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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Just a reminder, we need to decide what jutsu to get for Hazou next. Listing a bunch you want is good, but we need to also prioritize in case we only get one for whatever reason.

That is, stating your opinion about what you want next and why would probably be good for the discussion. We probably want to do small plans with priority lists and some conditionals.

@eaglejarl @Velorien Suggested voting format for the jutsu vote:
[] Jutsu Hazou: A Very Serious Jutsu Proposal

The jutsu Hazou wants ranked in order of preference.
  1. An earth jutsu that makes him all powerful and costs only 5 CP/hour.
    • If it costs more than 10 CP/hour, move it to third rank
  2. Hiraishin
  3. Harem no Jutsu

OliWhail said:
I think my vote ends up being keep Clone low (3?), and level MEW, Tunnelling, Tremorsense, and one of the attack-focused jutsu (so either earth spike or a nintaijutsu)
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If we do it that way, the XP cost would turn out something like this:

MEW 10 - 34XP
Earth Clone 3 - 2.5XP
Utility 1 10 - 27.5XP
Utility 2 10 - 27.5XP
Utility 3 8 - 18XP

Total: 109.5 XP

(My old proposal cost 111XP)

So the fifth jutsu one gets only around 8 dice. We can decide which one that is after we see the actual numbers. (Note that this is an estimate, there might be stat requirements for us to fill.)

I'm not actually sure what is the difference between Earth Clone 1 and Earth Clone 3, so that might be superficial.

OliWhail said:
  • A subtractive earth-shaping jutsu which could be used to tunnel, preferrably quickly
  • A combat-oriented jutsu, EITHER in the form of rapid ranged earth manipulation (earth-spike like), ideally which operated similarly to MEW in that it would leave permanent constructs, OR one which enhances taijutsu performance / survivability
  • A sensory jutsu, especially one that does not depend on the conventional senses (i.e. we want to use tremorsense even when Noburi has put heavy mist over the whole area)
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If we can get a super good nintaijutsu that ups our combat survivability I would get that. I'm just not very confident that Leaf has the kind of stuff Kakuzu was using lying around. I would put it first with the conditional that the nintaijutsu is really good. I would list the requirements something like this:
  1. Makes us very damage resistant
  2. Lets us punch hazardous material (lava, acid, poison, tentacles from beyond the veil, etc.)
  3. Ups our effective Taijutsu dice with Roki
If the nintaijutsu fills all the requirements and doesn't require all our chakra, I would put it first. If it doesn't have the damage resistant part, I would move it to third rank. I'm not sure if I even want it if it only has achieves 2) or 3) alone.

Tunneling is second. The most useful to us would be a jutsu that lets us move really fast underground with a narrow tunnel, with the option to widen the the tunnel diameter in exchange for speed and more chakra. I doubt we can get that, so I would prioritize the ability to move fast even during combat and have non-combat utility as secondary benefit. This might land us with a jutsu that closes behind the ninja who is doing the tunneling, but I guess I would rather have that than just tunnel making outside of combat. I'm pretty sure we can get that with pangolins.

Sensory jutsu would be the third. Sensing opponents while in zero visibility would be awesome and we need something to guide our tunneling. This is potentially the 8 dice jutsu, but we'll see.

The problem is that we don't and won't have that much chakra, so that will also limit the jutsu pool we have access to.
 
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I still want to know if Nobby can drain others' elemental clones. It would be pretty brutal to near-instantly pop them given how much chakra they cost.

e: Also, I still really want at least one point of Techique Hacking, if only so we can learn the mechanics of it :p
 
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I strongly object to any Earth-nintaijutsu. You don't win ninja battles by hitting hard or by getting hit. You win by hitting first. (See Minato and Lee). Any Earth-nintaijutsu we get is probably going to slow us down in some sense, it also is not going to be much use in absorbing hits b/c if we get sneak attacked we might not be able to get it up in time. So unless we request one almost like Akane's then I don't really see much use in it. Those are my qualms about nintaijutsu.

The other two techniques that seem to be floating around are a "Tremorsense" technique and a "Tunneling" technique. I am going to go through the pros and cons of each one.

Tremorsense
  • Pros
    • Allows us to sense ninja in conditions we'd otherwise not be able to. This synergizes well with Noburi's eventual Mist + Vampire combo.
    • If it is low-cost enough it allows us to have another sense to detect attacks at all times. (I doubt it's cost would be low enough though)
    • If we decide to do Hidden Cave or Hidden Ocean it would allow is to detect underground rivers.
  • Cons
    • I don't see any real purpose of ever going into Noburi's Mist + Vampire combo. If anything, we'd be more effective lying in wait outside the trap as people attempt to exit.
Tunneling
  • Pros
    • If we go for a "high-speed' variety it would allow us to escape from combat quickly boosting our chances of survival
    • It would undoubtedly boost our stealth rolls while in use, something we desperately need
      • Thus it would increase the effectiveness of our ambushes
      • And of our infiltration attempts depending upon the situation
  • Cons
    • If we are escaping combat we might already be low on chakra, hampering one of its major benefits.
    • In ambush depending upon how the technique works we may run out of air and the only remedy would probably hamper its stealth effectiveness.
    • In ambush we'd have no method of communicating with our teammates, making adjusting to a new situation much more difficult.
Looking at all of this I think that the tunneling technique is probably the better of the two. The Tremorsense technique really provides nothing that we couldn't already accomplish better with more mundane methods. Thus, its probably worth taking the risk with the Tunneling technique and hoping that it does not have as many drawbacks as I envision that it could (or that the QM's don't take inspiration from my speculations).
 
Threnodist said:
I strongly object to any Earth-nintaijutsu. You don't win ninja battles by hitting hard or by getting hit. You win by hitting first. (See Minato and Lee). Any Earth-nintaijutsu we get is probably going to slow us down in some sense, it also is not going to be much use in absorbing hits b/c if we get sneak attacked we might not be able to get it up in time. So unless we request one almost like Akane's then I don't really see much use in it. Those are my qualms about nintaijutsu.

The other two techniques that seem to be floating around are a "Tremorsense" technique and a "Tunneling" technique. I am going to go through the pros and cons of each one.

Tremorsense
  • Pros
    • Allows us to sense ninja in conditions we'd otherwise not be able to. This synergizes well with Noburi's eventual Mist + Vampire combo.
    • If it is low-cost enough it allows us to have another sense to detect attacks at all times. (I doubt it's cost would be low enough though)
    • If we decide to do Hidden Cave or Hidden Ocean it would allow is to detect underground rivers.
  • Cons
    • I don't see any real purpose of ever going into Noburi's Mist + Vampire combo. If anything, we'd be more effective lying in wait outside the trap as people attempt to exit.
Tunneling
  • Pros
    • If we go for a "high-speed' variety it would allow us to escape from combat quickly boosting our chances of survival
    • It would undoubtedly boost our stealth rolls while in use, something we desperately need
      • Thus it would increase the effectiveness of our ambushes
      • And of our infiltration attempts depending upon the situation
  • Cons
    • If we are escaping combat we might already be low on chakra, hampering one of its major benefits.
    • In ambush depending upon how the technique works we may run out of air and the only remedy would probably hamper its stealth effectiveness.
    • In ambush we'd have no method of communicating with our teammates, making adjusting to a new situation much more difficult.
Looking at all of this I think that the tunneling technique is probably the better of the two. The Tremorsense technique really provides nothing that we couldn't already accomplish better with more mundane methods. Thus, its probably worth taking the risk with the Tunneling technique and hoping that it does not have as many drawbacks as I envision that it could (or that the QM's don't take inspiration from my speculations).
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Therefore I propose
[] Jutsu Hazou: Brave Sir Hazou's Running Away Technique
The jutsu Hazou requests from Jiraiya should optimally fill these requirements in order of importance
  1. A high-speed tunneling jutsu that allows Hazou to traverse underground
  2. The jutsu should enable Hazou to breathe underground
    1. If the above is not possible the jutsu should allow Hazou to create a pocket of air to breathe from while underground.
  3. The jutsu should enable Hazou to create a tunnel wide enough or enduring enough that multiple people can follow him, most likely at an increase CP cost.
  4. The jutsu should enable Hazou to have some idea of what is happening on the surface.
  5. The jutsu should leave no trace when Hazou goes underground.

EDIT: A better plan was created.
 
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Threnodist said:
You don't win ninja battles by hitting hard or by getting hit. You win by hitting first. (See Minato and Lee). Any Earth-nintaijutsu we get is probably going to slow us down in some sense, it also is not going to be much use in absorbing hits b/c if we get sneak attacked we might not be able to get it up in time.
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This is true, but it is not the whole truth.

If you think about survivability in combat there are roughly three dimensions to it:
  1. Not getting hit
  2. Surviving a hit
  3. Recovering from a hit
MEW (blocking), Tunneling (dodging), and Tremor Sense (detection) will help with the first one, but there are going to be situations where we are just going to get hit no matter what and we need a solution for that. Just like we need a solution for the third at some point. (Currently it is Nobby.)

If I had to guess, I would say that Earth is probably the best element for the second one, so that is where our comparative advantage lies.

But you are right, the nintaijutsu would have to be really good for us to consider it. Some sort of heavy rock armor thing that slows us down is not going to cut it, but if the jutsu lets us stay mobile and provides enough damage resistance to no-sell everything but high level armor piercing attacks, it would be worth it.

Threnodist said:
don't see any real purpose of ever going into Noburi's Mist + Vampire combo. If anything, we'd be more effective lying in wait outside the trap as people attempt to exit.
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Why would our enemies be in the mist if there's nothing in there for them to kill? For normal ninja combat where we don't get to set the battlefield to our liking, we are going to need someone to go in and tie the enemy down to the mist area so Nobby can drain them. Otherwise they will just get out of the mist. This is also true if we are standing outside the mist and attacking in with MEW or something.

Having a vision blocking jutsu as a main part of our teammates arsenal and not preparing a solution that lets us see through it sounds like a really bad idea.
 
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Threnodist said:
Therefore I propose
[X] Jutsu Hazou: Brave Sir Hazou's Running Away Technique
The jutsu Hazou requests from Jiraiya should optimally fill these requirements in order of importance
  1. A high-speed tunneling jutsu that allows Hazou to traverse underground
  2. The jutsu should enable Hazou to breathe underground
    1. If the above is not possible the jutsu should allow Hazou to create a pocket of air to breathe from while underground.
  3. The jutsu should enable Hazou to create a tunnel wide enough or enduring enough that multiple people can follow him, most likely at an increase CP cost.
  4. The jutsu should enable Hazou to have some idea of what is happening on the surface.
  5. The jutsu should leave no trace when Hazou goes underground.
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Should also not leave a trace of his passage through the earth if possible? Some sort of refilling of the tunnel afterwards, even if it's crappy?

Edit: Gotta be creative to be fair on a pros/cons. Ex: tremor sense could boost awareness/deception rolls (reading another aspect of body language)
 
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MadScientist said:
It's not even necessarily true at all. We already know that earth chakra can manipulate the weight of matter, and while I doubt we could get Lightweight Rock Technique, it's not implausible that most earth nintaijutsu might have some similar effect built into them so that the armour doesn't slow the user down.
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At the very least it is going to encumber us in some effect. We aren't very good at earth jutsu in general and that seems like a more advanced technique.

EDIT: If someone proposes a plan for a nintaijutsu I will add a caveat that if my plan wins but the nintaijutsu would not encumber Hazou's movement we should default to the nintaijutsu.
Twofold said:
Why would our enemies be in the mist if there's nothing in there for them to kill? For normal ninja combat where we don't get to set the battlefield to our liking, we are going to need someone to go in and tie the enemy down to the mist area so Nobby can drain them. Otherwise they will just get out of the mist. This is also true if we are standing outside the mist and attacking in with MEW or something.
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That is kind of the point, we would be lying in wait outside of the mist so that when people escape it we would attack them while they are still taking in their surrondings. The mist jutsu is only going to be good for ambushes anyway, and as fleeing cover because what ninja is ever going to go into a mist when they don't have to? Kakashi and Co. would have left the mist if they didn't have to protect Tazuna.
 
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Mist justu isn't very good if we can't see our enemy either unless we have an upper hand on awareness, like having cheating eyes.
 
Threnodist said:
At the very least it is going to encumber us in some effect.
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Not so.

Of the three earth nintaijutsu we see in canon, only one had any encumbering effect, and that one fell hard on the ninjutsu end of the spectrum, rather than the taijutsu end.

We aren't very good at earth jutsu in general and that seems like a more advanced technique.
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Both speculation and irrelevant.

Weight manipulation might be a very basic feature, that most earth jutsu make use of to at least some extent. That would certainly explain a few things (such as how earth clones can move at human speed despite being made of solid rock, for instance).

And even if it was an advanced technique, that still wouldn't make it impossible for us to learn. Summoning is the mother of all "advanced techniques", but the only hurdle we had to jump over was a one-time cost of 50 XP. An earth jutsu secondary power to make armour non-encumbering doesn't seem like anywhere near as hard to learn as bending the multiverse to your will.
 
Threnodist said:
That is kind of the point, we would be lying in wait outside of the mist so that when people escape it we would attack them while they are still taking in their surrondings. The mist jutsu is only going to be good for ambushes anyway, and as fleeing cover because what ninja is ever going to go into a mist when they don't have to? Kakashi and Co. would have left the mist if they didn't have to protect Tazuna.
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Actually, the biggest advantage of the mist jutsu would be that we wouldn't have to setup an ambush to get access to mist. We can already use misterators to create mist. Prep time, fast deployment, and backup (or primary I don't care) mist source is what I'm interested in the mist jutsu.

And waiting someone to come out of the mist is just one way to make use of it. Area denial is also an excellent way, and if all party members can operate efficiently inside the jutsu, it will make an excellent place to stay safe and regroup during a ninja fight.

Threnodist said:
We aren't very good at earth jutsu in general and that seems like a more advanced technique.
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There's actually no Earth Jutsu stat that we need to get good at. In the current system, "being good at Earth Jutsu" just means that you have one jutsu at high level, which just makes leveling all earth Jutsu cheaper to a point.

High level technique just means that the Attribute requirements for it are really high and not many people know it. (EDIT: I guess you could further split 'high level' to 'hard' and 'rare' if you want to be specific)

For example: Substitution is a low level technique; everyone knows it and the stat requirements are Control*5. Summoning is a high level technique, few people know it and its requirement are Control*2.

Other stats may also be used as requirements (Str for MEW, Sta for Syrup Trap, etc.)


As a general note, Hazou is not going to be able to get high dice jutsu due to cost, so he needs to aim for the ones with high attribute requirements. Preferably with stats that he is going to have at a high level. We should probably take this into account when we ask for jutsu.

In the current build, his highest Attributes are from highest lowest:
  • Int 20 - 238XP
  • Man 12 - 114XP
  • Pre 8 - 52XP
  • Com 8 - 52XP
  • Wits 7 - 26XP
  • Dex 7 - 26XP
  • Res 5 - 18XP
  • Str 5 - 10XP //If we need to start cutting corners, this would be the first to go
  • Sta 5 - 10XP
  • Con 4 - 14XP //forgot this, we might to need to raise it for jutsu
I wonder what would an Earth Jutsu with an Int requirement look like?
 
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