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I should probably have brought this up first, but MfD deliberately doesn't feature intra-party social combat and never has.
Then when kagome plotted murder he should be considered an enemy.

Edit: I'm ok with social combat not being a thing most of the time but when someone plots real combat I think it should come up. I just wish that would have been in the player docs because I would have been much more paranoid about team killing each other then
 
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[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

What a horrible, horrible time to unlurk. Feels... well, first impression is making a program and having a robot we control fulfill it to the letter, causing a terrible disaster because we forgot a ; somewhere.
Of course in reality it's a mistake similar to the Leaf fuckup with Jiraiya we had, except in this case we forgot a crucial bit of information (that this was a clan secret).
Still... it feels like it felt back then, except far, far worse.
 
As a counter point, a large part of why I read stories is for character suffering. Personally, I like the way the story developed. It's a natural consequence of the characters we have, and a real source of tension and pain without resorting to an idiot ball that people need to hold to cause conflict. Honestly, a lot of the people voting seem to be saying things like "the setting is a lot darker than I thought it was and so I hate it" which seems odd. I came for the darkness.

Personally, I didn't read the plan this voting period. I did mention some stuff about opsec being an issue with Noburi's use of misterators, two updates ago, but didn't expand that idea to needing to keep information from Minami.

I stuck through it time and time again even though I doubt I would continue. Maybe I'll keep doing it too. But it can be a very demoralizing experience sometime.
 
Let's take a poll. If there are at least 15 voters then we will abide by the consensus. Here are the options:

[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

[X] Poll (Agency): No, I do not want to give up any control of Hazō and I am willing to accept the fact that he will sometimes do things that I feel someone who grew up in this world wouldn't do because we (the players) voted for him to do so.

Well, I was about to say, good suggestion, but "hold off on proposing solutions". And then I wanted to warn voters not to vote for something before having discussed about what it means ( for example, does this mean hazou no longer gets sealing/physics intuitions from the hivemind, because it wouldn't be realistic for a ninja vrought up in the EN?)

But it seems everyone voted for Yes already.

AS a side note, since I don't normally reply to this thread (for the common reason of not having enough energy/commitment/time to be an effective player) I wanted to thank all the GMs for the time and the effort they put into MfD and express my admiration for their writing skills.
I have truly enjoyed it, and will in all likelyhood continue reading it, whatever form it may take.

P.(P).S.: If I had felt justified in voting, I would have voted for the Watchtower plan.
 
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
 
Then when kagome plotted murder he should be considered an enemy.

Edit: I'm ok with social combat not being a thing most of the time but when someone plots real combat I think it should come up. I just wish that would have been in the player docs because I would have been much more paranoid about team killing each other then
If Kagome had been targeting a teammate, the case could have been made. But Minami was an outsider to the group - you would have been allowed social rolls against her if necessary.
 
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
 
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

What a horrible, horrible time to unlurk. Feels... well, first impression is making a program and having a robot we control fulfill it to the letter, causing a terrible disaster because we forgot a ; somewhere.
Of course in reality it's a mistake similar to the Leaf fuckup with Jiraiya we had, except in this case we forgot a crucial bit of information (that this was a clan secret).
Still... it feels like it felt back then, except far, far worse.
As the plan author of several past massive fuckups we've had: yes it's bad. No, it's not the end of the world. As Keiko said, Jiraiya and the Nara will need to help us cover up. Worst case, Kagome is killed/exiled as part of a cover up and Hazou's position in the group is greatly reduced for a substantial period of time as he retreats to more sealing based pursuits.

Wow.
Armageddon initiative looks pretty good now doesn't it.
I mean, I'm up for armageddon, but the suicide voting block is currently making it implausible to get passed! Seriously, people. If you're gonna destroy the world, do it right. Then again, giving up agency will likely mean that Hazou will override future armageddon plans we pass, but meh.
 
Alert: Warning
The qm's have lost the right to polite interaction with this latest stunt.
warning Polite interaction is part and parcel of posting on the forum. I understand you may be displeased with the latest developments, but you will express that disapproval politely or not at all. Keep the feedback constructive, don't let salt override your better judgment. This goes for everybody.
 
An irrational part of me really wishes this Minami was actually a resurrected Zabuza that Orochimaru put in a body of a girl and that Kagome here was actually a henged Kakashi and and... that somehow it's not real...
 
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
 
I feel like we were taking care of that ourselves pretty well, and in a less adversarial way, but sure.
 
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

There might be some growing pains in adjusting to system changes, but avoiding situations like this seems worth it longterm.
 
If Kagome had been targeting a teammate, the case could have been made. But Minami was an outsider to the group - you would have been allowed social rolls against her if necessary.
I clearly disagree that Minami was an outsider. She might not have been on the team long term but she was our legally appointed commander. That matters to me at least
 
@eaglejarl, @OliWhail, @Velorien - wall o'text here, but it's needed to get my thoughts down.

I've taken some time to put my thoughts together on this. Outside of the matter of Hazou as a character having agency in regards to our plans and how much he's allowed to reject or ignore, I think the big mishandling on your part here is failing to ask the question "Is it appropriate to punish our players for this oversight, and if so how much?" Or if you did ask yourselves that, I think you came to a bad answer. I very much appreciate that you've come up with a rich variant on the Naruto setting where people act as actual characters with consistent motivations and things work in a more rational and realistic manner, but at the same time you have to remember that you're running this as a game rather than a story. People play games to have fun, and even games that have high difficulty need to have a degree of fairness or players will end up getting frustrated and quit.

Punishing players for bad decisions is a time honored tradition for GMs and make games more interesting since automatically winning is boring, but those punishments need to be measured to the mistake to an extent, and unless someone does something spectacularly stupid there needs to be some chance of recovery. Examples:

1. The players decide to enter into one on one combat with a combat spec jonin as a genin. You don't even need to roll for this. Bad End. This is fair because the players did something blatantly and obviously stupid.
2. The players decide to enter the group into combat with another group of around equal rank. You roll the dice. The player character dies, suffers crippling injury, one or more teammates have the same consequences, etc. Given the stated realism and lethality level of the setting this is fair. Entering into combat with an opponent near your level is a gamble. By the same token, it could also be considered fair to give the players a chance to retreat or continue combat if things are going badly, but that's a GM choice.
3. The players make a series of questionable decisions that are not individually lethal, and there are signs that there are problems, but the players maintain the course without correcting.
4. The players forget some small detail in their plan. The GM doesn't remind them of the detail, give no indication that the detail caused a problem before actually having it blow up in their face, and the results are not something the players can recover from. This isn't going to seem fair to the players, and it's what happened here.

When we had the "willing to go very far for Akane" incident things were bad because of it, but we didn't lose anything that was recoverable. It was still a rather hefty punishment for the level of detail, but ultimately I'd say it was fair due to the fact that what we lost (access to Leaf and good will with Leaf, Akane being with the party) was ultimately recoverable - we were able to get out of the kill box even without Hazou giving Jiraiya the right answer to his question due to Keiko giving him a good reason to let us live, and even without Skywalkers we could have worked our way back into Leaf's good graces in the long run. We were also able to recover our team's trust. I find it further fair because of how interesting it ended up being.

Here we did not have any indication that what we did caused a problem until the update the problem actually occured on, not giving us a chance to react to the general problem we caused until it caused unrecoverable problems. We have lost the trust of our team in our judgement due to our mistake causing this big clusterfuck (and I fear it's a permanent loss this time), our squad leader is dead, Kagome may be lost to us as a team member depending on how we go about this (and the team also has lost a great degree of trust in him) and if he isn't lost then Jiraiya will certainly never trust him, and we may have also lost our relationship with Akane. These are not recoverable circumstances IMO, and the lack of any chance to deal with it isn't really fair from a game standpoint since it's entirely reasonable that the players forgot what amounts to one detail in a mountain of details.

I think this would have been far, far more fun and interesting had we been given a chance to recover from this somehow before it became a complete and utter disaster. My suggestion is to retcon the last part of the update and have Kagome stopped before he can complete his murder plot, giving Hazou a chance to talk him down. Minami would be aware of the plot, and it'd certainly cause severe problems with the new team dynamic, but it could ultimately be recovered. It would cause a good amount of drama and opportunities for character growth, but not be something the players would feel is out of proportion for the level of mistake they made.
 
I clearly disagree that Minami was an outsider. She might not have been on the team long term but she was our legally appointed commander. That matters to me at least
I would say she was an outsider to the point where her integration with the team practically comprised her personal story arc. Your own latest plan was all about trying to accomplish this.
 
Yeah, this is the kind of killer qm'ing to which the only response is to not play.
So when it's bad for us Kagome acts as modeled, (killing our leader), but when it would be good for us (he is unable to keep a secret) he is free to go against his character?

Very rational. Much wow.
You first m8. I'm just enjoying all this rationality.
@notanautomaton We really don't need this from you. Please either be constructive or be gone; you do not add enough to the quest for me to want to put up with this.

And I'm only here because someone PMed about how dumb this was and wow I was not expecting his spiel to be spot-on rather than exaggeration.
So what you're saying is that you came into this thread solely to throw shade? That's an infractable offense under the rules of SV, as well as being rude in general. I ask that you stop posting here, or keep your posts constructive and positive going forward.




AS a side note, since I don't normally reply to this thread (for the common reason of not having enough energy/commitment/time to be an effective player) I wanted to thank all the GMs for the time and the effort they put into MfD and express my admiration for their writing skills.
I have truly enjoyed it, and will in all likelyhood continue reading it, whatever form it may take.
Thank you so much. We really appreciate this kind of thing.



Especially since we have such limited time to construct [plans]
Amusingly, back when the quest was started we had one person say "You're updating Thursdays and Sundays? I don't want to play in a quest with such a slow update schedule."



This is the "GM crosses out inappropriate orders" line. I prefer "GM points things out in discussion" so that it's like bouncing ideas with the character of "what do you think of his plan?", but eh.
Unfortunately there just isn't enough GM time available. We're already each putting ~20 hours a week in.

Will this involve a retcon from the last two chapters? I understand if you think the mistakes shouldn't be left undone, but maybe reading this type of story just isn't for me.
It will not.

[X] Poll (Agency): Yes
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes*

I think that communication is the most important aspect here. If it's a minor detail of the plan and basic ninja common sense tells him that it's stupid, he shouldn't do it. But then we need to know why he didn't do it.

As long as we can be told why, I doubt many people will complain. Perhaps also provide us with an explicit override option: if we really want to do something, we can apply the [EXPLICIT] tag to a part of a plan and override his common sense objection there, but we need to explicitly intend to override said common sense. The default should be to not be stupid, not unless we explicitly state "We are aware that this is stupid. Do it anyway." Randomly dropping parts of the plan would be problematic, but as long as its explained I won't have any problems with it.
Note that we are not accepting write-ins. You need to vote the exact options that were given.

As to explaining the problem: yes, we would explain why things didn't follow the plan. I certainly have no problem with the [EXPLICIT] tag.

Important note: If you vote this option in you are giving us carte blanche to ignore as much or as little of a plan as we choose based on our understanding of Hazō's character. You are giving us carte blanche to have him do whatever we want in those circumstances. Despite all of the slander being thrown at us, we are not evil genies and we are not big mean poopyheads out to wreck your fun. We will avoid GM overrides as much as possible and, when they need to be applied, we will have Hazō do whatever we think the most positive action is.

If you vote yes on this though, you do not get to bitch at all when we apply a GM override. You can ask for an explanation if we forget to provide one, but you need to be polite about it.

Seriously, people: Velorien and I and OliWhail are each working a part-time job -- about 20 hours per week -- keeping you entertained. For the last three weeks I've been working a full-time job, caring for a parent who just went through life-saving spinal surgery, and still keeping the update schedule. Please stop whining.
 
Also, RE Keiko and socials, that was one time, half a quest ago. It was probably just a QM slip-up. Those happen. They don't change the fact that there's a policy.

If we'd allowed intra-party social combat all along, Hazō and the rest would all have been happy Mari mind-slaves by now.
There've been other chapters, I think. Chapters 18, 31.3, and 92 can be argued as intra-social rolls, though I'm not sure if they'd 100% qualify. Just a thought.

Side note: Does anyone recall the below? Does this accomplish anything? Or am I being desperate?
You have also found the time for Mari-sensei's diplomacy/deception training. She seemed uncomfortable, but not wholly unwilling.
 
I think this would have been far, far more fun and interesting had we been given a chance to recover from this somehow before it became a complete and utter disaster. My suggestion is to retcon the last part of the update and have Kagome stopped before he can complete his murder plot, giving Hazou a chance to talk him down. Minami would be aware of the plot, and it'd certainly cause severe problems with the new team dynamic, but it could ultimately be recovered. It would cause a good amount of drama and opportunities for character growth, but not be something the players would feel is out of proportion for the level of mistake they made.
YES. All of my yes.
I mean, if she wakes up to us talking about killing her, this happens:
- integrating her to the team is now basically impossible
- she knows we're the stone cold killers, and this is still a problem that needs to be addressed (the rest of the village can't know)
- our entire team cohesion is in shambles because we revealed secret jutsu
- we now are in a bit of a diplomatic shitstorm

EDIT: and the quest players will probably be even more aware of opsec questions now. I expect more caution and paranoia. For about ten minutes.
 
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