You're essentially proposing that the entire clan leave Leaf and go missing-nin. What about the unnamed Goketsu ninja who live on the Compound? What about those who aren't as mobile (such as Mai), or those who aren't combat-ready?

Packing our stuff up and leaving for Isan/front lines will only delay the threat of Orochimaru (war will end eventually, Orochimaru may be sent within traveling-distance of us).

Nah. I really meant go on a mission. And not the entire clan. The people you mentioned don't really matter here. They're safe. I want Mari, Kagome, Hazou, Kei, Noburi, and Akane to get position to go on a mission somewhere away from Orochimaru. It's a win-win for Asuma as he gets to not deal with Orochimaru and actually use his assets rather than lose them.

And yeah, delaying the Orochimaru threat is the goal. Until Goketsu gets some S-rank support.

Asuma isn't going to give us permission to go missing-nin. This is an option if we betray Leaf, but short of that .... no.

Well we don't really need his permission, but I was also actually asking for a mission. Like a legit mission to isan or Cloud, but with the core members of the Goketsu so they're safe and together.
 
Ok that was a very confusing chapter. Confusing parts:
First that Shika agreed that Oro having plausible deniability might actually matter to the Hokage.
Second that team Uplift + Shika waited until morning to contact the Hokage. Waking people up at late doesn't matter. Especially Ami wouldn't care.
Third:
There is no greater crime against the Will of Fire than to betray a comrade, or be complicit in the betrayal of a comrade. My father understood this.
makes the Hyuuga Minami killings confusing.

Fourth that Hazo and Shika were willing to let their personal interests affect Leaf strategy. Instead of just telling the truth they are afraid Oro will dissect Kei.
Fifth why Oro didn't just kill all his fans. His excuse that it would only encourage them more doesn't make sense. Sounds easier just to kill them.
6th that Asuma asked Kei/Hazo to deal with Oro individually. His excuse that Naruto/Tsunade stopping Oro as private individuals instead of as part of the Tower doesn't make sense. It won't affect Oro's cost/benefit analysis of whether to leave Leaf.

All this makes me want to dispel.

Now onto less confusing parts:
Tsunade hates me. She will certainly sacrifice me rather than risk severing her bond with her last remaining family.
This is probably Kei just being wrong

What Oro did to Mari is important insight into his psychology/morality. We know at least that while he was in a state of anger, he didn't kill or leave visible physical wounds on Mari. Dunno how helpful that info is though. Were there any other witnesses to their conversation? Could we use Yama mind readers if Mari doesn't want to say it? Or use Yama for therapy? Or Tsunade for therapy? Does the 7path have good mental health people? Given they can afford to have mental health people instead of everyone being combat.

We should mention that Kei is very important to Isan relations. Takahashi chose Leaf because Kei had influence over Leaf. Without Kei Isan might choose another nation.

Wants Kei to come to his compound in the morning
It is the afternoon of the same day. What do you do?
I assume the war meeting lasted from morning to afternoon. Oro knows Kei was at the war meeting, which is her excuse for not going to his compound in the morning. But we have no excuses for any more delays. Giving little time left to report to Oro's compound before he gets more pissed.

I personally don't want to push our luck...
We could ask Oro whether he will forcibly do anything against Kei's will. If he says yes then we can skip the money.
We can also check with someone besides Oro whether he ever admitted to the crimes of killing Leaf nin. And whether he ever lied about not killing Leaf nin. This helps us know whether Oro deigns to lie to people if it will benefit him.

@eaglejarl @Velorien
Can we spend a FP in the winning action plan so that we asked Ami and others for help during the evening, before the war meeting the next morning?
Also, since at least one chapter has passed I feel it reasonable to ask again.
"Okay," Hazō said. "Noburi, I'd like you to take a couple of Narutos—if that's okay with you, Naruto—and go track down Lady Tsunade—check the hospital, the Tower, wherever else you can thinnk of. We need to know about Orochimaru's personality, his history, and his motivations. What is he likely to do next? Is he actually a threat to us? Whatever she's willing to say."

Noburi grimaced. "I mean, I'll go, but I'm not sure she's even still in Leaf. She was talking about heading out to get back to work, and I haven't had a chance to check if she left yet."

"There might be other sources," Mari noted. "Kabuto was his apprentice and prime assistant. Anko worked with him for a bit, although I don't know the details. There are others around who were active before he went missing. I'll ask around."
Aside from Tsunade mentioning to not be interesting to Oro. Did Hazou ever receive any of this information? Especially considering Hazou angering Naruto into leaving, and the Collapse happened shortly aftewards. If not, would a Fate Point in the action plan be enough for Hazou to have reminded Team Uplift to do it and receive the info?
 
To be fair, Asuma's not exactly in an easy spot right now. He's doing the best with what he has (which is damned good, considering the state Leaf is in right now), but he's not an S-ranker, and Leaf has far too few jonin for a country their size.
I am not particularly inclined to be fair here. I realize the constraints, but at the very least Asuma could ask Naruto and Tsunade to help us out as private individuals. I'm fucking sick of our successes being minimized and our failures harped on by every single authority figure.

What have we done for Leaf in the past year? Oh right, 2 Summoning Scrolls, the Isan Alliance, the bison trade, the Summon network. Only to be dissected by Oro b/c Asuma can't figure something out? Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Fact is, we are owed protection and the fact that he can't provide it should sicken him.
 
If we had Tsunade/Naruto on overwatch for a voluntary examination, they could also be on standby to destroy our corpse (thoroughly enough to eliminate any useful data) if Oro has an "oops" moment and we die during treatment. If he gets no corpse to study then there's not much of an incentive to kill us on the operating table, and keeping us alive gives him future access our bloodline for study without the inconvenience of kidnapping another Kurosawa from Mist. Or at least the opportunity to quietly kidnap us later.

If we just have some Hokage-approved mednin/official on overwatch it wouldn't work- Uncle Oro would jounin at them until they fall over and walk out with our corpse. But trying to keep a body intact enough for research, against a fellow S-ranker at close range, is a different story.

Obviously this doesn't do anything to protect from straight up kidnapping, but unless I'm missing something it allows us to be useful to Snakey without exposing us to additional danger.
I just want to signal boost this @Shrooms @RandomOTP. I strongly prefer to see this implemented in any possible "examination" scene.
 
Here's a proposed modification to randomOTP's plan that gives Oro more reasons to keep us alive, instead of trying to force him. Adds 40 to the word count.

  • We will (conditionally) volunteer for live vivisection.
    • We must live with no permanent injury.
    • Orochimaru allows Tsunade and Naruto to attend.
    • Tsunade/Naruto commit to destroying our body immediately if we die, so no data can be gathered.
    • Orochimaru shares data with Hazou, but no other clans.
    • Orochimaru chooses a reversible or temporary biomodification that he needs field tested, and does it as part of the procedure
  • In return, we will...
    • Personally advocate the procedure.
      • The data would be useful for Orochimaru and recipient, and may entice more volunteers.
    • Share live data to Orochimaru during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward, for more data.
      • YSJ/Tsunade to endure consciousness?
    • Hazou will provide Orochimaru ongoing data on the chosen modification
 
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I just want to signal boost this @Shrooms @RandomOTP. I strongly prefer to see this implemented in any possible "examination" scene.
Here's a proposed modification to randomOTP's plan that gives Oro more reasons to keep us alive, instead of trying to force him:

  • We will (conditionally) volunteer for live vivisection.
    • We must live with no permanent injury.
    • Orochimaru allows Tsunade and Naruto to attend.
    • Tsunade/Naruto commit to destroying our body immediately if we die, so no data can be gathered.
    • Orochimaru shares data with Hazou, but no other clans.
    • Orochimaru chooses a reversible or temporary biomodification that he needs field tested, and does it as part of the procedure
  • In return, we will...
    • Personally advocate the procedure.
      • The data would be useful for Orochimaru and recipient, and may entice more volunteers.
    • Share live data to Orochimaru during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward, for more data.
      • YSJ/Tsunade to endure consciousness?
    • Hazou will provide Orochimaru ongoing data on the chosen modification
I added the body destruction thing. Less keen on the bio modification tbh.
 
Another confusing thing about the Third kicking Oro for killing Leaf nin. Is the rumors of Tsunade killing leaf nin for interfering with her patients. Maybe the rumors are false?
 
@roobee Sorry, your question fell through the cracks before. I've added it to the QM QUINOA and will discuss it with @Velorien tomorrow.

Before widespread anesthesia there was an extreme focus on speed in surgical procedures because shock would literally kill the patients. Read about Robert Liston, the only surgeon who ever managed a 300% fatality rate for a single procedure.
How does that work? The patient died, was resuscitated, and died again?

As in numbing pain without interrupting consciousness? [...]

Edit: Modern medicine can do this, but it's kind of a pain in the ass
By definition, it isn't. :>

Can we spend a FP in the winning action plan so that we asked Ami and others for help during the evening, before the war meeting the next morning?
Noted, will get back to you at a more reasonable UK time.
 
I have no desire to see any body modification implemented at this time.

Edited: Hmmm, ok. I'm personally interested in the idea (I was thinking more transhumanism storytelling than body modification storytelling, but that's probably not how Oro would think).

It looks like most people are pretty against it as a plan though, so nvm

In general, this seems like a contentious topic, so I'm not going to push either way on it. I think my earlier comment covers my thoughts if anyone's curious.
 
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I just want to signal boost this @Shrooms @RandomOTP. I strongly prefer to see this implemented in any possible "examination" scene.

Here's a proposed modification to randomOTP's plan that gives Oro more reasons to keep us alive, instead of trying to force him. Adds 40 to the word count.
Added the section about destroying our body. I'm not comfortable adding the biosealing experimentation. I have enough body dysmorphia irl that I'm not comfortable reading about the body dysmorphia inherent in that [edit: inherent within biosealing tentacles, third arms, hidden blades, toxic blood, or any other organs that should/shouldn't be there, and thus feel out of place].

How does that work? The patient died, was resuscitated, and died again?

IIRC, he sawed off a patient's leg (civil war era) so quickly he also sawed off his own fingers. He and the patient died of infection/bloodloss respectively (I think) and an attending nurse had a heart attack/died of shock.
 
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Another confusing thing about the Third kicking Oro for killing Leaf nin. Is the rumors of Tsunade killing leaf nin for interfering with her patients. Maybe the rumors are false?

Tsunade supposedly kills people who interfere with her life-saving medical work, which has the potential to kill or cripple other Leaf citizens/ninja. This is predictable- don't mess with her work and she won't kill you- so a Leaf nin getting Death by Tsunade could have easily avoided that by not messing with her work. Oro on the other hand kidnaps/kills people that are interesting to him, or anyone on hand if he needs test subjects (also probably has a lot more Leaf bodies than Tsunade). Tsunade is therefore only a threat to a small subset of very stupid/arrogant people, while Oro is dangerous to everyone around him even when unprovoked.
 
"I suppose it would be ungracious of me to show everyone the door when the party is going so well. And I suppose I owe the Gōketsu something for stocking the pantry." He pursed his lips, thinking for a moment, then turned back to Hazō and nodded. "All right. I suppose you lot can stay in one of the guest houses until Thursday. Do you intend to find your own accommodations in the city or should we step into my office and discuss rent?"
Orochimaru believed he owes us a favor. And was willing to offer housing until Thursday to repay it. Since we never took that offer, we could try getting something similarly small in exchange.

Hmmm, ok. I'm personally interested in the idea, but it looks like most people aren't so I'll drop it.
I'm interested in any ideas/suggestions you have about body modification. Not everyone who agrees with you will mention it.
edit: And i think i recall other people mentioning they were interested in the topic before.
 
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[x] Action Plan: we don't have to be dissected if there is someone to do it for us.
Word Count: 282
  • Clan Meeting
    • Akane sends Shadow Clones to find Ino, Shikamaru, and Ami. Summon Snowflake.
    • Summarize Situation, Present Plans.
      • Potential lie: claim Snowflake is an experiment regarding directed personality drift, and Mari wasn't informed.
        • We have the (fabricated) experiment logs to prove it
      • Alternatively: tell the truth, Snowflake is an unexpected interaction between a Thinker's bloodline and SC.
        • is this too much of a liability compared to him opening her up and finding out either way?
        • could we point him towards cloud or rock's clans instead of Mori or Nara?
        • or make him understand that is a dead-end for him?
      • if we fail to divert him, Hazou will (conditionally) volunteer for live vivisection.
        • We must live with no permanent injury.
        • Orochimaru allows Tsunade and or Naruto to attend.
        • Orochimaru shares data with Hazou exclusively.
        • In return, we will...
          • Share live data to Orochimaru during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward, for more data.
            • YSJ/Tsunade to endure consciousness?
        • Sent a note of thank you to Hinata.
        • Write a will.
          • Dog Scroll to Akane,
          • Clan Head to Noburi.
          • Resurrection Notes to Kagome.
          • Don't fall apart without me --in either sense.
          • Thank you.
      • Naruto and tsunade (not necessarily simultaneously) (Sanity- checked and performed by whoever is more likely to succeed)
        • Explain the Orochimaru crisis, and the plan
        • ask them to intervene in order to prevent the inevitable mayhem that will fall upon leaf after Orochimaru starts killing clan heads and consorts, especially in wartime.
        • name their price
        • Naruto: you should know why we don't want to be experimented on.
        • if vivisection route: ask them to oversee the procedure.
        • If not us, help Kei. Hazou's sacrifice only gives her time, not solve the issue.
 
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I added the body destruction thing. Less keen on the bio modification tbh.
Biomodification sounds like something I'd be okay with if it helped our bargaining position. We don't need to get cool biotech out of this. We don't need to get anything out of this. People are talking about asking Orochimaru to pay us and I'm here wondering if we should offer to pay him for his time.

Our first, second, and third goal here is to survive the encounter, and if we're not sure the deal is sweet enough we should keep making it sweeter. If he wants to field test some biotech on us, I'd be okay with that. If he doesn't, don't ask for it. If he wants live feedback and cooperation in the experiments, offer it. If he wants us unconscious the whole way through, go ahead. The sticking points are the continued existence of Goketsu Hazou sufficient for him to continue actualizing his full potential, and OPSEC on clan secrets. Pretty much anything else should be on the table if it needs to be.
 
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How does that work? The patient died, was resuscitated, and died again?
IIRC, he sawed off a patient's leg (civil war era) so quickly he also sawed off his own fingers. He and the patient died of infection/bloodloss respectively (I think) and an attending nurse had a heart attack/died of shock.
As ROTP puts it, but it was an assistant who died of sepsis, not the man himself. And since they used to do the operations in a literal theater rather than a nurse it was one of the spectators who had a heart attack and died. This is probably an apocryphal story FYI, but it should give a sense of the mood in pre-anesthesia surgery. He was described as "the fastest knife in the West End. He could amputate a leg in 2.5 minutes" and used go around shouting 'Time me gentlemen, time me!' in surgery.
 
Oro has enough goodies that it might be worth risking kei dying to see if we can get some.
edit: we can probably convince oro to help with the great seal. but oro's promise to help with the great seal could be one thing worth risking kei's life for
 
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By definition, it isn't. :>
Ha. Ha. Ha.
Oro has enough goodies that it might be worth risking kei dying to see if we can get some.
edit: we can probably convince oro to help with the great seal. but oro's promise to help with the great seal could be one thing worth risking kei's life for
Let me be clear, I will not vote for anything like this and I will advocate against it. I would literally rather get Hazou killed and have the quest end than do this.
 
But seriously why make a plan to volunteer to be cut open and probably die rather than just...leave the Leaf?
Simple. You think it's 'and probably die' and I think it's 'probably not die'. Meanwhile, you think going missing is 'probably not die' while I think it's 'probably die' (we are the exact wrong sort of ninja to go missing: extremely high value (we know oodles of state secrets, skywalkers/skytowers, and shadow clone), low personal strength. We're not just some loose ends for Captain Zabuza to hunt down, if we went to one of Leaf's enemies we could ruin Leaf, and we're not strong enough to take all comers)

We're both here trying to minimize the chances of a bad end, we just have different expectations of what options are likely to lead to a bad end.

edit: sorry, I just remembered you clarified earlier about wanting a long-term mission somewhere else. I think that's a potentially workable idea. I think the only variant of it that works for our purposes is a long-term posting at the Rift Scar so we can lighthouse on the afterlife problem, which if it works out we can return to Leaf only when we have Hashirama and Jiraiya at our side to stop Orochimaru from doing whatever he wants. However, whether our request would actually be accepted is another matter. We'd be essentially taking ourselves out of the war effort at a time when Hazou and Kei are providing valuable strategic ideas for Leaf in pursuit of a payout that won't happen before WWIV concludes. Letting us die wastes all that potential too but if regulated vivisection is likely to produce the best of both worlds I don't think Asuma would be very keen on giving up all that war-effort-value. Personally I've always been a proponent of voluntary vivsection (heck, I might've been the one to first propose it) because I'm pretty confident that it'll work and be the safest, least destructive way to stop living in fear of Orochimaru, but pushing for a long-term mission to O'Uzu is a solid runner-up option in my books.
 
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