Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Shrooms · Nov 4, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
This will almost certainly be screaming and fainting. The thrashing will make it more difficult for Oro to be careful. I have seen quite a few surgeries (on cats and dogs admittedly) and being awake through it is not pleasant. Those are minor surgeries compared to what Hazou will endure. Many vets will do a neuter on the kitchen table with a scalpel and towel.

Before widespread anesthesia there was an extreme focus on speed in surgical procedures because shock would literally kill the patients. Read about Robert Liston, the only surgeon who ever managed a 300% fatality rate for a single procedure.

I mean, I don't think paralysis is outside of Oro or Tsunade's abilities, tbh... but then again, usually that also means losing sensation which somewhat defeats the point, so fair enough. I'll give other a chance to chime in on this before I change it tomorrow. Also begs the question of why Oro usually does dissect people while conscious if it results in damaging the specimen

Sir Stompy said:
This is accomplished by Tsunade and Naruto looming over him. If we can't get them to stand guard we should not go ahead with this idea.

Remember that we also need him to not kill us later, though. Tsunade and Naruto won't be there 24/7. This needs to continue benefiting him, even if marginally.

Sir Stompy · Nov 4, 2021

Shrooms said:
I mean, I don't think paralysis is outside of Oro or Tsunade's abilities, tbh... but then again, usually that also means losing sensation which somewhat defeats the point, so fair enough. I'll give other a chance to chime in on this before I change it tomorrow. Also begs the question of why Oro usually does dissect people while conscious if it results in damaging the specimen

Who would comply willingly with the person vivisecting them? Generally vivisections are performed b/c the person doesn't care and doesn't have easy access to anesthesia. Noburi's ability to do it with chakra drain is a major advantage over most med-nin.

Shrooms said:
Remember that we also need him to not kill us later, though. Tsunade and Naruto won't be there 24/7. This needs to continue benefiting him, even if marginally.

This is a good point and I'll think more about it. We might be able to get away with selling him on the merits of Hazou's continued existence as a testament of his ability to do this procedure non-lethally.

EDIT: Also the procedure should take place in Leaf General Hospital and not Orochimaru's Lab

Eisenhelm · Nov 4, 2021

i distinctly remember something about how the isanese perceived the sanin as some kind of monster, it was among Yuno's internal narration in the Isan arch.

cdeevfrr · Nov 4, 2021

If we're going to consent to invasive investigational surgery, and try to set it up as a model for Orochimaru to use going forward... Should we charge him a fee to make this process more palatable to others? I wonder if we could at least make a dent in the debt crisis while we're dealing with this one.

Does Orochimaru even use money?

Edit: Maybe we could even make some kind of contract so Oro has even more incentive not to actually cause lasting harm... Like, say, if anything bad happens to Hazou, then Oro has to pay enough that it would seriously inconvenience him (enforced by Naruto/Tsundae). I mean, contract enforcement is one of the fundamental points of having a government, right?

Sentient Tree · Nov 4, 2021

Velorien said:
The woman glanced at Hazō, who'd dashed to Shikamaru's office as soon as he heard there'd been a message, technically interfering with Shikamaru's clan head right to confidentiality (shinobi had been accused of espionage for less). Her brief up-and-down look suggested she'd drawn conclusions from him already being in Shikamaru's compound at first light, looking miserable (how had he been supposed to sleep?) and wearing only borrowed pyjamas. Hopefully, she just thought they'd been drinking into the early hours.

I think you mean, hobbled swiftly.

Sir Stompy · Nov 4, 2021

Cariyaga said:
I would be extraordinarily surprised if Tsunade was incapable of numbing pain.

As in numbing pain without interrupting consciousness? Something that modern medicine can't do particularly well? It's possible, but I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't do it.

Edit: Modern medicine can do this, but it's kind of a pain in the ass

Shrooms · Nov 4, 2021

cdeevfrr said:
Should we charge him a fee to make this process more palatable to others? I wonder if we could at least make a dent in the debt crisis while we're dealing with this one.

I personally don't want to push our luck...

cdeevfrr said:
Does Orochimaru even use money?

Yes, money is the magic "make others do boring labor stuff for you" juice. Even he needs money to get supplies and errands done, otherwise he would need to waste time scaring people into giving him what he wants for menial shit

Sir Stompy said:
EDIT: Also the procedure should take place in Leaf General Hospital and not Orochimaru's Lab

Good point

Shrooms · Nov 4, 2021

faflec said:
The weird thought occurs to me that we could try convincing Orochimaru that he could get cognitively-independent Shadow Clones by becoming a multiplicity.

Does hazou actually know about this? I don't think he is aware of either Ami or Mari being plural, he just heard Akane say something vague about Dark Ami one time or something

RandomOTP · Nov 4, 2021

[x] Action Plan: Pretty Damn Far
Word Count: 388

Meeting (Mari, Akane, Noburi, Kagome, Kei/Snowflake)
- Summarize Situation, Present Plans
  - Disclaimer: half-formed ideas, don't assume malice if nonviable
  - Our Priority is Kei...
    - Refuse to Lose Family
      - Kei, Snowflake, Crystal, Winterlight, Scalpel, Prism, Constellation, Spiral, Moonlight, Soar, Kitten, Whisper, Prayer, Kiss, and those-yet-unnamed.
  - Dissuade: Kei's Clones are independent because her bloodline cognitively impairs her, but Shadow Clones (don't receive bloodlines) don't have this limitation
    - Implication: For Orochimaru to gain this benefit, he must cognitively impair either himself/clones
    - Misdirection: Leaf thinks Snowflake's a long-term Nara social experiment. Doubledown. Claim Snowflake's an experiment regarding directed personality drift, and Mari wasn't informed. (Controlling Variables. Rumor mill knows Kei and Mari aren't friendly.)
      - Fake/backdate paperwork accordingly
  - Get Other Clan Heads' Support?
    - Currently, we only have Nara/ISC support.
    - Hyuuga (among all the others) wouldn't approve of what Orochimaru's doing.
    - Other noble clans may add weight behind "What Orochimaru is trying isn't the Will of Fire and we cannot tolerate this. Solve This Problem."
  - Hazou will (conditionally) volunteer for live bloodline examination.
    - Offer to share whatever live data we can during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward.
    - In exchange, Orochimaru agrees to:
      - Ensure we recover in a few weeks
      - Allows Tsunade and Naruto to attend. If we die, they commit to immediately destroying our body to deny further data acquisition.
      - Orochimaru shares data with Hazou only.
    - Clan secrets are BIG, may ruin Mist alliance. How can we keep this secret?
  - If we get the all-clear, fill our allies (Ami, Shikamaru, etc.) in on the plan and request feedback/help.
    - Ami (in private):
      - We made an agreement with The Ami, unity towards Kei's survival.
      - Five Clans know things. Here be dragons? Fine. If Kei lives, then we'll gladly endure the Consequences.
      - Anything you can tell us to persuade Orochimaru Snowflake is deadend research, please... even if it draws his focus towards us.
    - Naruto/Tsunade (performed by whomever is more likely to succeed):
      - If they are present/helping during procedure, our chances of success increases.
      - If not for us, please help Kei.
      - Tsunade: Name price to attend procedure. If she doesn't, we're dead anyway.
      - If Hazou talks to Naruto: Apologize. We should've been brothers, and it's our fault. You'll be a great Hokage. When that happens, please remember: the Will of Fire can spark within anyone, anywhere.

cdeevfrr · Nov 4, 2021

Should we offer to be a field test for some of Oro's bioseal upgrades?

Might give Oro more reason to keep us alive, in exchange for putting our long-term physical abilities at risk

we could test things that conflict with Oro's own loadout
- he turns into snakes, I bet that doesn't play nice with 'turn my bones to steel' modifications
we could test complicated stuff that's trivial for him to "install" but it's hard to know what fails first, so live ninja data is very valuable. Like a car - doesn't it take a lot of cars breaking down before manufacturers know which parts need the most work?
we could ask for something flashy, to be advertising for his skills.
- "Sign up for Oro's body shop service, just provide some bodily information and you can get sweet upgrades like these!"
We could ask to be a field test for things that look promising in the basement trials, but that he isn't ready to try out himself yet.
- I bet he's got tons of projects currently in the phase "Mortality rate less than 30%, but utility uncertain. Pending live combat testing."
- Heck, since he's modified himself hundreds of times and he's not dead yet, he probably doesn't try things until the mortality rate is less than 1%, and I feel like we'd be happy to take even a 5% chance of death from an upgrade, if it reduces the chance of Oro going "Oops, I nicked an artery - but just look at all that gushing data!".

cdeevfrr · Nov 4, 2021

What's with all the wills? We can't throw our last shuriken!

Eisenhelm · Nov 4, 2021

RandomOTP said:
Apologize. We should've been brothers, and it's our fault. You'll be a great Hokage someday. When that happens, please remember: the Will of Fire can spark within anyone, anywhere.

we already apologized all those months ago.

RandomOTP said:
If not us, Kei?

unlikely, she has no extra knowledge than Shikamaru doesn't.

RandomOTP said:
We will (conditionally) volunteer for live vivisection.

we could at least ask their opinions in:
1) disclouse that it is a thinker bloodline thing,so far he knows that is something keiko can do, pointing out the reason could sufficiently sift his attention from just kei to the five as a whole. because if we do that then we could.
2) capture another thinker member clan from our enemies so Orochimaru can satiate his curiosity.
he should be busy enough about whit that he would not immediately go for Hazou.

Black King · Nov 4, 2021

So...to avoid being killed an experimented on by Orochimaru, y'all want to...volunteer to be experimented on by Orochimaru? That's incredibly short sighted. Nothing stops him from simply 'slipping' or 'making a mistake' and killing us anyways. Literally nothing. No amount of onlookers or supervision can stop that.

It'd make more sense to ask Asuma if we can run somewhere else, under the guise of a mission, or maybe on a serious mission. All of the Goketsu. Whether it be to Isan or the Cloud. Hazo (once recovered)+Kei+Kagome+Akane+Mari+Noburi might have a decent chance at like...living, even if Orochimaru does a direct confrontation. Better even if Shikamaru is there and/or if Ami joins. And they all have reason to.

And then adding Naruto...if possible, is basically 100% safety.

RandomOTP · Nov 4, 2021

cdeevfrr said:
What's with all the wills? We can't throw our last shuriken!

Hazou doesn't have one yet, and if he dies then it'll be insanity for the Goketsu. There's already been some in-world talk of confusion who'll inherit the clan (Mari didn't want it when Jiraiya died, Noburi covered for Hazou when Hazou was doing Summoner training, and Akane covered for Hazou when Hazou was on the 7th Path, traveling from the Dog Territory to the Arachnid Territory to face the Eaters).

We don't want Hazou to die, and the QM's have said that they'd debate amongst themselves on whether or not to continue the Quest if Hazou dies, but this is a simulationist quest and drafting a last will and testament abides by the simulation.

Eisenhelm said:
we already apologized all those months ago.

Hazou could very well be walking into his death. Hazou-the-character regrets the fact that he never became brothers with Naruto in the way that Jiraiya had hoped.

Eisenhelm said:
unlikely, she has no extra knowledge than Shikamaru doesn't.

I don't know what this is referring to.

Eisenhelm said:
we could at least ask their opinions in:
1) disclouse that it is a thinker bloodline thing,so far he knows that is something keiko can do, pointing out the reason could sufficiently sift his attention from just kei to the five as a whole. because if we do that then we could.
2) capture another thinker member clan from our enemies so Orochimaru can satiate his curiosity.
he should be busy enough about whit that he would not immediately go for Hazou

On the first part, I'm a bit leery of divulging bloodline secrets (especially bloodline secrets that brush up against secrets regarding The Five Clans) in front of Akane, Ino, Mari, and the rest. That's why I only bring it up Forbidden Lore with Ami, after gaining privacy.

On the second, I worry that broaching the topic will have Ami going to Orochimaru in order to "save" her sister. Because Mist is our ally in the war, and it's the Mori that Orochimaru is interested in. If it meant your vote, I'd be willing to add a version of your proposal that asks something to the effect of "how viable would it be to get a non-Uplift Mori to Orochimaru during the chaos of a battle?"

Sir Stompy · Nov 4, 2021

Black King said:
So...to avoid being killed an experimented on by Orochimaru, y'all want to...volunteer to be experimented on by Orochimaru? That's incredibly short sighted. Nothing stops him from simply 'slipping' or 'making a mistake' and killing us anyways. Literally nothing. No amount of onlookers or supervision can stop that.

I was originally 100% on board with this idea, but I've shifted away from it as of this update. Asuma revealing that he won't protect us even if Oro forcibly kidnaps us was the major deciding factor. I thought by agreeing to the "examination" (sidenote everyone, we need to rebrand this) we would forfeit the implicit protections of a Leaf nin, but Asuma straight up told us that this is a private matter between Oro and us and he won't intervene with the authority of the Hokage.

By enlisting the help of Tsunade and Naruto I think we can mitigate some of the risk.... but in all honesty this is a forced move. We don't really have a good choice anymore.

Black King said:
It'd make more sense to ask Asuma if we can run somewhere else, under the guise of a mission, or maybe on a serious mission. All of the Goketsu. Whether it be to Isan or the Cloud. Hazo (once recovered)+Kei+Kagome+Akane+Mari+Noburi might have a decent chance at like...living, even if Orochimaru does a direct confrontation. Better even if Shikamaru is there and/or if Ami joins. And they all have reason to.

Asuma isn't going to give us permission to go missing-nin. This is an option if we betray Leaf, but short of that .... no.

Kiba · Nov 4, 2021

Noburi hadn't shown a lot of initiative when it comes to leadership. Ditto about Akane.

Meanwhile, Mari did a lot of things, so did Haru. Those two individuals showed a lot of initiative.

Sir Stompy · Nov 4, 2021

Kiba said:
Noburi hadn't shown a lot of initiative when it comes to leadership. Ditto about Akane.

Meanwhile, Mari did a lot of things, so did Haru. Those two individuals showed a lot of initiative.

Mari and Haru are the least Uplift-Aligned of all the Goketsu. Personally I think Akane should become Clan Heir, she's a combat monster and Hazou's right hand.

Eisenhelm · Nov 4, 2021

RandomOTP said:
n the first part, I'm a bit leery of divulging bloodline secrets (especially bloodline secrets that brush up against secrets regarding The Five Clans) in front of Akane, Ino, Mari, and the rest. That's why I only bring it up Forbidden Lore with Ami, after gaining privacy.

I'm a bit leery of dying needlessly, they already know, that is why they treat snowflake as if she was her own person. heck, we had a welcoming party.

RandomOTP said:
On the second, I worry that broaching the topic will have Ami going to Orochimaru in order to "save" her sister. Because Mist is our ally in the war, and it's the Mori that Orochimaru is interested in. If it meant your vote, I'd be willing to add a version of your proposal that asks something to the effect of "how viable would it be to get a non-Uplift Mori to Orochimaru during the chaos of a battle?"

i would agree to that, but:
1) Ami is clever, she would leave that as the last option (like we should be doing)
2) If Hazou dies, or even if he is unable to complete the great seal in time everything ends. hazou is infinitely more valuable than Ami from a quest point of view.
being dissected in our terms is better than the alternative, but we should be throwing everything to the wall in order not to get dissected first.

you have my vote if we ask Shikamaru and Kei (not necessarily just them or in private) their opinions on disclosing to Orochimaru the interactions between a thinker's mind and shadow clone.
i believe this is our best Ace to save Kei from being dissected and him finding out either way.

also, i thing you could cut 54 words easily

RandomOTP said:
[x] Action Plan: Pretty Damn Far
Word Count: 353

Clan Meeting

Akane sends Shadow Clones to find Ino, Shikamaru, and Ami. Summon Snowflake.

Summarize Situation, Present Plans.

Our Priority is Kei:

Refuse to Lose Family

(Kei, Snowflake, Crystal, Winterlight, Scalpel, Prism, Constellation, Spiral, Moonlight, Soar, Kitten, Whisper, Prayer, Kiss, and all those yet-unnamed.)

Potential lie: Leaf thinks Snowflake is a long-term Nara social experiment. Doubledown.Claim Snowflake's an experiment regarding directed personality drift, and Mari wasn't informed. Controlling Variables. Rumor mill knows Kei and Mari aren't friendly.

Fake/backdate paperwork accordingly

We will (conditionally) volunteer for live vivisection.

We must live with no permanent injury.

Orochimaru allows Tsunade and Naruto to attend.

Orochimaru shares data with Hazou, but no other clans.

In return, we will...

Personally advocate the procedure.

The data would be useful for Orochimaru and recipient, and may entice more volunteers.

Share live data to Orochimaru during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward, for more data.

YSJ/Tsunade to endure consciousness?

Ami, in private

Five Clans know things. Here be dragons? Fine, here be dragons. If Kei lives, then we'll endure the Consequences.

We made an agreement with The Ami, unity towards Kei's survival.

Anything you can tell us to persuade Orochimaru that Snowflake is dead end research, please... even if it draws his focus towards us.

Write a will.

Dog Scroll to Akane,

Clan Head to Noburi.

Resurrection Notes to Kagome.

Don't fall apart without me --in either sense.

Thank you.

Naruto (sanity-checked, then performed by Hazou/Kei/Ami(whomever is more likely to succeed))

Explain Orochimaru crisis, and the plan. If Naruto is present during procedure, our chances increase.

If not us, please help Kei.

If Hazou's talking to him: Apologize. We should've been brothers, and it's our fault. You'll be a great Hokage. When that happens, please remember: the Will of Fire can spark within anyone, anywhere.

Tsunade (sanity-checked, then performed by Hazou or Mari (whomever is more likely to succeed))

Explain Orochimaru crisis, and the plan. If Tsunade oversaw the procedure, she could keep us alive.

Name price to attend procedure. If she doesn't, we're dead anyway.

If not us, Kei?

the yellow is there because i don't know how much you want it.

cdeevfrr · Nov 4, 2021

@RandomOTP Fair points about the will thing

RandomOTP · Nov 4, 2021

Black King said:
So...to avoid being killed an experimented on by Orochimaru, y'all want to...volunteer to be experimented on by Orochimaru? That's incredibly short sighted. Nothing stops him from simply 'slipping' or 'making a mistake' and killing us anyways. Literally nothing. No amount of onlookers or supervision can stop that.

I don't like it, either, but we really have no other viable alternatives within the narrative. Make a competing plan.

Black King said:
It'd make more sense to ask Asuma if we can run somewhere else, under the guise of a mission, or maybe on a serious mission. All of the Goketsu. Whether it be to Isan or the Cloud. Hazo (once recovered)+Kei+Kagome+Akane+Mari+Noburi might have a decent chance at like...living, even if Orochimaru does a direct confrontation. Better even if Shikamaru is there and/or if Ami joins. And they all have reason to.

You're essentially proposing that the entire clan leave Leaf and go missing-nin. What about the unnamed Goketsu ninja who live on the Compound? What about those who aren't as mobile (such as Mai), or those who aren't combat-ready?

Packing our stuff up and leaving for Isan/front lines will only delay the threat of Orochimaru (war will end eventually, or Orochimaru may be sent within traveling-distance of us).

Sir Stompy said:
I was originally 100% on board with this idea, but I've shifted away from it as of this update. Asuma revealing that he won't protect us even if Oro forcibly kidnaps us was the major deciding factor. I thought by agreeing to the "examination" (sidenote everyone, we need to rebrand this) we would forfeit the implicit protections of a Leaf nin, but Asuma straight up told us that this is a private matter between Oro and us and he won't intervene with the authority of the Hokage.

By enlisting the help of Tsunade and Naruto I think we can mitigate some of the risk.... but in all honesty this is a forced move. We don't really have a choice anymore.

I was originally 100% against this idea, and I'm only begrudgingly okay with it because it's the only option available to us and because having Naruto/Tsunade there will be a somewhat mitigating factor.

Kiba said:
Noburi hadn't shown a lot of initiative when it comes to leadership. Ditto about Akane.

Meanwhile, Mari did a lot of things, so did Haru. Those two individuals showed a lot of initiative.

Mari didn't want it when Jiraiya died and still doesn't want it. She could take leadership of the Goketsu at any time, but she doesn't.

I do not trust Haru with Uplift. He'd be more akin to Hidan, demanding now and with bloodstained hands. He has an Aspect called "Savage Uplift" for a reason.

Sir Stompy · Nov 5, 2021

RandomOTP said:
I was originally 100% against this idea, and I'm only begrudgingly okay with it because it's the only option available to us and because having Naruto/Tsunade there will be a somewhat mitigating factor.

Yeah I've been a vocal opponent of this for a while mostly because I thought Asuma would be slightly more useful than a pile of wet rags.

Jiraiya must have had a massive blindspot when it came to Oro. Literally what the fuck, how could he want to readmit this monster to Leaf? I understand why Hiashi agreed, b/c we were so weak after BotG. But surely Jiraiya knew what sort of person Oro continued to be. Maybe J-man thought he could control Oro.

Shrooms · Nov 5, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
Maybe J-man thought he could control Oro.

It was part of his will though, as in, it would happen if he died

RandomOTP · Nov 5, 2021

Shrooms said:
It was part of his will though, as in, it would happen if he died

To be fair, wasn't it part of "let's get all the baddies to fight Pain?" And it being included in Jiraiya's Will was part of affirming that his deal with Orochimaru was kept no matter what?

And, to be fair to Jiraiya, he probably thought that he and Tsunade could wrangle some semblance of sanity out of Oro. Or maybe it was just the extreme of existential threats pushing Jiraiya to insane deeds?

Sir Stompy said:
Yeah I've been a vocal opponent of this for a while mostly because I thought Asuma would be slightly more useful than a pile of wet rags.

To be fair, Asuma's not exactly in an easy spot right now. He's doing the best with what he has (which is damned good, considering the state Leaf is in right now), but he's not an S-ranker, and Leaf has far too few jonin for a country their size.

Sir Stompy · Nov 5, 2021

Shrooms said:
It was part of his will though, as in, it would happen if he died

Good point. Welp if we survive long enough to rez him let's ask. Maybe that'll be enough guilt for a chakra pony

downzorz · Nov 5, 2021

If we had Tsunade/Naruto on overwatch for a voluntary examination, they could also be on standby to destroy our corpse (thoroughly enough to eliminate any useful data) if Oro has an "oops" moment and we die during treatment. If he gets no corpse to study then there's not much of an incentive to kill us on the operating table, and keeping us alive gives him future access our bloodline for study without the inconvenience of kidnapping another Kurosawa from Mist. Or at least the opportunity to quietly kidnap us later.

If we just have some Hokage-approved mednin/official on overwatch it wouldn't work- Uncle Oro would jounin at them until they fall over and walk out with our corpse. But trying to keep a body intact enough for research, against a fellow S-ranker at close range, is a different story.

Obviously this doesn't do anything to protect from straight up kidnapping, but unless I'm missing something it allows us to be useful to Snakey without exposing us to additional danger.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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