Alright gonna side with Velorien here.
You guys proposed a plan to Minami. Then Noburi used his mist in the update. In that order. It stands to reason that we proposed using the mist in the plan if the plan involved using the mist.
"But OpSec and implications and clever reasons for retcon because i don't like this!"
After seeing Noburi use his mist, and before Minami became salsa, we had another voting period. Nobody raised OpSec concerns then.
The very obvious implication of on-screen events is exactly as depicted, and nobody objected until after it was shown to be a problem.
So maybe Hazou can justify his actions and whatnot. But He didn't, and Kagome obviously was on a different wavelength and caught us all by surprise.
Fuck your attempts at retcon, this happened.
Rules lawyering is a time honored tradition of people within denial of a bad outcome. We will do our best within the time limit of noticing a bad outcome before turning to handle the situation. Now if you will excuse me I shall be going back into the past to see how top secret Mist draining is and if Noburi should have spoken up during the portion of the day when we laid out our plan for him to state that the Mist would be good cover for him to get close with his water whip. Given that it is his secret and something he should have worked harder to keep secret.
For the record, I'm with
@Velorien on the interpretation here. Everything done makes sense and seems like a correct interpretation of our plan and our paranoid friends. Really, I'm surprised that Kagome hadn't killed someone we cared about earlier, but I suppose that's what Mari had been doing for a year+.
Thank you all for the support.
Nope. There's no realistic way we can keep the fact we killed Minami from Jiraiya, and probably not from the other clan heads either. We can provide a cover story which they can choose to use and generate enough goodwill via our actions that they might be willing to overlook our treason.
If you ask Keiko, she will point out that Jiraiya cannot afford to not cover this up. Jiraiya just burned every scrap of goodwill he had with the clan leaders; if it is shown that adopting all of you was a really bad idea then he is ruined. All of the tentative support he's currently getting will dissolve into civil war and he won't be able to focus on finding Naruto. Likewise, Nara Shikaku will have to support you because allowing Leaf to devolve into civil war would destroy Leaf. Neither of them will be happy and there will definitely be consequences, but they will work to cover this up.
(How did none of our teammates catch that? That is, I'd expect them to hear us reach the part where we say "drop Misterators in" and immediately gag us for being morons. I recognize that my thought process there is rather motivated, though.)
@Velorien mentioned this above, but just to reiterate: Keiko and Noburi caught it instantly but didn't want to cause a scene in front of Minami until they'd had a chance to bring it up with the team in private. Kagome realized it later.
I will also note that when Noburi had his pissing match with Minami (chapter 125) he carefully did not mention draining through mist or having misterators, despite providing every other detail of his bloodline and his seal loadout. Nor did he disclose the Iron Nerve's ability to record and copy seals -- he called it just "an amazing kinesthetic sense that makes him a monster at taijutsu."
I am confused. In chapter 125 Hazou reveals his ability to copy seals in front of Minami, yet Kagome doesn't seem to care? What's going on?
He simply said that he had a trick for recording seals quickly.
I've never seen a quest where the QMs heap abuse on the voters quite this much.
"Why didn't you remember X? You're stupid! You have a big mouth! How dare you not recall that something treated forever as not a great secret at all was supposed to be this great secret in-game."
You really do like to get ad hominem, don't you? I seem to recall you doing the same thing during YOUTHsuit-gate. I suggest that this attitude is not going to get you what you want. We have never said any of those things, nor anything like them. Please either make calm and well-reasoned arguments or leave the quest; accusations and ad hominem attacks just waste electrons.
Now I'm sure that probably somewhere back in the early mists of the quest it was revealed that:
1.Wakahisa can carry chakra in a barrel = everybody knows
2. Wakahisa can drain people through mists = deep dark uber-secret
But who can remember that?
I mean, what the thread discussion was actually concerned about was that using the Misterators would give the game away that a Wakahisa was involved because "everybody knows the Wakahisa can drain people through mists". It was clearly in most voter's heads that this was common knowledge rather than a clan secret.
Given your combative attitude I really should let this go, but:
1) The fact that most voters had a mistake in their head does not change the fact that it's a mistake.
2) Multiple people have said that they side with us on this being a fair interpretation and at least one has said that zie saw the issue at the time but didn't speak up.
3) "Clan secrets" has been referenced again and again. Even if you know nothing about canon the idea of clan secrets should not be new.
4) As to "how should we have known this is a clan secret?!?/111?!" Here's the first example that comes to mind -- this is from the chapter where Noburi told everyone that he'd discovered the technique:
Hazou gaped in shock at Noburi's news.
Noburi's expression labeled him very clearly as Smugley Smuggington, King of Smugton. "Yep," he said, hitching his thumbs inside his lapels and rocking back and forth on his heels. "Legendary clan technique. Kids my age think it's just a story that the adults are making up. Figured it out all my own."
Note about whether this was a fair interpretation of the plan:
There are two plans (which each have bifurcations) Hazou's come up with in how to approach acquiring Shiratora; suggest them both to Minami, with preference for the second for the fact that it involves less people. Leave the final decision to her.
There was nothing in here about running the plans by the team before blurting them out to Minami.
Alright--here's my issue:
All of the team, save us, apparently recognized this leak.
Why did nothing happen, save some glares, until now?
I agree with Kagome doing this. I just feel like... there should have been some warning?
I would have expected our team mates to have more agency than that, yeah.
I can't even.
Ok, so some things happened
- Hazou proposes a plan that everyone recognizes as stupid
- everyone goes through with it without saying a thing
- then takes action without Hazou that results in a team member dying.
What the hell? Why is it that our team only thinks for themselves when it fucks us over?
Edit: Better yet, now they're asking him his opinion. Like the plan that he proposed that got a teammate killed is just a brush off, and they want him to lead again.
As mentioned in the update, everyone was waiting until they could address the issue in private. Noburi and Keiko's definition of "address the issue" was "talk to the whole team while Minami is in Sand." Kagome's was "wait until she's asleep and I'm on watch."
There is no suggestion in the plan that anything should be run past the rest of the team before bringing it up with Minami.
This. And, as I quoted above, it explicitly stated to present both options to Minami.
What confuses me is that Mist draining is considered such a huge secret ? I was under the impression that post TGR Mist-drain became a kind of: "Oh we don't tell the children because they would be annoying" kind of thing.
"...be annoying and because kids aren't good at keeping secrets."
Also by that logic the Byakugans ability to see chakra would be a huge secret.
I don't see the parallel…?
This is a paramilitary where apparently, it is high treason to brief your commanding officer.
No. It is excessively unwise to disclose clan secrets to an outsider. This was a big deal (among other times) when Keiko was talking about joining the Nara clan.
I understand your rules about faithfully interpreting the action plans of players. But I feel I can no longer play a quest where even the tiniest and the most innocent seeming mistake blow up in our face.
I hope you find something else that you prefer.
Wasn't there a bloodline option that would cause the character to explicitly hear the hivemind? Like, actual voices in his head?
I would have no problem with that, with the understanding that it means your character is a complete meat puppet. You would be able to use OOC knowledge but you don't get to cry "Wait! Someone who grew up in this world wouldn't do that!"
Give our team mates more agency, so they're more likely to stop us when we make a mistake. This wouldn't have happened if anyone on the team had brought up operational security.
Had you spoken to them before disclosing the plans to Minami they would have.
Basically, as the system is now, Hazou can only ever really act like someone with a pile of deep neurological deficits that range from "absurd levels of forgetfulness" to "basically multiple personality disorder". I don't know how to fix that, or if the correct response is just to say "The player base should just learn how to deal with it." But, I will be very annoyed if you don't acknowledge that the issue is real or present a case for why I'm wrong.
Let's take a poll. If there are at least 15 voters then we will abide by the consensus. Here are the options:
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
[X] Poll (Agency): No, I do not want to give up any control of Hazō and I am willing to accept the fact that he will sometimes do things that I feel someone who grew up in this world wouldn't do because we (the players) voted for him to do so.
