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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
The cap on physical skills for civilians is 10 in most cases
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Yeah that cinches it for me. The best, most skilled, most well conditioned, civilian fighter in the world would get trashed by an 12 year old genin straight out of the academy. If the genin is Tajitsu spec they could do it without spending a single CP.

Theres no way in hell there's not superhuman physiology there. To the point where I could see our hypothetical genin having far worse technique, and only winning through sheer physical superiority.

At best you could add an extra tier to the 3 tier system @Rihaku described. Somewhere between "passive durability" and "active chakra boosting durability" you could add "reflexive boosting".

Our bodies automatically regulate blood pressure on a level far below conscious awareness. To the extent that your body will adjust blood pressure in anticipation of your actions before your conscious mind even registers your intent to, say, get up off the couch. Perhaps low-level chakra boosting works in a similar way?

Perhaps Tsuande's physiology resembles something near-human if she's totally relaxed and at ease. Yet even mundane stressors would have her chakra system automatically hardening her bones until they're harder than steel?

This would work synergetically with high alertness. Someone with jonin level alertness MUST have biologically impossible reaction times.

Maybe actual neurons are being altered, or synaptic connections are constantly flooded with chakra. Maybe there's something entirely magical going on and some portion of a jonins' awareness and cognition is offloaded into their chakra coils (or even chakra itself registering an attacker's low level "hostile intent"). The details don't really matter.

As far as I'm aware, the only confirmation we have that RERs generate absolutely zero warning on target is from Hazou IC:

eaglejarl said:
A mile away, the rock with the giant '17' painted on it ceased to exist as the massive power of an explosive rune erupted in front of it with no warning
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Except Hazou was a mile away and has shit Alertness. Absent WOG to the contrary, it makes perfect sense that someone at the explosion site and w/ Jonin+ levels of Alertness might be able to notice some tiny bit of warning 50ms before the explosion actually goes off. A normal human couldn't react in that time period, but a normal human literally cannot level Alertness anywhere close to 60+.

These all together explain how how someone with jonin stat lines could conceivable survive a suprise TN100 explosion.

Yet....

A 3x RER2.0 barrage would have a min TN of 132 even if all 3 missed by 1 zone. Make that 152 if even 1 hits directly. That should most certainly kill any exposed Jonin. Probably any exposed Akatsuki.

If the fortress attenuated the explosion down to 120TN or less, I could see most of the Akatsuki each having at least an even chance of surviving.

What do you think @Buggy ?
 
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eaglejarl said:
Yup! @_The_Bomb already gave you the link to the first episode, but a quick summary:
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You flatter me greatly with the comparison, but that was actually @faflec.

Anyway, I made a graphic showing how super-cool and beefy Cannai is by showing his XP Total compared to the rest of Hazō's summons. Check it out!



When we get the CP-cost of his new summons send me a ping and I'll add those as well!
 
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
Not for long they won't.


(Sorry, Noburi. We'll resurrect/abduct your sisters latter.)
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Worth noting, resurrected Wakahisa might well turn out to be civilians. If resurrection using the Rift is directly analogous to the resurrection technique Pain used (which is not certain but does seem likely), it undoes surgical alterations (see the below on Sasori, from Oro's dossier).
Paperclipped said:
He has modified his own biology extensively. He has even dabbled in brain modification. Prior to Nagi Island, he had reduced his body to a set of chakra coils and the minimum infrastructure necessary to support them, and had thus been able to embed his "body" into any puppet he so pleased. It appears Pain's resurrection technique reset his biological body to its counterfactual unmodified state, so I do not know what bioseals he elected to create this time. I suspect he will find new optimizations he previously overlooked.
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Pain's resurrection technique clearly doesn't wipe bloodlines, so probably the Rift doesn't either (though it's worth noting that Pain's technique was shown as acting on the remains of the Akatsuki's bodies, rather than creating new ones as the Rift does). But Wakahisa don't just have a bloodline; they need surgical intervention, and if they don't get it they're stuck with civilian chakra reserves for life.
Velorien said:
"Point is, you can be born with weird Hyūga eyes, but you can't be born with your chakra system wrapped around a barrel. That's something that has to be done. The process got perfected probably centuries ago, and the hard part these days is choosing the right age to do it for each kid. The earlier you do it, the better the odds that the kid won't survive having their chakra system torn out and turned sideways, but if you wait too long, the system will stabilise and they're stuck with civilian chakra reserves for life. I was freaking terrified when it was Aya and Saya's turns.
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Putting this together, it seems to me that there is a significant risk that resurrecting Wakahisa will resurrect them in their counterfactual state of never having had the surgery, in which case they'll have civilian chakra reserves and will effectively lose their bloodline even if they still technically have it.
 
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18scsc said:
What do you think @Buggy ?
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Ninja can only be so superhumanly durable and fast. For instance, the Collapse killed a lot of Leaf's ninja, even jonin. If ninja had vastly superhuman reaction times and durability while reacting, why didn't they just notice that the ground suddenly started shifting and jump out of the building? Why did the falling debris kill them? Their steel bones and impossible muscles should have protected them and allowed them to dig out of the rubble.

Moreover, i'm fairly sure there are other instances of ninja being injured by relatively mundane means. Didn't we collapse a roof on someone back in Noodle? And they died?
 
faflec said:
It was Hot Springs and he was unconscious. Or under a genjutsu and got a MEW shoved at him into the ceiling.
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Hmm.

Wait, falling. If ninja can get bones of steel on demand, why is falling a danger? I mean yes, the sudden stop at the end injures a lot more than just bones, but so do blast waves. I would expect blast resistance to translate significantly to fall resistance; both are widespread soft tissue injury from sudden and widespread force.
 
Sir Stompy said:
If Mandaa could smash it, an RER can smash it.
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Well yes, very likely. Hopefully.

I was just talking about an example of a good Sealmaster defense that has been shown in the Quest. For regular ninja this stuff is enough to exist.

RER on the other hand should take care of most weird Sasori defenses anyway.

Most
 
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Shrooms said:
I mean, there is, but it goes beyond just making them stronger etc. Chakra also just allows them to be more accurate, precise, and quick than a typical human etc.
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Tbh it probably isn't too far off to consider chakra some kind of messed up souls build, where it lets you run around light rolling with a greathammer the size of a truck, but you also never leveled vigour at all, so die to a scratch.

In practical terms chakra seems able to compensate for itself, so your own chalra boost doesn't shatter your bones and shred you muscles. But it provides very little protection against actions by anything else. I suspect chakra is never actually reinforcing the body in question, not much at least for techniques that don't explicitly do so. Rather it is acting to counteract the otherwise fatal forces your usage of it would cause.

This is being handled subconcuoisly. If you somehow created a technique that ignored that… well, that's what a lot of suicide techniques probably are. You pushing beyond it's ability to internally compensate.
 
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Noumero said:
My reading of this line is that a ground prepared by a sealmaster is deadly for the attackers (traps, etc.), not safe for the defender.

I don't think we've ever actually seen this in action
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eaglejarl said:
Hyōmanuke waited, counting silently to himself. When he reached three hundred he charged over the hilltop, bounding down the steep sides of the swale in a skitter of disturbed earth that was too quiet to waken the idiot canine invaders. He waited until he was halfway down the hill to pull shadows around himself, trusting his compatriots to see his charge and follow. With many groups he wouldn't have done it this way, but he knew this group and they worked well together.

The steps of the leopards were too silent, their shadow protection too thorough, to give any hint of the attack. The stupid dogs didn't so much as twitch as an unstoppable avalanche of furred death rushed down upon them—

Hyōmanuke's death was so sudden he didn't even know he'd been killed. One moment he was leaping to the attack, the next he was coming apart into blood and chunks of meat small enough to be put in a stew.

His shadow cloak vanished as he died, allowing the other leopards to see what had happened. They were so shocked that, just for an instant, none of them thought to stop their charge. Two more passed through the screen of skyslicers that wrapped around the pretended canine encampment.

The remaining six leopards slammed on the brakes, struggling to turn aside or reverse course, but it was difficult to do on the steep slopes. Another passed through the invulnerable and ontologically immobile spider-silk netting and splashed into stew meat.

One leopard, luckier and stronger than the rest, leaped upwards with all her might and managed to clear the netting that she couldn't see and dropped into the middle of the 'encampment'. A short distance from the ground she passed through a shudder of chakra and saw the truth concealed by the illusion of the Scenery Clone Seal Array.

The array captured the image of an area at a given instant and projected an illusion of that image over the protected area. Hazō had captured the image of himself and the dogs asleep and helpless, then set up skyslicers around the image, after which he and the dogs trotted off (this time exercise rather more trail discipline than they had while baiting in the enemy) over the border into Dog to sleep for the night and recover chakra. They would check back in the morning to see if their trap had caught anything.

Eight.
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Kagome is the perfect example of "sealmaster prepared ground". He makes deadly traps that are hard to detect and deal massive damage. However his "prepared ground" still folded to being heavily bombarded by Tsunade, because before the glorious age of Hazou's Runic City-Sized Forcefields the best defense was a good offense. Just, you know, a stealthy offense you could layer all around for weeks without worrying about your total chakra supply like a stupid ninjutsu user.
 
Sir Stompy's Chakra Budget for the Assualt

We have 22k CP (base) and I estimate 2k (Overdraw) + 12.5k (SC Storage) for a total of 36.5k chakra to spend on the assualt.
  • First 22000 CP
    • 5 Tsunade SCs and 5 Orochimaru SCs refilled to 600 CP - SC casts are paid for elsewhere so this costs 6k CP
    • Shaping and infusion of 9 RER 2.0s split into 3 sections manned by Hazouclones with unrefilled Tsunade spotters, this costs 3.15k for the runes, the Hazou SC cast is paid for already, the Tsunade SC cast costs 550 CP, for a total of 3.7k CP
    • Additional runic infusions, and Hazou SCs to infuse the preshaped runes. Additional chakra for tunneling. I'll estimate this one cast of 6 Hazou SCs, chakra for infusions, and 1 full refill so 1 kCP
    • All the Clan Bosses, the Toad Sages, genin Summons as a screen for anti construct arrays. There are 5 Clan Bosses, Enma, Slug Boss, Cannai, Mandaa, 'Bunta, each costing about 600 CP, except 'Bunta costing 1800, the Toad Sages cost about 3000, and let's say 10 genin Summons for about 600 total. That puts us at 4.2+3+0.6= 7.8 kCP
    • Put the rest into jounin summons. We've spent 7.8+1+3.7+6=18.5, so we spend 3.5k on jounin summons, enough for about 10. There are 9 single cost, and 2 triple cost ones remaining.
  • Next 6000 CP (up to 28k)
    • Refill Kurenai clones to 300 CP, this costs 1.5 kCP
    • Refill Mari clones to 300 CP, this costs 1.5 kCP
    • Finish Summoning the jounin Summons (no additional Toads), this costs 2.7 kCP
  • Next 5000 CP (up to 33k)
    • Cast Strength of a Hundred on the Tsunade Clones, this costs 5k CP
  • If chakra still remains (at this point I estimate we have 3.5 kCP left)
  • 1) Top off the the Kurenai/Mari Clones to 450 CP, this costs 1.5 kCP
  • 2) Summon jounin Toads (this costs 1.8 kCP)
  • 3) Start Summoning chunin (Cansaku first) -- we might have literally just enough left for Cansaku...
 
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Sir Stompy said:
Sir Stompy's Chakra Budget for the Assualt

We have 22k CP (base) and infuse estimate 2k (Overdraw) + 12.5k (SC Storage) for a total of 36.5k chakra to spend on the assualt.
  • First 22000 CP
    • 5 Tsunade SCs and 5 Orochimaru SCs refilled to 600 CP - SC casts are paid for elsewhere so this costs 6k CP
    • Shaping and infusion of 9 RER 2.0s split into 3 sections manned by Hazouclones with unrefilled Tsunade spotters, this costs 3.15k for the runes, the Hazou SC cast is paid for already, the Tsunade SC cast costs 550 CP, for a total of 3.7k CP
    • Additional runic infusions, and Hazou SCs to infuse the preshaped runes. Additional chakra for tunneling. I'll estimate this one cast of 6 Hazou SCs, chakra for infusions, and 1 full refill so 1 kCP
    • All the Clan Bosses, the Toad Sages, genin Summons as a screen for anti construct arrays. There are 5 Clan Bosses, Enma, Slug Boss, Cannai, Mandaa, 'Bunta, each costing about 600 CP, except 'Bunta costing 1800, the Toad Sages cost about 3000, and let's say 10 genin Summons for about 600 total. That puts us at 4.2+3+0.6= 7.8 kCP
    • Put the rest into jounin summons. We've spent 7.8+1+3.7+6=18.5, so we spend 3.5k on jounin summons, enough for about 10. There are 9 single cost, and 2 triple cost ones remaining.
  • Next 6000 CP (up to 28k)
    • Refill Kurenai clones to 300 CP, this costs 1.5 kCP
    • Refill Mari clones to 300 CP, this costs 1.5 kCP
    • Finish Summoning the jounin Summons (no additional Toads), this costs 2.7 kCP
  • Next 5000 CP (up to 33k)
    • Cast Strength of a Hundred on the Tsunade Clones
  • If chakra still remains (at this point I estimate we have 3.5 kCP left)
  • 1) Top off the the Kurenai/Mari Clones to 450 CP, this costs 1.5 kCP
  • 2) Summon jounin Toads (this costs 1.8 kCP)
  • 3) Start Summoning chunin (Cansaku first) -- we might have literally just enough left for Cansaku...
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One thing to note, if you are planning on having a Strength of a Hundred Tsuande clone then you can massively save on SC hours elsewhere by allocating it a full 1600 CP at its initialization.

Otherwise, you're just having other people's shadow clones carry around an extra thousand chakra (per buffed Tsunade clone) for several hours only to then put it back into an existing Tsuande clone that could have been carrying it the whole time.

Has there been any sort of indication that the Strength of a Hundred buff needs to be applied immediately before the battle? If not, I recommend having at least one or two of her permanent clones be buffed with it immediately to save shadow clone hours elsewhere.
 
_The_Bomb said:
Has there been any sort of indication that the Strength of a Hundred buff needs to be applied immediately before the battle? If not, I recommend having at least one or two of her permanent clones be buffed with it immediately to save shadow clone hours elsewhere
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My baseline expectation is that it lasts minutes or less. Also, having done the math on this, it doesn't matter as much as you'd think. We don't save on casts much because people are mostly clone-hour limited.
 
Sir Stompy said:
We don't save on casts much because people are mostly clone-hour limited.
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Yes, and this would massively free up clone hours. For each Tsunade buffed, it removes 1kCP from needing to be stored in other people's shadow clones.

Sir Stompy said:
My baseline expectation is that it lasts minutes or less.
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Can we buff Tsunade's Shadow Clones with Strength of a Hundred hours in advance of the battle or does it need to happen immediately beforehand?
 
_The_Bomb said:
Yes, and this would massively free up clone hours. For each Tsunade buffed, it removes 1kCP from needing to be stored in other people's shadow clones
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You are just wrong about this.

We need to keep Tsunade's clones hours low, that means she can't make her clones very much before the battle.

Which means our capacity is almost unaffected during the time it matters most. Close to the battle we can save basically no clone casts that weren't going to happen anyway.

I did the math on this and you didn't. Unless you have some sort of evidence saying you're right I am thoroughly unconvinced.

EDIT: I think this could make a tiny difference on the order of saving ~100 CP total. So if that's what you meant by "massive difference" then uhhh sure.
 
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@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien
Hi! Quick question about an interaction between Pangolin Flash's mechanics, and the minor buff given to ninjutsu users last year. The following quotes are the pertinent lines.

Paperclipped said:
When rolling a ninjutsu's level, the user may use the AB of the highest-leveled ninjutsu in its element, rather than the ninjutsu's AB.
  • For example: Noburi attacks with Water Dragon Bullet (L30). It has an innate +AB, so would normally roll at +4 (34 total). Instead, with his Water Whip's +6 AB (L50), he would roll at +6 (36 total). If he invokes "Star of the Show", he would add another +6, and roll at +12 (42 total) rather than at +8 (38 total).
  • This doesn't affect the ninjutsu's maximum Effect, or any ninjutsu-mechanics that aren't rolling its own level (e.g. Flame Aura's bonus to other rolls is still based on its own AB, rather than the highest Fire-Element technique's AB).
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Paperclipped said:
Accordingly, we're substantially buffing Pangolin Flash – it is now a Reflexive Supplemental technique that buffs Alertness and initiative by +2*(Effect)
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Is it possible, when using Pangolin Flash, to substitute the AB of a ninja's highest leveled lightning jutsu to multiply that by 2?
 
Lysbeth Succubus said:
future humans used songs to measure spacetime distortions and adjust their course in hyperspace jumps when going FTL.
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There's also historical precedent: smiths didn't leave their work in the fire for the time it took to say three prayers to the fire god because they believed in the fire god, but because that was the right amount of time.
faflec said:
I mean that Orochimaru Prime, Tsunade Prime, Mari Prime, and Kurenai Prime will probably want to be at 600 and 450 chakra in addition to their clones.
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I expect they're going to want to be at absolutely full chakra. These are their real bodies and they want to be fully buffed with complete access to all of their abilities. They're not going to sacrifice any personal chakra for another clone or whatever.
 
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