Wait a moment.








HE KNOWS.
HAZOU: *bursts into Oro's lab* "SNUNCLE RUN YOU HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE"
ORO: "Did you just call me- WHAT IN THE SAGE IS THAT?!"
HAZOU: "Oh Jashin it's here!!"
???: "FREE AT LAST!"

Narrator: As hosts went, Orochimaru turned out to be much more useful than the cage that was the clan of boring, uncreative Thinkers
 
On the topic of swords of damocles, what else is hanging over our heads? The Scrip crisis was another extremely preventable situation that could've resulted in Hazou's death. "I judge you guilty of economic sabotage, goodbye." People were pitching ideas and pointing out the risk but nothing was ultimately done. I'll even admit I argued that hazou already pointed out the risk to Mari so she surely was taking it seriously, but it turned out to not really be true. Stuff with consequences that high that are directly aimed back at us need countermeasures even if we're reasonably certain nothing bad will actually come of it.
Snowflake's crush.
 
Is Hazou-pilot making a supremely bad decision and leaving us with the aftermath a predictable failure mode for this situation? I don't think so. I can't recall another instance of it happening before this. The bad decisions are almost always voted in.
It's not unknown. Off the top of my head, there's the orgy-that-nearly-was.
 
I don't think anybody in the hivemind will ever make as inaccurate a prediction as @eaglejarl and I did when we first thought about how this quest was going to go.

I would love to see this as an interlude!

Is there anything else that we can apply this lesson to? Something that we're currently sitting on that we probably know the right answer already but just haven't gone and taken it?

There was that recent discussion about the lore update we just got, and how we need to spend more time investigating deep lore (which I pulled everyone away from, sorry)
 
Hmm... MfD rules dictate that I must answer with bullet points.
  • Wrote a really amazing story:
    • Every aspect of the worldbuilding seems to have incredibly well thought out.
      • The setting itself is fascinating -- I don't know how much of this is skilled authorship versus skilled worldbuilding, but the setting of MfD has definitely influenced every game I GM, every story I write, and just the way I think about worldbuilding, conflict, stable states, and dozens of other things.
      • Despite the occasional stunning revelation, the process of learning about the setting feels very organic and simulationist, slowly piecing together information until we come to an uncertain, yet logical conclusion.
      • The Deep Lore is well hidden yet internally consistent, inspiring rabid factions.
    • The characterization both has immense depth and is almost-pathologically gripping.
      • As evidenced by all the recent debates about characters.
      • Or perhaps by the various character analyses that are regularly created.
    • Inspires incredible amounts of attention.
      • At a guess, with ~20 regulars, each of which spends ~2 hours reading updates, ~5 hours engaging with the community, and a comparable amount of time passively thinking about situations outside of that per week, the quest creates about ~240 hours of highly-engaged time per week.
  • Did so for now nearly six years
    • With bi-weekly updates, that amounts to ~612 updates. Checking the Threadmarks, we see 642 total updates.
      • The QMs never miss an update in expectation
      • They also somehow produce extra content from the void.
    • In addition, continued to stay engaged with the community in various ways, despite the long-running nature of the project.
  • Somehow, did all that for free.
    • This is perhaps the most surprising to me, as the QMs' prose reveals them both as very talented writers with clever wordplay and an ability to draw drama and tension from any situation.
Actually, I'm getting long-winded, so scratch all that. I'm sure it was just dumb luck, EJ.
Well now I'm blushing. See what you did?! I'm blushing like a stinking schoolgirl!

So embarrassing. Hrmph. (Thank you! :>)

I would love to see this as an interlude!
There was an image that went around, maybe here and maybe on Discord, that showed two images side by side. One was a young boy saying "A Naruto quest? Cool! Let's go punch some bad dudes!" On the other side was a bunch of office workers gathered around a spreadsheet saying things like "Have we accounted for compound interest on the rice farm? What about the sewage projections?"

If I could find that I would threadmark it because it basically sums up our expectations versus the reality.
 
"If you have any solutions of your own, I am prepared to be flexible. As long as you don't make me choose between you and Orochimaru, and as long as you don't do anything so stupid that I have to execute you myself, and as long as you talk to me before any Gōketsu-brand shenanigans, there may be room to prioritise the spirit of the law over the letter."

Speaking of things we can improve upon, we need to have a long talk with Asuma about what he expects from us in general (as one of his subordinates, as a clan head, and ideally as a friend) and specifically regarding our complicated relationship with Orochimaru. How far can we go to protect ourselves during and after the war? If we change the balance of power in our favor do we receive carte blanche to do to Oro as we desire?

I'm sure there are more questions we need to ask him, so we should do as tradition dictates and make a list for when we can speak privately with him again.

Any number of 'Wow, I can't believe you need to have this spelled out' moments are preferable to getting kill-boxed ever again. We have mainly got in trouble (IIRC) due to our gallivanting off without specifying to Asuma what we were about to do, such as when we intentionally sought to talk to Itachi without Tower authorization. However, when we have worked with Asuma we were able to win the interclan competition and we received the Dog scroll as well as other miscellaneous rewards.
 
There was an image that went around, maybe here and maybe on Discord, that showed two images side by side. One was a young boy saying "A Naruto quest? Cool! Let's go punch some bad dudes!" On the other side was a bunch of office workers gathered around a spreadsheet saying things like "Have we accounted for compound interest on the rice farm? What about the sewage projections?"

If I could find that I would threadmark it because it basically sums up our expectations versus the reality.
You know, it's kind of funny how our most profitable ventures were arms dealing to Nazis and an eugenics program.
It says a lot about the world. Both this and the real one.
 
Gathering info on Oro is important. How can we do that?
Check our previous sources again. Maybe with a different strategy
Check New sources. maybe nara? definitely asuma. him throwing us to oro could make him more inclined to provide info on Oro.
Ask Oro himself. We could just ask him if he is gonna dissect people.
 
-Mari killing that Leaf patrol way back when
-Cold Stone Killers resulting in Hot Springs joining in with Cloud/breaking with Mist
-Mayor Emiya giving up on waiting for Mari's apology
-Us being the ones who nabbed Arikada
-Pangolin/Condor War
-Dragonwar
-Yakuza retaliation
-Mochiaki's revenge

I'm sure there are more.
Naw. Absolutely nothing to worry about on that front.
At least, Hazō decided, with this the Fu Kōhei incident was resolved and would never come back to trouble him again.
:) :)
 
Actually, I think "use EM to make ice, wait for the ice to cool the air, use EM to lower it further" works. Obviously, physics won't let you go lower than the freezing point of the ice.
Can anyone explain to me why the physics don't let you go below ice? The only idea i have is that freezing water takes a lot more energy than lowering its temperature. But i don't know how to complete the thought.
 
Can anyone explain to me why the physics don't let you go below ice? The only idea i have is that freezing water takes a lot more energy than lowering its temperature. But i don't know how to complete the thought.
Elemental Mastery has a limitation in that it doesn't stack: You can't cast the technique to bring down the temperature...say, 100C, and then recast it again to bring it down another 100C. But if you cast it to 0C (the freezing point of water) to make ice, and then take the ice and put it somewhere else (not being affected by EM), the ice will cool down the area to lower than what it would be normally. You can then 'cheat' the system by casting EM to reduce the (already reduced) temperature down below what your skill level would allow you to.

And you can't bring the temperature lower than the freezing point of the ice since that is the lowest temperature you are bringing over.
 
We voted to give Oro it in two different winning action plans.
Hand him Jiraiya's sealed letter.
Give him the package Jiraiya left for him.
But both times Hazou didn't do it in the chapter.

Some people mentioned we sent it to the snakes via 7path. But I don't remember ever seeing a direct quote on that. So I'm hesitated to trust that statement.

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And you can't bring the temperature lower than the freezing point of the ice since that is the lowest temperature you are bringing over.
Why can't you cool the ice to below 0 degrees C?
 
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Why do plans keep including apologies? It feels like the some fundamental aspect of planning is fundamentally screwed up if we keep creating situations where an apology is the appropriate reaction.
 
Why can't you cool the ice to below 0 degrees C?
I suspect one of our physics majors will jump in and talk about supercooling or some edge case that I'm not aware of, but the basic case is that the temperature of a given area equalizes over time. To use an analogy that doesn't quite work but makes the point: Imagine you're averaging test scores together, and there's one test that you didn't show up for so you got a 0. It's going to bring your average down but not to below 0. Same with the ice -- it's going to bring the temperature down but not to below its own temperature.

A more exact answer: Temperature is simply the average kinetic motion of the molecules in a given volume. You have a 20C box and you put a 0C block of ice in it. The molecules in the air are moving at a particular average rate, the molecules in the ice are moving at a particular (much slower) rate. Over time the comparatively fast-moving molecules in the air hit the ice and transfer energy into it, warming it up and causing it to melt. After a while all the molecules have interacted and everything has reached a stable average point. That point will be lower than the original temperature of the air but higher than the original temperature of the ice, because the molecular kinetic energy evened out.

(Also, some of the kinetic energy got spent inducing a phase change from water to ice but that's not the key part here.)

*shrugs* I'm not a physics major, I dunno. I'm just parroting eaglejarl who is smarter than me.
I very much doubt that, but I appreciate the compliment.
 
Why do plans keep including apologies? It feels like the some fundamental aspect of planning is fundamentally screwed up if we keep creating situations where an apology is the appropriate reaction.
[If you're referring to the acknowledgement of imperfect plans], Back during Isan, Hazou produced an unoptimized plan that Kei felt Hazou-pilot should have caught (which is arguable in either direction, but that's a separate topic). This led to Kei immediately drawing severe and drastic conclusions about Hazou's state of mind and lack of care regarding his family's well-being, storming out. This event had notable narrative consequences, one of which is that Hazou-pilot now feels a certain amount trepidation and anxiety regarding sanity-checks with Kei.

Both then and now, the characters involved were placed under immense emotional stress. The preemptive acknowledgement of "these are unrefined, off-the-cuff ideas that may or may not be viable" allows Hazou's interlocutors to prepare themselves accordingly.

Regarding apologies, in this specific instance, the potential Hazou-apology-to-Naruto has already occured. However, my model of Hazou's feelings regarding Naruto are "frustration at Naruto, frustration at himself, and regret over the situation." If Hazou-the-character is about to die (as may be the case) then it's simulationist for him to apologize "one more time," as a sort of "if these are to be my last words to you, then let it be this..."

Perhaps there's a solution for preventing Hazou's missteps, but [past missteps are why] we [now] implement the "sanity check with..." line in the majority of our action plans. Because we-the-hivemind don't have cultural context within the EN, and Hazou-the-character is a teenager who grew up as a clanless kid in a foreign nation.
 
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Same with the ice -- it's going to bring the temperature down but not to below its own temperature.
I mean why can't you have air at 0C. EM cool it to below 0C. use it to cool the ice to below 0. And then use the ice to cool the air below 0 C after the EM wears off. ?

I envision it as. Start with room temperature water and air. EM Cool the air. Air cools the water. Store the water. Air returns to normal. Unseal the water. water cools the air. EM cool the air to lower then before. Air cools the water to lower than before. Repeat until you get water and air at 0C.
EM cool the air below 0C. air starts freezing water into ice. repeat earlier procedure until all water is ice. you have ice and air at 0C.
EM cool the air below 0C. air cools ice below 0C. repeat earlier procedure to get arbitrary cold air and ice.
 
I mean why can't you have air at 0C. EM cool it to below 0C. use it to cool the ice to below 0. And then use the ice to cool the air below 0 C after the EM wears off. ?

I envision it as. Start with room temperature water and air. EM Cool the air. Air cools the water. Store the water. Air returns to normal. Unseal the water. water cools the air. EM cool the air to lower then before. Air cools the water to lower than before. Repeat until you get water and air at 0C.
EM cool the air below 0C. air starts freezing water into ice. repeat earlier procedure until all water is ice. you have ice and air at 0C.
EM cool the air below 0C. air cools ice below 0C. repeat earlier procedure to get arbitrary cold air and ice.
Hazō has not tried this experiment but you're welcome to get it in a plan.
 
Refuse to Lose Family
  • Kei, Snowflake, Crystal, Winterlight, Scalpel, Prism, Constellation, Spiral, Moonlight, Soar, Kitten, Whisper, Prayer, Kiss, and those-yet-unnamed.
I'm still pretty sure that the various Shadow Clone names of Kei are not long term individual people any more than, say, Naruto's clones are. Kei and her Shadow Clones have a diverging mindset and memory but the Shadow Clones between each other do not. All in all we could win 14+ words here.
 
Why do plans keep including apologies? It feels like the some fundamental aspect of planning is fundamentally screwed up if we keep creating situations where an apology is the appropriate reaction.
Personal opinion of why we apologize often largely stems from the fact that the playerbase is incredibly nice. As a general rule everyone here if very considerate and wants to make sure that they aren't accidentally giving offense or misinterpreting other people's arguments. This trickles down to our play style. Add on the fact that by and large the fact that in most cases we are conflict adverse. This leads us to being overly cautious in social situations in an attempt to avoid any friction long term between Hazou and the people he interacts with. Thus lots of preemptive apologies and taking blame that we might deserve.

My personal thoughts on the matter is that as a general rule we are far too deferential and apologetic in most of our social interactions. All of our biggest social success have come from times when we are more aggressive and less considerate.
 
I'm still pretty sure that the various Shadow Clone names of Kei are not long term individual people any more than, say, Naruto's clones are. Kei and her Shadow Clones have a diverging mindset and memory but the Shadow Clones between each other do not. All in all we could win 14+ words here.
I disagree. Crystal, Winterlight, and Scalpel are all vastly different from each other, and vastly different from Snowflake. Snowflake's character has merely had the most screentime to develop/grow --but (as I understand it) they're all independent people, merely beginning as a "fork" of Kei.

If I'm wrong, then the fact that Hazou recalls these names (mentioned once, during Snowflake's first Summon) still reveals an extreme amount of care on his part. It proves that he cares about Kei, and that he cares about Snowflake and the other Kei-conjoined clonesisters (something that Snowflake has expressed insecurity about in the past).

But, honestly, I just hope that it will prove to be a wholesome family moment in the midst of the frantic insanity that have been the last few chapters. A breath of fresh air, a moment of reprieve, before things get insane again.
 
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Let's start to be proactive about how we can go ahead and win WW IV. We are in a bad spot franky because Asuma decided to be an idiot and ignore us when we gave him a way to win the war. Luckily his short sighted objections no longer matter since Cloud joined. We need to actively work on recruiting Mist to join the war. The Goketsu are uniquely suited to the task due to our connections. I purpose that we try to convince Asuma to offer Mist the Nine-tails. Once we secured there cooperation we can launch a full summon army to crush Rock. It would def be helpful if we could get Mist and Sand to deploy some of their forces to harass Cloud as we crush them. An additional card we can potentially play to convince Mist to join is to have Hazou marry a Kurosawa nin. If anyone else has ideas would love to here them
 
Let's start to be proactive about how we can go ahead and win WW IV. We are in a bad spot franky because Asuma decided to be an idiot and ignore us when we gave him a way to win the war. Luckily his short sighted objections no longer matter since Cloud joined. We need to actively work on recruiting Mist to join the war. The Goketsu are uniquely suited to the task due to our connections. I purpose that we try to convince Asuma to offer Mist the Nine-tails. Once we secured there cooperation we can launch a full summon army to crush Rock. It would def be helpful if we could get Mist and Sand to deploy some of their forces to harass Cloud as we crush them. An additional card we can potentially play to convince Mist to join is to have Hazou marry a Kurosawa nin. If anyone else has ideas would love to here them
I doubt that Asuma would be willing to give away Leaf's Tailed Beast (Leaf's military might is simply too crippled for that right now). I'd also rather not have Hazou marry a random, unknown NPC for Military Power (Mari rule number 61: all power is interchangeable).

To propose an alternative: Hazou is Hana's biological firstborn son, and Hana is the Mizukage's sister. IIRC, after Asuma gave his approval, Hazou's been writing letters to Hana offscreen. Maybe we could leverage that point of connection to try and sway Mist to join Leaf? We'd need Asuma's approval (provided we don't die in the next few chapters, of course), but I think he'd be willing to approve them (given proper vetting).

Then again, Ami is leaving within the next day or so to persuade the Mizukage to side with Leaf... Ami might leverage Hana's connection to Hazou (and also the power of the AMI) to help sway things.
 
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