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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Sir Stompy said:
I hate to request spoons @eaglejarl @Velorien, but would it be possible to get a write up about Hazou's IC knowledge of regular chakra and nature charka? I'd like to figure out Sage Mode, but it's difficult without knowing what Hazou knows.

Summons and the Seventh Path are full of nature chakra so IMO it would make sense if Summoning training goes over it a little. Is the situation similar to canon where chakra is made of physical energy + spiritual energy?
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Hazō knows that the Seventh Path is saturated in nature chakra, which is different from regular chakra but still enables summoned people to perform jutsu etc. He does not know if it's possible for humans to use this chakra.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
This is actually a really interesting way to model EM, largely because it's symmetric. With a cold zone molecules will lose energy entering the area and gain it back as they exit, vice versa with a hot zone. This is functionally identical to there being a sort of potential energy within the zone that gas particles can gain or lose, and that means we can reason about an EM zone like any other area of high or low potential. In particular potential energy is just another form of energy, and energy is conserved. I'm not feeling up to doing all the math at the moment, but we can get a lot of useful analysis by just exploiting the structure of the problem.
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It's not necessarily an exact analogy, because temperature is not directional, but it's at least pretty close, and this was much of my intuition, so thanks for writing it out, and excellent diagramming <3. I'm not entirely sure whether it's better to be more or less exact to this analogy, but that's something I figured I could put off deciding until Hazō gets a lot better at physics.
  • Gasses have to deal with boundary potential before interacting with solids: In this case a gas particle has to basically exit the EM field in order to interact with a solid. This option basically says you can't bring a solid or liquid into an EM field in a meaningful way. EM would be reduced to a way of moving gasses around by exploiting the pressure differentials it creates. Maybe if you level it up enough you could create a high enough temperature and pressure to make a open-air fusion reactor. Don't do this. It would make Hazou sad. @eaglejarl: You don't want to make Hazou sad, do you?
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We can't have this, it would invalidate the whole point of the jutsu, which is to keep a space warm.
  • Particles in the zone are given free jutsu potential: Here particles won't gain or lose energy as the field starts or ends, they just gain some magical jutsu potential for free. The air would actually have to cycle out of the zone before a change in temperature is felt. In a cold zone the initial air coming out would be hotter than ambient, and vice versa in a hot zone. Nothing much happening here.
  • Particles act like they are crossing the spatial edges of a zone: Here we'd apply whatever would happen as a particle crosses physically into a zone, except over time instead. So generally the cooling or heating would be felt instantly, with whatever other effects happening as the initial particles cycle out, spread out over the jutsu's startup/shutdown, or as a single burst.
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I am very much in the later camp. It is conceptually simpler, truer to the intent of the jutsu, and the former has the weird side-effect that -X air comes out of a +X Elemental Mastery at the start. I'm not sure whether the former approach has any advantages.

Sir Stompy said:
It will still go nuke, probably. When the air gets to condensation temperatures (79 K) the affected Zone will drastically drop in pressure from approximately 1 bar to whatever the vapor pressure of liquid air is at the EM target temperature. This will cause a huge pressure differential. Such a pressure differential is enough for inrushing winds much much stronger than a strong tornado. Tornado strength winds result from a 0.9 bar pressure inside the center.

It looks like air freezes at 58 K. Since solids generally have no vapor pressure we could easily get a pressure differential of 1 bar at the center of our megatornado. This would cause widespread devastation surrounding the AoE of the jutsu. It would be much stronger than a tornado b/c of 10x the pressure differential and since tornadoes only damage structures for seconds vs the minutes the jutsu lasts

All in all I think we still have a WMD
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Say you have a mostly insulated room containing air at 150K and air around it at 300K. You use Elemental Mastery to reduce temperatures by 100K. The room falls to 50K over a few seconds, and the air rapidly condensates. This forces fresh air in, but that air is at 300K, so when it passes into the room it is only reduced to 200K. There may be some inrushing wind when the jutsu started, and some LN₂ would have formed, but it's not a sustained effect.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
I don't believe we should consider Leaf and Uplift separate issues. Our goal should be to convert Leaf to the ideology of Uplift by working with our neighbors rather than effectively bullying them into following Uplift. To all of the ninjas of the world who only value strength if we come in as an S-ranker and demand they implement our policies they will do so as long as they think we are watching them.
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This seems like a limited view of how personal power affects the interplay between Leaf's success and Uplift as a whole. What I was thinking of was less going from clan to clan saying 'swear that you will follow Uplift or I punch you' and more, well, Tsunade got to make her hospitals and revolutionize Leaf medical policy and nobody even thinks of getting in her way. A large part of Uplift is measured not in culture but in actually saving civilian lives that are dying as we speak, and there's a much clearer throughline between personal power and saving them.

Moreover, we have heard time and time again that Leaf culture reveres S-Rankers, like, unless you turn that reverence into fear like Orochimaru did you become one of the top ten most beloved people alive across all of the civilians and most of the ninja. The cultural sway that a clan of 3-5 S-Rankers would have cannot be understated even abstaining from 'follow Uplift or we punch you' methods that as you say would just encourage people to work around us.
Dictator4Hire said:
I also believe you're overlooking or undervaluing how important being the guy who won WWIV would be.
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Why are you still on this? I already told you, FOOM will not win WWIV. Point blank, that's just not gonna happen. It might win us WW5, but it is of negative value during WWIV since the first part of FOOM is spending a year or so grinding Resolve and nothing else. I don't know how you still think that this is a solution to WWIV, and it's very important that you stop thinking that because the whole reason Asuma cannot choose Hazou over Orochimaru is because Orochimaru is Leaf's only shot at winning WWIV and we don't have anything to replace him.
Dictator4Hire said:
How can we sincerely preach cooperate-cooperate when we do not have Hazou proactively go out of his way to begin cooperating-cooperating? To convince a world that has mostly seen defection rewarded and compliance enforced at sword point that improvement is possible requires taking a risk by trusting people outside of our family. However, we do not have to make tough choices on who to trust based on how strong they are. FOOM allows us instead to select those who are trustworthy and make them strong. By selling FOOM properly we will never have to make decisions like Asuma had to, of choosing the strong yet wicked over the loyal yet weaker in the face of annihilation.

To me, to achieve the end goal you have set out (and for what it's worth 90% matches my own preferred outcome) we must share our light, not just enlarge our own. No one fire, not even the sun, can dispel all shadows. It is by giving our gifts to others that our light spreads, not as a bonfire soaring higher but as a sea of torches banishing the darkness.

One man with one million branches can only hoard his light in one fire or die as he tries to spread it around himself. One million trusted men each with one branch can light up a whole country. As the light spreads some of those still in the darkness will look in to see how much better the people in the light live and choose to offer their own branches to join the light-bearers. Others will sneer at the fools making themselves easy targets and strike from the shadows just as they have been conditioned to do. Those defectors will become the minority in time as those within the light identify the malefactors and then erase them.

One million can become one billion in time.
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I do like the sentiment, but this feels like an isolated demand for rigor. Only now, when you think cooperate-cooperate would be in our best interest, do you start speaking platitudes about how we should always and only cooperate no matter the context of the situation.

Tell me, where was that sentiment when we were talking about cooperating with Orochimaru? Is your plan not to cooperate with Asuma to together defect against Orochimaru, expel him from the village and/or this reality against his will? I'm sure you can easily come up with a twist of wordplay that neatly slots an Oro-shaped exception into your 'always cooperate' platitude, but at that point I'm no longer interested in hearing arguments from that kind of model because it's obviously just rhetorical trickery. Naturally the spread of Uplift will involve us engaging in and advertising cooperate-cooperate relationships, but Uplift, not cooperate-cooperate, is our true goal, and our choices should be weighed against that. We are not a deontological saint trying to exemplify the ideal Uplift person, we are a ninja in a deathworld trying to leave the world better than we found it, and that means we should cooperate as much as we can afford to and then no more.
Dictator4Hire said:
More like (from my point of view), based on your prior paragraphs, that the wallet (FOOM) has an indeterminant value (when sold to Asuma). However, I argue that we have a way of possibly estimating the value of our wallet since our sister Kei has an understanding of how valuable obscure products can be, doubly so because she learned Wheeler-Dealer while Hazou does not know such a stunt. If the surgeon does not accept Bitcoin as currency then Kei can help us find a proverbial moneychanger service (Bitcoin -> actual coins -> surgery (FOOM -> actual goddam help from Asuma -> eventually killing Oro)). Furthermore, there is no downside to consulting with her because she ultimately wants what is best for us as our sister and she is already conditioned to entertain outlandish ideas. Letting the trusted consultant have all of the information she can is just good business sense. Discarding one possible solution because we think we might know better than her when evaluations are what she was created to do, is not.
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And for all that I've said up above, I do agree that asking Kei wouldn't harm anything. I don't think I agree that it's of indeterminant value unless if I average out my opinion with yours, and I have spent a decent chunk of this post making a case for why I think my priors on key points of this issue are more accurate than yours, so all told I still feel confident enough in my own opionion to say 'probably low value' with the same degree of confidence I talk about other ordinary topics I am relatively confident in.

Put another way, the 'indeterminant value' framing can be seen as a call to discard all current priors and defer to Kei's opinion, and I... kinda don't see why I would discard priors that I believe are well-founded? Moreover, while I do expect Kei to be experienced and knowledgeable about the topic, I also don't expect her to exhaustively cover every point in the argument, so even if I was willing to subordinate my priors to hers I expect to still have leftover priors that are not overridden by Kei's evaluation. This, of course, assuming Kei does in fact give an evaluation greater in accuracy than anything we can come up with, which is plausible but not a certainty, especially now when she is so emotionally distraught by like three different things which would each be a gut punch to her psyche.

So I still agree that asking Kei won't be harmful, but I cannot extend all the way to 'discard your priors and let Kei decide', both because I do not expect Kei to solve the entire debate for us and because I am not actually that confident that Kei at this point in time is a better arbiter than us. (This all is also under the supposition that our actions are symmetric, you discarding your priors to the same degree that I do, and naturally assymetry is possible in such an arrangement if one of us fails or declines to properly subordinate our priors, which adds another layer of uncertainty.) All in all I'm afraid I will have to decline the offer and continue approaching this argument from the priors that I currently have, with respect for Kei as a meaningful but not necessarily overriding information source should we end up consulting her.

(Also the metaphor is dead at this point, so I won't beat its corpse by trying to stretch it any further)
 
Veedrac said:
Say you have a mostly insulated room containing air at 150K and air around it at 300K. You use Elemental Mastery to reduce temperatures by 100K. The room falls to 50K over a few seconds, and the air rapidly condensates. This forces fresh air in, but that air is at 300K, so when it passes into the room it is only reduced to 200K. There may be some inrushing wind when the jutsu started, and some LN₂ would have formed, but it's not a sustained effect.
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Sure, you can get solid air without it going nuke if you try, but if you're working in an open space with room temp air (~300 K) that gets shifted to below the freezing point (ΔT = 250 K) it will go nuke since the inrushing air doesn't get any hotter.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Sure, you can get solid air without it going nuke if you try, but if you're working in an open space with room temp air (~300 K) that gets shifted to below the freezing point (ΔT = 250 K) it will go nuke since the inrushing air doesn't get any hotter.
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That's the non-stacked version, which should still go nuke under my formalism, yes.
 
[X] Training Kei: SC Training AND standing up to essies!

Resolve 44 -> 47 (3 Yamanaka XP, 135 XP)

Save 22 XP.


This training plan was voted in pretty conclusively in this voting close post, which should have taken Kei's Resolve to 44. If that plan wasn't implemented, then I'll update this plan to be 42 -> 47, but the saved XP should hold -- we have enough to increase our clone blocks. Also, it's a good arc for Resolve training as a narrative convenience, right?
 
Paperclipped said:
  1. To answer: "not something that every ninja should already know" -- How much does "It's a good technique, but you can only have so many of those and sometimes you need to prioritize other stuff with your XP" cover that? This seems like it would cover most techniques worse than Substitution.
  2. Easy-to-use on the QM side, right, in that it doesn't cause a lot of bookkeeping?
  3. I assume discussions of balance and exploits are also a point in favor, then?
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Respectively:

  1. That partially covers it, as does "not every technique is available to every ninja." That's why I said it wasn't an automatic downcheck.
  2. Correct.
  3. Correct.
Paperclipped said:
And a spoons-expensive question: for the jutsu you checked/downchecked in the original post in this convo, could you offer some reasoning or summarize QM discussion on why they were approved or disapproved?

  1. Are approved jutsu just the ones with nothing wrong with them? Or did the disapproved ones fail to cross a threshold of excitement from the QMs?
  2. Specifically, this would be helpful in terms of calibrating us on what is likely to be accepted. This is mutually beneficial, since we spend less time pitching strikes, and you have to spend less time wading through them.
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I'm afraid we didn't save the comments which contained the QM discussion. Sorry.

Lord Marshal said:
Seeing a lack of plans. i wrote a super-massive plan to deal with Oro, it's far too big, but the idea behind is basically "Throw everything and the kitchen sink at it". As it is it's currently un-votable, but feel free to use what you can and modify it as you wish. It's basically a mix of every idea that popped into my mind.
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This made me remember something I had wanted to mention a while ago: I know that bullet points can be a pain in the butt in BBCode. They are in fact helpful to us but it's also fine to simply use concise text.

Veedrac said:
Say you have a mostly insulated room containing air at 150K and air around it at 300K. You use Elemental Mastery to reduce temperatures by 100K. The room falls to 50K over a few seconds, and the air rapidly condensates. This forces fresh air in, but that air is at 300K, so when it passes into the room it is only reduced to 200K. There may be some inrushing wind when the jutsu started, and some LN₂ would have formed, but it's not a sustained effect.
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This would mean that the jutsu works in the opposite way intended -- you were trying to cool the area but it ended up hotter. Couldn't we say that it applies an initial energy delta and that delta increases over time in order to maintain the appropriate temperature?
 
Dictator4Hire said:
From my understanding of FOOM I am under the impression that FOOM is a shadow of what MfD!Naruto is actually capable of (personal teaching from multiple Hokage, shadow clone from an early age for a head start of learning bonuses, has a demon in his gut, and he is already an S-rank while he and Hazou are the same age). While we may not be put physically into another killbox again the threat for defecting and committing treason will instead be death by angry clone army.
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I think it's clear that Naruto is strong because of clones but not exactly FOOM. He doesn't likely raise his resolve as a point, trying to loop it so he can make more clones.

Also Naruto's clones will likely lose to the 5 or so FOOM'd Goketsu.
 
eaglejarl said:
This would mean that the jutsu works in the opposite way intended -- you were trying to cool the area but it ended up hotter. Couldn't we say that it applies an initial energy delta and that delta increases over time in order to maintain the appropriate temperature?
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I think the jist of @Veedrac's model is that the jutsu applies a ΔT instead of maintaining a constant temperature. This neatly prevents EM nukes by stacking the effect, since the weaker ΔT is insufficient to cause a phase change in the inrushing air. It allows EM nukes where the ΔT is enough to go from room temp air to liquid or solid air in one step.

In the original jutsu description, EM nukes by stacking are disallowed by chakra fiat rather than the vagaries of the jutsu so this version appeals to me. However constant temperature effects are much easier to model. So the original description has its appeal as well.
 
Idle thought:

You know how Ami flirts and teases Hazou? I wonder if that's her way of trying to maintain a romantic tinge to their relationship? Because while Ami has no idea what to do with family and platonic sibling bonds (that aren't the trauma-bond between her and Kei), Ami has dealt in romance as part and parcel as an I&S jonin.

So, rather than dealing with the unfathomable unknown that is a sibling-esque relationship, Ami reframes it under something she does know: romance. Of course, Hazou-the-character still knows her a little too well and is just a little too insightful for Ami to be wholly comfortable with the emotional vulnerability inherent within their dynamic, but it's something at least vaguely familiar, rather than a complete unknown.

---

Note: this is an idle thought I had less than 5 minutes ago and hasn't had the benefit of examination. Just wanted to pose the idea before I forgot it.
 
I made a projection of what Noburi's stats could look like in 3 years (with an intentionally-generous XP rate of 4 base + 1 bonus XP per day):

docs.google.com

FtD: Gōketsu Noburi (projection)

docs.google.com docs.google.com

This is intended to cover the worst-case scenario where the Akimichi Chakra Enhancement increases his barrel capacity, rather than his base reserves, preventing him from using SC training.

In the end, he has a solid jounin build with two attack options (WDB or WW + HM), solid defensive stats with Ath:60, Alt:55, Sub:25, GS:20, and a 2300 total chakra pool that befits the Toad Summoner, as well as 30/30 medical stats. His socials fall by the wayside because of pyramid hell.
 
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eaglejarl said:
This would mean that the jutsu works in the opposite way intended -- you were trying to cool the area but it ended up hotter. Couldn't we say that it applies an initial energy delta and that delta increases over time in order to maintain the appropriate temperature?
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Idk, it seems natural to me.

Let's say you had a room at 10°C. You cast Elemental Mastery to heat the room by 5K, so now the room is 15°C. Then someone fills the room with lava at 1000°C, which starts heating the air to 1000°C.

Would you expect the Elemental Mastery, which was cast to heat the air by 5K, to now start cooling the air by almost 1000K? Personally, I wouldn't. You certainly could say it works this way, but it seems odd, and it's more abusable.
 
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Veedrac said:
Idk, it seems natural to me.

Let's say you had a room at 10°C. You cast Elemental Mastery to heat the room by 5K, so now the room is 15°C. Then someone fills the room with lava at 1000°C, which starts heating the air to 1000°C.

Would you expect the Elemental Mastery, which was cast to heat the air by 5K, to now start cooling the air by almost 1000K? Personally, I wouldn't. You certainly could say it works this way, but it seems odd, and it's more abusable.
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The jutsu explicitly states that it doesn't affect non-gases so lava isn't a particularly good element of a counterfactual.

It would be great to have a physics-based explanation that lets us be consistent and easily answer questions. Still, that explanation needs to work with the defined purpose of the jutsu. If you're trying to cool an area and it immediately results in heating it, that doesn't fit the purpose of the jutsu and therefore we need a different model.
 
eaglejarl said:
The jutsu explicitly states that it doesn't affect non-gases so lava isn't a particularly good element of a counterfactual.

It would be great to have a physics-based explanation that lets us be consistent and easily answer questions. Still, that explanation needs to work with the defined purpose of the jutsu. If you're trying to cool an area and it immediately results in heating it, that doesn't fit the purpose of the jutsu and therefore we need a different model.
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The air in the room only warmed up because air entered the room that was 150K hotter than the air originally in the room, the jutsu only cooled it by 100K, and the original cold air stopped being air. This wouldn't happen in normal circumstances. That's why I gave the analogy. I can redo it without lava:

Let's say you had a room at 10°C. You cast Elemental Mastery to heat the room by 5K, so now the room is 15°C. Then someone brings in a large tank of air that has been heated by a furnace to 1000°C. Would you expect the Elemental Mastery, which was cast to heat the air by 5K, to now start cooling the air by almost 1000K?
 
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Let's not poke too hard at the edge cases of the jutsu behind one of our only remaining viable nuke ideas. We've managed it for Shadow Clone, we can probably apply the same principles to Elemental Mastery as well.
 
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