I'm not sure it will matter too much since chakra rebalances across the network each time a clone is popped.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Rihaku
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It matters significantly if the Prime body is attacked at sub-100% chakra while their shadow clones still persist. Oro and Tsunade will probably insist on full chakra in their Prime bodies esp given the chakra cost of their stronger buffs (Strength of 100 comes to mind).
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While singing to time a FTL jump is a evocative image, I think I'd still rather use a mechanical clock if the FTL drive shuts down all electronics or something. Plus, this would spare everyone else on the engineering deck from having to listen to my singing voice.
Cariyaga
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped If I may suggest a song, perhaps Tears of Red? It's something everyone from Leaf, even Oro, would know already; Mari certainly would, and Hazou already knows it. (It's Akane's favorite.)
One thing I find annoying is when Hazou pilot fails to make basic inferences. I don't know if it happens often enough to be systematic. But here is one instance. An Action Plan had
with the result being
But Hazou failed to even try stacking Rocket Boots horizontally to prevent their destruction.
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I think the reason wasn't "Hazō is an idiot", it was that chakra adhesion simply isn't precise enough for that. Even if it were, it's simply not practical, since having the seals at different points along your foot would change the balance too much. I'm guessing we didn't write that into the update because it seemed obvious to us but I don't remember the incident so maybe not.
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Late-Game Noburi Build Suggestion
Hello and welcome to the my thoughts on what we should be aiming for in terms of Noburi's late-game build!
This is obviously not an endgame build (which will hopefully have lots of cool Sannin and Toad ninjutsu, and at the very least will raise the capstone to its pyramid cap), but it's a good place to aim for long-term. This, as I see it, as about as far as we can reasonably expect to build up his current capabilities before something throws a wrench in the works even in a best case scenario.
First off, let's talk FOOM.
Noburi now knows SC, and could theoretically pivot to an XP-maxing build. I don't recommend going that route, however, as suddenly going from a rising star in everyone's eyes to completely stagnant will cause all sorts of drama. Plus, doing that right after learning SC will raise a lot of attention on how the rest of Clan Gōketsu did the same thing back in the day and might be up to something….That said, Noburi should absolutely take advantage of the training benefits he now has available! There's a good middle ground that isn't too suspicious, fits well inside his pyramid, and still gives a decent boost to growth.
Specifically, Noburi should go for:
- Shadow Clone 30
- Resolve 49
How Hard Will Noburi Hit?
Of course, the main thing we care about is what this build means in terms of combat prowess.With a capstone stat of Water Whip 70, Noburi is going to be an absolute monster. Benefiting the RAW, he'll be supported by:
- Hōzuki's Mantle 49 ==> +17 Bonus to Melee
- Strength of the Storm 30 ==> +32 Bonus to Melee
- Reusable Rocket Boots ==> +8 Bonus to Melee
- Chakra Boost ==> (8 Base) + (ACE 4) = +12 Bonus
Water Whip 70 + 32 (SotS) + 17 (HM) + 8 (RRB) + 12 (Boost) = effWW 132
And, of course, you can invoke on that!
In comparison, Noburi's non-melee Water Dragon Barrel 52 which benefits from neither Strength of the Storm nor Hōzuki's Mantle would seem quite anemic, but it actually rolls quite high. It benefits from:
- Inherent Bonus ==> + (AB of Water Capstone) ==> +8 Bonus
- Water Journeyman ==> +¼ (Water Capstone) ==> +18 Bonus
- Chakra Boost ==> (8 Base) + (ACE 4) = +12 Bonus
Water Dragon Barrel 52 + 18 (Primary Bonus) + 8 (Inherent Bonus) + 12 (Boost) = effWDB 90
Considering this is a multi-target attack that strikes six times and is strong enough to take out jōnin, I suspect it's going to see frequent useage on the battlefield!
And that's, admittedly, without having even a single buff applied to it. If we had Great Lake Formation running, each hit would strike with an additional +8 Bonus.
How Well Will Noburi Dodge?
Unfortunately, with two of his sixty slots taken up by medical skills, Noburi's dodge is going to be lagging a fair bit behind his teammates. Except for those rare circumstances that occasionally show up in team versus team battles where Hōzuki's Mantle gives him a +25 bonus to dodge, but that's going to be quite uncommon.Even this far out, Noburi is going to be stuck with Athletics 59, though admittedly it will be bolstered by:
- Substitution 49 ==> +25 Bonus to dodge
- Strength of the Storm 30 ==> +24 Bonus to dodge
- Reusable Rocket Boots ==> +8 Bonus to dodge
- Chakra Boost ==> (8 Base) + (ACE 4) = +12 Bonus
Athletics 59 + 25 (Substitution) + 24 (SotS) + 8 (RRB) + 12 (Boost) = effATH 128
It's not so bad, but he's being carried hard by Strength of the Storm.
The Crunbum Stratagem
To my immense surprise, analysis seems to indicate that casting Shadow Clone at the start of the battle….would actually be a very powerful strategy for Noburi.It all comes down to his barrel. Instead of leaving himself dangerously low on chakra to create a few clones who are also dangerously low on chakra, both Noburi and his clones would end up with plenty in their tank.
It works like this:
Noburi | Clone 1 | Clone 2 | |
Start | 2000 | DNE | DNE |
Cast SC | 1400 | 1 | 1 |
Distribute | 602 | 400 | 400 |
And now, there are three Noburi's who can cast WDB or WW. They certainly have the chakra for it. Though, admittedly, the clones are a bit weaker on account of not getting the ACE boost bonus.
Still, to my immense surprise, this appears to be a totally valid strategy that I could actually see us using. Not all the time, but definitely in certain scenarios.
Final Thoughts
While Noburi is doing great on the combat front, his medical abilities are being left completely unexplored here. Tsunade's proved that you can use use your medical abilities in combat, and that's definitely a direction we should explore (alongside growing further into his medical abilities for their original purposes, of course.There's also a lot being left on the table in terms of Technique Hacking. It's an immense source of power for ninjutsu specialists, and an immense source powder for medical specialist (at least, if they want to recreate the cave water buff or develop ways to use their medical abilities mid-combat as Tsuande does). Noburi is both. Even if we didn't have 1000 XP of TH notes, picking up the field would be a great investment.
That's the gist of it. This is by no means the end-all-be-all of Noburi's build. Heck, you can upskill both of his main attacks just by raising their levels within their pyramids tiers. Still, I think this is a great place to start a conversation about where we want to go.
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The reason was because Paperclipped didn't infer it
Maybe it's not clear from the plan that our specific intentions were horizontal stacking. My complaint primarily isn't about the QMs failing to infer our specific intent. It's that horizontal stacking is an obvious enough idea that Hazou pilot should have tried it, even if the QMs didn't know if that specific idea was our intent.
In the alternative world where it was chakra adhesion or balance issues. I would have liked for the QMs to mention this. If not in the update, then when questioned about it. But instead Eaglejarl told me
The clones don't pay the VD malus on most jutsu so 400 is pretty good for them but Nobs being left with 600 gives him basically 200 to work with. For a jutsu spec casting jutsu at a fairly high Effect at this point, that's pretty rough. It's even more situational than it appears at first blush and I'm not entirely sure where he'd be using it.
I don't really think this counts, you're refilling the clones outside of combat. If combat has begun they're useless since they have 1 CP.
No, creating a clone automatically rebalances chakra between Prime and all clones.
My understanding is that the clones are at 400ish because they don't inherit the Vampiric Dew or ACE so they just have normal reserved for Nobs' CR, and naturally max out at that point, then Nobs has that much left over afterward.
This happens out of Noburi's natural reserves, barrel doesn't count.
Ah, my mistake then. Yeah, with that being the case your earlier assessment is accurate.
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I mostly had it in mind for when Noburi Prime was being a drainy boy, but it also works well for Water Whip. All Noburi Prime needs to spend is:
- Water Whip — 38 CP
- Hōzuki's Mantle — 150 CP
- Strength of the Storm (Effect 5) — 255 CP
Noburi | Clone 1 | Clone 2 | |
Start | 2000 | DNE | DNE |
Cast SC | 1400 | 1 | 1 |
Distribute | 702 | 350 | 350 |
Or even bring the clones to just 300. I wouldn't recommend having them cast WDB repeatedly like that, but there's plenty of valid tactics and distribution options.
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Except this isn't a combat tactic -- creating shadow clones before combat, refilling them, and then charging into battle is a standard thing. Using SC as a combat trick means casting it and the clones can actually fight. Noburi is going to have to hand them canteens of chakra water which they are then going to have to drink. Even with the canteens prepped, that's going to kill *at least* a Standard action equivalent for everyone involved.
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Looks like I was wrong. The problem wasn't that the idea fails (although I think it does), it's that we didn't think of it and you either didn't think of it but still blamed us for not thinking of it, or you didn't tell us about your idea and then blamed us for not thinking of it. Either way, not sure how this is our fault in any way.
Regardless of who thought or didn't think or talk about it before the update. After the update, when the players pointed out horizontal stacking. The QMs could have added the test as an obvious idea hazou pilot would do.
I'm not sure what you mean by blame. I don't want to get in trouble over a misunderstanding.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
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This isn't about assigning blame, this is about workshopping solutions so the mistakes of the past aren't repeated again.
In this specific example, I think it would be solved by more dialogue between QMs and players. The QM, while writing the update, could say "I've got some ideas about what to have Hazo try during testing, but it doesn't really work out for him. Do you guys have additional ideas?"
Counter-argument: That is what the action plan is for. If you want to see something specific, add it to the plan.
Counter-counter-argument: Word count limitations and plan bloat make this unappealing at best and completely unviable at worst. Open dialogue is much more flexible at dealing with whichever specific situations need to be dealt with, and shouldn't take that much more effort/time on the Qm's part, unless the thread is unresponsive or particularly argumentative. Which... is a real possibility, admittedly.
In this specific example, I think it would be solved by more dialogue between QMs and players. The QM, while writing the update, could say "I've got some ideas about what to have Hazo try during testing, but it doesn't really work out for him. Do you guys have additional ideas?"
Counter-argument: That is what the action plan is for. If you want to see something specific, add it to the plan.
Counter-counter-argument: Word count limitations and plan bloat make this unappealing at best and completely unviable at worst. Open dialogue is much more flexible at dealing with whichever specific situations need to be dealt with, and shouldn't take that much more effort/time on the Qm's part, unless the thread is unresponsive or particularly argumentative. Which... is a real possibility, admittedly.
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Yeah, it's more of an ambush tactic for the inevitable solo missions jōnin get sent on. Though, now that I think about it, by the time he gets to this level of pyramid he'll probably have some Toad summons that would fill this roll much better.
I think this is a symptom of a bigger problem, which is that we can't both keep the action plan short and concise, with a limited word count, and detail everything we want Hazou to do or try. It feels like either we keep the plan short, don't go into details, then when something like this happened we get blamed for not putting the details in the plan. But if we did put the details in the plan, for every possibilty that this happens, we would just get XP docked for the length of the plan. It's a no win scenario. We can't know what details the GMs are not going to think of, which is why in the beginning we overcompensated with too much details.
It's not that we blamed you for not thinking of it, it's that we blamed you for not letting us tell you about it. (Either in the plan or after the fact, or, as @redzonejoe suggests, during the writing of the chapter)
I'm not saying we get rid of plan word count limits, but we need to find a solution or it's going to remain a point of friction whenever something like it comes up.
It looks like Noburi could raise Ath to 60, and then to 70 right after, as the immediate next step from the pyramid you show, since he would have four 50s and two 60s. Are you just not including that in your analysis?
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Cariyaga
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I don't really blame them for either. Shrug! We knew what we were designing rocket boots for and that's what they're used for. Sneaking in a "haha actually the thing we made can be used for other things we didn't inform you of at the time" isn't super up my wheelhouse.
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We try to get Noburi Rasengan and see where this goes.
God I hope the Koi are alive and breeding.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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I'm less concerned about the koi these days. We can be less oblique about buying chakra now that Naruto's aware of it, and also we have lots of ways to get more between runecraft ideas, biosealing, and minatosealing.
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Unbelievable.
Okay, processing, breathing... Done.
A thing we've done in the past was to have the plan say "test the rocket boots" and that's a link to a separate post where you can list tests you want to do. This opens up an entire can of worms about modular plans that rapidly become overwhelming for the author so it DEFINITELY is not a standard option for all plans. In the future, if you have a situation like this, ask us if you can do that.