Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
The Shadow Clone thing is a no-go due to mental feedback from their use.
(Personally I suspect that you can safely have one half to one clone per Aspect Bonus of Resolve.)
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
(Personally I suspect that you can safely have one half to one clone per Aspect Bonus of Resolve.)
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Oh, how's the feedback thing work?
So that worked much better than expected, and I'm now much less wary of allowing Hazou to do social ops.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Against most genin, at any rate. Going up against older ninja is a different matter, but one that was never a reasonable yardstick to use anyway.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Don't know exactly. We don't have its statblock.
- Location
- Yes.
The reason Keiko had to drink multiple liters of Noburi's chakra water was because, in between drinking said chakra water, she had to summon a Pangolin. Keiko's Chakra Reserves weren't significantly high enough to summon more than 1 Pangolin before running too dry to summon a second (at least without suffering Consequences), and so she had to go Summon -> drink Noburi's water -> Summon to get her Pangolins onto the field.
Noburi's 'limit' to how much chakra water he can make is based on how much chakra he has or how much water he has. It has nothing to do with how concentrated he can make his chakra water. He can literally put his entire chakra capacity (minus 1CP to not KO himself) into any 0.5L of water and give it to Keiko to drink (this is not recommended because CONSEQUENCES).
- Location
- Potato land
Go Hazou! Who wants to bet that after succeeding here, Hazou will be less susceptible to hostile seduction? Seeing the game be played from the other side always gives one useful perspective.
Thing is, we can't avoid interacting adversarially with social experts forever. Not unless you want Hazou to spend all his time sequestered in a sealing lab, with other people handling interfacing with the outside world. Adults in positions of power will naturally have better social stats than Goketsu "I spent the last two years hiding in the wilderness" Hazou.
Thankfully for us, the QMs are merciful, and have demonstrated that social combat is heavily context-dependent, and having better stats does not necessarily result in victory. Oftentimes, characterization will trump mechanics. And so, if we want Hazou to be more socially graceful, we really need to let him get some practice in. Preferably now, when the stakes are relatively low.
In conclusion, I disagree with your estimate of "no expected gain". Any well-planned conversation with a non-friendly social expert will naturally result in Hazou growing and getting better at it. Just like executing however many tactical combat plan caused him to get really good at that.
Can you quantify why that would be "really risky"? Personally, what worries me is that I find the risk difficult to estimate for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's high. "Something bad might still happen" is paranoia, not risk assessment.
Thing is, we can't avoid interacting adversarially with social experts forever. Not unless you want Hazou to spend all his time sequestered in a sealing lab, with other people handling interfacing with the outside world. Adults in positions of power will naturally have better social stats than Goketsu "I spent the last two years hiding in the wilderness" Hazou.
Thankfully for us, the QMs are merciful, and have demonstrated that social combat is heavily context-dependent, and having better stats does not necessarily result in victory. Oftentimes, characterization will trump mechanics. And so, if we want Hazou to be more socially graceful, we really need to let him get some practice in. Preferably now, when the stakes are relatively low.
In conclusion, I disagree with your estimate of "no expected gain". Any well-planned conversation with a non-friendly social expert will naturally result in Hazou growing and getting better at it. Just like executing however many tactical combat plan caused him to get really good at that.
Can you quantify why that would be "really risky"? Personally, what worries me is that I find the risk difficult to estimate for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's high. "Something bad might still happen" is paranoia, not risk assessment.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure if the Wakahisa could concentrate it down more they'd carry a flask instead of a bloody barrel and dole out little thimble fulls to replenish people.
Is it active all the time or only when they pop or...?
In training circumstances we could stagger popping so that we don't get overwhelmed.
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Mainly I think that she would somehow frustrate Hazou into making some kind of Bad Mistake like agreeing to an unfavourable deal, trapping himself into taking a position that runs counter to his priorities, or revealing sensitive information. Something something kage-level social specs are scary. I'unno, I also find it difficult to determine the level of risk.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Unknowns are risk, in itself, and additive to whatever other risk there is. That we don't know how dangerous it is, and it's dealing with a near-Itachi-level prodigy, means that we should be extremely wary.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Yep. We should absolutely be aware of the risks and unknowns and do what we reasonably can to mitigate them. On the other hand, we're talking about a potential ally in alliance building and uplift endeavors and someone who can emotionally help Keiko. If we don't engage for fear of unknown downsides, we miss out on the benefits of things going well for sure.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Absolutely. But it's for that reason that I want both Keiko's and Jiraiya's permission to engage with her.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I would like to take a moment to highlight something thats come up the last 20 chapters or so.
We need to be a bit more proactive in moving game pieces into position.
Some of this is context dependent and obviously situational, but I can't imagine that having more options available (and with less red tape)at any given point in time is a bad thing.
Not saying that we need to be ridiculous about it, but expanding our contacts list a bit and being more proactive in setting things up for potential moves later is good practice.
Instances where I think we've done this well (that I can think of):
Lets do some more of this please.
We need to be a bit more proactive in moving game pieces into position.
- Didn't immediately run around apologizing to people for Orgy Night, and had nothing in place to deal with the rumors.
- Result: This was not really cleared up at all. Not really a bad thing but its still a learning experience.
- Express ordering some custom made outfits for the CHAOS suits.
- Result: We found a tailor, it got done in time.
- Waited until we were in Mist to approach the Yaks about gambling.
- Result: Less gains than we could have had comparatively.
- Last minute Hail Mary throw to plant some disinfo about this.
- Result: This worked out okay, from what I can tell.
Some of this is context dependent and obviously situational, but I can't imagine that having more options available (and with less red tape)at any given point in time is a bad thing.
Not saying that we need to be ridiculous about it, but expanding our contacts list a bit and being more proactive in setting things up for potential moves later is good practice.
Instances where I think we've done this well (that I can think of):
- Red Team One folks. We sent them letters and stuff to keep up good relations.
- Having Noburi work/bribe the crowd beforehand. That worked out quite well.
- Told the nice ANBU lady where we were going, and gave her some dirty laundry to sniff in case we got kidnapped.
- Gross.
- Bullshat around with some merchants a few chapters ago. We should follow up on this some more.
- Sand Genin had a good time, and we invited them for a drink tomorrow. Cool.
- Let's not get Ino too jealous though.
Lets do some more of this please.
- Location
- Berlin
Could you relink it? We uh... type a lot of comments, hahah. Oh, I didn't get a chance to before, but welcome! We're happy to have more people being involved, especially long-time readers!
Thanks! Here's my original post:
HPMoR Chapter 48 said:
Sorry to hear it! So long as I actively participate in this quest I will also be a staunch advocate of Doing Interesting Things (DIT). Proactive protagonists are the best kind of protagonists, after all. I figure we have enough risk-averse players to balance things out anyways, so I won't feel bad about suggesting potentially dangerous courses of action. (What's -not- dangerous in the MfD verse after all?)
- Location
- Potato land
True. On the other hand, the scope of the interaction is very limited - it's a short casual conversation, likely taking place in a public space. We wouldn't be trying to attain any specific goals, even - the Oyabun definitely has better socials than we do, and we navigated meetings with him very effectively. And if we categorically forbid Hazou to engage in certain topics, then he won't, no matter Ami's socials. We can even put a circuit breaker in the plan, where if the conversation appears to be getting out of control, Hazou should just excuse himself and leave.
Again, it's just a conversation without any underlying power dynamics. No means of effective coercion available.
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
What do you propose we tell Keiko?
Although now that I think of it, it would be extremely interesting to ask her whether she thinks Ami would support the alliance between Leaf and Mist and whether she would be interested in the uplift concept. The only problem is that by raising Ami to Keiko we'd be twisting the knife in a recent emotional wound and that seems cruel.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hm. In that context, I don't think we actually did half bad at it. Interesting thoughts there.
- Location
- Yes.
Not MadScientist, but I don't want to talk to Ami because of her status as a Jonin-level prodigy with the Mori bloodline who also happens to be part of a third faction in Mist whose goals are as of yet unknown, not to mention the fact that Jiraiya apparently cannot read her, nor figure out what her (and her faction's) goals are. Keep in mind that Jiraiya is the Hokage, Leaf's premier spymaster, and probably one of the best Konoha-allied social fighters alive. This paints a picture that is terrifying as fuck, and I sure as hell don't want to get involved with that.
Also, Ami managed to get blackmail material on Jiraiya. Blackmail material. On Jiraiya.
Um, yes? Barring clan secrets that we don't have knowledge of, everything I've said is from the ruledocs. Also, they require at least 0.5L water to store chakra, again assuming there aren't clan secrets none of us know about.
Off the top of my head...the existence of Hidden Mountain, our actions in Hot Springs (though TBF they 'know' about this already), Kagome trying to blow up Minami, and the Sunset Racer massacre.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is effectively a dog whistle for I don't want to do it.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Well... unless we go in like "I want my sister to be happy. You are a necessary part of her happiness. What needs to happen for you to feel comfortable being part of her life?"
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think thats coming on a bit strong on the last part there.
- Location
- Yes.
I don't really understand this line of thought, could you explain why you see it this way?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Sure is. It's also very straightforward about what we want out of the conversation. The way you 'beat' social specialists is to not engage with them on their level. Be straightforward, to the point, earnest, and do not let them sway you.
(Speaking from experience here.
)
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
The way things look to me, a Wakahisa could store all their chakra in a small 0.5L flask but then they would only have one serving of water - whoever they give any water to will get all of the Wakahisa's water and there's no water left for any more replenishing of anything.
So instead, the Wakahisa carry around barrels full of 'enough' servings of water, and whenever they need to replenish someone they put exactly as much as they need in that serving and still have plenty of water and chakra to give to others.
- Location
- Behind a keyboard
That seems to have gone about as well as it could have. Looked to have come off as quite natural, and I really enjoyed reading it. But I'm not convinced the entire matter is settled.
Hazou may have convinced this one genin, and therefore potentially Sand. And the hope is the disinformation will spread even further, though I doubt it'll reach all of the interested parties.
But if the fight was observed by someone with a perception jutsu (jounin with some capacity for spying seem like a good pick for a chuunin exam delegation) I doubt this would've helped. Such people will trust their own observations first and foremost, they'll have existing intelligence on the Kurosawa, and we're unlikely to fool them directly because their socials are bound to be better.
Hazou may have convinced this one genin, and therefore potentially Sand. And the hope is the disinformation will spread even further, though I doubt it'll reach all of the interested parties.
But if the fight was observed by someone with a perception jutsu (jounin with some capacity for spying seem like a good pick for a chuunin exam delegation) I doubt this would've helped. Such people will trust their own observations first and foremost, they'll have existing intelligence on the Kurosawa, and we're unlikely to fool them directly because their socials are bound to be better.