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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@Velorien / @eaglejarl - there's been some confusion here, can we get confirmation on what exactly our scrip physically was?
Paper or wood, printed and/or painted, and seal or no seal, I think, are the outstanding questions, of which I expect none other than the seal question is really important.
 
Eisenhelm said:
Is a shadow clone conjured by an earth clone also an earth clone?
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No. It is a shadow clone of the earth clone (i.e. a shadow clone that has the earth clone's stats and intelligence).

Eisenhelm said:
truth is we have no idea what the scrip is, it originally was wood whit a character on it. but we put those two to find out what papper they were made of and they complied. it's a fuster cluck.
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Scrip is made of wood. There will soon never have been any indications to the contrary.

@faflec, are there any other such errors that need fixing?

Relatedly, please have an overdue MfD Loremaster bonus to the tune of 20 XP.
 
Velorien said:
No. It is a shadow clone of the earth clone (i.e. a shadow clone that has the earth clone's stats and intelligence).
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Hm. I can't remember the mechanics and am viewing from phone, so can someone remind me whether Earth Clones have their own chakra pool and whether they are less chakra intensive than Shadow clones?
 
Credit to @faflec for the links and the Isan portion of the plan.

Vote for this plan if you want to explore the idea that the Hyuga weren't involved (even if only as a way to reframe the investigation) and if you want to make a serious attempt at showing Haru that we are serious in that we respect him.

Or if you think that teaching Haru CCnJ would be funny.

[X] Action Plan: Taking Haru Seriously
Word count: 299
  • Isan team:
    • Clear chakra monsters, find allies among Isan's outcasts, as previously discussed.
      • Ask Yuno, Takahashi who to approach.
    • Ask Takahashi about the Yoshida/their clan head; if he thinks it's wise, request a meeting.
    • Have meetings/clear monsters while aligning the timelines.
  • Bank run investigation:
    • Request a thorough, in-person status update on the investigation. Listen carefully.
    • The Hagomoro are clearly involved. How'd they get all that scrip without buying any from us?
      • Forgery?
        • Does the quantity of scrip collected match the quantity issued?
          • If not, is the difference approximately the amount the Hagomoro spent?
        • How easily forged is scrip? Could the Hagomoro have done so?
      • Hyuga mass-purchased scrip for the Hagoromo to spend?
        • Potential motives: low-risk financial opportunity, alliance with another conservative clan.
        • Does the amount of scrip the Hyuga bought match what the Hagoromo spent?
        • Do the Hyuga still have their scrip? (If so, can we ask Asuma to have them turn it over?)
        • Are the Hyuga also spreading rumours?
      • Other theories?
    • Other questions:
      • Which businesses stopped accepting scrip - any commonalities?
      • Prominent figures in the bank run crowd? Insisted on ryo, agitated the crowd, too loud/conspicuously quiet?
        • Look at clan, social links, industry ties, and geographic patterns for businesses and people.
      • How did the merchants that sold to the Hagoromo use their scrip?
      • Are there Tower records of scrip collection?
      • Update on the Amori?
      • Other leads/sources?
  • Haru:
    • Tone: serious, grateful, respectful. Explain and use CCnJ with Akane's help.
    • You're doing outstanding work vital to Goketsu's survival.
    • Once this is over, we wish to recognize this in a way you find meaningful.
      • We don't know you well enough to simply give you something. (We'd like to change that over time.)
      • What would help you achieve your goals?
    • Please take some time to think about it.
Word count: 295
  • Isan team:
    • Clear chakra monsters, find allies among Isan's outcasts, as previously discussed.
      • Ask Yuno, Takahashi who to approach.
      • Ask Takahashi about the Yoshida/their clan head; if he thinks it's wise, request a meeting.
  • Bank run investigation:
    • Request a thorough, in-person update on the status of the investigation. Listen carefully.
    • Obviously the Hagomoro are somehow involved. How'd they get all that scrip without buying any from us?
      • Forgery?
        • Does the quantity of scrip collected match the quantity issued?
          • If not, is the difference approximately the amount the Hags spent?
        • How easily forged is scrip?
      • Alternatively, the Hyuga's bulk purchase of scrip may have been to give/loan to the Hagomoro, who then spent it.
        • Motive: low-risk financial opportunity, alliance with another conservative clan?
        • How much scrip did the Hyuga buy? Similar to the amount the Hagomoro spent?
        • Do the Hyuga still have their scrip? (Can we ask Asuma to have them turn it over if so?)
        • Have the Hyuga also been spreading rumours?
    • Other questions:
      • Which businesses stopped accepting scrip suddenly? Who demanded ryo for scrip during the bank run? Who agitated/instigated/was loud in the crowd? Any patterns there? (Geographic, alliances, industries.)
      • What did the merchants that sold to the Hagoromo do with their scrip?
  • Haru:
    • Introduce CCnJ. Have Akane help.
    • Tone: serious, grateful, respectful.
    • CCnJ:
      • This is outstanding work, and vital to Goketsu's survival.
      • Secondary only to international diplomacy/the literal apocalypse.
      • We wish to recognize this in a way you find meaningful.
      • Can we reward you? Explicitly encouragement to ask for the moon.
        • Example: chakra metal would be reasonable. Would take time, but we'd commit/prioritize.
        • Training, jutsu? (We'll pay for/find teachers.) Status? Money? Projects you want to pursue?
        • More independence?
        • Think on it - this is an open offer.
Word Count: 299
  • Isan team:
    • Clear chakra monsters, find allies among Isan's outcasts, as previously outlined.
      • Ask Yuno, Takahashi who to approach.
      • Ask Takahashi about the Yoshida/their clan head; if he thinks it's wise, request a meeting.
  • Bank run investigation:
    • Request a thorough, in-person update on the status of the investigation. Listen carefully.
    • Obviously the Hagomoro are somehow involved. But how did they get all that scrip without buying any from us?
      • Forgery?
        • Does the quantity of scrip collected match the quantity issued?
          • If not, is the difference similar to the amount spent by the Hags?
        • How easy would it have been to forge scrip?
      • Alternately, the Hyuga may have bulk-purchased scrip to give/loan to the Hagomoro, who then spent it.
        • Motive: low-risk financial opportunity, alliance with another conservative clan?
        • Do the Hyuga still have their scrip? (Can we ask Asuma to have them turn it over if they do?)
        • Have the Hyuga also been spreading rumours?
    • Other questions:
      • Which businesses stopped accepting scrip suddenly? Are there any links/ties? (Geographical, industry, alliances.)
      • What did the merchants that sold to the Hagoromo do with their scrip?
      • Who insisted on ryo for their scrip during the bank run? Who was a loud agitator? What do they have in common?
  • Haru:
    • Introduce CCnJ. Have Akane help.
    • CCnJ:
      • You have done outstanding work. This is vital to Goketsu's survival, secondary only to international diplomacy/the literal apocalypse.
      • We wish to recognize this in a way you find meaningful.
      • Do you have requests? We are explicitly encouraging you to ask for the moon.
        • Example: chakra metal would not be an unreasonable ask.
          • Might take time, but we'd prioritize it.
        • Training, jutsu? (We'll pay for/find teachers.)
        • Status? Money?
        • Projects you want to pursue?
        • More independence?
        • Think on it - this is an open offer.
TarzanNn said:
Hm. I can't remember the mechanics and am viewing from phone, so can someone remind me whether Earth Clones have their own chakra pool and whether they are less chakra intensive than Shadow clones?
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ECs have the chakra given to them and they cost far less chakra than SCs. This document lists all the known jutsu/related rules.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Taking Haru Seriously

TarzanNn said:
So, the use of EC's SCs as anti-genjutsu shield is only viable for someone like Naruto.
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Why would this be more useful than simply casting more earth clones? If you do the nested casting, you have a shadow clone of the earth clone. It's as dumb as an earth clone is, but possibly not even as durable, on top of costing more chakra.
 
Shrooms said:
Why would this be more useful than simply casting more earth clones? If you do the nested casting, you have a shadow clone of the earth clone. It's as dumb as an earth clone is, but possibly not even as durable, on top of costing more chakra.
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Yeah, my bad. Somehow my sleep-deprived brain decided to stick with the idea no matter what(
 
[X] Action Plan: Taking Haru Seriously

I'll add detailed thoughts later, but overall good plan. Would like to figure out if we can make the Haru section a little less...condescending? I sorta get the feeling he will feel that way, I dunno.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Isan team:
  • Clear chakra monsters, find allies among Isan's outcasts, as previously outlined.
    • Ask Yuno, Takahashi who to approach.
    • Ask Takahashi about the Yoshida/their clan head; if he thinks it's wise, request a meeting.
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I don't think nested plans are allowed. This is an entire update on its own, if you want to offscreen this part, I think you need to make that clear. It's not clear right now IMO
 
Sir Stompy said:
I don't think nested plans are allowed. This is an entire update on its own, if you want to offscreen this part, I think you need to make that clear. It's not clear right now IMO
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I have been under the impression that nested plans didn't really give any detail in the actual plan, whereas this actually says what to do and adds a link to the update to reference the discussion made earlier?

I mean, it's not as if the previous plan was all that detailed, either, this plan is about as detailed for that stuff and even moreso for the new things.
 
faflec said:
I'll add detailed thoughts later, but overall good plan. Would like to figure out if we can make the Haru section a little less...condescending? I sorta get the feeling he will feel that way, I dunno.
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I'm trying to guard against that as best I can. I'm hoping that CCnJ will do a lot of the heavy lifting. I also think it's important to be cognizant of the fact that we have to meet him where he is (he has strong feelings on clan heads in general).

I thought about saying 'we do not wish to be condescending'. Maybe a 'tone: serious, earnest, genuinely grateful' would help.

I've added an explicit reference to the tone. The word 'respectful' is used. If he objects to a serious, grateful, respectful attempt to not simply reward him but respect his agency by asking what a meaningful reward for the work he's done on a project critical to our survival as a clan would be, then I think that's on his head. However, I'm open to rewording/reworking.

Also, the plan is largely your plan/my modifications to your plan; if you'd like to absorb it let me know.
Sir Stompy said:
I don't think nested plans are allowed. This is an entire update on its own, if you want to offscreen this part, I think you need to make that clear. It's not clear right now IMO
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faflec said:
I have been under the impression that nested plans didn't really give any detail in the actual plan, whereas this actually says what to do and adds a link to the update to reference the discussion made earlier?

I mean, it's not as if the previous plan was all that detailed, either, this plan is about as detailed for that stuff and even moreso for the new things.
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'Continue as previously discussed' doesn't seem like a nested plan. I assume that there's persistence of intention, especially with the Isan team. My expectation would be that I could remove that line entirely and things would still happen. Given that it doesn't link to a plan, but an update, I think it's kosher. Hopefully a QM can weigh in.

If/when I go through and pare some words down, I might try to be explicit about what is offscreen/potentially offscreen.

My intention (open to change) with the plan is two scenes: Keiko talking with Yuno/Takahashi/maybe the rest of the Isan team, and then Akane/Hazo/Haru. The background chakra-beast-clearing work will hopefully go a ways towards aligning the timelines. Did you intend otherwise in yours, @faflec?

Explicitly stating 'meet with outsiders' might help with that/give the Isan team work to do, to bring us to parity...again, I'm open to rephrasings.
 
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Black King said:
I thought it was wood with paint and a seal on it.
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A seal, not a Seal.

Aka just a mundane printing of the clan emblem. Actual tiny seals draw on the scrip would be uneconomical to produce, due to the high value of sealmaster time.

Basically the scrip was pieces of painted wood with a stamp on it. Problem is basically anyone with decent calligraphy could probably fake such a stamp well enough to fool most people.

In the real world we use a bunch of things to keep money from being easy to fake - very specific and secret or hard to replicate blends of material. Layers dyes, hidden symbols only visible under certain conditions. A number that identifies the bill as unique. Etc.

Leaf can't reasonable do most of this, but the serial number and some kind of unique ink are probably doable. Perhaps have the real ink be something which fluoresces a specific color on application of chakra? If using wood use a specific kind of wood for each demoninatiom, if there are multiple. Make it something with little inherit value but relatively easy to monopolize. (The US literally has a monopoly on all purchases of the cotton and flax variants they use for their currency) (If I had been aware of how badly we had flubbed introducing scrip I'd have quite the lists of ways we did it wrong and things we needed to do post-haste to prevent trivial forgeries.)
 
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Byzantine said:
A seal, not a Seal.

Aka just a mundane printing of the clan emblem. Actual tiny seals draw on the scrip would be uneconomical to produce, due to the high value of sealmaster time.
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Huh. I can see why Asuma would be mad. That's essentially just Goketsu bucks. Much like a Rush Card or Chuck E Cheese tokens, it serves no actual purpose.
 
Byzantine said:
A seal, not a Seal.

Aka just a mundane printing of the clan emblem. Actual tiny seals draw on the scrip would be uneconomical to produce, due to the high value of sealmaster time.

Basically the scrip was pieces of painted wood with a stamp on it. Problem is basically anyone with decent calligraphy could probably fake such a stamp well enough to fool most people.
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It's honestly not even clear to me it was a stamp - it probably was, but it could have been pretty much anything.

We also knew that scrip didn't have seals on it because Gaku kept producing it in our absence.

Byzantine said:
In the real world we use a bunch of things to keep money from being easy to fake - very specific and secret or hard to replicate blends of material. Layers dyes, hidden symbols only visible under certain conditions. A number that identifies the bill as unique. Etc.

Leaf can't reasonable do most of this, but the serial number and some kind of unique ink are probably doable. Perhaps have the real ink be something which fluoresces a specific color on application of chakra? If using wood use a specific kind of wood for each demoninatiom, if there are multiple. Make it something with little inherit value but relatively easy to monopolize. (The US literally has a monopoly on all purchases of the cotton and flax variants they use for their currency) (If I had been aware of how badly we had flubbed introducing scrip I'd have quite the lists of ways we did it wrong and things we needed to do post-haste to prevent trivial forgeries.)
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I think that paper is the best option. This has to be something civilians can verify in the absence of a ninja, so anything chakra-sensitive is a bad idea. However, I'm optimistic that we might be able to spend some time doing cool paper research, which is worthwhile for the sealmaster clan in any circumstance, even if we're doing it for the Leaf, not for our own personal gain.
 
I think promising Haru a major reward is kinda not a great idea right now, given that we're financially in a terrible situation, and definitely can't afford to buy major rewards for people. Showing him we appreciate him is a great idea, don't get me wrong, but... can we have it be something we can do?

That, and he'd probably take this as "rich bastard trying to buy my loyalty with expensive bribes... I don't need this stuff, I literally gave most of my income to a random village... asshole clan bastard... grr...".
 
[X] Action Plan: Taking Haru Seriously

Agreed with what @MadScientist mentioned, though - Haru clearly cares first and foremost about personal agency, which is not purchasable with money anyways.
 
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MadScientist said:
I think promising Haru a major reward is kinda not a great idea right now, given that we're financially in a terrible situation, and definitely can't afford to buy major rewards for people. Showing him we appreciate him is a great idea, don't get me wrong, but... can we have it be something we can do?

That, and he'd probably take this as "rich bastard trying to buy my loyalty with expensive bribes... I don't need this stuff, I literally gave most of my income to a random village... asshole clan bastard... grr...".
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Jiraiya style favor, as long as it is within reason.
 
I also agree with @MadScientist and @Icehawk78, throwing money or favors at the problem isn't the solution. Even a Jiraiya style favor won't work, because Haru doesn't trust us that we'll actually make good on it. He'll weigh the favor in terms of what he thinks he will actually be allowed to have, instead of the spirit of how the favor is intended.

Part of the reason why Haru doesn't trust Hazou is because he sees Hazou's ideals and behavior as so unrealistic that it cannot be genuine, that it's just easy lip-service and philanthropy because we are rich. We need to convince Haru that we will not compromise our beliefs under any circumstances.

A separate issue is that Haru can see how far we will go for our family, and has trouble believing he is worth the same. He hasn't been through harrowing missing-nin adventures with us -- I'm not even sure what missions he has acompanied us for. The Basement predated Haru, right? Doing solo missions for the Goketsu will not bond Haru to us. It seems like it would take one of the Goketsu sacrificing something for him/taking an injury for him, which cannot be brought about on purpose. (Without causing other issues.)
 
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