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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
@Velorien but @Traiden's argument is still valid from what I see: we still would prefer to OPSEC drain without Misterators; the plan that wasn't actually used doesn't mention using mist drain, only "drain"; and previous plans make use of OPSEC such that Noburi only reveals his secrets.
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I can see it's going to be a long night.

OK, point 1. Hazō had two plan options. Naturally he presented both to Minami for discussion. Why else were they both there, given that they weren't conditional?

Point 2.
Cariyaga said:
  • Have Noburi drain everyone in the building to unconscious.
  • If anyone is not drained immediately engage them in combat. Use chakra boost.
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The only way for Noburi to even theoretically drain everyone in the building unconscious "immediately" is to use area chakra drain through mist.

Additionally, trying to do so using the water whip would in no way be superior to having several team members just go in and knock people out through superior taijutsu.
 
I get it now. In the course of giving Minami that piece of advice, we mentioned three or four plans which she could pick at her discretion, of which more than one mentioned Noburi's ability to drain through mist. Minami picked the one that seemed best to her, which was the mist drain. But damn we should have caught this.
 
faflec said:
@Velorien but @Traiden's argument is still valid from what I see: we still would prefer to OPSEC drain without Misterators; the plan that wasn't actually used doesn't mention using mist drain, only "drain"; and previous plans make use of OPSEC such that Noburi only reveals his secrets.
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The problem is that even though we actually did have decent opsec kagome might have thought that it was still to revealing. Which shows why Kei and Noburi might have missed it.
 
Or use the mist as cover to conceal his exact location as he Batman's his way through each of the people in the warehouse using stealth and tactics to keep the targets guessing his attack vector. Like a ninja would!
 
@Velorien can't quote well on phone, but:
1. Why is Noburi's Water Whip insufficient to drain? I was under the impression it could go several meters long?
2. I was under the impression Hazou and Akane were also going in?
3. Even if the above are wrong, does Minami know that?
 
Yeah, plan makes it definitely clear that the concern was that Misterators/chakra drain would be too obvious for follow-up investigation rather than "what mysterious ninja would have the power to chakra drain people through water in the air like this".

Seems like everyone literally forgot that this was ever supposed to be a secret.

Velorien said:
I can see it's going to be a long night.

OK, point 1. Hazō had two plan options. Naturally he presented both to Minami for discussion. Why else were they both there, given that they weren't conditional?
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Yeah, but at this point all that Minami knows is that Noburi has some sort of technique that could render people in a mist unconscious. If Noburi was so concerned about keeping it a secret, he could have whacked Hazou on the back of the head and told him to shut up, then made a fuss about not revealing anything more.

Knowing "Noburi has a way to knock people out" but no details actually does seem like the level of protection one should expect for a clan technique that one uses on a semi-regular basis. If the intent was it for a "use only in holy shit moments, otherwise never reveal this exists" technique then that was certainly a surprise to me.
 
ting said:
you get a mind driven by people without the basic common sense of even a 6 year old who grew up in the Narutoverse.
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In addition, we don't seem to really have habits. We discussed things with keiko, especially social things, but unless we actively focus on it, include it in every plan, it isn't included. See previous plans that include opsec.

On the whole, it does feel like Hazo has some kind of disability. Lack of common sense and inability to form habits without constantly focusing on them.

This seems to have happened because of two things
  • Our team mates complete lack of agency
  • Not sticking to previous plans, not turning opsec into a habit
So let's stick some habits in the wiki, and include "follow habits on linktowiki" in every plan? Justified as Hazo keeping a journal with habits in it?
 
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Velorien said:
I can see it's going to be a long night.

OK, point 1. Hazō had two plan options. Naturally he presented both to Minami for discussion. Why else were they both there, given that they weren't conditional?

Point 2.

The only way for Noburi to even theoretically drain everyone in the building unconscious "immediately" is to use area chakra drain through mist.

Additionally, trying to do so using the water whip would in no way be superior to having several team members just go in and knock people out through superior taijutsu.
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Except we still didn't mention that Noburi could drain through mist just that he had an ability to drain people to unconsciousness safely. So we didn't give away the actual method.
 
faflec said:
@Velorien can't quote well on phone, but:
1. Why is Noburi's Water Whip insufficient to drain? I was under the impression it could go several meters long?
2. I was under the impression Hazou and Akane were also going in?
3. Even if the above are wrong, does Minami know that?
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1. It's perfectly sufficient, but you have to drain people one by one, at which point you might as well knock them out conventionally.
2. Now I read the plan, I suppose that would make sense, but it doesn't actually mention them at all, beyond Akane potentially picking a lock.
3. Sorry, not sure what you mean. What does Minami know to be wrong?
 
The targets where thugs with civilian levels of chakra so it would not take long to subdue with only the water whip. His fast implication of the plan could be just how badass Noburi is with his water whip and using the mist to boost his stealth. Minami does not know exactly how long it would take to drain people normally, this being the first time she would have sen it in action.

The mist would leave evidence that a ninja made these people disappear rather than the building just being abandoned as everything would be covered in water
 
traverseda said:
  • Not sticking to previous plans, not turning opsec into a habit
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There was a good amount of concern about opsec... against outside investigators. The idea that the existence of this ability was something that needed to be concealed from Minami doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone posting in the thread. Perhaps because operational security against your own teammate seems kind of counter-intuitive.
 
@Velorien I mean that Minami might not know Water Whip is not sufficient to drain quickly enough, or the speed of his drain. We the players know but Minami had probably never seen a Wakahisa before.
 
@Velorien Do we not have common sense? It seems like the plans are interpreted in the worst possible light a lot of the time. Can Hazo roll to interpret the plans in a way that isn't idiotic? Did he roll, and just roll poorly?

If Hazo is legitimately handicapped, we need to know that so we can account for it. So far that's not my reading, but it would be good to know.
 
Well, that was exciting. So, options:

  • Continue as normal and keep Kagome
    • Lol! Kagome can't keep a secret. Honestly, neither can we, which brings us to the second point
  • Explain what happened to Leaf
    • lol! They'll just imprison and kill Kagome, probably us, and make the Nara hokage
  • Hide in the woods!
    • Wouldn't be a bad option if we had Mari with us
  • Get into an insane fight with someone to come up with an excuse for why Minari died
    • Might get one or more of us killed
  • Manipulate Kagome into telling us where he comes from, and use that information to track down Akatsuki, then get Jiraiya's son back
    • Provides an excuse for why Minami died (fighting Akatsuki), and grants leniency via returning Naruto
 
faflec said:
@Velorien I mean that Minami might not know Water Whip is not sufficient to drain quickly enough, or the speed of his drain. We the players know but Minami had probably never seen a Wakahisa before.
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Indeed. But the problem is less what Minami could have concluded from observation and more the information that was presented to her at the planning phase, which included using the water whip if Minami was worried about using misterators, meaning that the water whip was an alternative to whatever Noburi was planning to use them for.
 
Alright gonna side with Velorien here.

You guys proposed a plan to Minami. Then Noburi used his mist in the update. In that order. It stands to reason that we proposed using the mist in the plan if the plan involved using the mist.

"But OpSec and implications and clever reasons for retcon because i don't like this!"

After seeing Noburi use his mist, and before Minami became salsa, we had another voting period. Nobody raised OpSec concerns then.

The very obvious implication of on-screen events is exactly as depicted, and nobody objected until after it was shown to be a problem.

So maybe Hazou can justify his actions and whatnot. But He didn't, and Kagome obviously was on a different wavelength and caught us all by surprise.

Fuck your attempts at retcon, this happened.
 
Rules lawyering is a time honored tradition of people within denial of a bad outcome. We will do our best within the time limit of noticing a bad outcome before turning to handle the situation. Now if you will excuse me I shall be going back into the past to see how top secret Mist draining is and if Noburi should have spoken up during the portion of the day when we laid out our plan for him to state that the Mist would be good cover for him to get close with his water whip. Given that it is his secret and something he should have worked harder to keep secret.

The evidence which Minami would be worried about would be the water covering everything once the mist settles onto everything in the building.
 
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