition is dead. But you don't fight the dead ones, or often even know their names; you fight the ones who aren't.
 
I think more meta information for better planning would be a good idea, even if this makes things somewhat less realistic. I don't really like how much of planning seems to be sanity checking - That should be done in the background, and we have things happening on screen. Especially for social-type events.
 
Internal consistency is not just "this could have happened"; it's also "this had a reasonably high probability of happening". Narrative causality is intrinsically incompatible with internal consistency, because over time it becomes obvious under statistical analysis that the laws of probability don't actually hold in the setting
Think about it as a selection effect on the viewpoints we follow, not as a probability-warping effect on the world.

Story protagonists are not randomly sampled from the set of all possible observers in the multiverse, the selection is skewed towards interesting viewpoints. Imagine following the person with the most compelling life in the world, then: that would be perfectly simulationist, since such a person necessarily exists, but their life would probably feature a lot of low-base-rate events. It only becomes a problem if the events become so improbable that it becomes implausible for such a person to exist at all: if, after you condition on "I'm following the life of one of the most interesting/influential people in the world", what you observe is still surprisingly improbable. We don't have to go that far.

As long as the events happening to Hazou are not skewed towards being fun-to-read too much, SoD would handle it: an implicit assumption that you're reading about a person whose story is worth reading about.

Edit: The viewpoint from which it is "unsimulationist" is if we view MfD as a hardcore game/sandbox, instead of as a rational story. Then, yes, we're not operating from the premise that Hazou's story ought to be interesting. But the argument is precisely that we should move the slider further away from "MfD-as-a-game" and closer to "MfD-as-a-narrative".
 
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Well, that's a little unfair. Most of our counterfactual opposition is dead. But you don't fight the dead ones, or often even know their names; you fight the ones who aren't.
Maybe! I don't claim my thoughts are entirely logically cogent, I am primarily providing a feed of how these things make me feel, and then running that through a filter of "okay but how to convey that to others".
Conversely, if we ran you at low-res, then you would be long dead. You wouldn't even have made it out of the Swamp, considering that Mari's intervention was a consequence of high-res focus on you (and Keiko as your teammate). The same is true if we'd abstracted your survival to a few dice rolls, as genin missing-nin with Zabuza on your tail. To say nothing of being singled out for recruitment by Jiraiya or running across a recruitable sealmaster in a random forest.
Sure, I'll grant that, but this is getting into the weeds a bit, isn't it? There's a reason I said "a certain degree" there. I do not claim that that is a knockdown argument of any kind, just that there's -- stuff in that vague area worth thought and conversation.

The thesis of my post was "It benefits us sometimes for others to be low res but I present the world-changing things we've done at high res and could do more of if people around us weren't". Like, as a related example1, when we asked Jiraiya to provide us seals or jutsu to think about on our way around doing spy stuff, he did not. Would we have come up with some skywalker-tier innovations from such? Who knows! Probably not, though. But we might have come up with something. See also, tower seals, the times we've made trade deals with other clans for their stuff, etc.

And again, I am fully aware of how spoonful producing these kinds of content is. I do not deny that it is a lot of effort, and I appreciate all that you and our other QMs have done. However... the case remains that not getting access to these kinds of things sooner means that we lose out on the unknown compounding advantage that we might have otherwise. And the same is true of other friendly clans and even enemy clans (with the Iron Nerve being what it is).

1I do not actually think this is a proper example for a number of reasons2. This is meant to gesture in the direction of what I'm talking about, not be a real example. A better example would be the tower seals. Why did I use this one? Mostly because I like reminiscing on things in this quest because I love it a lot.
2Jiraiya is smug, has plenty of reason to defend his own view of himself after having been shown up by a kid who can barely make a modified storage seal, and it would be politically inconvenient if it got out, to name a few.
 
Oh, I think I've got it. During the warring clans era, clans both made and raided lore caches.
In the village era, clan store their lore differently(mostly in something like a clan vault in the Hidden village), so for the first time in a millennium, wild lore caches aren't being repopulated.
This left a ~50 year window between the village-based status quo subsuming the remaining clans, and 90+% of discoverable lore caches being depleted.
Since we are very clearly just reasoning backwards from the conclusion now, why not draw a fun conclusion and reason backwards from that?

The lore survived 1040 years for Jiriaya and 1065 years for Itachi, it can survive 1075 years for us.

It is no more simulationist than what you suggest. That is, they're both total bs and they're both consistent with the observed state of the EN.
 
Imagine following the person with the most compelling life in the world, then: that would be perfectly simulationist, since such a person necessarily exists, but their life would probably feature a lot of low-base-rate events.
I think people get confused by statistics here. You run out of bits very quickly, when you only have log₂(MfD population) to work with, and IMO if you're being impartial about it you'd probably have used all of it up by the opening chapters. Most luck is by necessity actually just high agenticness in disguise.
 
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I think people get confused by statistics here. You run out of bits very quickly, when you only have log₂(MfD population) to work with, and IMO if you're being impartial about it you'd probably have used all of it up by the opening chapter. Most luck is by necessity actually just high agenticness in disguise.
True; there is also selection over possible MfD-world-histories going on. So it's more like "the story of one of the most interesting people in one of the more interesting possible timelines of MfD's setting".
Most luck is by necessity actually just high agenticness in disguise.
Selecting for a 99.9%-percentile agenty person costs bits as well, though!
 
I think people get confused by statistics here. You run out of bits very quickly, when you only have log₂(MfD population) to work with, and IMO if you're being impartial about it you'd probably have used all of it up by the opening chapter. Most luck is by necessity actually just high agenticness in disguise.

Assuming that MfD population is the right sample size, as opposed to past, future, or alternative populations (and combinations thereof)... Because if we do assume that, then our model can't predict outliers, which patently exist. And regardless of that assumption, modeling outliers is not a mathematical but epistemic problem. This is an issue because we are dealing almost entirely with outliers now.

To the agenticness point, maybe. I don't know how much deeper we can go than "there's a lot of selection bias here, and some by necessity".

Broadly, and separate from your point particularly, I think focusing deeply on "does this make statistical sense" beyond a very permissive sniff test is pointless. Given that we are regularly dealing with outliers, and our access to the probability space is sharply limited (compare Paper's excellent Jashin-Dice analysis for a counter example), it's all sniff tests anyway. It'd be more productive and likely entertaining to focus instead on internal narrative consistency.

All glory be to Jashin.
(The time is nigh people, get your prayers in order)
 
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Basic basic feedback.
  • Reexamine if earlier story policies still serve well today like weekly chapters. No one would begrudge you more time to write epic arc climaxes.
  • Clear lines to communicate dissatisfaction before it builds up on any side.
  • To this end. Semianonymous poll rating feelings about or aspects of the story?
  • You should be having fun too. Lower your workload and things that make writing a chore.
  • The story is great. To me Marked for Death is a story first, game second.
Hope this helps.
 
Since we are very clearly just reasoning backwards from the conclusion now, why not draw a fun conclusion and reason backwards from that?

The lore survived 1040 years for Jiriaya and 1065 years for Itachi, it can survive 1075 years for us.

It is no more simulationist than what you suggest. That is, they're both total bs and they're both consistent with the observed state of the EN.
This is a minor point, but most lore isn't going to be 1000 years old. With no better definition for lore floating around than "valuable information about the world that few or no people currently possess", hidden lore could date from pretty much any time. Minato leaving behind discoveries about the true nature of chakra gleaned via Minatosealing less than twenty years ago would surely count as lore for this purpose.
 
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