Oh hey I think this is enough for ACE2 if it all goes to Hazou.
It was actually enough for ACE2 without any of the discretionary XP going to Hazou.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped I haven't been paying too much attention to Kei's character sheet, but I recalled that she had cleared a Leadership stagnancy back in Chapter 698; however, her sheet still has her Leadership domain listed as being stagnant. Was this not updated, xor is Kei just really stagnant in Leadership?
It wasn't updated, my bad. Fixed now.

The idea that lack of oxygen is a matter of doing damage goes back at least as far as Beowulf. He was able to walk around under water just because he was so tough. In the real world we know that it amounts to a lack of fuel. Damage only happens later because of a lack of maintenance of body functions. I suppose that cartoon physics can be part of Naruto canon but my understanding was that we were trying to be more realistic so it shouldn't be part of our canon. On the other hand, I suppose this could just be the narrator representing the perception of the characters involved.
You're right that the natural intuition is that oxygen deprivation is doing damage, and that's what Naruto (the narrator here) is assuming. Mostly you shouldn't treat any information presented from a character PoV as being WoG about the setting.
 
It isn't even close to supreme and if it were the QMs would still be spending the next X years in the content mines writing up seals and jutsu we don't intend to use. Making the game tolerable to run is supreme.
I don't actually think it's supreme, but I think nothing is supreme. All of these things trade off on each other. I think simulationism is a core value of the quest, and also making it tolerable to run is a core value, and they both always have been. Fun is another core value. I think the player movement towards deprioritizing "simulation" a little and prioritizing fun a little is just that, a slight shift in the overall values of the quest. No one is asking to discard simulationism and go rule of cool.
I'm frankly getting really annoyed that people keep construing it this way. No one is actually advocating for this, every single time the 'make it relevant for Hazou' tidbit has been mentioned it has always been with the caveat of "it makes sense, it's plausible, etc" IE within the bounds of a 'simulation'. As the QMs note, there are always going to be blind spots because they can't model everything, so there is going to be some flexibility on stuff they haven't ruled on yet. So long as it stays consistent and is consistent with other setting rules and worldbuilding, there is inevitably going to be some give on how they want to interpret something, and I am encouraging the authors to do so in a way that will lead to their and our maximal enjoyment.
Right, exactly this. Anything is possible and why should everything be boring by default unless there's a very good reason not to think it is. We know nothing about the Rift, it could be anything. There is no simulationism for an afterlife dimension besides that the basic facts need to align with the deep lore and what we've seen on screen so far. All of those suggestions are valid IMO.
 
People have reason to believe that going to the pure lands, the place that removes memories and by QM fiat will target practical skills first and foremost, will affect Hazo's build negatively.

Disciple of the Beyond, and our Aspect of Out-Touched Sealing Genius. We'll still have runecrafting, but we'll have lost the boost that makes us relevant to Oro and other Essies as a researcher,

@Shrooms there was once a dream of questionable canonicity, where Jashin offered to help us in the pure lands but would claim our connection to the out in return. We're not sure if this is something we are able to make an active choice about.

Edit: Or our build could be completely untouched. The dream might just be a dream. This is not my argument, I am just helping you understand why others might be cautious about suggestions that might force Hazo to enter the pure lands.

I'm frankly getting really annoyed that people keep construing it this way. No one is actually advocating for this, every single time the 'make it relevant for Hazou' tidbit has been mentioned it has always been with the caveat of "it makes sense, it's plausible, etc" IE within the bounds of a 'simulation'.
I suppose I could claim it assaults my suspension of disbelief instead.

This whole quest, this interactive experience, the very act of roleplaying itself, is about crafting an illusion and surrounding yourself with it. However manufactured it might be, the QM's part of this illusion is to present what's there as being real in some way, as existing without me rather than for me. That's what the 'simulation' means to me.

It's one thing, I suppose, to ask a question and suggest some possible answers. We are trying to learn more about the simulation, and these hypotheses don't damage our belief that it exists, just our understanding of how it exists.

But the way you suggested these things, it did not feel like playing with the illusion, like the simulation exists without us, despite us. This was not you trying to understand something that already exists, discovering some new fact about the deep illusion that surrounds us.

It felt like you were reaching out to mold it the setting into a shape more pleasing to you, and damaging the illusion in the process. Instead of asking about the way things are, wondering about what might be, you made a declaration. "Things could be this way, if you wanted it to be. If you chose it to be this way."
 
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@Paperclipped How many people does Hazo estimate he killed in this battle, per Jashin rules?
It's hard to count, given that the surroundings of the fort does not contain discrete corpses so much as areas-with-relatively-denser-gore. At least 20, almost certainly more than the bandit camp he slaughtered a year ago.

I took "loose earth" [in the context of what a Force Dome can penetrate through] to mean "earth that has been dug up and not compacted" like a pile of dirt from digging a hole

Does it mean "topsoil but not bedrock" instead? Or something else?
Sorry, that was unclear. Force Domes can go through topsoil plus some amount of subsoil.

Also can we get some FP for overcoming Deidara with our cunning plans?
Hazou has been awarded 1 FP for securing a direct assist on an Akatsuki member.

How large are Rift-unanchoring/Rift Kicking/Rift-Catching? If they're 25 substrate then I don't see how this can be true.

If that's the case, then Noburi can help him parallelize the crafting massively with SC. Even without it, does he have the chakra to craft unanchoring and kicking at the same time?

If they must be shaped on-site then he's correct that shaping is most of the work. A team (even just Sunny) would prevent him from doubling back as much and if Sunny is there she can carry the heavier blanks for him.
On further reflection, there are in fact some ways that Noburi could help Orochimaru accelerate his rift moving. He would graciously accept Noburi's help, except that Tsunade still insists that Noburi return to Leaf immediately. There's no point in Orochimaru taking two weeks to move the rift instead of a month if Leaf gets wrecked in those two weeks.

Declare (-1 FP) that while directing the Sannin to mop up with Ninja Radar, Hazou asked them to take prisoners and they subsequently made several live captures.
Sorry, this isn't a Declare we'll accept, as we've already said that there were no live captures. We don't think this is harming you too much, as the Sannin strongly expect the Jashinists to know nothing useful (and if they did know something useful, for it to be hard to extract/separate from bullshit in interrogation).
 
It felt like you were reaching out to mold it the setting into a shape more pleasing to you, and damaging the illusion in the process. Instead of asking about the way things are, wondering about what might be, you made a declaration. "Things could be this way, if you wanted it to be. If you chose it to be this way."
Everything is the way it is because the authors choose it to be that way. Part of how they choose is examining worldstates and thinking of the logical consequences that result from them. But this results in plenty of potential options.

And of course me just listing out bullet points is not going to seem as compelling and integrated as like, actual chapters dedicated to setting those things up? If I were to, say, give an example like "The QMs should just invent a really special and magical seal that only Hazou can figure out in the 7th path and hes gotta go on this huge awesome adventure to get to it so he can be the coolest and best" it's naturally going to sound like a completely horrible direction to take the story. But the journey to the Great Seal arc was dope as hell because the authors know how to integrate these things in an interesting and believable way.
 
We're playing a game. The things that happen aren't real. Any discussion of what we choose to do has to prioritize things that make a game work over things that make reality work, if only out of practical considerations. Hazo staying safe is desirable because it's practical. Hazo exploring the rift is more desirable because it makes the game not boring.
What if we can make automatons search it instead? That could be fun and safe. We can learn how to do weird stuff to plants from Orochimaru because of his rice discoveries, and we also know chakra plants can move intelligently, so- oh my god we're totally the source of lupchanzen aren't we
 
Are Shadow Clones allowed to overdraw chakra, for example if they need to use a technique? Please ignore if this is poking the worldbuilding too much.
Shadow Clones cannot overdraw chakra. Chalk it up to yet another difference between the chakra systems of SCs and regular ninja.

I have gone all posts from the end of Chapter 699 until here and compiled all QuINOA into this google document. I also left it open, so people could add other things from between Chapter 698 and Chapter 699 if they have the time. Or, if new questions get posted after this and I don't notice them.
We didn't say so at the time, but this was very helpful, thank you!

Is it possible, when using Pangolin Flash, to substitute the AB of a ninja's highest leveled lightning jutsu to multiply that by 2?
No. The phrasing in the quoted post is intentional:
When rolling a ninjutsu's level, the user may use the AB of the highest-leveled ninjutsu in its element, rather than the ninjutsu's AB.
Pangolin Flash's level isn't rolled. Instead, PF adds a bonus to a roll of Alertness. Therefore, this rule wouldn't apply.
 
What if we can make automatons search it instead? That could be fun and safe. We can learn how to do weird stuff to plants from Orochimaru because of his rice discoveries, and we also know chakra plants can move intelligently, so- oh my god we're totally the source of lupchanzen aren't we

Kagome will never forgive us at this rate.
 
It's hard to count, given that the surroundings of the fort does not contain discrete corpses so much as areas-with-relatively-denser-gore. At least 20, almost certainly more than the bandit camp he slaughtered a year ago.

I guess Lord Jashin will be happy. But they probably want us give them the Sealing Stunt, but also no sorry can do.

As Jashinists, we know exactly what Lord Jashin wants from us, and we know that doing it will earn us more of his favour, and it isn't even hard because Lord Jashin is already in our hearts and all we have to do is be true to ourselves.
"Good evening, Favoured One!"

But I am sure Hazou and Jashin can find an understanding about that.
 
Everything is the way it is because the authors choose it to be that way. Part of how they choose is examining worldstates and thinking of the logical consequences that result from them. But this results in plenty of potential options.

And of course me just listing out bullet points is not going to seem as compelling and integrated as like, actual chapters dedicated to setting those things up? If I were to, say, give an example like "The QMs should just invent a really special and magical seal that only Hazou can figure out in the 7th path and hes gotta go on this huge awesome adventure to get to it so he can be the coolest and best" it's naturally going to sound like a completely horrible direction to take the story. But the journey to the Great Seal arc was dope as hell because the authors know how to integrate these things in an interesting and believable way.
There are... a lot of arguments and counter-arguments that could be made, but I've already expressed a disinterest in arguing. I'm just trying to help you understand my own dissatisfaction with your suggestions. That's why so many of my responses are written in an 'I feel' format. Of course, other people have their own objections and I think it's important that you not lump us together (not saying that you have).

To reiterate and summarize my statements in the thread so far: I think people are biased towards exploring the rift personally due to the natural human infatuation with novelty. This is, in my opinion, unnecessary for a number of reasons. Our curiosity can be satisfied through perspective shifts, and we can interact with the challenges of the rift regardless of Hazo's physical location. I think that a lot of the entertainment value the rift will provide for the quest as a whole will be indirectly, by exploring interactions between characters and the consequences this will have on the setting, rather than by directly exploring a new location. Of course, I believe that indirectly exploring this new location is also on the table, and so I don't much feel like there is much to be lost by Hazo not going. Were the QMs to make a statement saying they would refuse to show us other perspectives of the rift, for example, I might reconsider.

I am dissatisfied with the way you presented your suggestions. Despite the very obvious truth that yes, the QMs can and will shape the world as they like, I prefer to maintain the illusion that the world already exists and we simply have yet to discover these new aspects of it.

I disagree with the nature of your suggestions. I feel like part of the charm of the simulation as we've experienced it so far is that there is no Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, or Rand Al'Thor. There is no chosen one, no hero reborn. Yes there are powerful bloodlines, but they are relatively common, we do not stand out because of some fluke of destiny around our birth. We are, or at least were, a perfectly ordinary for the setting person, and our own (SV) determination and creativity propelled Hazo to greatness. The setting does not care for Hazo, he is not special, and Hazo in turn does not much care for the setting; he has chosen to change it as much as it tries to change him. Suggestions, then, that arbitrarily increase Hazo's 'specialness' so to speak, are distasteful to me. Additionally, I believe our own ability as players to change the setting according to our will (through such suggestions) cheapens Hazo's efforts to change the setting through his own hard work (also our suggestions, but in democratic plan format!).

You are correct, however, that these suggestions laid out in bullet-point will be unattractive by nature, and that good QM writing in implementing some version of them could alleviate many of my concerns.
 
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On further reflection, there are in fact some ways that Noburi could help Orochimaru accelerate his rift moving. He would graciously accept Noburi's help, except that Tsunade still insists that Noburi return to Leaf immediately. There's no point in Orochimaru taking two weeks to move the rift instead of a month if Leaf gets wrecked in those two weeks
Pinging also @eaglejarl @Paperclipped

We can give Orochimaru chakra lift through the Seventh Path, with Noburi's Toad in Snake. He therefore has access to the Leaf chakra pipeline.

Does he have any updated timeline with that in mind? He can parallelize crafting as much as infinite chakra will allow.
Sorry, this isn't a Declare we'll accept, as we've already said that there were no live captures. We don't think this is harming you too much, as the Sannin strongly expect the Jashinists to know nothing useful (and if they did know something useful, for it to be hard to extract/separate from bullshit in interrogation).
The Jashinists/Rain ninja would know if there was another member of Akatsuki on-site, especially someone like Hidan. I do think this is important information for us and I think this is a reasonable Declare.

If you guys are firm on this, fine. But there is information of value here.
 
Sorry, this isn't a Declare we'll accept, as we've already said that there were no live captures. We don't think this is harming you too much, as the Sannin strongly expect the Jashinists to know nothing useful (and if they did know something useful, for it to be hard to extract/separate from bullshit in interrogation).
I mean we're mostly interested in which other, if any, members of the Akatsuki were on site. Any information on that front heavily alters the kind of research we need to focus on.
 
Important question: Is it possible to move the rift while it's open? This could be VERY helpful, give a ton of important information, and would be especially useful over the sea of acid or other hazardous regions. Could shift rune towards people in need of rescue instead of hoping the skywalkers don't give out and drop you
I've been thinking an ideal solution would be a dedicated rune for stabilizing a rift which is already open, which could perhaps be subject to less severe runic drag by directing those forces off into higher-dimensional space.
 
While Hazou's characterization is of an erratic person with somewhat unstable/fickle priorities, he definitely does have consistent character.
Conveniently, that character mostly overlaps with the hivemind: creative rationalist-ish munchkins with humanist ideals and broadly modern-english-world culture/economics/politics, often frustrated by the world around them.

As a result, I can't think of a previous time when we've had to make a serious decision between perusing the hivemind's apparent preference, and not seriously breaking Hazou's character.

But I can't very well picture Hazou *not* trying to save Akane, even if it means sacrificing our main buff.
Or, well, I could, but that would be a pretty big turning point in his character away from his ideals to a broken shell of a duty-bound utilitarian machine. And while Mori Ryugamine is a great character to have around and deserves massive respect, I really don't want Hazou's story to be Ryugamine's tale of sacrificing what he loves most for the greater good. I want Hazou's story to be trying to win and holding true to himself, even when that's extremely difficult.

If that means we need to win with just "normal" Runesmithing and Minatosealing, and massive political and economic power and dozens of threadgoers worth out-of-context insights and ideas, so be it. We'll cope., or perish trying.
 
Important question: Is it possible to move the rift while it's open? This could be VERY helpful, give a ton of important information, and would be especially useful over the sea of acid or other hazardous regions. Could shift rune towards people in need of rescue instead of hoping the skywalkers don't give out and drop you

Orochimaru said in a QM answer post that

The only caveat is that his rift-moving seals will put less stress on the rift if it's closed when they're operated, so you should keep the opening small.

I don't know what more stress on the rift will do, but it doesn't sound good. From my reading, it also looks like we may be able to research better rift-movers that don't cause that extra strain.
 
If there exists one reason wherein we do not save Akane, it is in cowardly fear of her reaction to Isan's fate.
Akane: Okay, this is fine. We can fix this. Bring the rift over to Isan next, they haven't been dead too long we can probably bring most of them back!

Asuma: ... I'm not the Hokage anymore so I can't order you not to do that, but don't you fucking dare.
 
The Jashinists/Rain ninja would know if there was another member of Akatsuki on-site, especially someone like Hidan. I do think this is important information for us and I think this is a reasonable Declare.

If you guys are firm on this, fine. But there is information of value here.
Also, Cannai could have sniffed around those shielded labs, which wouldn't have had their scent traces obliterated by the bombardment. Errors would certainly be possible through such a channel, but that's at least nonzero information about which akatsuki members were present recently. Freefall Archive Binge Speedreader
 
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