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Out of curiosity, did Mari also teach Haru, Shinji, or Yuno that ninjutsu?
Irrelevant to the plan, I'm just curious.
EDT: @Paperclipped @eaglejarl
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Irrelevant to the plan, I'm just curious.
EDT: @Paperclipped @eaglejarl
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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I'm extremely glad of this, too. Though I'm not sure it'll be entirely useful against the chakravores...
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NARUTO: Why the fuck did I not get this game-changing intelligence weeks ago? Any loyal leaf ninja would have passed this along the moment they got it.
HAZŌ: You…. didn't? This whole thing was transcribed by Kabuto.
NARUTO: …
HAZŌ: I figured that as a loyal leaf ninja, Kabuto would have given you this the moment it was written down.
NARUTO: …
HAZŌ: I mean, my entire family was nearly killed by the Tower for my insinuation that the Kabuto wasn't a loyal leaf ninja! We all got exiled for that. I'm not making that mistake again!
NARUTO'S FACE: [experiences a series of complicated emotions, before finally settling on mild amusement]
NARUTO: You know what, fine. Thank you for the information.
HAZŌ: You…. didn't? This whole thing was transcribed by Kabuto.
NARUTO: …
HAZŌ: I figured that as a loyal leaf ninja, Kabuto would have given you this the moment it was written down.
NARUTO: …
HAZŌ: I mean, my entire family was nearly killed by the Tower for my insinuation that the Kabuto wasn't a loyal leaf ninja! We all got exiled for that. I'm not making that mistake again!
NARUTO'S FACE: [experiences a series of complicated emotions, before finally settling on mild amusement]
NARUTO: You know what, fine. Thank you for the information.
I considered this, but found it unlikely. If strain costs of individual advantages or disadvantages can be modified by TH, that defeats the point of having advantages and disadvantages with set strain costs in the first place. Plus, in our only example of TH (Furrowed Brow of the Earth Mother), Hazō made the technique more chakra-efficient by removing a disadvantage and adding an advantage, not by changing the strain costs of preexisting attributes of the technique.
I feel the need to note that Naruto and Hazō both knew perfectly well that Kabuto was not in fact loyal, that Hazō did not in fact expect Kabuto to tell Naruto, and that Naruto can probably beat Hazō's Deceit about that fact. If we'd actually tried this, we would have been smarmily trying to hide behind the letter of the law while simultaneously reminding Naruto of the weakness of his authority (in that he doesn't control Orochimaru and by extension Kabuto). Naruto probably wouldn't have actually done anything to us, given the circumstances, but I think it would have been very likely to irritate him a lot.
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The strain cost of the multitag isn't editable, it just increases by an increasing amount for every amount of multitag(2 = +30, 3 = +60, 4 = +100, 5 = +150, 6 = +210, 7 = +280). SotS costs the right amount of strain, it just also has a disadvantage that hurts you. Disadvantages make the jutsu cheaper. Everything seems to be working as intended. Yes you can theoretically use a disadvantaged x4 multitag jutsu for the same chakra cost as a x3 multitag jutsu, but you also take damage.
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My understanding is that while it's relatively simple to make a single AB-buff ninjutsu for athletics or Taijutsu, seducing chakraAI into going further than that becomes substantially harder.
We've seen plenty of double AB buffs, but very very few triple AB buffs. Similarly, to my knowledge Strength of the Storm is the only quadruple buff that we are aware of.
That suggests to me that it is much, much harder to create a technique that offers such large bonuses. Remember, we learned that chakraAI really wants to make basic fireballs and is far less interested in making the better stuff.
If it wasn't substantially harder to make higher multi-tags, wouldn't we see a bunch of ninja running around with quintuple or sextuple AB buffs? There's certainly plenty of interest in making those techniques and countless situations where it would be well worth the additional chakra cost.
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien, does this match what Hazō was taught?
I was genuinely surprised that Naruto didn't already have a copy of this report.
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The problem is that Strength of the Storm's disadvantage only triggers if you actually use four tags on a single roll. You can use three tags per roll all you want with no penalty, but you also have the option to use four tags if you're willing to eat the backlash. That's an additional capability over multitaggable x3 that should lead to the net strain being slightly higher, somewhere between multitaggable x3 and multitaggable x4. That's why I say it's strictly better than multitaggable x3.
Sure, not arguing any of that. Why is it relevant? The point at issue is the chakra cost of the finished technique, not the difficulty in producing it.
To elaborate a bit; my understanding of how techniques are mechanically put together is that they have a number of advantages and disadvantages, as listed in their table, which have preset strain costs that determines the chakra cost of the technique. The issue I'm raising is that the combination of two attributes from one technique produces a strictly better effect than an attribute from another for the same total strain cost, which seems like a balancing error.
I suppose the fact that you can add "Chakra Efficient" as an advantage already demonstrates that this is possible, with higher TH allowing you to add that advantage when you wouldn't otherwise be able to (while keeping everything else the same). Still, it feels like the fact that this is an advantage-disadvantage pair makes it different from the advantage-advantage case of advantage+"Chakra Efficient". So I guess I see what you're saying, but this particular case still seems weird.
Really? That surprises me; did you expect Kabuto to have submitted it to the Tower (as you're suggesting that Hazō claim to have believed), or did you think Oro would have given the dossier to the Tower already (which I admit seems more reasonable)? (Or, did you think Hazōpilot would have autonomously submitted the dossier himself?)
(Not trying to criticize, just want to understand your thought process here!)
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No, @Kyreneryk is correct. It is strictly better to be able to use a triple tag at no cost and also have the option of using a quadruple cost that does recoil damage than it is to be able to use a triple tag at no cost.
The chakra cost is the same, so the former is strictly better than the latter. Therefore I assume the former to be harder to create than the latter, otherwise we would only see the former.
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I just don't think jutsu design is this finely grained, sure one is advantagous, but does that necessarily translate to increased chakra cost? Clearly there is a great deal of difference in usefulness between jutsu that is not correctly captured by chakra cost.
It being harder to TH 4x multitag seems like sufficient reason for why it's not more common. That's good enough for me.
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@faflec @eaglejarl @Velorien
A couple of questions.
- How old is Itachi right now?
- How old was Itachi when he graduate the academy?
- How old was Itachi when he massacred the clan?
- Was Itachi ever involved in a World War (or would have otherwise done something that would repeatedly unstagnated him) while a part of Konoha, to Hazō's knowledge?
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Well yes, a multi-tag 4 advantage should be strictly better than a multi-tag 3 advantage. That should be balanced by the fact that the 4x is harder to create with TH. Sure, it is only a conditional disadvantage, but that's not exactly unique. Look at Earth Rend, for example. There is a conditional attack malus when you attack above-ground targets, but you get the chakra cost reduction even if you attack underground targets.
| Advantage | Conditional attack bonus: +AB | +20 |
| Disadvantage | Conditional attack malus: -AB | -30 |
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- Around 25; he's 9 years older than Sasuke, who shares an age with Naruto (age 16).
- Age 10.
- Age 17.
- Unlikely to a world war (3rd ninja war was when Itachi was ~5), but he did a lot of lore hunting, so I feel he got a ton of unstagnation.
- ???
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Combination of those factors suggests a plausibly safe way to use summons against the chakravores: simply summon a ranged jutsu user, then have them hit the relevant chakra-devouring AoE with gobs of nature chakra in the form of inanimate chakra-construct projectiles.
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Thank you!!!
Question five was a mistype while adjusting question 4.
Itachi is 27, born in the year of 1045 AS. He graduated the Academy two years early, in 1055, and slaughtered the Uchiha at age 17, in 1062. No chance of Itachi being involved in a war, though he might've participated in WW4 and nobody ever told us.
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Huh. Wow, I honestly didn't think about how we were like 12-13 at the start of the quest.
Hopefully expressing myself more clearly this time; my impression has been that chakra costs are intended to be largely independent of TH skill, with the exception of the Chakra-Efficient bonus (which is listed in technique tables as "Special (TH)", implying that it's an exception to the rule). That is, you do TH for advantages and disadvantages, and then at the end the chakra cost is calculated from those, but all possible combinations of advantages and disadvantages should produce well-behaved chakra costs, excluding from consideration the exceptional bonus that is Chakra-Efficient. Minimally, that should mean that a set of advantages and disadvantages that produces a strictly superior effect should cost more chakra, unless there are other factors like a difference in elements that explain the difference. So it shouldn't matter that the 4x+backlash is harder to TH than the 3x, because TH shouldn't be manipulating chakra costs of techniques except by the addition of the Chakra-Efficient advantage (or the removal of the Chakra-Intensive flaw).
This impression may be inaccurate. However, I think that if your technique design system is not well-behaved in this way, you risk opening yourself up to really weird design inconsistencies, and from a simulationist perspective, if chakra costs meaningfully correspond to anything it doesn't make sense for x4+backlash-at-4 to cost the same as x3. We don't know how techniques work, but you might imagine that multitaggable x3 requires certain chakra structures; a technique that can produce the effect of multitaggable x3 ought, one might assume, to require the same chakra structures, but it also needs more on top of that because it needs to be able to produce multitaggable x4, even if it produces backlash in doing so.
Actually, I think the "what's actually going on underneath" argument is the key point here. It seems like a reasonable assumption that advantages make your technique cost more because they require it to do more stuff, and disadvantages make your technique cost less becuse they mean it has to do less stuff. Take Earth Rend; the above-ground attack malus should make it cost less because it means the technique doesn't have to invest as much effort in manipulating earth above ground. If this is the case, the amount by which the technique's cost is reduced ought in some way to be proportional to how much less stuff it needs to do; in which case, a disadvantage that leaves the technique fully capable of all the effects of multitaggable x3 plus multitaggable-x4-with-downside ought to make the technique have to be doing more stuff than a technique that only does multitaggable x3, and so the technique ought to cost more.
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You can require stunts as a disadvantage (e.g. Whirlwind Barrier requiring Wind Element Journeyman), which makes narrative sense; you get more efficient chakra use, but it requires pre-existing skill in the appropriate chakra manipulations. To someone who has the stunt, such a technique could be strictly better than another that doesn't require the stunt.
Otherwise my expectation is that no, no matter how high your TH gets, you're not going to be able to make a strictly better Fire Bullet (assuming you've already applied Efficient Chakra Manipulation). Maybe if you're Hiruzen you can get "Hyper-Efficient Chakra Manipulation" or something.
(Of course, I could be wrong; but what I've described above is what I currently predict will be the answer to this question, at maybe 70-80% confidence. It'll be interesting to find out more once we get enough TH to actually start making things!)
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tl;dr Mari is 26-27 years old.
- Mari killed her uncle 9-10 years before 11/11/1068. This translates to 1058-1059.
- Mari killed her uncle when she was Hazou's age. Hazou was, at the time of the conversation, 14.
- Mari's birthday was sometime around 1044-1045.
- Today, 1071 AS, Mari is 26-27 years old.
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Also pinging @eaglejarl @Paperclipped Was this retcon'd? This is something that seems to conflict with Ryugamine's interlude on Yagura's rise to power.
Yup, another thing to note is that she accidentally slipped her age when talking with Naruto.
If she was ten years old when Naruto was born, that would put her birthday solidly in 1044. Meaning she's 27!
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Oh wow, she actually slipped. I thought she was doing that deliberately as a social ploy.
I think this was maybe indicative of the social combat going on behind the blinders? No dice were seemingly rolled, but the line implies Naruto's repartee caught Mari more flatfooted than usual, and maybe he social chops were doing well? Of course, this is all before he folded before Itachi, but you know what they say about Hokages