So, I changed my plan so that Tsunade sells earthshaping for us instead of lying to the kage-level ninja ourselves. Well demonstrate in the front of Orochimaru and the clan so all are deceived into thinking that Seal-Downloading was never a bloodline trait all along. Tsunade will run interference if he tries anything. Hopefully, the jutsu will be juicy enough to not pry further.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- how about no
It would be step one in a multistep process.
(underlines mine)
Asuma desperately wants Oro to face justice but realpolitik and the realities of war prevents Asuma from doing so. If we can change the numbers or prove that the numbers will change we can reach an accord with Asuma for his help.
- We prove to Asuma that the numbers can change in Leaf's 'not needing Oro for defense anymore' favor by showing the math behind FOOM and how to do it
- We use that proof to establish goodwill with Asuma so that he pulls some strings and influences Naruto and Tsunade to listen to our pleas if not outright tell them to protect us from Oro
- Asuma keeps Oro as pacified as possible with Rock and Cloud bodies and Asuma has a runner from the tower explain away our surgical faux pas as Hazou and Kei being immediately ordered by the tower for undisclosable missions
- Hazou and Kei stay away on those missions until FOOM allows Asuma and whoever else he deems worthy of FOOM (if we could not convince him to keep it only to himself) to be powerful enough to oppose Oro and win
From my understanding of FOOM I am under the impression that FOOM is a shadow of what MfD!Naruto is actually capable of (personal teaching from multiple Hokage, shadow clone from an early age for a head start of learning bonuses, has a demon in his gut, and he is already an S-rank while he and Hazou are the same age). While we may not be put physically into another killbox again the threat for defecting and committing treason will instead be death by angry clone army.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
So, the problem that I have with selling FOOM from last time still remains: right now we only have an unproven, untested flash of insight that could be wrong just as easily as it could be right. In fact all we have IC is the idea that if physical fortitude can grow without limits a la Gai then mental fortitude should be able to do the same, and since then we've been meditating a bunch instead of doing other training and it hasn't really gotten us anything yet - indeed, we haven't even caught up to where we would otherwise have been if we just kept normal training.
I could see Asuma still believing us, but it would be a provisional belief without a proper sense of scope. We might hype it up as the secret sauce to making the next Jiraiya, but we can't back those claims up so all we could impart is that we expect - if our assumptions are correct and nothing goes wrong - that this is extraordinarily valuable rather than merely valuable.
Valuable gets us a pat on the head and some goodies in return, it doesn't pull the kind of value we need either now to escape Orochimaru's clutches or in abstract to make the bargain worth the price.
I also think you're misunderstanding what Asuma means when he says that Orochimaru is more valuable than Hazou. He doesn't mean 'which of you has produced the greatest value in the past' or 'which of you can I expect the most value out of in the future', he means 'which of you can keep Leaf from being ground under the heel of Rock and Cloud'. FOOM doesn't solve that, it doesn't operate anywhere near fast enough to make a difference in WWIV. Even if he bought into the hype completely he still wouldn't be able to choose Hazou over Orochimaru because FOOM doesn't solve the problem where Leaf existentially needs Orochimaru. At best, the most wild idea I can think of to make this work, is if we ask Asuma to deliberately throw WWIV, give Rock and Cloud what they want, and hunker down with FOOM to train new S-Rankers over the next decade before striking back. It's a plan that might work. It's a plan I can scarcely imagine Asuma taking except as the absolute last resort. If reality is a little more kind than I expect we could maybe make that work, and get rid of Orochimaru that way.
(side-note, another potential end of the Oro crisis is if we get that top-secret long-term mission, but I don't think we'd need to sell FOOM to swing that. Probably. If we do then I'll reconsider since, as you say, staying alive is imperative)
Back in the abstract considerations, you're right that having more FOOMed Leaf fighters greatly enhances Leaf's ability to succeed and that as Leaf-nin we want Leaf to succeed. But in the set of all possible 'Leaf wins' outcomes there are outcomes where the Goketsu are in a position to achieve Uplift and outcomes where we aren't, and Uplift is our one true master above even The Village Hidden In The Leaves. If we have an action that meaningfully increases P('we achieve Uplift' | 'Leaf wins') without meaningfully reducing P('Leaf wins') then we can expect the aggregate odds of P('we achieve Uplift') to increase, which makes that action a good move. Put in practical terms, if we can get Leaf to win without sharing FOOM, and not sharing FOOM makes us proportionately more important and powerful in Leaf, then not sharing FOOM can be a good move for our ultimate goal. The particulars, of course, differ, and I wager your opinion is that we lose too much P('Leaf wins') for not enough P('we achieve Uplift' | 'Leaf wins') and so keeping it secret is a bad move, but if so then we're at least on the same page and just quibbling over whose model of reality is more accurate.
So to recap, as it pertains to our current situation, our sales pitch for FOOM is really really weak right now when we don't have tangible proof that it works as we expect, nor proof that it reaches the heights of value that we expect in due time. This means that I expect it to pull very little in the way of meaningful sway with Asuma (oh sure he'll look on us with favour and reward us handsomely, but nothing truly valuable like banishing Orochimaru or getting a 'get out of killbox free' card) and thus is of minimal value to our current crisis. The question of whether we should sell it just in general hangs as a separate question, and I think we will likely agree to disagree unless we go into a really really deep dive of our respective understandings of the mfd world and our thought processes and stuff, because that question ultimately comes down to which side of the 'how does this impact odds of Uplift' equation is stronger.
Personally I still oppose the idea and do not think it constitutes a meaningful solution to our crisis. Rather than having a digital wallet full of Bitcoins worth tons of money, what we have is more like a Bitcoin wallet before Bitcoin was worth anything, and the surgeon doesn't accept Bitcoin anyways so fretting about whether to part with our wallet is a bit of a moot point because it won't get us out of our situation in the first place.
- Location
- USA
New to playing in this particular quest, so please forgive me for any formatting errors and/or other mistakes in regards to established plan-making methodology.
To quickly recap some of my stance from Discord,
With this stance, I've developed what I consider to be a safer (meaning extremely cowardly) approach that I feel might be more likely to get us through the current conflict alive, as well as a variant that I'd consider to still be lower risk than speechifying to Orochimaru, but still potentially more entertaining and risky for the QMs.
So, plans.
[] Plan - Operation: Avoid Operations
[] Plan - Do You Hear the People Scream?
If anyone finds elements of my plans useful, please feel free to steal liberally from them for your own plans.
To quickly recap some of my stance from Discord,
- I am, at present, opposed to any plan that indicates to Orochimaru that Mari lied about our abilities. Orochimaru learning the truth a) increases his interest in us, which is a threat, and b) increases his level of annoyance at Mari, which is a risk to Mari. Yes, there's a possibility that he will eventually learn the truth either way, and I understand the instinct to just get this problem resolved permanently right now - but I don't necessarily think this is the right time for that confrontation.
- This, to me, means I'm currently opposed to both a plan that tells Orochimaru the truth, and any plan that involves vivisection, given that both of those lead to the result of Orochimaru learning this information (and thus making us appear more valuable to him than we currently do).
- My perspective is that we should attempt to deal with Keiko's issue through the approach that was suggested in the meeting (telling him the truth about cognitively independent shadow clones requiring a mental debuff). We should do this with maximum backup in case he responds badly (e.g. Naruto, Tsunade, and Ami, if available). If we make it clear to Naruto that this is Kei's life at stake, I believe he'd be likely to agree. Someone with a better relationship with Tsunade than Hazou may be able to persuade her. Ami would be easy to include, but may already be deployed?
- From there, my recommendation would be that we attempt to secure longer-term protection from Orochimaru from Naruto and/or Tsunade. (Best case, we convince Tsunade to tell Orochimaru that our clan is not available for vivisection/murder/etc. and under her protection.)
- If the QMs are interested in writing "reasons you suck" style speeches, I would propose that one could be written to target Tsunade, rather than Orochimaru, in an effort to convince her that she has an obligation to protect the village as a whole from Orochimaru. This is possibly just as bad of an idea as telling off Orochimaru himself - which I emphatically think is a bad idea, in terms of the risk of him murderizing Hazou and/or Mari in response - but I think there's a higher possibilty of actually getting through to her. This may be because my model of Tsunade's personality is too optimistic, however.
With this stance, I've developed what I consider to be a safer (meaning extremely cowardly) approach that I feel might be more likely to get us through the current conflict alive, as well as a variant that I'd consider to still be lower risk than speechifying to Orochimaru, but still potentially more entertaining and risky for the QMs.
So, plans.
[] Plan - Operation: Avoid Operations
- Word Count: 267
- You Must Gather Your Party Before Venturing Forth:
- Retrieve Ami if Ami has not yet left the city.
- Send someone to get Naruto. (If Ami is available, maybe she can do this.)
- Send someone with good standing with Tsunade (e.g. Akane, Mari) to ask her to help protect Kei. If plausible, see if she is willing to convince Orochimaru to lay off Hazou/Kei on a long-term basis.
- While doing this, do not allow Kei to be alone, given that Orochimaru could just disappear her at any time if she's by herself.
- Send someone to loop Shikimaru and Ino in on the situation.
- Snake, Snake - It's a Snake:
- Take your team to speak to Orochimaru.
- Ensure that Naruto/Tsunade/etc. are prepped to defend the team if needed.
- Go with the already discussed plan of explaining that cognitively distinct shadow clones require a mental disadvantage that the clone does not inherit. (If possible, have someone with strong social skills, e.g. Ami, present this argument for us.)
- If we can swing it, have Tsunade convince Orochimaru to avoid cutting us open for the long-term.
- Fallbacks:
- If we fail to get help from either of the S-Rankers, see if Shikimaru/Ino have any advice on how to proceed.
- Potentially have Keiko sent on an emergency mission to buy time?
- Consider something like: Kagome stays at home. If he has not recieved an "all clear' message from the family by a set time, he sets off an implausble amount of explosives on Orochimaru's lab. This threat would largely exist to make killing Hazou or Kei too inconvenient to be worth bothering with.
- If we fail to get help from either of the S-Rankers, see if Shikimaru/Ino have any advice on how to proceed.
[] Plan - Do You Hear the People Scream?
- Word Count: 314
- You Must Gather Your Party Before Venturing Forth:
- Retrieve Ami if Ami has not yet left the city.
- Send someone to get Naruto. (If Ami is available, maybe she can do this.)
- While doing this, do not allow Kei to be alone, given that Orochimaru could just disappear her at any time if she's by herself.
- Send someone to loop Shikimaru and Ino in on the situation.
- Call the Doctor:
- Go talk to Tsunade yourself. Bring someone with a better rapport with her (e.g. Akane) with you to back you up in case of critical social failure.
- Explain to Tsunade that Orochimaru has threatened you and your sister and that you are in no condition to defend yourselves. You have evaluated your options. You have endured. You have tried to be "uninteresting". But you cannot truly be "uninteresting" as long as you serve the Will of Fire to the best of your ability, and you refuse to cease to help others.
- Orochimaru has acted against the Will of Fire for years, and for years, those in power have done nothing. The Hokage will do nothing. If this is allowed to happen, one more bright torch of fire will be exhausted, along with all those that it might have ignited in the future.
- Moreover, Orochimaru killing someone in such a powerful position sets a terrible precedent - it establishes that leaders are not safe, and that the Hokage cannot control him. This will erode the foundations of the village further, during what is already a dire time of crisis.
- There is precisely one person with the necessarily power and respect to stop this before it progresses - and that is Tsunade.
- Fallbacks:
- If we fail to get help from either of the S-Rankers, see if Shikimaru/Ino have any advice on how to proceed.
- Potentially have Keiko sent on an emergency mission to buy time?
- If we fail to get help from either of the S-Rankers, see if Shikimaru/Ino have any advice on how to proceed.
If anyone finds elements of my plans useful, please feel free to steal liberally from them for your own plans.
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Took critiques in mind on how the team would not be able to bluff their way out alone. So I have Hazo pitching to Tsunade to run interference against Orochimaru when Kei and Hazo demonstrate for him enough to lose interest. Well, Hazo might be an interesting case now, but he's revealing a jutsu, not a bloodline. Should be in the clear.
I'm thinking examination of earth-shaping through tests and Kei pitching Mist record-keeping would be a good price for her cooperation.
I'm thinking examination of earth-shaping through tests and Kei pitching Mist record-keeping would be a good price for her cooperation.
- Location
- how about no
This boils down to how well our characters understand the math behind their abilities on their character spreadsheets. If the behind the scenes math can be deduced IC I would assume either Kei or Shikamaru would be capable of checking the math.
I'm increasingly becoming of the opinion that we should have a 1 on 1 (well, Snowflake and her sisters can come too) conversation with Kei so we don't break the spirit of Asuma's orders when we discuss the realpolitik of our situation.
Before we pitch it to Asuma we can talk about it with Kei at least as a plan A 1/2. We need options and from what we've seen from the most recent chapter our creative solution of surgery was unanimously denied.
In addition to my post above yours, there's far too many variables for my liking to continue sitting on FOOM when it could be used to help out at a critical point in the war if the war drags on too long.
This is another point we can talk about with Kei with her conclusions about how long the war will rage on. Those calculations won't be definitive but they are better than assuming we already know how the war will play out. We can also ask her to estimate how long it would take to use FOOM to power up genin, chunin, and jonin, and, based on the timelines, how those fighters might impact the war when they are ready versus sending them out as is.
Kei was able to calculate the overall economic situation in the Liberator Village by observing the commerce within the village as well as sitting on a hill overlooking said village to see the caravans come and go. If anyone is capable of telling us whether or not selling FOOM is even feasible, let alone worthwhile, it's her.
Kei might very well decide selling FOOM cannot be done for any number of reasons for clan secret importance, the logistical impossibilities, or any other number of unknown causes. I am fine with that outcome because that will mean to me that it has been absolutely exhausted.
I don't believe we should consider Leaf and Uplift separate issues. Our goal should be to convert Leaf to the ideology of Uplift by working with our neighbors rather than effectively bullying them into following Uplift. To all of the ninjas of the world who only value strength if we come in as an S-ranker and demand they implement our policies they will do so as long as they think we are watching them. To them, our policies would be the same as Pain arriving in Leaf, establishing himself as Omnikage, and then demanding everyone self-flagellate for one hour daily to better understand each other through shared misery. Once we become too powerful to ignore we lose the opportunity to convert people without the implicit threat of violence.
I would much rather have Uplift spread as the village system did: we create a new, better way of doing things so everyone else must follow along or get left behind. Peace must make people happier than war or all one can achieve outside their dictator sphere of influence is an armistice. With all of Leaf powerful enough to repel all human threats we can begin working on long term problems like the declining population, chakra beasts, and necromancy research.
I also believe you're overlooking or undervaluing how important being the guy who won WWIV would be. Asuma would become our new BFF and unless we committed a string of treasons we would still be in his good graces. There would also be all of the goodwill we would accrue from all of the common soldiers because we would be directly responsible for making sure more of them came back home alive.
WRT our differences on the odds of the war, I completely agree that we disagree on how dangerous this war is for us personally. Jiraiya dying was completely unexpected and now Leaf will be facing multiple opponents of his caliber and the Goketsu have to deal with Oro personally. I err on the side of caution because our best line of defense died and now our second is under potentially existential threat. Would you change your position if Kei posits that, barring new information, Leaf as it currently stands would lose the war?
How can we sincerely preach cooperate-cooperate when we do not have Hazou proactively go out of his way to begin cooperating-cooperating? To convince a world that has mostly seen defection rewarded and compliance enforced at sword point that improvement is possible requires taking a risk by trusting people outside of our family. However, we do not have to make tough choices on who to trust based on how strong they are. FOOM allows us instead to select those who are trustworthy and make them strong. By selling FOOM properly we will never have to make decisions like Asuma had to, of choosing the strong yet wicked over the loyal yet weaker in the face of annihilation.
To me, to achieve the end goal you have set out (and for what it's worth 90% matches my own preferred outcome) we must share our light, not just enlarge our own. No one fire, not even the sun, can dispel all shadows. It is by giving our gifts to others that our light spreads, not as a bonfire soaring higher but as a sea of torches banishing the darkness.
One man with one million branches can only hoard his light in one fire or die as he tries to spread it around himself. One million trusted men each with one branch can light up a whole country. As the light spreads some of those still in the darkness will look in to see how much better the people in the light live and choose to offer their own branches to join the light-bearers. Others will sneer at the fools making themselves easy targets and strike from the shadows just as they have been conditioned to do. Those defectors will become the minority in time as those within the light identify the malefactors and then erase them.
One million can become one billion in time.
We need to include Kei in this type of decision making process, not just because of her analytical skills but also because we need to respect her agency. This is exactly the type of calculations her bloodline was designed to tackle and as a person she needs to feel as a part of our family again just like the good old days when we were running for our lives and this was her primary role.
Your hypothesis that selling FOOM is a waste of time does not need to be tested by having Hazou ask Asuma, but by having Hazou run the idea by Kei first. Our clan is willing to contemplate any solution after Hazou advocated voluntary surgery. I am not saying that selling FOOM needs to be the solution, but only a solution if they do not like any other ideas we come up with or if they unanimously prefer it.
More like (from my point of view), based on your prior paragraphs, that the wallet (FOOM) has an indeterminant value (when sold to Asuma). However, I argue that we have a way of possibly estimating the value of our wallet since our sister Kei has an understanding of how valuable obscure products can be, doubly so because she learned Wheeler-Dealer while Hazou does not know such a stunt. If the surgeon does not accept Bitcoin as currency then Kei can help us find a proverbial moneychanger service (Bitcoin -> actual coins -> surgery (FOOM -> actual goddam help from Asuma -> eventually killing Oro)). Furthermore, there is no downside to consulting with her because she ultimately wants what is best for us as our sister and she is already conditioned to entertain outlandish ideas. Letting the trusted consultant have all of the information she can is just good business sense. Discarding one possible solution because we think we might know better than her when evaluations are what she was created to do, is not.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Selling FOOM to get out of this situation is dumb when there's an easy solution that doesn't require us to give up our win condition. All we have to do is have Kei, Hazou and Mari go to Mist and bring them into the war. We then can implement summon army and crush Rock. Then Asuma can afford to protect us
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Surely we would need to spend an update actually winning Naruto and Tsunade's direct support anyways? We could draft a plan for that and do FS's next cycle
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
First of all, nice to see you again and this analysis is amazing. Thank you for doing it.This is actually a really interesting way to model EM, largely because it's symmetric. With a cold zone molecules will lose energy entering the area and gain it back as they exit, vice versa with a hot zone. This is functionally identical to there being a sort of potential energy within the zone that gas particles can gain or lose, and that means we can reason about an EM zone like any other area of high or low potential. In particular potential energy is just another form of energy, and energy is conserved. I'm not feeling up to doing all the math at the moment, but we can get a lot of useful analysis by just exploiting the structure of the problem.
The same way that a ball loses speed/energy as it moves up a ramp (trading kinetic energy for gravitational potential energy) a gas will lose temp/energy as it moves into a cold EM field (trading kinetic energy for "jutsu potential").
It doesn't really matter whether the "jutsu potential" field exists in any deeper sense, as long as these symmetries are present the system will act as if there's a new form of potential energy.
Here's a quick diagram of what would look like for a cold EM field. Hot EM fields are basically the same if you flip the various arrows and labels. Moving into a cold EM zone will feel exactly like moving out of a hot EM zone and vice versa.
Being able to look at this as a potential field means we can easily figure out where all the interesting questions are. Basically, if the potential field is flat things are boring and normal. A flat tabletop is a flat tabletop no matter what altitude it's at.
There's a few places where the field isn't flat:
Also because cold and hot fields are symmetric, I'm going to focus on the cold ones.
- The edges of the EM area of effect. (The derivative of the field with respect to position is non-zero here)
- Places where things affected by the field interact with things that aren't affected by the field. (This is analogous to field being zero when a solid or liquid is there)
- When the field is starting up or drawing down. (A non-zero time derivative also counts as non-flat)
The first of these non-flat areas, the edge of the EM zone, basically has to work like a ball rolling up a ramp for particles that can make it over the hump. If a gas particle has enough "heat" to be able to lose 10 degrees, then it'll lose that heat energy and move into the field's area of effect. The interesting part is what happens to the particles that don't have the energy to make it into the cold area. The diagram assumes they're reflected back but there's broadly four cases:
Next we have places where objects affected by the field (nominally gasses) interact with things that aren't. We can model this as the jutsu potential being 0 over any solid/liquid, but that still leaves the exact boundary condition. I see two major options here.
- Low energy particles are bounced back: This doesn't add any new energy to the system but it still manifests as a pressure differential. A cold EM zone will naturally have a lower air pressure than the external atmosphere even after you account for cold air being lower pressure than warm air. Likewise a hot EM zone will have a higher air pressure than expected. Seeing the actual magnitude of the pressure difference would require figuring out what value the jutsu potential field needs to have. I'll leave figuring the numbers out to @Radvic or someone else. At least this should be a good framework to get numbers easily.
- Low energy particles are given enough energy to make it into the zone: This does add new energy to the system and would make for an even stronger anomalous temperature differential. Since the field is adding energy to particles as they enter (mostly as jutsu potential) but not removing that spare energy as the particles exit, you'd get a wind of hotter than ambient gas leaving the zone. That zone of gas would make it harder to particles to enter the EM zone again lowering the air pressure inside the cold zone. The symmetry here is interesting since it means that trying to pump particles out of a Hot EM zone to lower the pressure would lead to the same wind of hot gas blowing into the warm zone. Even in the EN heating things is easy, cooling things is hard.
- Energy is added and removed in a balanced manner as particles enter and exit: This one is an interesting option largely because it's a decent workaround to the issue of an inherent pressure differential. Problem is that adding energy to a particle entering the cold zone and then stealing energy as it leaves the zone should be statistically identical to doing nothing. It should be the same as just having particles bounce, though I'd need to poke harder at the maths to be sure of that.
- Particles are added or removed to the zone to maintain/control pressure: This is basically a mulligan in terms of actual physics analysis. Pick what numbers you want, set other numbers so that the numbers are the correct numbers. Easy.
Finally we've got the places where the EM field is starting up or shutting down. I see two broad ways it could work:
- Gasses see the field as flat: This is both the boring and the exploitable option. It's boring because there's no experiment you could do to tell whether you're inside or outside the field. A hot iron block in freezing air would cool identically inside the field and out. The exploitable cases only happen when you're moving solids in and out of an EM field, whether it's physical movement or having the field raise and lower. In a more global sense any energy moving from the solid to the gas gets the base potential of the EM field added for "free". (At least when you're calculating how heat moves no energy is created or lost here) Moving a hot iron block into a cold EM area would cool it down quickly, cause the particles in the zone to warm up, and produce a slight warming of gasses leaving the zone. The EM zone wouldn't create or destroy heat because of these interactions, but you do get a powerful heat pump in a world with no air conditioning.
- Gasses have to deal with boundary potential before interacting with solids: In this case a gas particle has to basically exit the EM field in order to interact with a solid. This option basically says you can't bring a solid or liquid into an EM field in a meaningful way. EM would be reduced to a way of moving gasses around by exploiting the pressure differentials it creates. Maybe if you level it up enough you could create a high enough temperature and pressure to make a open-air fusion reactor. Don't do this. It would make Hazou sad. @eaglejarl: You don't want to make Hazou sad, do you?
I think that broadly covers the space of how @Veedrac's particular variant of EM could work. It doesn't apply to other variants of EM though the broad principles of this analysis should still be useful. When you don't have the symmetry of this model you'd have to actually crunch numbers to figure out which effects win out. I mostly did this because it was a really fun way to illustrate how far you can get in trying to understand physics by exploiting just the basic structure of the problem.
- Particles in the zone are given free jutsu potential: Here particles won't gain or lose energy as the field starts or ends, they just gain some magical jutsu potential for free. The air would actually have to cycle out of the zone before a change in temperature is felt. In a cold zone the initial air coming out would be hotter than ambient, and vice versa in a hot zone. Nothing much happening here.
- Particles act like they are crossing the spatial edges of a zone: Here we'd apply whatever would happen as a particle crosses physically into a zone, except over time instead. So generally the cooling or heating would be felt instantly, with whatever other effects happening as the initial particles cycle out, spread out over the jutsu's startup/shutdown, or as a single burst.
Edit: I'd really appreciate it if someone could figure out the equation for "jutsu potential" is with respect to temperature differential. Should be able to toss that at the kinetic energy equation and ideal gas laws to figure out which of the influences on zone pressure is dominant.
It makes a lot of sense and would make it easier to solve a lot of problems around EM. I have a general field of nervous brought on by repeated experience with interactions between physics and jutsu leading to quest-breaking exploits, but that's no reason not to investigate.
The idea with EM is that you can't cast it multiple times (either stacking or immediately after a prior cast has expired) in order to trivially reach absolute zero. It's early and I'm undercaffeinated so I haven't thought through the implications of your different models yet. Could you talk a little about the probable effects of casting it multiple times in succession? Maybe if we introduce some sort of cooldown -- "You can't cast it in a given area or overlapping area for the same amount of time that the prior one was active"?
We haven't looked at them yet but they're on the list. Thanks for suggesting them and sorry it's taking so long.
Second first: Proposed mechanics are fantastic because it means we don't have to create them.
First second: As a rule of thumb we want something that is interesting, easy to use, not completely setting-breaking, and not something that every ninja should already know. Things that aren't exactly dealbreakers but definitely get the Eyebrow of Suspicion are things that are strictly superior to an existing jutsu or are a duplicate of some overpowered bloodline ability. This is all off the top of my head but should give you a decent jumping off point.
Also -- and this is something that no MfD player has done with jutsu yet, so I mention it only proactively -- entrapment pisses us off a lot. That would be a situation where we approve a jutsu and the creator immediately says "Cool, we can use this to take over the world in the next two days by doing X simple thing"; clearly, we were handed something with an exploit built in that the creator was hoping we didn't notice. This isn't going to work, since we're immediately going to retcon the jutsu away, or at least kill the exploit.
"Hood inducing"?
A thing that the character would remember because it was closer in time than it was for the players: Mari's first lie was that "the Hokage has ordered Hazō to come for an emergency meeting."
+1 Insightful
I am explicitly not saying that this is a good idea, but it would definitely be fun to write.
Minor correction because apparently the update wasn't clear: The idea wasn't denied, the specific implementation of it was. It was pointed out that (a) it would have knock-on effects in that it would demonstrate Mari lied, and (b) Hazō could not pass a basic "show me what you can do" examination.
I don't have further details handy at the moment, but:
Leaf was founded in 1000 AS.
WWI lasted from May-August of 1013.
WWII lasted from November, 1034 to March 18, 1039.
WWIII lasted from July-September, 1050.
The story is currently in 1070 AS.
As a QM I need to remain neutral on player discuss so I am explicitly not commenting on who is right in the ongoing debate. On the other hand, I wanted to say that I love the poetry of this image.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You delivered all of Jiraiya's messages shortly after returning to Leaf. Not sure if it was shown onscreen, but assume you did it, either in person (Tsunade, most people) or via messenger (Orochimaru).
- Location
- Yes.
To the thread in general: Is there any situation where Hazou would be able to offer his body for nonlethal study without immediately running afoul of this? Orochimaru testing Hazou's bloodline ability to memorize terrain (in the way that Mari proposed) is one of the most non-invasive ways of studying his bloodline I can imagine; I don't think there's a reasonable justification anyone can make for not doing this. Saying that Hazou is too injured to do it right now is the only thing I can think of, and that just punts things a month back until Hazou's back at 100% (unless we want to permanently cripple Hazou in some lab experiment gone wrong, which would be hilarious).
I'm probably late to this party and things have already progressed here and/or on the Discord, but I just needed to put this out there before I catch up on everything else.
The characters in universe might not have time to think about how to convince Oro to work on the Great Seal right now. But we should. It is more important than Kei. How we deal with Oro/Kei situation could affect his anger and his trust in our honesty. Which affects how hard to convince him of Great Seal. And Great Seal could be a distraction topic from Kei. And if we do want to talk about great seal, either as distraction or after Kei/Oro done. We could put it in the current action plan. Since time skips in recent chapters have been impactful, so getting the info in hazou brain before any timeskips could help. (ex: after oro/kei situation is resolved. oro/hazou situation ensues, again with not much time for planning)
Oro wanted Kei in morning. After the war meeting we had a clan meeting. And the current plans involve more meetings. The more delay the more angry Oro gets.
We should send snowflake first. Tell him she is the cognitively independent shadow clone. She is independent because of bloodline. The progenitor is currently still making plans for her meeting with Oro, because she fears Oro wants to forcibly harm her. But she didn't want to make Oro wait, which is why Snowflake is here. Kei should be here shortly after her preparations. Note he has previously intimidated Hazou and Mari. As a shadow clone such stress would pop her. Apologize for her mother's lies. She merely feared for Kei's life.
and then kei can come in the same chapter after she does all preparations in the action plan
Even if Oro is still (unchanged from past Oro) willing to forcibly dissect people for his goals in the general case. He might not be willing to do it in Kei's specific case. Oro is socially blind. Hence he might not realize that Kei/Mari delaying his meeting with Kei is because of fear for her life. Hence if we tell him that explicitly, he might tell us he doesn't plan to forcibly harm her so that he can meet with Kei and sate his curiousity quicker.
We might use clan secrets as an excuse to prevent Oro from asking more stuff about the Mori bloodline. But is that Mori bloodline hampers creativity a clan secret or common knowledge?
@eaglejarl @Velorien
Since this was in the winning plan
Oro wanted Kei in morning. After the war meeting we had a clan meeting. And the current plans involve more meetings. The more delay the more angry Oro gets.
We should send snowflake first. Tell him she is the cognitively independent shadow clone. She is independent because of bloodline. The progenitor is currently still making plans for her meeting with Oro, because she fears Oro wants to forcibly harm her. But she didn't want to make Oro wait, which is why Snowflake is here. Kei should be here shortly after her preparations. Note he has previously intimidated Hazou and Mari. As a shadow clone such stress would pop her. Apologize for her mother's lies. She merely feared for Kei's life.
and then kei can come in the same chapter after she does all preparations in the action plan
Even if Oro is still (unchanged from past Oro) willing to forcibly dissect people for his goals in the general case. He might not be willing to do it in Kei's specific case. Oro is socially blind. Hence he might not realize that Kei/Mari delaying his meeting with Kei is because of fear for her life. Hence if we tell him that explicitly, he might tell us he doesn't plan to forcibly harm her so that he can meet with Kei and sate his curiousity quicker.
We might use clan secrets as an excuse to prevent Oro from asking more stuff about the Mori bloodline. But is that Mori bloodline hampers creativity a clan secret or common knowledge?
Just checking. Is this purposefully going against the promise to Asuma to not reveal what he said in the meeting, because the high stakes (hazo/kei life) makes it worth it?
@eaglejarl @Velorien
Since this was in the winning plan
And at least one person has expressed interest in putting it in an action plan again (with some modifications)
I think it is relevant to ask why it was not discussed in the chapter?
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly I didn't remember that part. I'd probably would leave it in though because regardless of how Asuma wants it to play out Hazou and Kei dying will majorly destabilize Leaf
But can easily be convinced to change it if people have suggestions
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Ok, let's just nuke Rock tomorrow and be done with this XD.
Intervention time!
"Oro, we need to talk about your... 'hobbies'."
If EM doesn't apply to solids, we might be able to bring in ice & turn it to steam (or vice versa) to get some interesting effects.
Do we have any really good way to store large amounts of energy, even if inefficient?
Has anyone thought about building a seal-based catapult? Heck, just make a huge lever - put a stone (to be thrown) at the long end, unseal 20 seals at once on the short end - boom! Reseal & repeat, could probably reload in like 10 seconds at ninja speeds. Maybe we can do this in a stair-step way to get our meteor built over rock.
Why does it have to be Hazo and Kei who has to be offered for dissection though. Snucle questionable as is his morals, is not an idiot and my read of him is that he really doesn't want to get dragged to the political stuff.
Couldn't he take a blood sample from Hazo and Kei once they explain to him it's their bloodline, and then indulge in as many blood clones or something as he wants for happy funtime? Though granted a Kei clone wouldn't have shadow clone and he wouldn't want to invest in the time needed to train one up from scratch when there's already a perfectly live specimen for testing..
Or, I dunno a Mori or Kurosawa ninja on death row? But are Hazo and Co that important enough to warrant the steps needed to do something like this? Maybe if the knowledge of the great seal failure was more wide spread and everyone was working together.
I worry we're going get a long grudge/irritation from an immortal Nuke-nin by not coming clean and trying to sidestep him like this. Instead of directly talking we even sent him off to the Isan mission.
What happens when he finally he runs out of patience? Remember how Jiraiya bullied his way into becoming Hokage. Here's a guy who is in the same league.
Couldn't he take a blood sample from Hazo and Kei once they explain to him it's their bloodline, and then indulge in as many blood clones or something as he wants for happy funtime? Though granted a Kei clone wouldn't have shadow clone and he wouldn't want to invest in the time needed to train one up from scratch when there's already a perfectly live specimen for testing..
Or, I dunno a Mori or Kurosawa ninja on death row? But are Hazo and Co that important enough to warrant the steps needed to do something like this? Maybe if the knowledge of the great seal failure was more wide spread and everyone was working together.
I worry we're going get a long grudge/irritation from an immortal Nuke-nin by not coming clean and trying to sidestep him like this. Instead of directly talking we even sent him off to the Isan mission.
What happens when he finally he runs out of patience? Remember how Jiraiya bullied his way into becoming Hokage. Here's a guy who is in the same league.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's totally fine! I just wanted to make sure they weren't lost in a forgotten corner somewhere. This quest is huge and thanks again for running it!
One of these is not like the others. Why did WWII last so long compared to WWI and WWIII? It's a basic history question so I'd be surprised if HDK
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"According to Mist history books, WWII lasted from November, 1034 to December, 1034. In December, 1034, Mist successfully defeated the foreign infidels and won the war. It then pulled back its forces to the Water Country to focus on issues of infrastructural maintenance while other countries engaged in minor skirmishes over land Mist chose not to hold onto."
Note: this was a joke. The official Mist account explains that the war had long periods of armistice between various villages, punctuated by shifting alliances, betrayals, and bursts of vicious conflict, and that formal peace was not signed until the other countries finally recognised Mist's superiority. In his wisdom, the Mizukage deigned to allow the defeated villages to preserve their sovereignty, in return for favourable terms that would grant Mist decades of prosperity with which to prepare for the real war.
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Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
Godhood mate.
- Location
- USA
Great, I'll keep it in mind. This is easy enough for me to do.
Noted. A couple more easy follow-up questions:
- To answer: "not something that every ninja should already know" -- How much does "It's a good technique, but you can only have so many of those and sometimes you need to prioritize other stuff with your XP" cover that? This seems like it would cover most techniques worse than Substitution.
- Easy-to-use on the QM side, right, in that it doesn't cause a lot of bookkeeping?
- I assume discussions of balance and exploits are also a point in favor, then?
- Are approved jutsu just the ones with nothing wrong with them? Or did the disapproved ones fail to cross a threshold of excitement from the QMs?
- Specifically, this would be helpful in terms of calibrating us on what is likely to be accepted. This is mutually beneficial, since we spend less time pitching strikes, and you have to spend less time wading through them.
But what do the Leaf history books say?
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Gai Mission Report 46.29-C: "Mist was being Unyouthful, so Leaf was Super Youthful instead, and then Mist went back home to reconsider the Youthfulness of their actions."
It was a World War, so there should have been involvement from other countries, especially if it lasted so much longer than Mist participated
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We've already seen what Leaf's mission reports look like (Kei quoted one of Gai's that read like the joke I made). Hazou wouldn't have any reason to know what non-Mist/Lead countries say about that war.
- Location
- Italy
Seeing a lack of plans. i wrote a super-massive plan to deal with Oro, it's far too big, but the idea behind is basically "Throw everything and the kitchen sink at it". As it is it's currently un-votable, but feel free to use what you can and modify it as you wish. It's basically a mix of every idea that popped into my mind.
[ ] Action Plan: Exit Uplift, Enter Rasengan.
[ ] Action Plan: Exit Uplift, Enter Rasengan.
- The situation is simple
- We cannot stall, never leave an enemy initiative and time
- We cannot run, We have things too many thing to protect
- We cannot negotiate, the enemy cares not for rules
- At the end of the day, the Goketsu have only one way they need: Full Force, Never Hold Anything Back.
- Just because we can't explode him, this truth doesn't change.
- First Attack: Gains and Losses
- If we die, we'll die kicking and screaming.
- That could mean Leaf falling apart like a castle of cards, or simply the Hokage being forced to inconvience him.
- Such as no more Final Gift Programme or enemy ninja being given to him or be it loss of funding.
- KEI+Kei+Goketsu+ISC is a lot of votes and the other Clans won't be happy too.
- We cannot hurt him, but we can annoy him.
- Cut the Snakes from the Summoning Network.
- More importantly, he'll obtain nothing, we'll burn our bodies to cinder before giving him a scrap of something to research
- If the Nara and the Tower cannot find a way to dead-man switch our bodies, you don't know who can.
- Let's make all of this very clear to Oro.
- If we die, we'll die kicking and screaming.
- Second Attack: The Jiraiya Manouver
- Bring Naruto and Tsunade to our side.
- Naruto fully well knows what would mean for Kei to die, so you're relatively confident he would be willing to protect her. Hazou's death could be glossed over with a lot of work, but not a KEI coordinator, it would be an attack on all the Clanless of Leaf, an example that the Hokage cares not if Orochimaru murder them compared to the clans.
- Tsunade could be willing to clash with Oro, simply to evade the fallout of Leaf exploding from our death.
- Of course, there is the very tangible risk they will simply decide to stand aside to stop Leaf from exploding. Two S-rankers fighting could very well speak the end of Leaf.
- We have different choices, we'll use them all:
- First, bring them on their side:
- For Tsunade you're thinking about something you already wanted to do, but were to scared of her/busy to propose it:
- The Senju Medical Crusade - The Goketsu School will have a medical class organized according to Tsunade instruction, that will teach Civilians medicine and medical research.
- Those people will be then divided in three branches:
- Branch 1: Healers - Will prepare and help Medical nin, streamlining their works. Will modify the sanitary setting. Will give teach civilians on proper sanitary precaution
- Branch 2: Missionaries . Will go to nearby village, teaching and doing the works healers do in other villages, making sure everyone in Fire will use proper precautions
- Branch 3: Researchers. Will, thanks to proper medical research teached, research non-chakra ways to deal with ailments.
- Those people will be then divided in three branches:
- Pressure Triggers Civililans Seals - The missionaries will distribuite those seals, Hazou will research them once he can fucking breathe without the world collapsing. If Hazou dies from non Oro related problems, Kagome will.
- Wall Seals - Anti Chakra Beasts
- Heating Seals - Keep people warm
- Cleaning Water Seal - Keep Water Safe
- Counter-Point, Oro could research those Seals, but he wouldn't create them, he has more important things to do. Only Goketsu is interested in doing these kind of things, so it's her problem. Does she wants to revolutionize the civilian life of Fire?
- Naruto: If we die, the precedent will be terrifying, Leaf could break in two.
- On top of that Goketsu already brought three Summoning Scrolls to Leaf, and they are not stopping, they already found out the Bear scroll is in possession of an 80 old ninja, and currently waiting to decide how to approach this.(Of course, we'll first notify the Tower of our findings if we didn't already, it's a project you will deal with once you have a second of free time)
- Three Summon Scrolls, The Summoning Army, Skywalkers and so on. The Goketsu are currently helping Leaf ascend and they are not going to stop. Helping Hazou survives help Leaf, especially in this situation.
- Even if direct protection is not given, their S-rank expertize can still be useful. Poisons that ruin the body, making it impossible to research. Shadow Clones as witnesses and so on. Any plans will be made stronger by their help.
- The Same is true for the Clans. We'll all contact the Toads,Dogs and Pangoling, asking for ways and jutsu to foolproof our plans.Possibly add redundancies.
- Third Attack: Carrots and Sticks
- Offer something to Oro in case of collaboration.
- For example, explain how the Shadow Clone- Bloodline interaction works, meaning any other mind affecting bloodline woud give him the same result. There five thinkers clans, two of which are currently in war with us.
- Kei is not important to that.
- Offer to talk to the Arachnid, bring a Snake there, and let him personally see the Great Seal and judge with his eyes what it is.
- Offer non-invasive surgery or bloodline study, after the war.
- Done by Kabuto, Oro hurt Mari and he showed willing to extract Clan Secrets by force, he showed himself as a bad faith actors.
- "A few hours of time wasted now will save me from many tedious speeches on how my lifestyle choices deprive the clan of summoner prestige." He said, maybe he should learn from it.
- Depending on his behaviour, Hazou and Kei could change idea.
- Done by Kabuto, Oro hurt Mari and he showed willing to extract Clan Secrets by force, he showed himself as a bad faith actors.
- Fourth Attack: More Important Matters
- The Great Seal is real, therefore the world is in danger.
- Maybe that is more important to play with his toys.
- Pressure him both with the fact that the Great Seal is, in fact, real. Pressure from the Tower(Proof from the Condors) and pressure on the Snakes.
- Fifth Attack: Be where the enemy isn't
- In case the current plans do not resolve the problem, Hazou and Kei will simply evade Oro.
- Between the 7th Path, Naruto clones and such, you feel it's possible to minimize risk while we find out about another strategy, not even Oro would kidnap someone in the Tower, for example.
- Worse case scenario, we could convince Asuma to send Hazou and Keiko to Mist with Ami to convince Mist to better partecipate in the war
- Possibly use the Summoning Army(Once intel becomes revealed) from Mist, to mis-direct the enemy nations.
- Bring Naruto and Tsunade to our side.
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