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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Black King said:
Hazou got real angry/kill-happy when he thought Leaf was keeping Iron Nerve people locked up in a basement somewhere.
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Initial emotional reactions are not someone's character. What you do is your character.
Black King said:
He also suggested stuff like poisoning water supplies against the Rock (village, not the wrestler).
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To get the war over with quickly, yeah.
Black King said:
He was pretty gleeful to kill the Hyena once they attacked him
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"I'm happy those who assaulted me when I offered peace relatedly" isn't bloodlust.
Black King said:
was fine burning half of Cat's fields when they stopped his movement,
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Any chakra-capable individual who died to a forest fire is pretty pathetic and the fate of the world was in the balance.
Black King said:
was pretty antagonistic to that one Pangolin nepo-baby etc.
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Again, words aren't actions. He provoked someone for political gain.

Regardless, I'm going to be pushing for a more compassionate Hazo and this is the start.
 
Some ES science ideas:
1. Making better lens via making pure Sio2 glass. (Not mine)
2. Mass fabrication of useful metal items from a big bar of metal.
3. Making knives sharper by using earthshaping to refine the edges and making the edges denser.
4. Comparing densified standard ninja equipment to standard (+weapon?).
5. Seeing if densified SiO2 glass is strong enough to replace metal as a cheap? alternative. Does it hold an edge longer?
6. Seeing if he can make diamonds or other gems. Flawless densified diamond any good?
7. Deciding if someone with a lower es score could work material (such as densified SiO2)once it is purified
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Initial emotional reactions are not someone's character. What you do is your character.
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...what he did was attack people. He just was too weak to do anything.

FaintlySorcerous said:
To get the war over with quickly, yeah.
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This is not "full of love and compassion." Poisoning water is generally malevolent on a high level.

FaintlySorcerous said:
"I'm happy those who assaulted me when I offered peace relatedly" isn't bloodlust.
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Difference between killing someone and killing them with happiness. It kinda goes against the "full of love and compassion for enemies" thing you said earlier. That person would be less gleeful, more dutiful, and even sad they had to do it.

FaintlySorcerous said:
Any chakra-capable individual who died to a forest fire is pretty pathetic and the fate of the world was in the balance.
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And yet it is very antagonistic and malicious. The opposite of your description of Hazou and in line with his anger towards the Hagoromo.

FaintlySorcerous said:
Again, words aren't actions. He provoked someone for political gain.
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He also beat them up. Physically. And taunted them.

All of these are quite literally the opposite of "a boundless well of love and compassion for his enemies".

FaintlySorcerous said:
Regardless, I'm going to be pushing for a more compassionate Hazo and this is the start.
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That's fine (and makes me wanna throw up), but I'm just clearing up the misguided statement that Hazou being vindictive and retaliatory is somehow new for him. It's not. It's what he's done time and time again.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
What else do you have in mind?
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Taking a stance towards the Hagoromo which is non-antagonistic.

Specifically, I want to treat individual Hagoromo as individual people, the same as we'd treat any other shinobi or civilian. When dealing with the Hagoromo, I'd like our approach to reflect that we have overlapping goals - a happy, prosperous Leaf - but that a decent chunk of their vision of what that looks like is deeply warped by irrational hatred, and so is a lot of their methodology. Our goal in interacting with them should be pro-social - chiefly, corrupting them towards the light with reason and understanding instead of trying to cast them out from Leaf at large.

We're literally just right about a lot of this stuff and there are more moderate voices in the Hagoromo. The wheels of social progress with crush them just fine without our help. Trying to accelerate that process will just make them dig their heels in harder as well as attracting Asuma's ire.

Actually fuck it I'm just going to directly link to Clementine Morrigan, who says cool things on this topic and other topics. (Note that she is not religious; 12-step programs apparently don't require that you accept Jesus or whatever, which I didn't know before I started reading her.) I am not about to co-sign Hagoromo bullshit but if you think that attacking them accomplishes anything then I don't know what quest you've been reading but it sure hasn't worked so far.

(Please also note that if you (not you @Dictator4Hire, you-the-person-reading-this) think some people are disposable, deserve to die/rot in jail, etc. etc., I find your perspective/system of morals honestly just sad.)

I want to make it painfully clear to anyone and everyone that the policies of the Goketsu are welcoming, kind, good for Leaf, and fueled by the same deep love and respect for life that is the Will of Fire. I want to work against bad policy but I want to do it by establishing alliances and building consensus with people with whom we're ideologically aligned. I want to take the high road to achieving our humanist mission, not because of some frou-frou morality, but because I genuinely think it's the only way to get there and make it stick. The easiest, fastest, cheapest, most efficient way to do anything is properly the first time.
 
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faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Building a Better World
Word Count: ???
  • Sanity check with Mari.
  • Asuma:
    • Ruka:
      • Clarification: Is her punishment for her missteps, or mostly Akane?
      • If it's mostly Akane...indefinite exile seems harsh. It's effectively a death sentence.
      • The hate must stop somewhere. We're asking, as a clan head and aggrieved party, for you to exercise leniency.
      • Maybe change it to something else - Long-term mandatory work (till n' fills?) alongside KEI ninja? Like you said, hatred/contempt rarely survives prolonged exposure.
    • Reconciliation:
      • You're right that having Goketsu and Hagoromo work together may help break the cycle. Noburi and Neji may not be the best of friends, but they've settled into a respectful rivalry since they first met. A lot of that has to do with how they've been made to interact with each other, especially cooperatively. As for what else could be done...
      • Put Goketsu and Hagoromo ninja together on long-term Till'n'Fills requiring multiple people. Make the mission something that both parties needto contribute cooperatively to succeed.
        • Let a neutral third party lead the mission (Sarutobi? Aburame?).
        • Missions get done (check), clan members are pushed to interact cooperatively during the mission (check), both sides get to see each other as people (check check check)...
      • Arrange for game nights for clan ninja or civilians, and 'coincidentally' make Goketsu and Hagoromo pair off together.
        • We're not sure if inviting them to our compound would make them comfortable, given everything (and vice versa). Are there neutral places where this could take place?
  • Cannai:
    • Cannai, Akane died.
    • We aren't handling it well.
      • In our grief, we've been lashing out.
      • We've insulted our friends, our pack, and even our Alpha.
      • We aren't being the leader they need us to be.
    • Tell him the full story (keep OPSEC)
      • Include our emotions throughout
        • Stay honest, even when it hurts.
        • Don't push any of it on to him.
      • Point out how awesome Canvass was and thank him for his recomendation.
    • Ask for advice
    • Spend some time lying together, grieving.
  • EarthShaping (with Cannai)
    • (Get Asuma's permission first)
    • Unfortunately, we still need to stop the world ending.
    • We found a jutsu that might be key...
      • We can't sense enough of what's really going on, but you probably could.
      • Would you help us?
    • Before casting, explain Earthshaping in full detail
      • We've seen a Clan Boss claim land
      • Cannai, bits of your soul reside in the earth we'd shape
      • Could this hurt you? The land?
      • (jokingly) We really don't want to accidentally challenge you.
    • If Cannai is still willing:
      • Ask for more details on the connection he shares with his land
      • Under his observation, use Earthshaping
      • Have Cannai narrate what he can sense and go through everything Hazō is capable of
    • Cannai, this jutsu is... different from others
      • It's creation, not destruction.
      • The chakra wants something
      • Do you know anything?
    • Test novel experiments, but return to Human Path before doing anything with sealing
  • Offscreen:
    • Send someone to get scent markers for Canvass' investigation. Enlist Inuzuka aid (?).
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@faflec here are some expanded sections on grieving with Cannai and EarthShaping

It needs signficant word trimming, but I got everything core in there.
  • Cannai:
    • Cannai, Akane died.
    • We aren't handling it well.
      • In our grief, we've been lashing out.
      • We've insulted our friends, our pack, and even our Alpha.
      • We aren't being the leader they need us to be.
    • Tell him the full story (keep OPSEC)
      • Include our emotions throughout
        • Stay honest, even when it hurts.
        • Don't push any of it on to him.
      • Point out how awesome Canvass was and thank him for his recomendation.
    • Ask for advice
    • Spend some time lying together, grieving.
  • EarthShaping (with Cannai)
    • (Get Asuma's permission first)
    • Unfortunately, we still need to stop the world ending.
    • We found a jutsu that might be key...
      • We can't sense enough of what's really going on, but you probably could.
      • Would you help us?
    • Before casting, explain Earthshaping in full detail
      • We've seen a Clan Boss claim land
      • Cannai, bits of your soul reside in the earth we'd shape
      • Could this hurt you? The land?
      • (jokingly) We really don't want to accidentally challenge you.
    • If Cannai is still willing:
      • Ask for more details on the connection he shares with his land
      • Under his observation, use Earthshaping
      • Have Cannai narrate what he can sense and go through everything Hazō is capable of
    • Cannai, this jutsu is... different from others
      • It's creation, not destruction.
      • The chakra wants something
      • Do you know anything?
    • Test novel experiments, but return to Human Path before doing anything with sealing
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Wordcount: 207
[X] [Science] Responsible Revolution
  • Optimize plans with Kei/Mari first
  • Inform Asuma that we intend to test another novel jutsu application, in the hopes of figuring out 3D Sealing. We expect no danger, but will be taking full precautions anyways
  • Take full precautions
  • Test 1: metal production
    • (With Cannai, with permission)
    • Buy some raw ores (copper, tin, lead, silver, gold, etc.) and attempt to extract the metal with ES
    • Cast MARI at 5 meter length. Attempt to Earthshape all the metal out of the granite.
    • How much did we get? Is it true metal or just ore? How pure is it? What kinds of metals did we find?
  • Test 2: 3D Sealing
    • (On Human Path)
    • Test every substance you have that Earthshaping can affect
    • Make it as pure as possible and attempt the creation of a trivial seal
    • If it works, continue testing other materials with the aim of finding the most useful and accessible substrate
  • Test 3: Miscellaneous (where applicable)
    • Can we make better lenses out of pure SiO2?
    • If we compress SiO2, does it compare with weapons-grade metal?
    • En masse fabrication of metal items?
    • Can we make sharper kunai (with compressed blades?)
    • Is a kunai made of compressed metal stronger than regular kunai?
    • Can we compress coal into diamonds?

There's more that might follow up from these experiments, like what we do if the metal production experiment works and we suddenly have the means to crash Leaf's iron market, but in the interest of keeping this a Science! plan I'm sticking to just the experiments.

Per QM instructions, if you want to see this science added to your plan simply provide a link to this post within your own plan.
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Added a bunch of miscellaneous tests into the Science plan, as well as a few other ideas that have cropped up over the course of the day. If anything's objectionable, make sure to let me know.

One thing I'm still not sure on is what to say (if anything) about the Honey Cave crystal. Thoughts?
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Added a bunch of miscellaneous tests into the Science plan, as well as a few other ideas that have cropped up over the course of the day. If anything's objectionable, make sure to let me know.

One thing I'm still not sure on is what to say (if anything) about the Honey Cave crystal. Thoughts?
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Get permission from Asuma to use Earthshaping with Cannai.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Why?

Like why would he need permission? And why do this at all? ES is something of a solitary activity.
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We need permission because we were ordered not to share Leaf Jutsu with the dogs without his permission. He'll instantly grant it in this case, but we still have to ask.

As for why…
_The_Bomb said:
EarthShaping (with Cannai)
  • (Get Asuma's permission first)
  • Unfortunately, we still need to stop the world ending.
  • We found a jutsu that might be key...
    • We can't sense enough of what's really going on, but you probably could.
    • Would you help us?
  • Before casting, explain Earthshaping in full detail
    • We've seen a Clan Boss claim land
    • Cannai, bits of your soul reside in the earth we'd shape
    • Could this hurt you? The land?
    • (jokingly) We really don't want to accidentally challenge you.
  • If Cannai is still willing:
    • Ask for more details on the connection he shares with his land
    • Under his observation, use Earthshaping
    • Have Cannai narrate what he can sense and go through everything Hazō is capable of
  • Cannai, this jutsu is... different from others
    • It's creation, not destruction.
    • The chakra wants something
    • Do you know anything?
  • Test novel experiments, but return to Human Path before doing anything with sealing
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TLDR Cannai has crazy boss senses and can watch lighting slowly arc to the ground. On top of that, he has Boss senses and a deep connection to the land, which has bits of his souls in it. He'll be able to see very clearly what's we're doing to the land as we Earthshape it.

With his aid, we can learn a lot about EarthShaping. Perhaps even things we wouldn't ever been able to learn otherwise, no matter how high we level it! Enma was pretty clear that Hazō would never be able to sense the land like this, after all. Maybe @eaglejarl will even give us a stunt for this or reveal deeper mechanics a bit earlier than he expected, if we find the right things.

Of course, we don't know nearly enough about a boss's connection to the land to know if this is a brilliant idea, stupid, or apocalyptically dangerous. Fortunately, Cannai does! For once we're actually consulting with the experts ahead of time.
 
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Copied from discord for @faflec 's plan
My thoughts on this plan are:
- I think Cannai grieving scene should be at the top at the highest priority, and should precede other conversations. A Cannai scene makes it possible for Hazou's mood to improve so that he can do the rest of what's listed in the plan. As is, the current Hazoupilot doesn't seem like he can consider these points.
Is it possible to add bullet points for reflection for Hazou's own behaviour recently after his loss of Akane?
Just identifying his own behaviour will be helpful.
EDIT: Bomb added a great breakdown for a conversation with Cannai

- I think the first two bullet points from Ruka could be safely removed.
- I think it would be OK to add as non-damaging a variant as we could find for "Live up to Akane's example" - whatever generates positive emotion alongside the grief. That could precede "the hate must end". That's a line that can also be interpreted negatively if Hazou internally doubts his ability to do so, I suppose.
- There is a request for leniency from Hazou the Clan Head and Hazou the Aggrieved Party. The latter makes sense if he's trying to live up to Akane's example. Why does Hazou the Clan Head want leniency? To make it easier for the Clans to get along? I don't believe Hazou the Clan Head cares for that rn. Might I suggest removing the Clan Head section and leaving it as "asking as the aggrieved party"?
- Reconciliation section: I like the idea of doing till and fills together and believe that will yield results. My gut instinct was to disagree with doing game nights together, but after contemplating it for a minute, I agree that it's a fair idea that would create more good than harm. The "coincidental pairing" is fine too, imo.

_The_Bomb said:
Cannai:
  • Cannai, Akane died.
  • We aren't handling it well.
    • In our grief, we've been lashing out.
    • We've insulted our friends, our pack, and even our Alpha.
    • We aren't being the leader they need us to be.
  • Tell him the full story (keep OPSEC)
    • Include our emotions throughout
      • Stay honest, even when it hurts.
      • Don't push any of it on to him.
    • Point out how awesome Canvass was and thank him for his recomendation.
  • Ask for advice
  • Spend some time lying together, grieving.
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I like this a lot!
I would not emphasize the Alpha section, as Asuma is not as important to us as Cannai is to the dog clan. To "our leader" or "the Hokage" is probably fine (that is to say, no italics required for emphasis on that section). Everything else reads great to me!

I would love to have this added to Faflec's plan, with the grieve section moved upwards to the top.
I don't think there's enough room for "Cannai - Grieve", "Cannai - ES" and "Asuma - Reconcilliation talk with Hagoromo", though.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Yeah, I think so too, but I'm just not sure what. If we can't think of anything I'll probably just put something like "fiddle around with the Honey Cave crystal" in there and see what shakes out.
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I'd be interested in seeing if it had any effect on earth jutsu if cast while held. I'd imagine no but idk maybe the earth energy of the crystal does something funky if you use it as a sort of focus.
 
Black King said:
Have to disagree. Hazou's entire life philosophy is in conflict with...every ninja, which includes the Leaf. They might become enemies one day if they decide Hazou's taking Uplift too far. Sharing with them our secrets makes almost no sense. You said later in a trade, but I don't think they have anything to trade, because they too, don't want to give up clan secrets.
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Do you expect us to use combat seals against Shikamaru's or Ino's family soon enough for it to still be relevant as a combat trump? Like, before we resurrect Jiraiya? Or become S-ran through FOOM? In this scenario, does Kei betray Uplift or her own husband? Do we send our girlfriend to visit our other girlfriend in the afterlife?
Or are you envisioning a future where the next generation after Hazō's death or retirement is still pursuing Uplift in a way where ISC opposition is a relevant problem?

Let me speak clearly. Right now I have a higher probability on Akane's killers reverse engineering our seals and attacking our Leaf allies with them than I have on the original Team Uplift going missing-nin or otherwise finding themselves in opposition to Leaf. And Shikamaru, being neither stupid nor unfair, should be willing to trade something of value.

Oneiros said:
We have actively and repeatedly tried to trade for jutsu and we have gotten exactly zero from other clans. It's just not an actual thing
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My understanding was that this was due to our reputation. Maybe I misremember or misunderstood, but didn't the QMs explicitly talk about jutsu trade between Clan Heads?

Anyway, I am talking about sharing the capabilities of our seals, not the seals themselves.
 
@Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped

1. Mari was on the verge of dissolving the merchant council a while ago. Did that come to fruition?
2. How much of a pain/spoon cost is it for you when we check the difficulty of a seal? Is their any way to make it easier for you? There's a bunch of seals I would like to check the difficulty of but there is concern that it would be not be a nice thing to do.
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
Taking a stance towards the Hagoromo which is non-antagonistic.

Specifically, I want to treat individual Hagoromo as individual people, the same as we'd treat any other shinobi or civilian. When dealing with the Hagoromo, I'd like our approach to reflect that we have overlapping goals - a happy, prosperous Leaf - but that a decent chunk of their vision of what that looks like is deeply warped by irrational hatred, and so is a lot of their methodology. Our goal in interacting with them should be pro-social - chiefly, corrupting them towards the light with reason and understanding instead of trying to cast them out from Leaf at large.

We're literally just right about a lot of this stuff and there are more moderate voices in the Hagoromo. The wheels of social progress with crush them just fine without our help. Trying to accelerate that process will just make them dig their heels in harder as well as attracting Asuma's ire.

Actually fuck it I'm just going to directly link to Clementine Morrigan, who says cool things on this topic and other topics. (Note that she is not religious; 12-step programs apparently don't require that you accept Jesus or whatever, which I didn't know before I started reading her.) I am not about to co-sign Hagoromo bullshit but if you think that attacking them accomplishes anything then I don't know what quest you've been reading but it sure hasn't worked so far.

(Please also note that if you (not you @Dictator4Hire, you-the-person-reading-this) think some people are disposable, deserve to die/rot in jail, etc. etc., I find your perspective/system of morals honestly just sad.)

I want to make it painfully clear to anyone and everyone that the policies of the Goketsu are welcoming, kind, good for Leaf, and fueled by the same deep love and respect for life that is the Will of Fire. I want to work against bad policy but I want to do it by establishing alliances and building consensus with people with whom we're ideologically aligned. I want to take the high road to achieving our humanist mission, not because of some frou-frou morality, but because I genuinely think it's the only way to get there and make it stick. The easiest, fastest, cheapest, most efficient way to do anything is properly the first time.
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I worry that most people confuse taking the high road to allowing themselves to be abused.
I am skeptical of giving second chances to a previously hostile group when psychopaths and idiots exist, let alone mesh them in my projects and give them further opportunities to abuse our trust.
I would say either leave Leaf, or remove the Hagoromo from being able to further sabotage the Goketsu. The only way to make sure of the second option is genocide, which I do not condone.
As for morals, they're nice to have, but also a luxury. I'm all for proportional swift impartial justice and criminal rehabilitation in real life, but see it as an incredibly difficult and time consuming thing to achieve within Leaf.
 
Gev said:
I worry that most people confuse taking the high road to allowing themselves to be abused.
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I agree that this is often what people think. It's not what I want us to do - see, not co-signing anyone's bullshit. But there's a line between not getting walked on and needlessly destroying your opponent's treasured heirloom.
Gev said:
I am skeptical of giving second chances to a previously hostile group when psychopaths and idiots exist, let alone mesh them in my projects and give them further opportunities to abuse our trust.
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Sure; again, I'm not suggesting we do anything unless we have our eyes fully open. We can and should live in reality, but we can do that while taking the high road.
Gev said:
I would say either leave Leaf, or remove the Hagoromo from being able to further sabotage the Goketsu. The only way to make sure of the second option is genocide, which I do not condone.
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Preventing the Hagoromo from being able to impact us at all is not achievable on timescales we're going to find acceptable. Preventing the Hagoromo from being able to appreciably impact us is something I think is best left to Asuma. Presently, he's recognized Hagoromo aggression and censured them by way of levelling an audit. The economic and social impact of a complete audit of their Tower employees is significant.

Actually, @eaglejarl, does Hazo have any perspective as to how big a deal that is? (Pinging you because you wrote that update.)
Gev said:
As for morals, they're nice to have, but also a luxury. I'm all for proportional swift impartial justice and criminal rehabilitation in real life, but see it as an incredibly difficult and time consuming thing to achieve within Leaf.
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The point of the quest is that we're acting in line with our morals. Uplift is a moral position. Do you view it as a luxury? What do you view as essential, short of our continued survival and that of our loved ones?

(I'll perhaps preemptively note that there is no evidence it is likelier than not that the Hagoromo had anything to do with the fact that Akane's safety was compromised or to suppose that they will pose such a treat going forward. If continued safety etc. is the only thing you put above our morals, there's no reason to compromise our morals to go after the Hags.)
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Taking a stance towards the Hagoromo which is non-antagonistic.

Specifically, I want to treat individual Hagoromo as individual people, the same as we'd treat any other shinobi or civilian. When dealing with the Hagoromo, I'd like our approach to reflect that we have overlapping goals - a happy, prosperous Leaf - but that a decent chunk of their vision of what that looks like is deeply warped by irrational hatred, and so is a lot of their methodology. Our goal in interacting with them should be pro-social - chiefly, corrupting them towards the light with reason and understanding instead of trying to cast them out from Leaf at large.

We're literally just right about a lot of this stuff and there are more moderate voices in the Hagoromo. The wheels of social progress with crush them just fine without our help. Trying to accelerate that process will just make them dig their heels in harder as well as attracting Asuma's ire.
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I like this.

(Well, I do think it's worth the effort of leading them into a social trap so Asuma gets mad at them instead of us, but I digress.)

FaintlySorcerous said:
Actually fuck it I'm just going to directly link to Clementine Morrigan, who says cool things on this topic and other topics. (Note that she is not religious; 12-step programs apparently don't require that you accept Jesus or whatever, which I didn't know before I started reading her.) I am not about to co-sign Hagoromo bullshit but if you think that attacking them accomplishes anything then I don't know what quest you've been reading but it sure hasn't worked so far.

(Please also note that if you (not you @Dictator4Hire, you-the-person-reading-this) think some people are disposable, deserve to die/rot in jail, etc. etc., I find your perspective/system of morals honestly just sad.)
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I don't like this.

Tone matters.

FaintlySorcerous said:
I want to make it painfully clear to anyone and everyone that the policies of the Goketsu are welcoming, kind, good for Leaf, and fueled by the same deep love and respect for life that is the Will of Fire. I want to work against bad policy but I want to do it by establishing alliances and building consensus with people with whom we're ideologically aligned. I want to take the high road to achieving our humanist mission, not because of some frou-frou morality, but because I genuinely think it's the only way to get there and make it stick. The easiest, fastest, cheapest, most efficient way to do anything is properly the first time.
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I wholeheartedly agree with this; Uplift cannot come about through unjust means if it is to endure the test of time. We need a movement not just a manifesto. Combining the Will of Fire and Uplift to better utilize Leaf's resources for our goals is the simplest and most efficient solution to building an international power base (I don't think we would survive challenging Ami for leadership of AMITY).
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Yeah, I think so too, but I'm just not sure what. If we can't think of anything I'll probably just put something like "fiddle around with the Honey Cave crystal" in there and see what shakes out.
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It seemed like Hazo could identify what was in an ES sample by taking some time with it. Might be helpful to know if the physical material is anything special, or if its the structure, or something chakra related. Or it's just crystal, I suppose.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
I don't like this.

Tone matters.
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Fair enough.

I'm admittedly a little frustrated with some of the attitudes I see in the thread and that's bleeding over.

Simultaneously, I'm not going to act like people hold beliefs/advocate actions which conflict with the principles that all life matters and we should avoid hurting other sentient beings beyond necessity are...I don't know. That their beliefs are somehow worthy of significant consideration? 'All life has inherent value' and 'don't make anyone suffer except to prevent more suffering, and be darn sure that you're minimizing the suffering you're inflicting' are negotiable concepts. It upsets me that Hazo's characterization is not aligned with those ideas, and it's deeply distressing verging on a little scary that the thread might be the reason.
 
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ProperAttorney said:
Phosphorus pentoxide
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Fun facts, phosphorus pentoxide absorbs water from the air and turns into concentrated phosphoric acid. It's what makes it a useful dehydrating agent.

And also an effective macerator payload

EDIT: "It may cause severe burns to the eye, skin, mucous membrane, and respiratory tract even at concentrations as low as 1 mg/m3"

From the MSDS. I think we can do somewhat higher concentrations than that.
 
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